The difference between a hard disk and a hard drive for dummies (that's me, LOL)

[NeverSure]

A volume is a partition. When first created but before it is formatted, it is called a raw unallocated volume. In that stage it can't contain a drive.

[NeverSure]

They aren't the same at all, and it's not true that "it isn't". One more time.

You can put 24 hard drives on 1 hard disk so they aren't the same.

The first 24 are software which create partitions and drives on a hard disk.

The software drives you write about are known as partitions.

Wrong.

A volume is a partition. When first created but before it is formatted, it is called a raw unallocated volume. In that stage it can't contain a drive.

I posted that above as you were writing.

You can create a partition and format it and have a drive in that partition but that is all software on the disk. Drive on a disk.

Edited March 15, 2015 by NeverSure

[SoiBiker]

A volume is not the same thing as a partition.

[NeverSure]

"In Windows Server 2008 the distinction between volumes and partitions is somewhat murky. When using Disk Management, a regular partition on a basic disk is called a simple volume, even though technically a simple volume requires that the disk be a dynamic disk."

Microsoft

Note how they carefully differentiate what the disk is.

Edited March 15, 2015 by NeverSure

[Chicog]

A volume is a partition. When first created but before it is formatted, it is called a raw unallocated volume. In that stage it can't contain a drive.

God you can't help yourself can you?

You can create multiple volumes on a partition.

They are not the same thing at all.

Put the Microsoft for Dummies book in the bin.

[NeverSure]

A volume is a partition. When first created but before it is formatted, it is called a raw unallocated volume. In that stage it can't contain a drive.

God you can't help yourself can you?

You can create multiple volumes on a partition.

They are not the same thing at all.

Put the Microsoft for Dummies book in the bin.

Got an authoritative link?

You can create multiple volumes on one physical hard disk using software.

You can span one volume and one drive across multiple physical hard disks using software.

Your mind is closed. There's no helping you. You must live in a world of anger.

[Benjie]

You say anyone can edit wikipedia so why hasn't someone changed the wrong definition of hard disk drive? Not only wikipedia but everyone else here are also all wrong and only you are correct.

[SoiBiker]

Your mind is closed. There's no helping you. You must live in a world of anger.

Says the guy who's been arguing that 2+2=5 for several pages now.

[NeverSure]

You say anyone can edit wikipedia so why hasn't someone changed the wrong definition of hard disk drive? Not only wikipedia but everyone else here are also all wrong and only you are correct.

I realize fully well that the term hard drive has become a common term for hard disk. That's why I started the thread. If you've read the whole thread, you'll see that neither Microsoft nor manufacturers make that mistake.

If you don't properly differentiate between the physical hard disk and a software partition with a software drive on it, you can't explain to someone how to manage hard disks. Microsoft is very careful to differentiate so that people will understand which it is talking about when using hard disk utilities.

I've posted links and explained it over and over. Apparently some people simply aren't interested and in fact in their ignorance they attack the concept.

I thought people would be interest in a discussion but no, right off the bat they attacked me to the point of calling me an idiot.

It appears that they are going to stay ignorant.

Go figure.

[SoiBiker]

I realize fully well that the term hard drive has become a common term for hard disk. That's why I started the thread. If you've read the whole thread, you'll see that neither Microsoft nor manufacturers make that mistake.

Lets see what the manufacturers call them, shall we?

http://samsunghdd.seagate.com/

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/internal/

http://www.toshiba.com/us/int-storage

[DogNo1]

This discussion never gets into any advanced drive management but nitpicks over simple concepts. Is your only experience with Microsoft? How long ago did you get that MSCE? There are software suites devoted to hard disk management. Why not go to the Paragon website and read up if you really want to learn about disk management. You've beaten the dead horse into fragments in this thread.

[NeverSure]

This discussion never gets into any advanced drive management but nitpicks over simple concepts. Is your only experience with Microsoft? How long ago did you get that MSCE? There are software suites devoted to hard disk management. Why not go to the Paragon website and read up if you really want to learn about disk management. You've beaten the dead horse into fragments in this thread.

Paragon calls that software "Hard Disk Manager" for a reason. They have to start with a hard disk in order to put their software on it which manages the disk. It's obvious that they know it.

That's what, and that's all I've been saying.

It's so easy.

I wanted to have a conversation about hard disk management, creating partitions, striping, RAID and so on, but it's been a constant attack instead of a discussion.

Frankly that's not unusual on TVF but this is the worst I've had. I'm ashamed of some members and their personal attacks.

[JSixpack]

Should LastPass remember this password?

@NeverSure, the OP is just the same post you made more than 2 years ago, when you were playing "teach," and it was refuted there:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/608159-reinstall-of-windows-xpadvice-please/page-2

Your confusion with misleading and illogical terminology such as "software hard drive" and "logical hard drive" (and now "software drive") were pointed out (as they have been again in this thread, notably by Chicoq) and the origin of your "credentials" rightly questioned (since you brought them up) as likely being Khao San Road. As long as you use such terminology, your questions really don't make any sense and are therefore unanswereable--but you take lack of an answer to a nonsensical question as confirmation that your understanding is correct and give yourself a fatuous little thumbs up.

Microsoft uses no such terms in its technical lit. There is no mythical "software drive" "on a disk." The OS is configured as to what it can and will call partitions and volumes. The phrase you never use, because either you're in denial or you don't understand it, is "logical drive."

So why repeat the same nonsense? Two years ago you again came out with the same thing and were again enlightened.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/706368-whats-wrong-with-these-hard-drives/page-3#entry7499157

Definitions from authoritative sources were given you here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/706368-whats-wrong-with-these-hard-drives/page-3#entry7499157

"In Windows Explorer, a partition on a hard disk will be called a Hard Disk Drive for the convenience of the unwashed masses and those with low-level tech knowledge such as yourself."

Manarak did a great job of ripping your erroneous ideas apart here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/706368-whats-wrong-with-these-hard-drives/page-3#entry7506054

The HD and FD firmware issue was explained for you there already. And I followed up here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/706368-whats-wrong-with-these-hard-drives/page-3#entry7512522

and replied to your question, "How hard can this be?" with "We'll have no idea until you start trying to learn. We have to consider your advanced age, after all. I've explained it to you twice already. manarak has as well. First you'll have to unlearn the wrong ideas and then learn the correct ones, starting with the basics. Go to it."

You didn't. Since it's all been done before, and you know exactly what the knowledgeable members here are going to say, wasting their time with you--which you regard as "fun"--I'd put your OP in the category of trolling. Really the mods should close the thread and warn you not to start another.

About the only thing new here is that we've discovered you didn't know that drive D: isn't reserved for an optical drive. Then you erroneously claimed it used to be so reserved but now isn't, so that it needed pointing out that such was in fact never the case. More time-wasting.

From your first link which is Microsoft:

A partition, sometimes also called a volume, is an area on a hard disk that can be formatted with a file system and identified with a letter of the alphabet. For example, drive C on most Windows computers is a partition.

Think about that carefully. It's just what I've been saying. Microsoft agrees. They taught me this.

Right there Microsoft makes it clear that the drive is on a disk.

From your second link, although wiki isn't dependable, someone got this right:

"...and the term "format" is understood to mean an operation in which a new disk medium is fully prepared to store files."

They could have accurately added: "...is fully prepared (with software) to store files."

Cheers

Microsoft doesn't agree with you. You've merely misunderstood and distorted what they were saying (typical, as with Paragon later). Think about it carefully. They didn't at all say that "the drive is on a disk." As is clear from the sentence they were merely giving an example of identified on "most" (unwashed masses) "Windows" computers (for convenience of said unwashed). It doesn't have to be identified with the word "drive" or a letter at all. Nor does "Drive C:" have to be a partition. With another, or no, letter assigned, a folder in the partition could instead be called "drive C:" or "MountPoint1." (Most useful, when you run out of drive letters. After all, if you go GPT, Windows will let you have up to 128 partitions.) And you could do the same with another folder on the same partition giving multiple volumes, as Chicog told you.

Nor would have it been accurate, but rather potentially misleading, to add "(with software)."

Now, your simple but fervent faith in drive letters is most touching. Microsoft's terminology for users in Windows may be helpful for them. Like "folders," too, for "directory." Yep, there's a little manila file folder right there on the disk. So cute. Dig a little deeper and it becomes confusing, as analogies aren't good enough to describe the reality.

It's so easy.

I wanted to have a conversation about hard disk management, creating partitions, striping, RAID and so on, but it's been a constant attack instead of a discussion.

No, your OP doesn't indicate any interest in other subjects besides once again claiming, basically, that a partition is a hard drive OR hard disk drive OR (cough) "software hard drive." But it's, alas, NOT easy for you to understand how you're wrong on that point and you can't seem learn any better about what's really going on under the hood. You just partition (Wheee!) and see that Windows Explorer puts little gremlins there and gives it a drive letter and calls it a hard drive. That's ALL. Hence you aren't qualified to discuss the other topics either and I really hope you'll stay off the subject of disks entirely, unless you want to find us a good deal on nice big one.

Why not take your naive user understanding over to the heavyweight computer forums, including Microsoft itself, and discuss it there rather than continue repeating it here? Maybe they can teach you. This is your third time around here with no luck. Lemme help you out with a list:

http://forums.anandtech.com/forumdisplay.php?f=47
http://hardforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=29
http://www.hardwareforums.com/forums/storage-devices.11/
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/forum-32.html
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum?tab=Threads

[Chicog]

A well researched and thorough response that really ought to put this thread to bed.

NeverSure, if you carry on with this rubbish, you're just being an a r s e h o l e.

[NeverSure]

A well researched and thorough response that really ought to put this thread to bed.

NeverSure, if you carry on with this rubbish, you're just being an a r s e h o l e.

Chicog, in your rudeness, you have called me and idiot and an and for some reason the mods have allowed it. No I didn't report it, but it is against forum rules regarding flaming another member. You are a sad little person.

I was hoping to have a discussion about putting software on a physical hard disk or disks to manipulate them. But you, while calling me an idiot, are unable to comprehend that in order to have a drive on a blank disk that disk needs software. I couldn't teach anyone about hard disk management without discussing the software it needs to even have a formatted partition and a drive letter.

It would have been fun to have a discussion about my NAS which is wireless and hidden, how the physical hard disks are hot swappable, and what software and firmware it takes to do that. It would have been fun to discuss how all of those physical hard disks are just one hard drive.

Yes I am aware that the term hard drive has entered the lexicon to mean hard disk but that doesn't work when talking about managing hard disks with granularity. Why else would I start the thread? "Let me show you how to put three drives on that disk and Windows explorer will see three drives and store and find data accordingly."

You aren't intelligent enough to move past insults and understand what I was saying: A physical hard disk has no drive letter on it and no usable storage space unless it has software on it to create a formatted partition. There is no drive to see or use without that software.

I'm gone from this thread for various reasons and welcome to my ignore list. I put up with serious insults just so long and then I'm gone. I will however continue to help other members such as I did the other day when a box wouldn't start and posted an Active Directory error message. I nailed that by saying that the OS had at some time been joined to a domain controller with Active Directory and what the meant to the member. If he hadn't had a prior image I would have walked him through editing the registry to fix that.

That's far more than you could do so my help is still available.

Edited March 16, 2015 by NeverSure

[RKASA]

A volume is a partition. When first created but before it is formatted, it is called a raw unallocated volume. In that stage it can't contain a drive.

God you can't help yourself can you?

You can create multiple volumes on a partition.

They are not the same thing at all.

Put the Microsoft for Dummies book in the bin.

"Put the Microsoft for Dummies book in the bin." but... but.... but..... Microsoft is for dummies your going to need that.

[JSixpack]

I was hoping to have a discussion about putting software on a physical hard disk or disks to manipulate them.

There's not much to say about "putting" software. Mostly you run the installation program and it handles things for you. 'Course sometimes it doesn't need to be installed but just copied or moved over. HxD, for example, is also a portable program so then you just unzip it--if you've got a program to unzip for you. Fortunately I think Explore comes with unzipping functionality built-in nowadays.

I don't recall anybody here expressing any need to "manipulate" hard disks. Nor would anybody, because this is another of your made-up word applications, as it's really only applied to "manipulating" hard drive firmware, which, after all, doesn't reside on the disk. Occasionally people do have questions about, say, "partitioning," which applies to hard drives.

But you, while calling me an idiot, are unable to comprehend that in order to have a drive on a blank disk that disk needs software. I couldn't teach anyone about hard disk management without discussing the software it needs to even have a formatted partition and a drive letter.

No, a disk needs hardware & firmware, not software, in order to become part of a drive. You know, stuff like head actuator, read/write heads, spindle and spindle motor, logic board.

And to have a formatted partition a user may or not need any software to accomplish that as many drives come pre-formatted and partitioned. The installation of an OS may do that as well and the OS will assign a designation to the read/writeable area(s) of the disk. Windows, since it uses "files" and "folders," should have used the term "filing cabinet" instead of "hard drive" to prevent unfortunate confounding of logical drives with physical by naive users.

Yes I am aware that the term hard drive has entered the lexicon to mean hard disk but that doesn't work when talking about managing hard disks with granularity.

"Hard drive" is short not for "hard disk," as you mistakenly believe, but, as any dictionary of technical terms will explain, short for "hard disk drive." That's been true for like, forever. And it works perfectly to any needed degree of granularity when you're using it correctly. In that case, "managing" means things like swapping out, or upgrading, adding, or taking apart and blowing the dust out, or putting in the freezer in a vain hope of rescue.

You aren't intelligent enough to move past insults and understand what I was saying: A physical hard disk has no drive letter on it and no usable storage space unless it has software on it to create a formatted partition. There is no drive to see or use without that software.

What you're saying doesn't make any sense, as you've been told for over two years now. Since you won't learn better but keep repeating, of course people begin to get frustrated. We don't like the spreading of false info around here.

Get these replies to your false beliefs expressed above:

• A physical hard disk NEVER has any drive letter on it anywhere unless you scribble one with a permanent marker.
• A physical hard disk DOES NOT NEED any software on it to create a formatted partition. It may not even need to be part of its final housing as the factory may format it before it goes in.
• A program capable of creating a partition and file system can reside on a different hard disk.
• After a physical hard disk is formatted and partitioned, it STILL may not have ANY software on it but it IS usable. A file system, MBR, and partition table are NOT software.
• There IS a hard drive without any file system and partitioning, it goes by the name "hard drive," or, if particular, "Seagate Hard Drive" etc., and, if in your possession, it CAN be seen, held, and tucked in at night. It CAN be read and written to without having any software on it.

[Chicog]

Chicog, in your rudeness, you have called me and idiot and an and for some reason the mods have allowed it. No I didn't report it, but it is against forum rules regarding flaming another member. You are a sad little person.

I was hoping to have a discussion about putting software on a physical hard disk or disks to manipulate them. But you, while calling me an idiot, are unable to comprehend that in order to have a drive on a blank disk that disk needs software. I couldn't teach anyone about hard disk management without discussing the software it needs to even have a formatted partition and a drive letter.

It would have been fun to have a discussion about my NAS which is wireless and hidden, how the physical hard disks are hot swappable, and what software and firmware it takes to do that. It would have been fun to discuss how all of those physical hard disks are just one hard drive.

Yes I am aware that the term hard drive has entered the lexicon to mean hard disk but that doesn't work when talking about managing hard disks with granularity. Why else would I start the thread? "Let me show you how to put three drives on that disk and Windows explorer will see three drives and store and find data accordingly."

You aren't intelligent enough to move past insults and understand what I was saying: A physical hard disk has no drive letter on it and no usable storage space unless it has software on it to create a formatted partition. There is no drive to see or use without that software.

I'm gone from this thread for various reasons and welcome to my ignore list. I put up with serious insults just so long and then I'm gone. I will however continue to help other members such as I did the other day when a box wouldn't start and posted an Active Directory error message. I nailed that by saying that the OS had at some time been joined to a domain controller with Active Directory and what the meant to the member. If he hadn't had a prior image I would have walked him through editing the registry to fix that.

That's far more than you could do so my help is still available.

Be grateful that I didn't call you a Fox News Viewer, although it would explain your ignorance.

You have not been "having a discussion", you've been telling everyone who pointed out your mistakes that they're wrong, and coming out with the most ridiculous pile of baloney to justify it. This crap thread should have died on page one.

The day I ever need help from you I am in deep trouble.

And it sums it up when you think the answer to removing the domain credentials from a client is to go pissing about in the registry.

Good god man, we have a phrase about people with half a brain cell being dangerous.

[Crossy]

OK, enough children gentlemen, it is quite evident that there is no hard and fast rule, the technology has overtaken the terminology.

Closed unless someone PMs me (or another mod) with a really, really, incredibly good reason to re-open.