Germanwings co-pilot was once treated for suicidal tendencies

[webfact]

German co-pilot was once treated for suicidal tendencies
By FRANK JORDANS and CHRISTOPH NOELTING

DUESSELDORF, Germany (AP) — How could someone once diagnosed with suicidal tendencies get a job as a commercial pilot, entrusted with the lives of hundreds of people? That's the question being asked after officials confirmed Monday that Germanwings co-pilot Andreas Lubitz received lengthy psychotherapy before receiving his pilot's license.

All 150 people on board were killed by what prosecutors believe was a deliberate decision by Lubitz to slam the Airbus A320 he was flying from Barcelona to Duesseldorf into a mountain in the French Alps last Tuesday.

Lufthansa, Germanwings' parent company, declined to say whether it knew of Lubitz's mental health problems. But it said the young pilot had passed all required medical checks since starting work for its subsidiary two years ago.

Prosecutors in Duesseldorf, where Lubitz had an apartment, said the psychotherapy occurred over an extended period before he received his pilot's license, and that medical records referred to "suicidal tendencies." They provided no dates.

Lubitz started pilot training in 2008, though it's unclear when he finished the at least three-year-long course and received his license. Lufthansa said he was certified to fly their aircraft in 2013.

The country's aviation authority wouldn't comment on Lubitz's health, despite acknowledging last week that his record with the agency noted he needed "specific regular medical examination" beyond the annual checkup required of all pilots.

"The German Federal Aviation Office isn't directly responsible for assessing the air-medical fitness of pilots," said Cornelia Cramer, a spokeswoman for the agency, which is in charge of granting pilots' licenses.

Cramer said the medical checks are conducted by specially trained doctors, but declined to say whether their findings are passed on to the agency.

The head of the German Aviation Medical Practitioners Association, the organization representing doctors who determine if pilots are medically fit to fly, said the standard medical evaluation would not have been able to determine if a pilot suffered from a serious mental illness.

All pilots must undergo regular medical checks that include a cursory psychological evaluation, according to Dr. Hans-Werner Teichmueller, the agency's head. But such tests rely on patients being honest with their doctors, and even a seriously mentally unstable person would have been able to put a "mask" on for the investigation, he said.

"You can't see anything beyond the face," Teichmueller said. "We have developed a very refined system in Europe and most of us are in agreement that this system is optimal. If we were to add more psychological tests or modify the way we test, then we can still not change a situation like this."

Lubitz continued to visit doctors until recently, receiving notes that excused him from work — including for the day of the crash — but none referred to suicidal tendencies or aggression toward others, said prosecutors' spokesman Ralf Herrenbrueck.

He didn't say what medical help Lubitz was seeking at the time of the crash, but noted that there was no evidence of any physical illness.

While Lubitz was physically fit — he was an avid runner who took part in half-marathons — his future employers had at least some indication there was a problem.

Last week, Carsten Spohr, the CEO of Lufthansa, acknowledged there had been a "several-month" gap in Lubitz's training six years ago, but refused to elaborate. Following the disruption, he said, Lubitz "not only passed all medical tests but also his flight training, all flying tests and checks."

Prosecutors said they have so far found no indications in Lubitz's family, his personal surroundings or in his work environment of any motive that might have prompted his actions. They found no evidence that he told anyone, be it family, friends or doctors, what he was going to do.

The case has prompted a debate in Germany about the country's strict patient privacy rules. Doctors risk prison if they disclose information about their patients to anyone unless there is evidence they intend to commit a serious crime or harm themselves.

The head of the German Medical Association, Dr. Frank-Ulrich Montgomery, warned against hasty changes to the rules, saying that each case should be judged individually.

He noted that doctors can already notify authorities if, for example, a professional driver is an alcoholic.

At the crash site in the French Alps, meanwhile, authorities were poring over DNA evidence that has been painstakingly collected from the debris of Flight 9525, scattered across the steep mountainside. Authorities have identified 78 sets of DNA so far, according to the Marseille prosecutor's office, as they strive to identify all the victims for the grieving relatives who have poured into France by the hundreds.

Workers with backhoes and tractors were laying down a road just over a mile (2 kilometers) long Monday to reach the remote crash site to help speed the investigation. Until now, recovery crews have had to helicopter in and be tethered to local mountaineers to avoid slipping down the rocky, unstable slope.

France has deployed some 500 gendarmes and emergency workers to secure the crash site, search for human remains, examine evidence and help the traumatized relatives.
___

Jordans contributed from Berlin. Lori Hinnant in Marseille, Geir Moulson in Berlin and Jona Kallgren in Duesseldorf contributed to this report.

-- (c) Associated Press 2015-03-31

[cloudhopper]

Clearly the responsibility for this crash lies entirely with the system. And they know it so changes are and will be made.

[ezzra]

A bit late for such revelations isn't it? in the rush of the LLC airlines to fill up cockpits with less than steller, experiment crew, this is what happened when you cut corners just to keep those planes flying for revenue....

[bangkokheat]

privacy laws seriously need to be looked at

[sunshine51]

I smell suits...lots of em....lawsuits that is.

Not for one minute do I believe Germanwings

or Lufthansa did not know the copilot had

suicidal tendencies or any other mental

illness.

[Cats4ever]

Clearly, the treatment was not a success.

[F4UCorsair]

A bit late for such revelations isn't it? in the rush of the LLC airlines to fill up cockpits with less than steller, experiment crew, this is what happened when you cut corners just to keep those planes flying for revenue....

This is just not so, and to post that indicates a total lack of knowledge of how airlines recruit and operate.

I posted on another thread on this subject re pilot recruiting, so briefly, because a pilot is flying for a LCC doesn't mean he is second rate, for any number of reasons. See this thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/812219-alone-at-controls-co-pilot-sought-to-destroy-the-plane/page-9#entry9238706 Page 9 Post # 216.

There are only so many jobs in the major airlines, and then there are the LCC's, and because a pilot doesn't make the cut on a particular day for a major airline, means no more than there were better on the day. The airline then draws on a new pool of applicants for the next intake, so there are no second chances. There are some very experienced crew flying for LCC's, e.g., one springs to mind, 10 years RAAF, Mirage III and F18 pilot, Boeing 737 co pilot for 4 years, B737 command for 5+ years, Qanats co-pilot for 5 years, and now Jetstar Captain. Does that sound like inexperience or second string? He's but one of dozens I know with vast experience flying for any number of LCC's around the world.

As an example, Qantas pilots are often offered an earlier command in Jetstar, their LCC subsidiary. Faced with another 10-15 years of being a Second or First Officer in Qantas, or have an immediate command in Jetstar, taking a JQ command makes a lot of sense both professionally and financially.

Some years ago a major Australian domestic airline was engineered into oblivion by selfish owners, and the pool of vastly experienced pilots from that airline found themselves all round the world flying for all sorts of airlines, both major and LCC's. Some choose to fly as Captains for a LCC in Japan, for example, earning more money that a Qantas Captain because pilots in Japan are paid huge amounts of money, relatively. Why even bother thinking about joining QF, and spending 15 years as a co-pilot??? They are no less experienced or skilled, so to assert otherwise is just foolish.

Edited March 31, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[Chicog]

A bit late for such revelations isn't it? in the rush of the LLC airlines to fill up cockpits with less than steller, experiment crew, this is what happened when you cut corners just to keep those planes flying for revenue....

What corner was cut here by the airline?

[micmichd]

Best to employ only pilots with no brain at all.

[Commerce]

Best to employ only pilots with no brain at all.

The day will come! Alas, they won't be called pilots anymore. Pilots RIP.

[boomerangutang]

The other side of this debate is: if a pilot is told not to report to work or is fired (for something like 'diminished mental capacity' or 'suicidal tendencies') then that person can probably sue the employer for being biased. Employers, particularly in the US, have all sorts of restrictions on what they can and cannot do regarding hiring and firing. Sometimes there are quotas. But all the time, there are people eager to slap lawsuits - and there are always lawyers eager to join in, and make a bundle of money in the process.

Personally, I think there should be stricter parameters for hiring and firing, but the human psyche is such that it makes it easy to hide problems (like the co-pilot's) and easy to threaten lawsuits against any entity or person who may appear to be biased - against sex, sexual orientation, religion, drug-preference, overweight, cultish, cross-eyed, halitosis, creed, ...you name it, it's probably prompted a lawsuit.

I met a bright young man who had gone to flight training school to be a pilot. He dropped out. Reason: the other students smoke cigs so intensely (most were Middle Eastern), that my friend couldn't handle being in close quarters all day with them.

[Jonmarleesco]

It seems Lufthansa, the German Federal Aviation Office, and the German Aviation Medical Practitioners Association have a great deal to answer for ... even though they don't want to answer for anything yet.

[Jonmarleesco]

The other side of this debate is: if a pilot is told not to report to work or is fired (for something like 'diminished mental capacity' or 'suicidal tendencies') then that person can probably sue the employer for being biased. Employers, particularly in the US, have all sorts of restrictions on what they can and cannot do regarding hiring and firing. Sometimes there are quotas. But all the time, there are people eager to slap lawsuits - and there are always lawyers eager to join in, and make a bundle of money in the process.

Personally, I think there should be stricter parameters for hiring and firing, but the human psyche is such that it makes it easy to hide problems (like the co-pilot's) and easy to threaten lawsuits against any entity or person who may appear to be biased - against sex, sexual orientation, religion, drug-preference, overweight, cultish, cross-eyed, halitosis, creed, ...you name it, it's probably prompted a lawsuit.

I met a bright young man who had gone to flight training school to be a pilot. He dropped out. Reason: the other students smoke cigs so intensely (most were Middle Eastern), that my friend couldn't handle being in close quarters all day with them.

Lawsuits in the US, probably; much less likely outside of the US. Besides, 150 people being slaughtered by someone in, at that time, a position of responsibility, and who had previously demonstrated suicidal tendencies, renders disputes about bias somewhat moot.

[boomerangutang]

The other side of this debate is: if a pilot is told not to report to work or is fired (for something like 'diminished mental capacity' or 'suicidal tendencies') then that person can probably sue the employer for being biased. Employers, particularly in the US, have all sorts of restrictions on what they can and cannot do regarding hiring and firing. Sometimes there are quotas. But all the time, there are people eager to slap lawsuits - and there are always lawyers eager to join in, and make a bundle of money in the process.

Personally, I think there should be stricter parameters for hiring and firing, but the human psyche is such that it makes it easy to hide problems (like the co-pilot's) and easy to threaten lawsuits against any entity or person who may appear to be biased - against sex, sexual orientation, religion, drug-preference, overweight, cultish, cross-eyed, halitosis, creed, ...you name it, it's probably prompted a lawsuit.

I met a bright young man who had gone to flight training school to be a pilot. He dropped out. Reason: the other students smoke cigs so intensely (most were Middle Eastern), that my friend couldn't handle being in close quarters all day with them.

Lawsuits in the US, probably; much less likely outside of the US. Besides, 150 people being slaughtered by someone in, at that time, a position of responsibility, and who had previously demonstrated suicidal tendencies, renders disputes about bias somewhat moot.

One of the many problems is demonstrating that someone has suicidal tendencies is a prickly path. Here's one scenario: some employee is jealous of another employee getting a raise. The first person claims he heard the promoted person talking about committing suicide in the men's room. Pow, the promoted person gets fired, and the tattle-taler gets the coveted position. The human mind is such a fickle and complicated lump of putty. Any time regulators try to make tighter regulations, there will be people to find ways to corrupt the system, or skirt around the regulations. The co-pilot mass-murderer did it simply by not voluntarily showing his medical scrips to his bosses. Even if he had, they might just have had a jovial conversation, and dismissed the scrips as being silly and unimportant. ....back to biz as usual.

[micmichd]

What exactly are "suicidal tendencies"?

Maybe Mr. Lubitz thought he should risk his life in a crash test and played the "game of chicken" against the autopilot.

He finally "won", the autopilot was not able to save the lives of humans.

Crazy idea, I know. But really impossible that someone should think that way?

[tartempion]

A bit late for such revelations isn't it? in the rush of the LLC airlines to fill up cockpits with less than steller, experiment crew, this is what happened when you cut corners just to keep those planes flying for revenue....

All very unfortunate and sad.

Airlines have come a long way, I remember the 1970ties, where we had real cowboys flying planes for the airline I worked for, I witnessed what crazy nights pilots had during crew rest in Hong Kong. Not much chance any of this would happen in 2015, if management would hear such stories today pilots would be fired on the spot.

A pilot who suffered a myocardial infarct will be moved to crew sheduling, but having had a depression in some period of you life, keeping such people away from the cockpit or any other job with responsability?

I am not a psychiatrist and what about people hiding their problems and what about management making peoples jobs a hell?

They do exists in numbers.

[boomerangutang]

Yes, it's very hard to legislate against people going apeshit. I don't have any snappy solutions.

[h90]

I smell suits...lots of em....lawsuits that is.

Not for one minute do I believe Germanwings

or Lufthansa did not know the copilot had

suicidal tendencies or any other mental

illness.

He got called Tomato-Andi.....so they knew of some problems

[micmichd]

I smell mobbing (post mortem)

[h90]

I smell mobbing (post mortem)

A lot speculations:

1) The mobbed him because he was Steward before.

2) The mobbed him because he was gay but hide it

3) Some newspaper say it was because is hidden sexuality

4) He got problem with his eyes (so nothing with sex or steward or mobbing, but loved flying

5) the anti depression tablets made him crazy

6) he split up with his girlfriend

7) 6+2 or 3

I think we'll never find out for sure as there is no letter.

[sunshine51]

Well...as of today Lufthansa has finally admitted they knew Andreas Lubitz had

mental problems...it's all over the BBC. Big time screw up...lawsuits will be severe,

especially from the Americans who had 3 pax aboard.

Edited April 1, 2015 by sunshine51

[micmichd]

The other side of this debate is: if a pilot is told not to report to work or is fired (for something like 'diminished mental capacity' or 'suicidal tendencies') then that person can probably sue the employer for being biased. Employers, particularly in the US, have all sorts of restrictions on what they can and cannot do regarding hiring and firing. Sometimes there are quotas. But all the time, there are people eager to slap lawsuits - and there are always lawyers eager to join in, and make a bundle of money in the process.

Personally, I think there should be stricter parameters for hiring and firing, but the human psyche is such that it makes it easy to hide problems (like the co-pilot's) and easy to threaten lawsuits against any entity or person who may appear to be biased - against sex, sexual orientation, religion, drug-preference, overweight, cultish, cross-eyed, halitosis, creed, ...you name it, it's probably prompted a lawsuit.

I met a bright young man who had gone to flight training school to be a pilot. He dropped out. Reason: the other students smoke cigs so intensely (most were Middle Eastern), that my friend couldn't handle being in close quarters all day with them.

Lawsuits in the US, probably; much less likely outside of the US. Besides, 150 people being slaughtered by someone in, at that time, a position of responsibility, and who had previously demonstrated suicidal tendencies, renders disputes about bias somewhat moot.

One of the many problems is demonstrating that someone has suicidal tendencies is a prickly path. Here's one scenario: some employee is jealous of another employee getting a raise. The first person claims he heard the promoted person talking about committing suicide in the men's room. Pow, the promoted person gets fired, and the tattle-taler gets the coveted position. The human mind is such a fickle and complicated lump of putty. Any time regulators try to make tighter regulations, there will be people to find ways to corrupt the system, or skirt around the regulations. The co-pilot mass-murderer did it simply by not voluntarily showing his medical scrips to his bosses. Even if he had, they might just have had a jovial conversation, and dismissed the scrips as being silly and unimportant. ....back to biz as usual.

They could have asked him if he wants another job, maybe as an autopilot tester in Airbus Industries. He was only 27 yo.

[Credo]

A friend watches the US News each day through the internet. We were just watching the US version of ABC News and they had a small quip about Andreas Lubitz. Apparently, the US FAA had raised questions about Lubitz flight capability because of his mental state. The German counterparts assured the FAA that he had been cured of his problems and considered fit to fly.

[Scott]

It appears that he had practiced for his suicidal plan:

Report: Germanwings crash co-pilot tested 100-foot descent setting

http://us.cnn.com/2015/05/06/europe/france-germanwings-crash-report/index.html

[micmichd]

perfect fit for function in a dehumanizing system...

[boomerangutang]

This sad event will have another side effect: Employed people or people looking for work - who are depressed (or think they may be), will be much less likely to go seek professional help. Reason: because if they're diagnosed as being depressed, they could lose their job or flunk the job interview.

[micmichd]

How did these celebrated psychiatrists actually find out that he was depressed?

[Scott]

I would venture to guess that a good forensic profile would show that he was more than depressed. Depression would have been the easiest thing to see and treat, but underlying this was something far worse.

[micmichd]

They should have sent him to the Air Force.