I have issues with the AP article regarding one blank cartridge in one rifle as my understanding is that there is blanks in all the rifles except one which has the live round and it is a wicked load that does massive damage to the chest cavity thereby ensuring death. Quote: The shooters' identities are kept anonymous, and one of their rifles is loaded with a blank round so nobody knows which officer killed the inmate."" It should read no one knows who had the live round and distroyed the chest cavity.

I have issues with the AP article regarding one blank cartridge in one rifle as my understanding is that there is blanks in all the rifles except one which has the live round and it is a wicked load that does massive damage to the chest cavity thereby ensuring death. Quote: The shooters' identities are kept anonymous, and one of their rifles is loaded with a blank round so nobody knows which officer killed the inmate."" It should read no one knows who had the live round and distroyed the chest cavity.

Maybe the metal state of the shooters masks the fact, but I don't think a blank will generate the same (or any) recoil as a live round. The shooter at least could know (if he's paying attention) that his was the blank, and all others that theirs wasn't.

The Death Penalty never works. More you execute more you promote homicides. Compare the States of US and their bill.

Texas is at the top for killing even proven innocents.. *Thaksin made his PHd in extrajuridicial killing where?

The death penalty works perfectly. Nobody executed ever commits a crime again.

Or is actually able to be declared innocent and still be alive at some future date. We've had quite a few high profile cases of overturned guilty verdicts in the UK, since the abolition of the death penalty.

And a whole rash coming forward in USA since DNA has been able to prove a number of innocents executed. The number of people wrongly executed in USA is a stand-alone reason for abolition of capital punishment. Remember, while there is life there is hope.

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The Death Penalty never works. More you execute more you promote homicides. Compare the States of US and their bill.
Texas is at the top for killing even proven innocents.. *Thaksin made his PHd in extrajuridicial killing where?

The death penalty works perfectly. Nobody executed ever commits a crime again.

Or is actually able to be declared innocent and still be alive at some future date. We've had quite a few high profile cases of overturned guilty verdicts in the UK, since the abolition of the death penalty.

I'm a strong death penalty proponent, but when a conviction turns out to have been false (any conviction for anything, not just capital crimes; but NOT talking about acquittals here - just convictions), someone should be taking a hard look at the investigators and prosecutors that were involved in the case. If there are any indications of exculpatory evidence having been overlooked or concealed, leads suggestive of innocence not as aggressively pursued as those pointing to guilt, or criminal investigations not being impartially and professionally conducted, then the officials involved, ALL officials involved, should be vigorously prosecuted at the felony level and severely punished themselves. And in the case of a capital crime, such misconduct should be classified as attempted premeditated murder itself. Justice depends on a fair and impartial process all down the line, not just in the courtroom and not just by judge & jury, and the incentivization of police, investigators and prosecutors simply to get convictions at all costs is an abuse of the public trust and NOT due process.

Like this one? http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/24/arizona-debra-milke-cleared-22-years-death-row

I'm sure that when this woman was (wrongly) convicted there would have been a jackal chorus howling for her immediate execution.

In light of this case and the very may like it, I suppose the only argument that could be made for immediate execution of the death condemned is that the State must proceed with the execution of the innocent in order to deter the bad intentioned. It's either that, or subscribe to the notion that due process is always served - a proposition whose truth is as likely as the marriage of Ted Cruze and Hillary Clinton.

The Death Penalty never works. More you execute more you promote homicides. Compare the States of US and their bill.

Texas is at the top for killing even proven innocents.. *Thaksin made his PHd in extrajuridicial killing where?

The death penalty works perfectly. Nobody executed ever commits a crime again.

And executed innocent people never get the chance to prove it!! How many incarcerated condemned to death in the US have been found to be innocent? No doubt about it, some countries love to shoot from the hip, and lip.

I have issues with the AP article regarding one blank cartridge in one rifle as my understanding is that there is blanks in all the rifles except one which has the live round and it is a wicked load that does massive damage to the chest cavity thereby ensuring death. Quote: The shooters' identities are kept anonymous, and one of their rifles is loaded with a blank round so nobody knows which officer killed the inmate."" It should read no one knows who had the live round and distroyed the chest cavity.

Maybe the metal state of the shooters masks the fact, but I don't think a blank will generate the same (or any) recoil as a live round. The shooter at least could know (if he's paying attention) that his was the blank, and all others that theirs wasn't.

Obviously a gun owner or expert

Utah's firing squad: How does it work?

Quick version.

Ready Aim Fire.

Job done

The Death Penalty never works. More you execute more you promote homicides. Compare the States of US and their bill.

Texas is at the top for killing even proven innocents.. *Thaksin made his PHd in extrajuridicial killing where?

The death penalty works perfectly. Nobody executed ever commits a crime again.

Or is actually able to be declared innocent and still be alive at some future date. We've had quite a few high profile cases of overturned guilty verdicts in the UK, since the abolition of the death penalty.

And a whole rash coming forward in USA since DNA has been able to prove a number of innocents executed. The number of people wrongly executed in USA is a stand-alone reason for abolition of capital punishment. Remember, while there is life there is hope.

I am sorry, but I must have missed the proof you mention.

The Death Penalty never works. More you execute more you promote homicides. Compare the States of US and their bill.

Texas is at the top for killing even proven innocents.. *Thaksin made his PHd in extrajuridicial killing where?

The death penalty works perfectly. Nobody executed ever commits a crime again.

And executed innocent people never get the chance to prove it!! How many incarcerated condemned to death in the US have been found to be innocent? No doubt about it, some countries love to shoot from the hip, and lip.

The condemned get exhaustive mandatory appeals

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The Death Penalty never works. More you execute more you promote homicides. Compare the States of US and their bill.
Texas is at the top for killing even proven innocents.. *Thaksin made his PHd in extrajuridicial killing where?

The death penalty works perfectly. Nobody executed ever commits a crime again.

And executed innocent people never get the chance to prove it!! How many incarcerated condemned to death in the US have been found to be innocent? No doubt about it, some countries love to shoot from the hip, and lip.

The condemned get exhaustive mandatory appeals

So I suppose the claim is that whilst it's possible to condemn an innocent person to death, it's not possible that they're executed.

Have there been any post mortem appeals against an execution? Probably not, given who get's their ticket punched.

Might well be a few expert ''volunteers ''from Thailand if the assassination trade eases off a bit in the future or the police do not need their firearms expert Chalerm junior, he has proved handy with a gun in the past

The death penalty isn't usually given on a one-off crime. The people that get it often have very long rap sheets, these often involve multiple murders.

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The Death Penalty never works. More you execute more you promote homicides. Compare the States of US and their bill.
Texas is at the top for killing even proven innocents.. *Thaksin made his PHd in extrajuridicial killing where?

The death penalty works perfectly. Nobody executed ever commits a crime again.

And executed innocent people never get the chance to prove it!! How many incarcerated condemned to death in the US have been found to be innocent? No doubt about it, some countries love to shoot from the hip, and lip.

The condemned get exhaustive mandatory appeals

So I suppose the claim is that whilst it's possible to condemn an innocent person to death, it's not possible that they're executed.

Have there been any post mortem appeals against an execution? Probably not, given who get's their ticket punched.

Non Sequitur

The death penalty works perfectly. Nobody executed ever commits a crime again.

Or is actually able to be declared innocent and still be alive at some future date. We've had quite a few high profile cases of overturned guilty verdicts in the UK, since the abolition of the death penalty.

And a whole rash coming forward in USA since DNA has been able to prove a number of innocents executed. The number of people wrongly executed in USA is a stand-alone reason for abolition of capital punishment. Remember, while there is life there is hope.

I am sorry, but I must have missed the proof you mention.

http://www.innocenceproject.org

329 people exonerated by this project so far

The death penalty works perfectly. Nobody executed ever commits a crime again.

Or is actually able to be declared innocent and still be alive at some future date. We've had quite a few high profile cases of overturned guilty verdicts in the UK, since the abolition of the death penalty.

And a whole rash coming forward in USA since DNA has been able to prove a number of innocents executed. The number of people wrongly executed in USA is a stand-alone reason for abolition of capital punishment. Remember, while there is life there is hope.

I am sorry, but I must have missed the proof you mention.

http://www.innocenceproject.org

329 people exonerated by this project so far

I am still missing it. That number appears to refer to people (alive) that were exonerated, not people legally executed who were later proven innocent.

I have issues with the AP article regarding one blank cartridge in one rifle as my understanding is that there is blanks in all the rifles except one which has the live round and it is a wicked load that does massive damage to the chest cavity thereby ensuring death. Quote: The shooters' identities are kept anonymous, and one of their rifles is loaded with a blank round so nobody knows which officer killed the inmate."" It should read no one knows who had the live round and distroyed the chest cavity.

Maybe the metal state of the shooters masks the fact, but I don't think a blank will generate the same (or any) recoil as a live round. The shooter at least could know (if he's paying attention) that his was the blank, and all others that theirs wasn't.

Obviously a gun owner or expert

He's right though. Starting a lead bullet instantly at supersonic speed down the barrel causes "an equal and opposite" reaction which is a kick of the gun. Firing a blank doesn't much. I wouldn't be fooled into thinking I fired a blank. I don't know what that exercise is all about.

http://www.innocenceproject.org

329 people exonerated by this project so far

I am still missing it. That number appears to refer to people (alive) that were exonerated, not people legally executed who were later proven innocent.

Granted. I did not read the thread closely enough to make that distinction. However, I think you might be intentionally obtuse on this. Is not the point the same? Those 329 people, if not exonerated, would have been executed. Wrongly. Post Mortem exoneration seems to be quite morbidly useless, at least for the deceased. So the point is that such mistakes may not be corrected.

The death penalty works perfectly. Nobody executed ever commits a crime again.

Or is actually able to be declared innocent and still be alive at some future date. We've had quite a few high profile cases of overturned guilty verdicts in the UK, since the abolition of the death penalty.

And a whole rash coming forward in USA since DNA has been able to prove a number of innocents executed. The number of people wrongly executed in USA is a stand-alone reason for abolition of capital punishment. Remember, while there is life there is hope.

I am sorry, but I must have missed the proof you mention.

http://www.innocenceproject.org

329 people exonerated by this project so far

I am still missing it. That number appears to refer to people (alive) that were exonerated, not people legally executed who were later proven innocent.

It's enough proof that the lack of absolute certainty in the system is enough (for some) not to justify an absolute end.

--------------

I don't pretend to have answer on this subject, I perhaps sit on the fence, judgement and opinion altering with my thoughts and mood...

This is never going to be a right and wrong subject, a line is always crossed, there will always be variables, exceptions and mistakes.

This subject requires intelligent discussion / opinion, emotion needs to be removed which is almost impossible in such discussions, after all, we all value life (or we should), but should we value the life of someone who doesn't value the life of another?

Then if we don't value the life of someone who doesn't value the life of another, aren't we also not valuing the life of another? I'm sure you get the conundrum here, as I am equally sure many can get past it as I well can. Some people just don't deserve to be here, most are in agreement with this sentiment, there also needs to be sufficient incentive as a form of prevention.

Where there is absolute certainty the Inert Gas Chamber seems the most humane, but does it damage potential donor organs?

Also, how can absolute certainty of guilt always be assured? have we yet found a fool-proof system?

I don't believe the families of victims should be given an opportunity for vengeance / revenge - Their pain is one of loss, feeding vengeance and anger does not ease loss. The law already protects families from sentencing decisions for a very good reason.

http://www.innocenceproject.org

329 people exonerated by this project so far

I am still missing it. That number appears to refer to people (alive) that were exonerated, not people legally executed who were later proven innocent.

Granted. I did not read the thread closely enough to make that distinction. However, I think you might be intentionally obtuse on this. Is not the point the same? Those 329 people, if not exonerated, would have been executed. Wrongly. Post Mortem exoneration seems to be quite morbidly useless, at least for the deceased. So the point is that such mistakes may not be corrected.

Fallacious argument.

Any cases of innocent people lawfully executed? Exonerated people who are alive show that the system actually worked.

http://www.innocenceproject.org

329 people exonerated by this project so far

I am still missing it. That number appears to refer to people (alive) that were exonerated, not people legally executed who were later proven innocent.

Granted. I did not read the thread closely enough to make that distinction. However, I think you might be intentionally obtuse on this. Is not the point the same? Those 329 people, if not exonerated, would have been executed. Wrongly. Post Mortem exoneration seems to be quite morbidly useless, at least for the deceased. So the point is that such mistakes may not be corrected.

Fallacious argument.

Any cases of innocent people lawfully executed? Exonerated people who are alive show that the system actually worked.

Who fights to exonerate a dead person?

I'm sure there are some, but I'd also guess that the fight is a lot stronger and carried much further from the bench of a living 'innocent' on death row.

http://www.innocenceproject.org

329 people exonerated by this project so far

I am still missing it. That number appears to refer to people (alive) that were exonerated, not people legally executed who were later proven innocent.

Granted. I did not read the thread closely enough to make that distinction. However, I think you might be intentionally obtuse on this. Is not the point the same? Those 329 people, if not exonerated, would have been executed. Wrongly. Post Mortem exoneration seems to be quite morbidly useless, at least for the deceased. So the point is that such mistakes may not be corrected.

Fallacious argument.

Any cases of innocent people lawfully executed? Exonerated people who are alive show that the system actually worked.

You don't identify the fallacy. You use rhetorical devices to avoid the issue I think.

The Innocence Project and similar initiatives are not part of the system, which does definitely not work.

"There is no systematic method to determine the accuracy of a criminal conviction" from the Abstract o fthe National Academy of Sciences report on Rate of False Convictions of Criminal Defendants who are Sentenced to Death http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7230.abstract

Perhaps someone will find some facts to demonstrate that people have been exonerated after execution. I vaguely remember reading reports of such and I may be able to track those thoughts down in time. In any case, my original point remains. Your point is moot and does not adequately defend your position. And you do not demonstrate any fallacy in my argument.

Quite an extensive list of wrongfully executed people at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution

I haven't reviewed all the list or assessed the relevance of the information to this debate but at first glance there are people in the US form the 90's on the list. At least a couple. So you don't have to reach back into the dim past for examples.

In this day and age why can't they set up a machine gun with pin point accuracy linked to a computer and simply press a button?

http://www.innocenceproject.org

329 people exonerated by this project so far

I am still missing it. That number appears to refer to people (alive) that were exonerated, not people legally executed who were later proven innocent.

Granted. I did not read the thread closely enough to make that distinction. However, I think you might be intentionally obtuse on this. Is not the point the same? Those 329 people, if not exonerated, would have been executed. Wrongly. Post Mortem exoneration seems to be quite morbidly useless, at least for the deceased. So the point is that such mistakes may not be corrected.

Fallacious argument.

Any cases of innocent people lawfully executed? Exonerated people who are alive show that the system actually worked.

You don't identify the fallacy. You use rhetorical devices to avoid the issue I think.

The Innocence Project and similar initiatives are not part of the system, which does definitely not work.

"There is no systematic method to determine the accuracy of a criminal conviction" from the Abstract o fthe National Academy of Sciences report on Rate of False Convictions of Criminal Defendants who are Sentenced to Death http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7230.abstract

Perhaps someone will find some facts to demonstrate that people have been exonerated after execution. I vaguely remember reading reports of such and I may be able to track those thoughts down in time. In any case, my original point remains. Your point is moot and does not adequately defend your position. And you do not demonstrate any fallacy in my argument.

I am sorry, I didn't think I would have to point it out so directly.

If you cannot point to one case of legal execution that has proven to have been carried out on an innocent person then you are arguing that the system must be broken, not from proof but emotion.

Death penalty abolitionists have been trying for years to prove that an innocent has been executed. Many many organizations have been trying. And yes the innocence project is part of the adversarial system in the US just like expert witnesses etc

So, where's the proof that the system is broken?

In this day and age why can't they set up a machine gun with pin point accuracy linked to a computer and simply press a button?

It's just substitution a mechanical trigger for an electric one. Someone is still touching it off. Same with hanging, electric chair, gas, drugs - someone has to pull the trigger.

Some of these most evil people like Timothy McVeigh who blew up the federal building in Oklahoma and killed 160 people shouldn't have money wasted on them. Bullets cost money. They should have just hanged him in the public square as notice to everyone that society doesn't tolerate that behavior. Deterrent or not, he won't be doing it again.

BTW --- here's a link to an article that delves deeper into the story from the pnas http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent

The study cannot cite a single instance of the lawful execution of an innocent.

The primary author claims no conflict of interest, but says this....

“This is a disturbing finding,” said Samuel Gross, a law professor at the University of Michigan law school who is the lead author of the research. “There are a large number of people who are sentenced to death, and despite our best efforts some of them have undoubtedly been executed.”

"despite our best efforts "

Great Britain perfected the firing squad in the Great War, shooting dead their own men on the front line, for being unable to kill they neighbours in Europe.

Breaker Morant was pre WW1, the Digger from Aus.

In this day and age why can't they set up a machine gun with pin point accuracy linked to a computer and simply press a button?

It's just substitution a mechanical trigger for an electric one. Someone is still touching it off. Same with hanging, electric chair, gas, drugs - someone has to pull the trigger.

Some of these most evil people like Timothy McVeigh who blew up the federal building in Oklahoma and killed 160 people shouldn't have money wasted on them. Bullets cost money. They should have just hanged him in the public square as notice to everyone that society doesn't tolerate that behavior. Deterrent or not, he won't be doing it again.

Look up the Julian Gallows which was used on Tom Horn in the 1800s. Nobody wants to 'pull the lever' as with the Julian Gallows the condemn steps on the trap door which unplugs a water filled counter weight. Once the water empties, the trap opens. Interesting history.

Surely a headshot is better? I've shot a wild pig that ran off for a couple of hundred metres before collapsing and it turned out the shot went straight through the heart. Same thing with deer. All headshots have been immediate collapse.

Now, that is a real source of pride. If only the deer was able to fire back in your direction.

http://www.innocenceproject.org

329 people exonerated by this project so far

I am still missing it. That number appears to refer to people (alive) that were exonerated, not people legally executed who were later proven innocent.

Granted. I did not read the thread closely enough to make that distinction. However, I think you might be intentionally obtuse on this. Is not the point the same? Those 329 people, if not exonerated, would have been executed. Wrongly. Post Mortem exoneration seems to be quite morbidly useless, at least for the deceased. So the point is that such mistakes may not be corrected.

Fallacious argument.

Any cases of innocent people lawfully executed? Exonerated people who are alive show that the system actually worked.

You don't identify the fallacy. You use rhetorical devices to avoid the issue I think.

The Innocence Project and similar initiatives are not part of the system, which does definitely not work.

"There is no systematic method to determine the accuracy of a criminal conviction" from the Abstract o fthe National Academy of Sciences report on Rate of False Convictions of Criminal Defendants who are Sentenced to Death http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7230.abstract

Perhaps someone will find some facts to demonstrate that people have been exonerated after execution. I vaguely remember reading reports of such and I may be able to track those thoughts down in time. In any case, my original point remains. Your point is moot and does not adequately defend your position. And you do not demonstrate any fallacy in my argument.

I am sorry, I didn't think I would have to point it out so directly.

If you cannot point to one case of legal execution that has proven to have been carried out on an innocent person then you are arguing that the system must be broken, not from proof but emotion.

Death penalty abolitionists have been trying for years to prove that an innocent has been executed. Many many organizations have been trying. And yes the innocence project is part of the adversarial system in the US just like expert witnesses etc

So, where's the proof that the system is broken?

So clearly you have engaged in this debate before. Since I am a little slow, it took me a while to twig to your angle. You maintain the system works because there is not one case of anyone being exonerated after execution and that those exonerated before execution reinforces the effectiveness of the system. Then when it is pointed out that there is no system for exonerating people after execution, you employ ad hominem to discredit the source as in a later post.

Cameron Todd Willingham (2004), Johnny Garrett (1992), Jesse Tafero (1990) just 3 names from the Wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution but of course they are not systemically exonerated because no such system exists. Consequently you do not acknowledge these cases and keep demanding citations that do not exist.

I think that your argument is dishonest.

The system does not work. The Innocence Project was not established by the Criminal Justice system. It was set up by concerned individuals and is, what we would regard here as an NGO. However, since you use circularity in your position, there is no real point in arguing the point.

To me the risk of exciting even one innocent person outweighs any argument in favour of the death penalty. The burden of supervising and managing those convicted of capital crimes is a cost to be borne by society. A cost to be borne in a way that does not diminish society's humanity.