Beware of 'democracy trap': Prayut

[Alwyn]

Freedom on speech and especially freedom of the press are the very pillars of democracy; you cannot have such without them and Prayut has suppressed both.

Now maybe people will start to see the true nature of the beast for the beast is a coup leader that clearly has no idea what democracy is or how to achieve it. New boss ... same as the old boss ... it's allow about power for him and his buddies and he'll do anything to cling on to power and as he said ... if you don't like it then leave.

The first thing that Thailand needs to do is to enforce the criminal act of treason, try Prayut and then lock him up for life.

He talks about there being no such thing as 100% democracy and I fully agree but under his regime there is 0% as no dictator permits the voices of the people to be heard.

Who is going to be elected? A political party or person of his choice so that it fits in with his ideology of allowing the elite to continue to rule and suppress the people of Thailand? Didn't he make that clear with the statement ... As for the option of allowing a non-MP to become prime minister, he said this might be necessary to break a future political impasse. However, he denied this clause was part of a scheme to let some figures close to the current administration take over.

What Prayut will ultimately achieve is a wider division in Thai society and as the division grows ever wider the path to civil war becomes more and more probable ... of course that matters not to the elites, they'll fly out on their private jets and wait until the carnage is over and hope to regain power once again after the ordinary Thai and killed his fellow countrymen.

The sooner Prayut is removed the sooner you'll have a chance at democracy but the new gov will need to send a strong message that a coup will no longer be tolerated and the only way to do that is to try Prayut for treason.

100% with you on everything you say, Suthep needs locking up too.

[Alwyn]

as I have already stated on previous threads, this non elected PM thing is being blown out of all proportion, it is a clause for emergencies only - nobody is going to install a PM by force after an election, the PM will be selected just exactly the way it has been in the past - with a vote in the lower house once a government is formed.

If anything it is a clause that will avoid the never ending cycle of coups that have plagued this country for years, lets not forget that there are powerful laws and bodies being introduced to combat corruption and it may be that a future PM or a government could be completely removed from office for gross misconduct corruption and/or power abuse a good example being the last PTP government ! which additionally was also (as we all know) headed by a criminal on the run living abroad - how Ludacris was that - no democratic civilised country in the world would have put up with that

Sorry Smedley but I see it as the exact opposite of how you see it. You're idea is that it will avoid the never ending cycle of coups? I think it guarantees it. It gives legitimacy to coups, it's in the constitution that non-elected non political person can be PM in an emergency. Cue the coup and the next dictator who then promotes himself to PM. As it stands, Prayuth is guilty of treason according to the law at the time (whether or not he and the coup were bad or good, thaty's all subjective). By passing this law it gives legitimacy to himself and the next coup - not that there will be another coup as (in my opinion) Prayuth and his Junta are going nowhere.

[Alwyn]

This is like Russia but in reverse. They were a communist fascist country and the people were told democracy is bad. Democracy is lies, they cheat, they steal, murder and are criminals. Then they're told they're a democracy so the whole country thinks it's normal to lie, cheat and steal.....

[yellowboat]

Democracy is very over rated and not for everyone, he's absolutely correct.

Democracy isn't perfect, but it's miles better than any alternative.

Ask the Taiwanese, Japanese people or Hong Kong students what they think of democracy or a representative government that thing some of you westerners find so pass`e.

[Srikcir]

Unless based on a "Truly Original Idea," the Thai Constitution will be modeled after either the written or unwritten constitutions of:

A. Democratic/Republic nations of Australia, Canada, EU, Japan, UK and USA, etc...

or

B. Socialist Republics of Cambodia, China, Russia, Vietnam, etc...

P.S. Many Socialist Republics call themselves, "Democratic, Democratic Republic, Democratic Peoples, People's Republic," etc... so titles or labels are less important than how they function.

Also good to remember a countries political systems are different than their economic systems.

"Democratic/Republic nations of Australia, Canada, EU, Japan, UK and USA, etc..."

Australia, Canada, Japan and the United Kingdom are constitutional monarchies. The U.S.A. is a republic.

The EU (European Union) is not a country.

Cambodia is a constitutional monarchy, China, Russia and Vietnam are republics with a single political movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_system_of_government

"republics with a single political movement"

The correct word is communist government. Look up that term in wikipedia.

[smedly]

as I have already stated on previous threads, this non elected PM thing is being blown out of all proportion, it is a clause for emergencies only - nobody is going to install a PM by force after an election, the PM will be selected just exactly the way it has been in the past - with a vote in the lower house once a government is formed.

If anything it is a clause that will avoid the never ending cycle of coups that have plagued this country for years, lets not forget that there are powerful laws and bodies being introduced to combat corruption and it may be that a future PM or a government could be completely removed from office for gross misconduct corruption and/or power abuse a good example being the last PTP government ! which additionally was also (as we all know) headed by a criminal on the run living abroad - how Ludacris was that - no democratic civilised country in the world would have put up with that

Sorry Smedley but I see it as the exact opposite of how you see it. You're idea is that it will avoid the never ending cycle of coups? I think it guarantees it. It gives legitimacy to coups, it's in the constitution that non-elected non political person can be PM in an emergency. Cue the coup and the next dictator who then promotes himself to PM. As it stands, Prayuth is guilty of treason according to the law at the time (whether or not he and the coup were bad or good, thaty's all subjective). By passing this law it gives legitimacy to himself and the next coup - not that there will be another coup as (in my opinion) Prayuth and his Junta are going nowhere.

Oh dear, so you think morally PTP should have been allowed to continue their full term unchallenged ?

I think not - how on earth can you justify a government that was being run by a criminal convict from abroad thieving the people blind - abusing power - cheating lying and murdering their own citizens and driving the country to the brink of civil war - you have got to be kidding - you really need to take a long hard look at what you are advocating, there were laws and a constitution in place but PTP were just brushing them aside unchallenged with impunity because they could - it had to stop

I also hope you and your cohorts are posting this nonsense from within Thailand and are pursued arrested and deported but then it is highly unlikely you are in Thailand

[chainarong]

What can one say , what a load of bunk, one could retaliate with beware of the Junta trap , what's good for the goose General is good for the gander, I can read you and your mates like a book, actually you are so predictable they did write a book, it is called Beware of the Junta trap, what ye sow so ye shall reap, you might like to remember that when they are out on the streets.

[ExPratt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

as I have already stated on previous threads, this non elected PM thing is being blown out of all proportion, it is a clause for emergencies only - nobody is going to install a PM by force after an election, the PM will be selected just exactly the way it has been in the past - with a vote in the lower house once a government is formed.

If anything it is a clause that will avoid the never ending cycle of coups that have plagued this country for years, lets not forget that there are powerful laws and bodies being introduced to combat corruption and it may be that a future PM or a government could be completely removed from office for gross misconduct corruption and/or power abuse a good example being the last PTP government ! which additionally was also (as we all know) headed by a criminal on the run living abroad - how Ludacris was that - no democratic civilised country in the world would have put up with that

Sorry Smedley but I see it as the exact opposite of how you see it. You're idea is that it will avoid the never ending cycle of coups? I think it guarantees it. It gives legitimacy to coups, it's in the constitution that non-elected non political person can be PM in an emergency. Cue the coup and the next dictator who then promotes himself to PM. As it stands, Prayuth is guilty of treason according to the law at the time (whether or not he and the coup were bad or good, thaty's all subjective). By passing this law it gives legitimacy to himself and the next coup - not that there will be another coup as (in my opinion) Prayuth and his Junta are going nowhere.

Oh dear, so you think morally PTP should have been allowed to continue their full term unchallenged ?

I think not - how on earth can you justify a government that was being run by a criminal convict from abroad thieving the people blind - abusing power - cheating lying and murdering their own citizens and driving the country to the brink of civil war - you have got to be kidding - you really need to take a long hard look at what you are advocating, there were laws and a constitution in place but PTP were just brushing them aside unchallenged with impunity because they could - it had to stop

I also hope you and your cohorts are posting this nonsense from within Thailand and are pursued arrested and deported but then it is highly unlikely you are in Thailand

You going to grass us all up are you , sounds about right

[Eric Loh]

as I have already stated on previous threads, this non elected PM thing is being blown out of all proportion, it is a clause for emergencies only - nobody is going to install a PM by force after an election, the PM will be selected just exactly the way it has been in the past - with a vote in the lower house once a government is formed.

If anything it is a clause that will avoid the never ending cycle of coups that have plagued this country for years, lets not forget that there are powerful laws and bodies being introduced to combat corruption and it may be that a future PM or a government could be completely removed from office for gross misconduct corruption and/or power abuse a good example being the last PTP government ! which additionally was also (as we all know) headed by a criminal on the run living abroad - how Ludacris was that - no democratic civilised country in the world would have put up with that

Sorry Smedley but I see it as the exact opposite of how you see it. You're idea is that it will avoid the never ending cycle of coups? I think it guarantees it. It gives legitimacy to coups, it's in the constitution that non-elected non political person can be PM in an emergency. Cue the coup and the next dictator who then promotes himself to PM. As it stands, Prayuth is guilty of treason according to the law at the time (whether or not he and the coup were bad or good, thaty's all subjective). By passing this law it gives legitimacy to himself and the next coup - not that there will be another coup as (in my opinion) Prayuth and his Junta are going nowhere.

Oh dear, so you think morally PTP should have been allowed to continue their full term unchallenged ?

I think not - how on earth can you justify a government that was being run by a criminal convict from abroad thieving the people blind - abusing power - cheating lying and murdering their own citizens and driving the country to the brink of civil war - you have got to be kidding - you really need to take a long hard look at what you are advocating, there were laws and a constitution in place but PTP were just brushing them aside unchallenged with impunity because they could - it had to stop

I also hope you and your cohorts are posting this nonsense from within Thailand and are pursued arrested and deported but then it is highly unlikely you are in Thailand

By what you are describing the previous government, they ought to be ousted by the people. And I see you are beginning to imitate the PM in ordering obedience or else.

[Srikcir]

"THAIS CANNOT co-exist if they reject the new charter,"

That statement fairly well cuts the throat of any public referendum on the new constitution.

Day 1 Constitution is published

Day 2 NLA passes the Constitution by unanimous vote excepting four absences

Day 3 Prayut declares the nation to be a democratic monarchy.

Then the feudal trap has been sprung.Hopefully Thais will come to love their new masters.

[ExPratt]

Oh dear, so you think morally PTP should have been allowed to continue their full term unchallenged ?

I think not - how on earth can you justify a government that was being run by a criminal convict from abroad thieving the people blind - abusing power - cheating lying and murdering their own citizens and driving the country to the brink of civil war - you have got to be kidding - you really need to take a long hard look at what you are advocating, there were laws and a constitution in place but PTP were just brushing them aside unchallenged with impunity because they could - it had to stop

I also hope you and your cohorts are posting this nonsense from within Thailand and are pursued arrested and deported but then it is highly unlikely you are in Thailand

Mate you want to have a good look at yourself saying things like that. That sounds like the Talk of a Junta Grass. Terrible thing to say to someone. You want them to be " Pursued arrested and deported" because they don't agree with you or the Junta. Nice

[chiang mai]

Hmm, according to a majority of posters in this thread, democracy is to be treasured. That being the case, why do so few people vote in elections!

Democracy, most people can't handle democracy, not even in "mature" democracies in the west.

[chiang mai]

Oh dear!

Edited March 4, 2015 by chiang mai

[baboon]

Hmm, according to a majority of posters in this thread, democracy is to be treasured. That being the case, why do so few people vote in elections!

Because frequently there are two main parties, both of whom want pretty much the same things and want to charge you pretty much the same money for those things. that does not make the system wrong. If it looked like Nazis, for example, were attempting to get a foothold, people would be off to the ballot boxes in droves...

[sandrew33]

Hmm, according to a majority of posters in this thread, democracy is to be treasured. That being the case, why do so few people vote in elections!

Democracy, most people can't handle democracy, not even in "mature" democracies in the west.

They have the democratic right to do what they want...

In full knowledge that in most functioning democracies they are underpinned by rule of law (which stems from the basic concept that all are equal before the law); it also requires independent institutions.

What the new constitution proposes is not just about whether the PM can be an unelected appointee, the real "sin" against the people is the fully appointed Senate and the fact that Senate has been given greater powers.

As proposed the Senate will appoint/approve judges; it will appoint the Electoral Commission (the EC will have the power to bar any proposed policy offered by a political party on the grounds of it being populist); the Senate will also need to approve ALL cabinet minister appointments and will have an effective power of Veto on all laws coming out of the House of Reps.

The House of Reps will also be hamstrung in other ways. The proportionate representation model will inherently ensure that the House is made up of a series of small to medium size parties which won't have the power to form a majority in their own rights. So it's the old dysfunctional early 90's model of weak coalitions.

Where there is gridlock - which is highly possible - it is then possible to have an external person appointed as PM.

So you'll have a "democratic house" where no real power can be exercised. Answerable to a wholly appointed senate made up of Khon dii ("good people"). These same people will have appointed the EC, the judiciary and will approve all cabinet ministers ...

That's simply a Chinese style dictatorship. Which is exactly the point. With a form of democracy they hope will appease outsiders sufficiently to let them get away with it.

Practically, it would be less democratic than Burma.

Any attempt for the House of Reps to change the system will fail under such a controlled system and the khon dii will run Thailand in perpetuity with a never ending cycle of appointments to the senate and other key institutions ...

It may be stable ... for a while anyway ..,

It won't reflect the concept of the rule of law; equality of anyone before said law or any other basic condition that a free country would hold up as baseline conditions...

The trains might run on time

Edited March 4, 2015 by sandrew33

[chiang mai]

Hmm, according to a majority of posters in this thread, democracy is to be treasured. That being the case, why do so few people vote in elections!

Because frequently there are two main parties, both of whom want pretty much the same things and want to charge you pretty much the same money for those things. that does not make the system wrong. If it looked like Nazis, for example, were attempting to get a foothold, people would be off to the ballot boxes in droves...

I don't agree, in the case of UK political parties their respective mantras are very different, presumably it's the same in most western countries - Conservatives are good with budgets, Labour like to spend!.

And nuts to the idea that people don't vote if the status quo is maintained, most folks wouldn't know what a "Nazis party" looked like if it smacked them up side of their left leaning heads!

[chiang mai]

The term "democracy" is taken as being an absolute value whereas in reality in most countries, I would guess, it is in a range of 50% to 80% or similar.

[Rancid]

Democracy is a scam where the elites just buy all the political parties, voting is the illusion of choice. Even the Greeks who invented it later said it didn't work.

Dictatorships if benevolent can work quite well, however they are few and far between.

The US had a good go at trying to establish a Republic with checks and balances but today this has all been completely corrupted to the farce it currently is.

President Grant threw out the Central Bank as he understood the dangers of allowing bankers to control the money supply. Several attempts were made on his life, wonder by who?

President Wilson then sold out and established the Federal Reserve thus allowing criminal bankers and large corporations to control the country thru Wall St.

Since then the US has been moving towards a form of socialised fascism, it won't end well.

Where lies the solution, seems we are still waiting for a system that actually works for all and not just the few. In all honesty Thailand's democratic governments have been pretty bad, time will tell about their alternative, history suggests though that if autocratic the wrong people will control it eventually.

[baboon]

Hmm, according to a majority of posters in this thread, democracy is to be treasured. That being the case, why do so few people vote in elections!

Because frequently there are two main parties, both of whom want pretty much the same things and want to charge you pretty much the same money for those things. that does not make the system wrong. If it looked like Nazis, for example, were attempting to get a foothold, people would be off to the ballot boxes in droves...

I don't agree, in the case of UK political parties their respective mantras are very different, presumably it's the same in most western countries - Conservatives are good with budgets, Labour like to spend!.

And nuts to the idea that people don't vote if the status quo is maintained, most folks wouldn't know what a "Nazis party" looked like if it smacked them up side of their left leaning heads!

Please do disagree. It is your democratic right to do so.

[sandrew33]

The term "democracy" is taken as being an absolute value whereas in reality in most countries, I would guess, it is in a range of 50% to 80% or similar.

I see your posts and I hear "divert divert divert" ... "look over there...it's an imperfect system"...

[chiang mai]

The term "democracy" is taken as being an absolute value whereas in reality in most countries, I would guess, it is in a range of 50% to 80% or similar.

I see your posts and I hear "divert divert divert" ... "look over there...it's an imperfect system"...

That's because you think you were born in a country that is an absolute democracy and you want the same thing for this country, you are incorrect on both points.

[Eric Loh]

The term "democracy" is taken as being an absolute value whereas in reality in most countries, I would guess, it is in a range of 50% to 80% or similar.

You are not wrong and there is a democracy index. While Thailand is not in the league of full democracies like North America or Western Europe, we are much better than the democracy in Middle East and African countries and Russia. So for those who insist to bring out examples of poor democracies in Syria or Russia, they are really not making a fair comparison.

[tbthailand]

Freedom on speech and especially freedom of the press are the very pillars of democracy; you cannot have such without them and Prayut has suppressed both.

Now maybe people will start to see the true nature of the beast for the beast is a coup leader that clearly has no idea what democracy is or how to achieve it. New boss ... same as the old boss ... it's allow about power for him and his buddies and he'll do anything to cling on to power and as he said ... if you don't like it then leave.

The first thing that Thailand needs to do is to enforce the criminal act of treason, try Prayut and then lock him up for life.

He talks about there being no such thing as 100% democracy and I fully agree but under his regime there is 0% as no dictator permits the voices of the people to be heard.

Who is going to be elected? A political party or person of his choice so that it fits in with his ideology of allowing the elite to continue to rule and suppress the people of Thailand? Didn't he make that clear with the statement ... As for the option of allowing a non-MP to become prime minister, he said this might be necessary to break a future political impasse. However, he denied this clause was part of a scheme to let some figures close to the current administration take over.

What Prayut will ultimately achieve is a wider division in Thai society and as the division grows ever wider the path to civil war becomes more and more probable ... of course that matters not to the elites, they'll fly out on their private jets and wait until the carnage is over and hope to regain power once again after the ordinary Thai and killed his fellow countrymen.

The sooner Prayut is removed the sooner you'll have a chance at democracy but the new gov will need to send a strong message that a coup will no longer be tolerated and the only way to do that is to try Prayut for treason.

Agree with your sentiments. But I don't have much hope today...

For example:

the new gov will need to send a strong message that a coup will no longer be tolerated

just won't happen - at least not with the "next government" because the military/'NCPO'/ and their elite allies are writing a constitution that neuters the "next government" and even will allow it to be swapped out if it gets too 'uppity'...

[Fat Haggis]

They can make sure a coup never happens again, by simply having no amnesties against those who conduct them!!

Hold them accountable for their actions, it's really that simple, but as long as the Army are not accountabke to any laws or Government then its business as usual here.

[sandrew33]

That's because you think you were born in a country that is an absolute democracy and you want the same thing for this country, you are incorrect on both points.

Now you presume to speak for what I want? Arrogant &lt;deleted&gt;.

And again, the "absolute democracy" is just a diversion... What's proposed isn't remotely within a bulls roar of a democracy at all.

FWIW, I think Thai people should all be treated equally before the law and as equals in their own country. This constitution ensures that won't occur....

[Chris Lawrence]

"Don't forget that there's no such thing as a 100-per-cent democracy. We must look comprehensively when we talk about democracy. I see some institutions teaching people to be democratic, but what is democracy without notions like rights, liberty and duty? All these are necessary," the prime minister stressed.

What can you do against the lunatic who is more intelligent than yourself, who gives your arguments a fair hearing and then simply persists in his lunacy?

George Orwell

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/george_orwell_3.html#CyRpaxjVsKVtWFsB.99

[sandrew33]

The term "democracy" is taken as being an absolute value whereas in reality in most countries, I would guess, it is in a range of 50% to 80% or similar.

You are not wrong and there is a democracy index. While Thailand is not in the league of full democracies like North America or Western Europe, we are much better than the democracy in Middle East and African countries and Russia. So for those who insist to bring out examples of poor democracies in Syria or Russia, they are really not making a fair comparison.

In 2014 Thailand fell 21 spots to 93rd on the list and is now behind countries such as Fiji and just ahead of Kenya, Uganda & Nicaragua ... (I could list a number of African locations Thailand is behind but yep, it's 15 spots ahead of Iraq and Libya so that's awesome)

If your best argument is "yep, we're in free fall, and we really suck. in areas such as functioning government and civil liberties, but we could be worse" then frankly that's a pretty crap argument....

Aspiring to best practice is surely a more noble aim.

You think this new Constitution pushes Thailand up the list?

[LuckyLew]

Democracy. human rights and freedom of speech are so over rated

just ask the good PM

[Eric Loh]

The term "democracy" is taken as being an absolute value whereas in reality in most countries, I would guess, it is in a range of 50% to 80% or similar.

You are not wrong and there is a democracy index. While Thailand is not in the league of full democracies like North America or Western Europe, we are much better than the democracy in Middle East and African countries and Russia. So for those who insist to bring out examples of poor democracies in Syria or Russia, they are really not making a fair comparison.

In 2014 Thailand fell 21 spots to 93rd on the list and is now behind countries such as Fiji and just ahead of Kenya, Uganda & Nicaragua ... (I could list a number of African locations Thailand is behind but yep, it's 15 spots ahead of Iraq and Libya so that's awesome)

If your best argument is "yep, we're in free fall, and we really suck. in areas such as functioning government and civil liberties, but we could be worse" then frankly that's a pretty crap argument....

Aspiring to best practice is surely a more noble aim.

You think this new Constitution pushes Thailand up the list?

The index weigh heavily on the freedom aspect and the characteristic of the political system. If the new constitution deny the freedom of elected officials and lean more on appointments, then Thailand democracy index will drop.

[KarenBravo]

I can't believe that there are people on here that enjoyed all the privileges of democracy and yet state that a dictatorship is preferable.

Bit of an insult to all those that died defending it.......