Yohan Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 If the foreigner still wants to come to Thailand, then he should accept that the Thai people have already put in place the structure for such visits.(Yes, I know, if we start talking politics here, we're out. And the Thai people have very little choice in their politicians anyway) Some true points in it. Foreigners should not complain to the Thai people or even not to the Thai government, they should complain to their own embassy and diplomats there and to their own government........... However chances that your own government and the own politicians are getting active in such an issue, is very very small. To negotiate that question is difficult and cautiously I can say, Thai politicians will offer you a list in return, how they feel and how Thais are discriminated overseas.......by immigration politics, by visa restrictions as a tourist, by trade and custom regulations, and so on and so on...... Dual pricing is not only in Thailand, however price differences are remarkable, as in some cases the foreigner pays over 20 times more than the local Thai. Also dual pricing in other countries is not so clear separated into foreign and local, but is indeed existing... If the diplomats of your own country remain silent (never heard anything, that this was a subject for any foreign diplomat during the countless parties or golfmeetings with Thai politicians), then what can you do? What can you really do against it? As I said in my last postings, tourist agencies and similar organisations could arrange for special services and consideration for these full-paying (or overcharged) tourists..... This is the only realistic solution, I can see in the nearer future. Do you know any other realistic solution in that question? Thai people will argue, that this is not even overcharged, but indeed full-paying, and that Thai people are eligible to a high discount.....because of .......and because of .....and nothing will change..... Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NedKelly Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 I spent many years (10) in Australia taking people to attractions in and around Sydney. There was no evidence of ANY double pricing for any other people, locals ethnics, tourists or whoever. In actual fact the people I was assisting were discriminated against as they had to pay a slightly discounted price which was always only a small discount. The people all had an intellectual disability, many did not work or worked in jobs that paid shit or only had a pension. It put a lot of pressure on me to offer activities that were free or cheap because not many attractions would give discounts. The Zoo would do it if I wrote to them many weeks in advance with the names of all the people who would attend. then they would open a side gat eand let us in like f______ing animals. So when I come to Thailand and I line up at a national park counter to pay 10 times the amount of a local person I feel slightly cheated. I was around when the idiot new boss of Thai nationalparks introduced the new price for foreigners........it was an overnight thing. It cause a lot of problems and red faces among the Thai community because many companies had contracts with overseas companies to provide tours to Nat Parks. Imagine the problem........35 peopl ein a tour group x 20 baht = 700 baht. the overnight they would have to pay 7,000 baht !! Sorry but 10 times the local fee is nothing short of greed !! I could understand and accept to pay say 50 baht but 200 compared to 20 is a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted April 3, 2004 Share Posted April 3, 2004 In actual fact the people I was assisting were discriminated against as they had to pay a slightly discounted price which was always only a small discount. The people all had an intellectual disability, many did not work or worked in jobs that paid shit or only had a pension.......I could understand and accept to pay say 50 baht but 200 compared to 20 is a joke........ I can feel and understand with you. We have to take care of 3 old people, (78, 84, 97 years old) and we are busy with elderly care, despite our old ones do not have any intellectual disability. Nobody wants to have anything to do with old or disabled people.... To take care of old or disabled people is much more difficult than to take care of small children and also costly if you want to provide our old parents a nice life. Yes, I also can understand and accept 50 baht instead of 20 baht. Especially in our case, everything takes longer.... wheelchair....toilets.....restaurant.... Compared to Japan, where is our permanent home, Thailand pricing is about 5:1 all in all..... this means 5 times cheaper than the most expensive country in Asia and one of the most expensive countries in the world... If you tell me now, they want to charge you as a tourist the SAME as in Japan, it should not be more than 5 times the price of the locals.... But they charge up to 20 times more..... However as long as our own diplomats, our own embassy, our own politicians remain silent, we cannot do anything just we have to pay. As I wrote in my previous postings, they should be fair enough to provide at least a very good service to such foreigners in Thailand - especially to people, who will pay, as they have to consider the disabled or old members of their families.... Last year, we had a special farewell. We had one month-fix air-tickets - The plane arrived too early in Bangkok, at 23.15 instead of 23.55, and it was July, which has 31 days..... The airline was very very helpful to us, and took our old family members with wheel-chairs directly to the Thai customs.... Departure: This was an illegal overstay of 30 minutes.... (31 days AND 30 minutes) makes a fine of 400 baht per person, 3 old people, makes baht 1200,-.... 1200 baht is still cheaper than to send 77, 83 and 96 years old foreigners to a visa-run to Malaysia by wheel-chair. The hotel invoice for these 3 people for one month was over baht 180.000,-....we do not care about the baht 1200,- fine............but it is not the way it should be done, by my opinion. Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
translator Posted April 3, 2004 Share Posted April 3, 2004 Do you know who is charging you more for the goods and services you buy, just becauses you are not Thai? Do you realise how much more you are paying? Are you happy with being overcharged or would you rather spend your money where you are treated fairly? What are you on Guesthouse a world crusade for tourism. I live and have done so for a few years in Thailand. Its not only the thai that try to extort from tourists. I have been to many places tourist, "controlled by thai wife and farang husband. extortion seems to breed in the mind not in the country you visit. I find it easier to walk away from that sort of tourist trick. many places have been pre booked through my thai wife. Upon arrival its the "farang you not say" more money. so its both sides of the coin on tourism in any country where you stand out. spend a week in turkey next time guesthouse.... My advice for wanna be travellers is to read a good non tourist book or get hold of a backpackers experience of the country to be visited. You wont get anywhere filling in a strange question link upon the internet asking for your cookie or trying to place one on your computer.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted April 3, 2004 Author Share Posted April 3, 2004 What are you on Guesthouse a world crusade for tourism......em... No.I'm providing a platform for people to report where they find dual pricing and where they do not. People can then take a look at the website and see at a glance where they are likely to be charged extra. Then like you..they too can find it easier to walk away from that sort of tourist trick Moreover, its the foot in the door for the wider issue of the rights of foreigners who live in Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted April 3, 2004 Share Posted April 3, 2004 I'm providing a platform for people to report where they find dual pricing and where they do not. I like your idea. - To provide a website, which is collecting data and informations, about Thailand, and about where is dual pricing and where is not..... Nothing wrong with that, continue the good work! Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meemiathai Posted April 3, 2004 Share Posted April 3, 2004 Nobody wants to have anything to do with old or disabled people....I would say very few people instead of "nobody". One does learn something about life if one does try to pay attention and understand what they try to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opl Posted April 3, 2004 Share Posted April 3, 2004 Maybe they see it this way ... If you make your living in western countries and come to Thaïland, then your income allows you 5 x more expenses than in your own country... is this fair ? When you are a foreigner and apply for a job , and get a higher salary just because you come from the States or UK, or Europe, is this fair ? On the other hand, take a look on the salaries filipinos or immigrants get in our countries compared to what a national would get, is it fair ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 Maybe they see it this way ... If you make your living in western countries and come to Thaïland, then your income allows you 5 x more expenses than in your own country... is this fair ? To find back to the original subject: If your income allows you 5 x more expenses than in your own country and they charge you 20 x more than a local Thai - is this fair? Is dual pricing fair, because Thailand has an overall income per person much lower than in Europe or USA or Japan? Is dual pricing fair, despite the fact, that there are Thais, not so few of them, who have a high income, which is often higher than the income of a foreign visitor? The solution is easy: You are selling something: an entrance fee, a ticket for transportation, food in a restaurant....and so on.... What is the value of the goods or services you are selling? Who is buying that, or who is using your services, local or foreigner, poor or rich, man or woman, black or white, Muslim or Buddhist, old or young, tourist or businessman and so on is not relevant. If you are insisting to make something like a special tourist charge, then you should offer something extra in return of it: Admission immediately, without lining up with the others, who pay 20 x less ..... Transportation or shows with best possible reserved seats..... Buy one expensive ticket, but two person can enter, to the same condition (your Thai friend for example)..... or what ever.... Just to take more money, and nothing at all in return for it, because they are foreigners and tourists, is for sure not the way it should be done.... it is a rip-off, and it is illegal to do that in this form in Europe, USA and Japan. If Thailand wants to catch up and become a modern and developed country in the future, they will have to abolish that strange way of charging foreigners. Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxexile Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 Maybe they see it this way ... If you make your living in western countries and come to Thaïland, then your income allows you 5 x more expenses than in your own country... is this fair ? When you are a foreigner and apply for a job , and get a higher salary just because you come from the States or UK, or Europe, is this fair ? On the other hand, take a look on the salaries filipinos or immigrants get in our countries compared to what a national would get, is it fair ? if that principle were to be fully applied here then foriegners would be charged 5 times more for everything they purchased here. it sounds like a particularly frightening brand of extreme socialism. gives me a cold sweat just thinking about it. would you pay 5 times more than a thai if you were buying a car, or if you were buying a house ? i doubt it very much. by your reasoning, should visitors to, and foriegn residents in europe and america from poorer parts of the world be charged less than the locals? the thais would have to charge 5 times more for their exports because europeans and americans can afford to pay more. they wouldn't sell so much as a grain of rice if that were the case. the worlds monetary system would soon collapse if that principle were applied worldwide. charging based on nationality and ability to pay is an outrage. by all means subsidise necessities (food,education,health care and access to the legal system) for the poor from taxation (that is what taxation is for...locals pay from income tax and from vat and foriegn visitors pay from vat) but to selectively overcharge foriegners (and not wealthy thais) because someone has decreed that they are all rich is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 If that principle were to be fully applied here then foreigners would be charged 5 times more for everything they purchased here.it sounds like a particularly frightening brand of extreme socialism. gives me a cold sweat just thinking about it. As I mentioned in an earlier posting in this thread, this is indeed done in communist countries, by obligatory money-exchange to very bad exchange-rates and by issuing to you exchange coupons instead of the local money. However these exchange coupons at least offering you some special conditions compared to the locals, who have to pay with local money. Using that coupons especially in the former East European Communist system, gave you privileges.... Not like come first, served first.....You, as the foreigner, even entering as the last one...still served as the first, still got the best place, without lining up at all.....you were the priority guest, what we would call, you paid first class, and you have to be served as first class. In Thailand you are expected to pay up to 20 times more, without anything in return of it.....this is a fair pricing? Who is the rich tourist entering Thailand for vacation? Again it must be noticed, that by far not all Thais are poor, and I would say, the most foreign tourists entering Thailand are far away from calling them rich. They come only, because it is cheap....and for no other reason. A really rich foreigner, by international standards, will enter more likely Thailand as a businessman, but not as a tourist. Really rich means to spend your vacation in a de-luxe spa in Japan, or in your private villa in Hawaii or in your condominium in southern France, because you can buy land there without considering your citizenship. Really rich does not mean to go shopping in Thailand, but in a department store in London or in an exclusive boutique in Tokyo. Really rich does not mean to rent a jeep or motor cycle in Thailand, it means to own a heavy American car with a driver in Singapore or to arrive at your golf-club in the United States with your own private airplane. And for sure, rich does not mean to look for a Thai girl in a beer-bar in Pattaya.... and thinking about how to settle down somewhere there as cheap Charlie.... As an international rich gentleman, according to your wallet, you would buy your own yacht with an Italian or Swedish fashion-model on board.... To say it again, really rich people do not need Thailand as their destination for their holidays...... Dual pricing for various reasons, is not acceptable by international standards. Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opl Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 I do not agree with double pricing, and hope this is clear for everyone. My intention is to try to consider things from "their" point of view: - everyone is poor compared to a richer person. - everyone is rich compared to a poorer. For these countries, the only fact of being a tourist assimilates you to a wealthy person . When bargaining prices, you'll have the opportunity to appreciate how rich they think you are wether they take you for an american a swiss , a german, or "just a french". Same scale for different asian countries. Equal treatment regarding pricing , as well as fixed prices, are not traditional at all. Bargaining is traditional for them. Tourism imported "fixed prices", dual pricing is a compensation. Making profit as high as possible and fixing prices at psychologic purchase level are pure capitalism fundaments. Dealing with tourists is a business. If you talk about the equation [same level of service , same good = same price ], then I would suggest you to check how much your neighbour (even of same nationality) sitting on the same row on a plane did pay for his airfair ticket... there are so many reasons to explain this fact ... but the result remains. Ok, what we all dislike is "ethnical preference" as a protectionism measure ( land ownership laws i.e... ) , what THEY dislike is the idea of being easily "invaded" by foreigners just because their standards of living give them ability to pay . As far as I know, Japan, rich country, does not make it so easy to welcome immigrants... Why do so many foreigners think about retiring in LOS or elsewhere in a poorer country... maybe also because they think they have a chance keeping the same standard of living or even a better one ? All debates concerning fairness are biased as long as you do not consider points of view of both parts, it is a matter of balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxexile Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 what THEY dislike is the idea of being easily "invaded" by foreigners just because their standards of living give them ability to pay .invaded !!!!!! we have been invited. the tourism authority of thailand regularly advertises and promotes thailand worldwide. they actively encourage people to come and travel and live here. the selling points are the welcoming smiles, the food, the cheapness of the shopping and living here and the natural attractions. nowhere are we told that we will be expected to pay more because we are perceived as richer. we are invited to come here for the good value hotels, to have medical treatment here because it is cheaper than back home,for the low cost travel and food, its one of the big selling points. tourism is one of the country major earners of foriegn currency but all the thais i know find the dual pricing system as disgraceful as i do and are ashamed of their country for not stopping such a discriminatory policy. they especially dislike the way in which the pricing is implemented in such a way that most tourists dont even know that they are being overcharged. then I would suggest you to check how much your neighbour (even of same nationality) sitting on the same row on a plane did pay for his airfair ticket... there are so many reasons to explain this fact ... but the result remains. the person who got the cheapest seat was the one who could be bothered to shop around all the agents until they got the best price. the cheap seats are available to us all. its a fair system. Why do so many foreigners think about retiring in LOS or elsewhere in a poorer country... maybe also because they think they have a chance keeping the same standard of living or even a better one ? exactly, and that is how it should be. when in my home country i shop around for the best prices and best value for money. its human nature to seek out the best return on your money. thailand has a great combination of good living conditions and mostly good value pricing, couple that with friendly and easy to get along with people, good food and weather and who wouldnt want to spend some time here. just look at the number of thais who go abroad for 10,15 or 20 years and then when they have a pocketful of money decide to come back because its cheaper and better here than in the west. but charging more because we may have more was not,is not nor will ever be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opl Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 Taxexile, I agree, this is not the point. Tourists are invited to come to spend money. As long as they do, they are welcome. And Thailand's Art of living makes you feel you would like to live there. It's everyone's dream to find the place to settle you feel at home. Double pricing makes you feel you are not, and that is what is disappointing and it is unfair. This makes no matter of discussion among persons coming from the same part of the world. I started with " maybe they see it this way"... and guess they would see it another way if even non rich persons form LOS where able to travel and go around the world as easy as westeners, even not rich, lets'say even more students, do since decades now. For a concrete example .. I rent a motorbike from the same person since years, he always tell me he gives me thai price or even better because I'm a regular customer, almost what he would call a "friendship price". His motorbike are old but I would never go to another place, I feel I would betray this relation. He started to buy bigger motorbikes to earn more money and asked me how much , we in our country would have to pay for it and how much would be ok for him to ask for. Figure yourself in the same position and try to answer... Then of course he had to fix a price in case thai custmers would ask for... Discussing with him, he said: "in your country, even if you do not work, you get money.. you get paid during vacation time..." even if I explain him that house rental takes 1/3 part of salary , taxes even more , and so on ... our standard of living appears like privileged. And is. His dream is to go to Myanmar to see U-Bein bridge, he says he can not afford to realise it. I think things would be different if thai people could travel as easy as we do instead of seeing just tourists coming to their country and spend money, sometimes without consideration ( why bargain for 100 baht when you can afford a hotel at 1500 TB rate per night and stay for a month..) .. as I said , that is the way they perceive it. This , at individual scale. Government policy concerning tourism and how to take advantage from money coming from abroad is of no equivalent cynism , or politically correct : pragmatic. As long as you choose to live in a country that is not yours , you'll always have something to pay in return , call it discrimination. And that's anywhere, whatever the means. Dual pricing is the most evident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 Ok, what we all dislike is "ethnical preference" as a protectionism measure ( land ownership laws i.e... ) , what THEY dislike is the idea of being easily "invaded" by foreigners just because their standards of living give them ability to pay .As far as I know, Japan, rich country, does not make it so easy to welcome immigrants... Reading your posting, I think, you are quite wrong informed about many facts, but let me explain some points: 1- It is a difference, if a Thai is an immigrant, looking for labour, sending money back to his homeland from Japan - or if a Japanese is a tourist, bringing his own money from Japan and spend it in Thailand Japan: rich country and Thailand: poor country....this does not mean, that all Japanese are rich and all Thai are so poor. I know personally Thais, who are earning more than my wife and I together..... 2- Japan, with 125 million people on these small islands, never welcome foreign workers without special labour skills, and never will invite you as a tourist... This is an industrial land, and invites businessmen. Japanese local tourism does not really fit the foreigners, is based on family and group-travel, and truly they do not like foreigners with them.... However, if you do so as a foreigner, the price of the tour will be exactly the same as what they would charge to the Japanese. 3- As a tourist you will not really find very much here in Japan, this is just a stopover for some days for visitors between Asia and the USA, I would say - but citizens of many countries, which have an advanced living standard and agreements with Japan, can enter Japan as tourist for 2 x 3 months without any visa at all, this means you can stay up to half a year, without leaving Japan. I never heard about a visa-free tourist in Thailand, who might stay 6 months without being forced leaving the country, despite owning enough foreign money to pay all expenses for his stay. 4- Immigration: There is no difference in treatment between foreign men or foreign women, who are in personal relationship with a Japanese national - and a Japanese permanent resident (my visa status is even independent of my Japanese wife) can buy his own house, his own land, can own his business like a Japanese national. There are clear guidelines how to do that. My permanent resident permit was granted 1986 and I had to pay approx. baht 2500,- for all and everything..... 5- As I said, in my previous posting foreigners, who are really rich by international terms, are spending their vacations somewhere else.....No need to go to Thailand for them... However my family here in Japan, we are just average wage earners, and so we consider retirement in Thailand, why not? A really rich Japanese will make the trip to his private villa in Hawaii or Australia, and will not consider to buy any land in Thailand....for what? Why should he do that? His shopping will be in Tokyo and Singapore, his vacation will be in Hawaii and Australia, and for his business, he will look for really cheap labour in Vietnam or in China..... Just one more remark: Thailand is cheap and some people there are poor, but not so cheap and poor anymore compared to many other countries in this world. There is no excuse for dual pricing, and if Thailand wants to catch up with the advanced developed countries, they have to abolish such *customs* Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 I think things would be different if thai people could travel as easy as we do instead of seeing just tourists coming to their country and spend money, sometimes without consideration Poor people cannot go anywhere, and this is true in Thailand, South America, Africa, Eastern Europe...and so on... Thailand is no exception, and this is no reasonable explication for dual pricing, fully accepted by the government. It is not true, that Thai people, who are able to pay for their trips, cannot go so easily as all the other tourists in this world to overseas destinations. Thai people can easily obtain a passport, can easily exit and enter Thailand and many Thais are doing so, especially the well-off Thais and their family members, and those, who have relatives living and working overseas. As far as I know, about 15 percent out of the Thai population are financially able to do so - this means about 9 million people out of a population of approx. 63 million Thais. For a *poor* nation, this is really not such a small group of local Thais, who are enjoying a remarkable good living standard..... Own house with large garden, own car, mobile phone, TV and video, digital cameras, maid, gardener and driver, computer with internet, beautiful furniture, aircondition, any kind of clothings..... I know poor (rich) Thais as my friends and I envy them.....I... the (poor) rich Japanese resident .....I am dreaming about such a *poor* life.....(spending money without consideration......) Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opl Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 Yohann, I do not compare Japan to Thailand or Viët Nam , I do not compare Las Vegas to Bombay neither. Anyway, if you want to emigrate to Japan, you'll have to show you'll be able financially, as well as Thailand is proceeding. I do not quite understand why you refer to " really rich tourists" at all, they won't discuss paying unfair prices, they don't care. If you earn your salary in Japan and come to live some time in Thailand, then even from average level you'll become rich. That's it, that's magic. If you are from medium class in Thailand and spend some time in Japan, you'll be classified poor. This is a case of "enrichment without cause". ( I'm not sure this is understandable.. sorry for my English). You say "if Thailand wants to catch up with the advanced developed countries they have to abolish such *customs*" - this is a vast question to discuss, interesting, but quite open ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 If you earn your salary in Japan and come to live some time in Thailand, then even from average level you'll become rich. Hi, English is not my native language either.... do not worry about that. 1- Dual pricing is acceptable for me (or call it a discount) for various people, like the olds, the handicapped, the students, the women with small children..... but it is absolutely not acceptable for me because I am a foreigner, and the others are the locals..... This does not matter, if this is in Japan or in Thailand or anywhere else.... This so openly dual pricing of foreigners against locals, fully accepted by the Thai government with a price difference of 20 x higher I have seen only in Thailand. It must be noticed, that to pay 20 x more than the local, does not mean, that you as a foreigner will receive some kind of extra service in return....something like a tourist guide or interpreter, or extra drinks, or best seats, priority when entering an exhibition or whatever.....something to feel like as a first class traveller, because you paid considerable more than the others... Just to pay more, without anything in return, this indeed I have seen only in Thailand. 2- What means to BECOME rich? I am spending my own money in Thailand, I do not earn money out of Thailand.... it is Thailand, which is earning money out of the foreign tourist. 3- Or do you mean, FEELING rich? ......Our friend is a Thai national, living in Bangkok, and is earning over baht 200.000,- per month, entering Japan regularly, she still has more to spend than an average Japanese..... She feels to be rich in Japan as well as in Thailand.... 4- So what is with these 9 million well-off Thai people? Why are they not a subject to the dual pricing in Thailand.....They have more money and more rights out of their money compared to all these foreign tourists..... They can do all as Thai nationals, what foreign tourists cannot, but why do you not target them? 5- And again, a really rich foreigner is not interested in Thailand....He goes to anywhere between France and Japan, between Singapore and USA .......there is no reason for such people to enter Thailand.....they do not FEEL to be rich only in Thailand, they do not BECOME rich in Thailand by spending their money, they ARE already rich and this everywhere in this world....believe me.... Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opl Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 Hi again Johann! I've been asked for farang prices in Indonesia, Philippines.... So I know how it feels to be upset by this. Some times I did not used the transportation ( equivalent to song taews) refusing to pay 10x or more .. after that I understood I just had to get in and pay when getting out, and the local fare only without discussion. I understand most people in the forum care for principles that are not respected in those countries. Name it "customs", bad habits, easy-lazy expedients.. short-time views, whatever. The fact is that THEY definitively do not consider foreigners deserving the same as locals. Concerning the really rich ones, my opinion is that they are - and could feel- at home everywhere , and tend to gather in the same secluded areas. Well , you are a "really rich" before being any national ( I hope this remark will make no-one angry). Wealth appreciation is also subject to relativity, that is all I tried to say. My purpose does not concern the 5-10 - even 20% of the population, but the others, especially those dealing with tourists. The difficulty we have to understand each other in this discussion is that each of us sticks to his references, though I think, we do agree on the subject. I would like to thank you for your intervention , yesterday concerning a specific topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 Hi, OPL 1- Yes, I agree, to be *really rich* is first, and then comes the nationality... anyway, if you really have money, there is always a way to get another nationality or at least a permanent residence permit in many countries of this world..... it cannot be compared to the ordinary people..... 2- I will be in Thailand 10-24/April/2004 and I will enjoy the stay there..... after 30 years dual pricing is not a problem for us anymore. I have Japanese family and Thai friends..... driving a car with a Thai number.... ok, THEY get out of the car, buying the tickets and I stay in the car, pulling my sun-cap deep into my face.... As you know, the Japanese are looking very very similar to the Thai....just give the cashier the money for 5 tickets for the Thai - do not speak a single word... and this will make the Thai price for us all.... If they want to cheat us, we know, how we cheat back.....(this is also Thailand....you might try it out as a foreigner!) 3- In the hotels I am using, there is only one price for me, which is the minimum price, as I know the staff und building there for many years.... It is not good in Asia (not only Thailand, but also Japan) to change places, which are proven to be very good for you and where they know you, as we have to care about rather old people coming with us. I am using since about 15 years always the same hotels. During last summer the hotel-invoice at the resort in South Thailand was a 180.000,- baht total, and the hotel knows, if there are any troubles/cheating/bad treatment, we might not show up the following years.... so no problem about that all. 4- About dual pricings, I think, there might be only a changement, if the Thai government goes ahead with a deep reform in this matter..... entrance fee: ticket per person, not relevant to whom hotels: a list with the maximum possible price, in all rooms, so you can negotiate... restaurants: bi-lingual menu and one price..... and so on.... As long as there is no obligat rule about it, nothing will change.... However this *custom* is bad and should be abolished, it is not acceptable for a country, which tries to catch up and to be accepted as an advancing developing nation. The problem is, that this is not done by some small dealers or individuals, like taxi-drivers, street-vendors or small food-stalls, this is no problem, expected, and every tourist will understand that. But in Thailand this is a government accepted way of marketing even in big hotels, international restaurants, public ferries, bus transportation companies, national parks, even the famous crocodil-farm....the temples like the Arun, the Kings Palast.... everywhere....everything..... And yes, you are right, mentioning, that even foreign owned businesses are doing their best, to keep it running in the same way.... foreigners often co-operate with Thai owners to rip off tourists using the dual pricing.... Anyway, I am looking forward to be out of japan for vacation in Thailand next week. Best regards, Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxexile Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 think things would be different if thai people could travel as easy as we do instead of seeing just tourists coming to their country and spend money, sometimes without consideration ( why bargain for 100 baht when you can afford a hotel at 1500 TB rate per night and stay for a month..) .. as I said , that is the way they perceive it. This , at individual scale. thais that i know that have travelled or lived in the west usually return to thailand with a very different perception of us falangs. their eyes are opened to the fact that money is as hard to come by in the west as it is here for most people and we have to budget our salaries just like they do, and that poor people in the west probably have a harder time of it than most poor here notwithstanding the benefit system. i am talking about thais who have visited the uk. but taking all things into consideration just about all of them would opt to live in thailand rather than the west. better food, and just so much more relaxed and sabaay sabaay. (and cheaper of course.) but even with the occasional run in with double pricing which i can choose not to support, i have no wish to return to the uk other than short visits to family and friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 I am talking about thais who have visited the uk.But taking all things into consideration just about all of them would opt to live in thailand rather than the west. Very true! Just think about winter time, winter clothings, expenses for heating your home.... It is still easy for you in the UK, but I am from Austria, just spend a night there in the mountains, covered by some meters of snow and ice, and compare it with any sandy beach in Thailand..... I would say, dual pricing, especially during winter-season, does not really change my mind, it is a bit more comfortable to live in Thailand.... Now living in Japan with my Japanese family, but really interested to retire in Thailand, with or without dual pricing. Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opl Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 Thanks to Yohan and Taxexile for this discussion, Enjoy your holiday , you are lucky , Yohan, I'm fond of Japan sense of esthetic! Taxexile, I found this website with plans and construction prices: houses: plans and prices examples Best regards, Opl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meemiathai Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 think things would be different if thai people could travel as easy as we do instead of seeing just tourists coming to their country and spend money, sometimes without consideration ( why bargain for 100 baht when you can afford a hotel at 1500 TB rate per night and stay for a month..) .. as I said , that is the way they perceive it. This , at individual scale. thais that i know that have travelled or lived in the west usually return to thailand with a very different perception of us falangs. their eyes are opened to the fact that money is as hard to come by in the west as it is here for most people and we have to budget our salaries just like they do, and that poor people in the west probably have a harder time of it than most poor here notwithstanding the benefit system. i am talking about thais who have visited the uk. I can't disagree more! How can we even compare the UK to Thailand. See what one can do with 1 pound in the UK and 1 pound in Thailand. What are the average wages between the Brits and the Thais? Come on! people, be honest! Are there more Thais visiting the UK than the Brits visiting Thailand. Can there even be any comparison? (I am sure even a poor Brit could still visit Thailand just if he tries. But for an average Thai to visit the UK? It's probably the same for me to go to the moon!) It is impossible to discuss at all if in your(all of you) mind you think that foreigners and Thais have the same purchasing power or even similar. And for Yohan, I am sorry that I have to say, a lot of your so-called principles does not really make sense or are self-centered. Opl, I am very amazed by your deep understanding of this matter. Very, very impressive! ps I am not saying I agree 100% with dual pricing. But I think I understand why it is happening and do not think that it is really that unfair. There are far more unfair things happening in the other parts of the world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 What are the average wages between the Brits and the Thais?But for an average Thai to visit the UK? It's probably the same for me to go to the moon!) And for Yohan, I am sorry that I have to say, a lot of your so-called principles does not really make sense or are self-centered. Meemiathai, I wonder, if you can explain me what economic principles I mentioned do not really make sense...... To compare the salaries - this is what you are doing - is incorrect. You have to compare the SALARY and the EXPENSES of the same country.. You mention something about an *average Thai* - please can you explain to me, what is for you an average Thai? Travel to overseas: it is absolutely not true, that Thai people are not travelling overseas....at least 9 million Thais enjoy a living standard, which is considered as excellent....and they can afford all and everything.... This includes overseas travel as well. You never mention these really rich Thais......Do you envy only the foreigners? Why do you exclude your own people, who are rich as well? Dual pricing: I like to ask you, what you would include in dual pricings?.... what about the gasoline....if the car is driven by a foreigner, or what about an apartment registered to a foreigner....should he pay more for water and electricity? what about shopping in a department store.... or a cinema..... why not to charge more? or for train-tickets? Dual pricing, often to an extreme of 20 x more the regular price, government tolerated and accepted, based only on the fact that one is a Thai, and the other a foreigner, has to be abolished.... no other way... call me self centered..... Dual pricing has to be abolished Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meemiathai Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 To compare the salaries - this is what you are doing - is incorrect. You have to compare the SALARY and the EXPENSES of the same country..Well, which country are we comparing here? Russia? UK? You are not trying to tell me that an average Brit's quality of life(materially) is no better than an average Thai, are you? Not to mention that "to compare the SALARY and the EXPENSES" is even irrelevant here. We are talking about the 2 countries' people's capability to visit each other's country and what they are capable of doing there. Furthermore we are talking about people who in fact are capable of travelling. And for this issue, to compare the salaries of them is - CORRECT. Can a taxi driver(London) go on a holiday in Bangkok? Can a taxi driver(Bangkok) go on a holiday in London? Can a ...??? Can a ...??? Who cares if they live like shit in their own countries? It is their countries' own problem.An "average Thai" is a person you meet in the streets of Thailand everyday. Travel to overseas: it is absolutely not true, that Thai people are not travelling overseas....at least 9 million Thais enjoy a living standard, which is considered as excellent....and they can afford all and everything.... This includes overseas travel as well.You never mention these really rich Thais......Do you envy only the foreigners? Why do you exclude your own people, who are rich as well? 15% of the population? I wonder where you get this from? Does this include the people who are actually leaving their own country sadly just to become cheap labours in other 1st world countries? Does it include the ones who are selling their bodies? Does it include the ones who are only rich enough just to cross the border to Laos which everything is quite the same to their own countries?(Meaning not much to see as a tourist) There is no need to go to an extent to say that I envy anyone. I envy no one in this world. But just think that this is quite an unfair world. I feel sorry for people anywhere (including London or USA) that are less fortune and/or are treated unfairly so as not to be able to live a comfortable life. BTW, I am not Thai. Half farang half chinese in fact and living in HK.Dual pricing: I like to ask you, what you would include in dual pricings?....what about the gasoline....if the car is driven by a foreigner, or what about an apartment registered to a foreigner....should he pay more for water and electricity? what about shopping in a department store.... or a cinema..... why not to charge more? or for train-tickets? It is not what I would include in dual pricings. It is up the Thais. I am not arguing to say that dual pricing is absolutely correct. But just trying to discuss so to understand why it is happening which in fact is not as unfair as what people are talking about here.(I think) But isn't it fair enough to charge foreigners if they want to see their country and enjoy it? For the Thais paying less, do we really have the right to stick our noses into how they are treated in THEIR OWN COUNTRY? A lot of places worldwide, charge children less than adults. Why? Should we then be arguing about that this is age discrimination? Isn't that the principle of "free trade", you go elsewhere if you're not satisfied with the prices?Dual pricing, often to an extreme of 20 x more the regular price,Please, use a few seconds and think, then say again. "often" "20 x more"? Is that true? I really didn't realize it! Even if it is, I still won't give a ###### if it is still 10 x less than what I pay in my country.(country? well, HK )What are we up to here? Are we trying to make those places(such as the national parks or the zoos) charge the Thais the same as the farangs so that they would never even be able to afford? Isn't that a bit cruel? Aren't they miserable enough seeing farangs walking around with their pockets full of bahts equivalent to months of their salaries? And they have to serve us as well? Just look at how a waitress in restaurants serves a group of Asians in the West!(I'm sure not many of you farangs notice the differences.) It is understandable to me that why you guys are complaining. And I totally agree that you have the right to, like building such a website. But I also think I have the right to disagree.(not meaning I didn't) I apologize to everyone here if I have been rude in any ways. But it is sometimes due to emotions generated by seeing the inequalities in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meemiathai Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 but all the thais i know find the dual pricing system as disgraceful as i do and are ashamed of their country for not stopping such a discriminatory policy.they especially dislike the way in which the pricing is implemented in such a way that most tourists dont even know that they are being overcharged. I would say some if not all says so because you are their friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 To compare the salaries - this is what you are doing - is incorrect. You have to compare the SALARY and the EXPENSES of the same country..Well, which country are we comparing here? Russia? UK? You are not trying to tell me that an average Brit's quality of life(materially) is no better than an average Thai, are you? Not to mention that "to compare the SALARY and the EXPENSES" is even irrelevant here. This is it what I want to explain you: If a person has a salary, and has to pay the half of his salary for rent of his accomodation, in fact he has only the half salary left for spending. Regardless if in Thailand or in Japan. You cannot take just the salary, you have to deduct all expenses, and only, what is then left over, can be used for vacation, amusements.... I can assure you, there are many people in Japan, in the EU and in USA, where really nothing is left for spending on vacation or de-luxe items.... as a fact, they cannot enjoy vacation and have a very modest life, often deep in debits. I think, you widely overestimate the difference of income in Thailand and in other countries.... and you widely underestimate the living standard of the Thai people - considering purchasing power, the difference between Thailand - Japan is 5 x Thailand - EU is 4 x What is an average Thai? Most of my Thai friends are earning quite a lot, somewhat between baht 80.000,- and 200.000,-, anyway I know a family, who has even more than that (over baht 400.000,- monthly) However these Thais agree with me, that they are NOT the average Thais.... huge housings, garden, swimmingpool, cars with drivers, maid and servants..... The person, who has the lowest income I know personally, is a young woman (25 years) and she gets now over baht 16.000,- - This makes about considering the purchasing power an equivalent of yen 240.000,- ...yes, this is about the salary, they pay here in Japan for the same work....(like my daughter, who is also 25 years old) If I see the home of this Thai lady, and then compare it with the home of a Japanese office girl..... I do not see so much difference....television-set, video-rental, some clothings, motor-cycle, mobile phone....... A simple lunch here in Tokyo is at least baht 300,- and equivalent in Bangkok you might find some simple food for 60 baht, and the Tokyo girl pays for her 20 sqm room about yen 120.000,- ....should be the equivalent of baht 8000,- in Bangkok.. Neither the Tokyo girl (for example my daughter) nor the Bangkok girl are considering themselves (your own words) living like shit..... Just as a local average, as many others....Quoting you again.....they do not consider to sell their bodies....what a nonsense. I can only recommend you to look around and check carefully, if you really have the impression, that ALL Thais are so poor..... There are wealthy Thais indeed, (not just average Thais with baht 15.000,- to baht 30.000,- per month) and there are a lot of them..... They cannot pay 200 baht entrance fee? Out of baht 15.000,- salary? This is very strange......Then tell me please, from where all the poor Thais are coming you see shopping in the department stores? Or sitting in the restaurants in expensive hotels? Or playing golf all time? Or do you think, the cars in the street in Bangkok are only owned by the foreigners? And look at the many beautiful private housings everywhere in Thailand....this is all owned by the *poor* Thais? Yes, indeed, many Thais are not poor at all, and believe me, they can pay 200 baht entrance fees..... Yes, dual pricing shows often remarkable differences, and 10 baht for the Thai might become baht 200 for the foreigner. This is 20 x more... But dual pricing is not only for some entrance fees, it might apply, suddenly, unexpected, without any information to the foreigner even for transportation, hotel-rates, restaurants... so what is next? gasoline for the car of the tourist, or electricity for his condominium, or train tickets, or cinema???? Dual pricing makes only confusion among the foreigners, and I doubt, if this is really such a good business for Thailand....of course foreigners pointing at the Thai people to be dishonest, cheating, hiding the true prices by writing them only in Thai....... Some money more, but image of Thailand will not improve with such *customs* Dual pricing is outdated and Thailand should abolish it......... Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 but all the thais i know find the dual pricing system as disgraceful as i do and are ashamed of their country for not stopping such a discriminatory policy.they especially dislike the way in which the pricing is implemented in such a way that most tourists dont even know that they are being overcharged. I would say some if not all says so because you are their friend. I do not think, that this is the case.... The Thai is quite open for argumentation. Or do you think, all Thais are supporting dual pricing? Not all Thais like to bargain around and prefer a fix price for all and for everybody and this includes also the foreigners... (everybody includes the foreigner!) Thais have pride and often feel like a *beggar*, when they have to pay baht 10,- for themselves and for the foreigner, who is invited by them, they have to pay baht 200,- Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecat Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 This dual pricing thing is "killing" quite a few people in this forum, this is probably why most of us do not reply anymore. Do you think abolishing the dual pricing will make the life of the Thai people better? Will it make Thailand a more developped country, caring more for its poor people? Or is there in Thailand more meaningful fight to fight that this one, if you REALLY care about Thailand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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