Orient Thai plunges from sky after engine fails

[catweazle]

Most likely a foreigner at fault, so "Hey, let's have another serious crackdown on foreign-owned tour and diving businesses and illegal foreign tourguides! That will certainly solve the problem!"... at least move the public's attention away from this mess...

[lumply]

Atmospheric conditions such as clear air turbulence in the cruise can hardly be blamed on the airline or crew. It's how the handling pilot handles the situation that counts, surely?

[Tywais]

I always assumed forward momentum and glide ratio would prevent a plane from falling from the sky?

Any aircraft can stall at any speed. When it stalls, sometimes the pilot can reestablish laminar flow over the wings and sometimes they cannot. In any case it takes time to recover from a stall and during that time, it falls like a lead balloon.

Not true. There is always a defined stall speed.

Sorry, but not correct. That defined stall speed from the manuals applies only to normal configuration and conditions, examples being approach to landing or departure but not in unusual attitudes.

[JoeLing]

Orient Thai aka 1-2-Go allowed to fly internationally after it crashed domestically and wind up. Perhaps international customers are less likely to recall the accident and locally, they have short memories.

Although Thailand's Civil Aviation Departement revoked Orient Thai/One2Go's

AOC between July and December 2008 they still flew to Hongkong. A complet

disregard for it's passengers and crews safety. Any punishment for their action?

None.

What has changed since?

Nothing, nada, rien de tout.

So I do hope the international Airsafety Bords will revoke ALL permits for

air carriers based in Thailand and as safety standards on the ground is just

as miserable as in the air, I hope foreign Airlines will start flying to KL or

Singapore instead of any of the Thai airport.

[NCFC]

See, if I got this right.

It happened on Saturday and is only reported in Thailand Tuesday??

All at the same time the government is promising God and the world, that Thailand is serious about addressing air safety issues.

And for starters, they try to sweep this incident under the carpet.

With that attitude (mai phen rai) I hope they get prohibited from flying to many more countries, than the 3 who had already said: Enough is enough!!

Ironic your post----you need 3 liters of the drink you bought me on another thread.

prior to the last 8 months - Are you satisfied the PTP and the PM had everything in control and aviation in Thailand was safe for their 3 years??

OTT anti Prayuth post as per norm.

I was waiting for the 'but, but Thaksin' crew to turn up, and they never disappoint.

[JoeLing]

I recon Thailand's Civil Aviation Department is a bit like the TV forum.

Whilst everyone is questioning air safety, our resident forum expert
members are arguing on 7 of 9 pages if it's possible to stall a plane
in flight.

Suppose same with Thailand's Civil Aviation Department, whilst one
country after the other is shutting down Thailand's international routes,
those experts are probably discussing who to sue for defamation instead
of discussing the real issue.

Always right to the point -Thaistyle

Edited March 31, 2015 by JoeLing

[Thai at Heart]

I believe they also have a deal ferrying united nations troop around. Legacy from connections with air america.. .

[BusyB]

I always assumed forward momentum and glide ratio would prevent a plane from falling from the sky?

Bleed air issue on one engine. Had to conduct emergency descent. This would be done at a high descent rate, which would be felt as if the plane was "plummeting". It would be a rapid descent from 29,000 + feet, down to 10,000 in minutes. So, without a cabin announcement, I would say the "pucker factor" would be at the top of the scale. Especially in light of the GermanWings crash.

Bleed air is used to pressurize the cabin so they needed to get down to an altitude where the passengers wouldn't be hypoxic.

The oxygen masks are all down - clearly an emergency descent. Frightening for pax but routine and perfectly safe. But "plunges from sky" is better click-bait than "emergency descent".

[JulianLS]

It amazes me how many here are quick to post on a thread, but clearly haven't read the previous posts. An early post explained this event fully +well, almost fully).

1) stop talking about stalls. There was no stall, the pilots descended deliberately. Read on.

2) there was no engine failure per se, just a fault with an engine bleed.

3) the descent did not cause the nosebleeds, the decompression event did. Duhhhh...

4) the pilots followed SOP in descending rapidly to a breathable altitude. Clearly the rest of the crew were unaware of this SOP.

5) the most pertinent question is why one engine fault (not failure) led to a loss of pressure. The frightening implication is that the other bleed was not operating at the time.

But please, read before you post. Forget engine failure, forget stalls. Neither are relevant to this thread....That is if you have read page one....

And to the pilots (real not armchair) who didn't work this out instantly...shame on you. The clue was nosebleeds. Should immediately shout decompression to you. That is, if the picture of the masks deployed didn't give it away! Maybe you are not as smart as you thought.....

[harada]

Ok, now that they are all safe and sound, they should fire the flight attendants for crying and carry on like that. They are only human, but what if the pilot acted like that? Instead, the pilot heroically managed to land the plane. Kudos to him

Khao San Road certificates of competency ?

[kiwikeith]

Report on the flight http://avherald.com/h?article=483fc32e

Hard to believe this airline is still in existence with their 1-2-Go debacle in Phuket. Couldn't pay me to get on one of their aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-Two-GO_Airlines_Flight_269

"Well used" aircraft http://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Orient%20Thai%20Airlines.htm

I couldn't agree more. That company utilise nothing but flying coffins. Anyone who flies with them needs their head examining in my opinion.

A new job for General Prayut PM.

[jacko45k]

I always assumed forward momentum and glide ratio would prevent a plane from falling from the sky?

Hard to maintain forward momentum without engines, a descent will maintain airspeed and hence 'lift'.

I didn't know an aircraft would need to 'plunge' to maintain flight after losing only one engine.

[stevehaigh]

I always assumed forward momentum and glide ratio would prevent a plane from falling from the sky?

cabin lost pressure due to an engine bleed air fault prompting the crew to initiate an emergency descent.

[ravip]

Oh nooo, more bad news for thai aviation.

Who will fly with any of them from now on? Not me or my collegues....

But this happened saturday? Then why it's in the news on tuesday??

Malaysian aircraft getting lost, German aircraft plunging in to mountains, Air Canada jet touched down short of the runway at an airport in Halifax early Sunday, hitting an antenna, severing a power line and losing its landing gear before skidding to a stop...

Well... some people should not even look at an airport!

Disasters will not be very choosy about nationalities, it seem.

[Jim walker]

That will be why the military are so keen to get their diesel submarines possibly to help find the wreckage of a doomed plane in the sea and not to fend off a Chinese invasion.

[Bkungbank]

30,000 feets human cannot live due no oxygen have to desent to 10,000 where human can breath but with sudden desent structure failure may occour as the pilot have no choice as passengers might unconscious.

[paulchiangmai]

AFAIK the f-16 is the world's only plane whose maximum engine thrust exceeds its weight (which varies of course) so it can theoretically fly straight up like a rocket. But even one of those can stall out.

They still fly the Lightning at air shows I think. Watched exactly that in awe when I was a kid.

I understand the English Electric P1 Lightning could go through the sound barrier in straight up vertical flight.

[stuck]

Nonsense! All airplanes with 2 or more engines are designed to be able to fly with one engine failed. They don't just plummet from the sky. If that was the case, it was pilot error and nothing else.

[sandyf]

I always assumed forward momentum and glide ratio would prevent a plane from falling from the sky?

Any aircraft can stall at any speed. When it stalls, sometimes the pilot can reestablish laminar flow over the wings and sometimes they cannot. In any case it takes time to recover from a stall and during that time, it falls like a lead balloon.

Not true. There is always a defined stall speed. Also some stalls can be recovered from in a few seconds. Been in a lot of them as I was a Naval Aviator and also an instructor pilot. Had to teach students about stalls.

What era? I was an instrument fitter in the RAF, autopilots etc. Did my Wessex training at Daedalus in 69 and a spell on the Fearless during my gulf tour in 70. Ended up on Buccs and finished off in the bay at Honington alongside the guys from 809.

[flyingdoc]

Very worrying with the number of passenger aircraft incidents happening within the last few months in Asia and elsewhere!

[F4UCorsair]

It seems that flying a modern high performance jet is a bit like tapping a keg................everybody is an expert!!

[F4UCorsair]

An aircraft can't stall at any speed.

A bit surprised to hear you say that as it flies in the face of my flight training and hundreds of other instructors and including the FAA. Again, it is the critical angle of attack that is the determining factor and loss of laminar flow across the wings. You could be in a nose down rapid descent doing 150mph and pull suddenly back on the control and exceed the critical angle of attack creating a stall but still have high airspeed.

A stall occurs when you have to much angel of attack and to little power on the engine, when close to stall a summer start in the cokpit and the controlls feel´s flappy, the only thing to do is to put the aircraft in a dive and it will level out by it self when the speed is enough.

Please guys, if you don't know what you're talking about, desist.

Controls don't feel floppy as an aircraft approaches the stall in the type of aircraft about which we're talking. That only happens in small aircraft with no hydraulics to the control surfaces. There is no natural feel through the hydraulic systems, and that's why a 'stick shaker' is part of the electronics, to warn of an impending stall.

Stall recovery is a gentle manouver, and it's not necessary to put the aircraft into a dive to recover, nor will it level out by itself when recovered. That requires pilot input. The nose is gently lowered and airspeed recovered. Adopting a severe nose down attitude does no more than lose a lot more altitude than is necessary due to the inertia of the aircraft, i.e., it doesn't accelerate significantly faster, but does lose a lot more altitude. One of the most useless things when flying an aircraft is altitude above you.

Tywais, agreed, possibly a bad choice of words on my part, but it is a momentary stall, and if the back stick is relaxed even a little, it flys out of the condition. Try it in the simulator. Operated normally, it is awfully difficult to stall a modern jet, partly because of the built in technology, but also the stick shaker warning of an impending stall, and when stick shaker occurs, lowering the nose by even one degree will eliminate the condition.

I think if you pulled back hard enough on the stick of a heavy jet at 320 KIAS, you'd pull the wings off it before you stalled it. Just guessing on that.

Edited April 1, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[JoeLing]

Very worrying with the number of passenger aircraft incidents happening within the last few months in Asia and elsewhere!

Hmmm, maybe check the statistics and you might see it's safer to fly then ever before.

If you want to fly safer than today, you need to go back for 70 years.

[BobbyLambo]

I always assumed forward momentum and glide ratio would prevent a plane from falling from the sky?

Just a guess at this point. Combined with the nosebleeds and loss of engine a hunch is that it had rapid decompression and they dived to get low enough for atmospheric pressure to provide oxygen to the cabin.

That's a guess.

Cabin pressure is often maintained by energy from an engine or engines so my guess is additive.

Good guess!

An Orient Thai Airlines Boeing 737-300, flight OX-682 (dep Mar 27th) from Phuket (Thailand) to Chengdu (China) with 119 people on board, was enroute near Kunming (China) when the cabin lost pressure due to an engine bleed air fault prompting the crew to initiate an emergency descent. The passenger oxygen masks were released. The aircraft diverted to Kunming for a safe landing.

source: http://avherald.com/h?article=483fc32e

Edited April 1, 2015 by BobbyLambo

[Rogergreybeard]

Shit..........everywhere

[Briggsy]

Chinese are particularly susceptible to panic and hysteria. They generally do not perform well in situations that require a cool head and good decision-making under pressure.

[Chicog]

I believe Orient Thai is the sister company of One-Two-Go which was banned from EU operations in 2009

Not long after the Phuket accident they canned the name One-Two-Go and just used Orient Thai name on all planes. Previously only the 747's were considered Orient Thai.

I think that's because everyone started calling it 1-2-Crash.

[MrY]

It amazes me how many here are quick to post on a thread, but clearly haven't read the previous posts. An early post explained this event fully +well, almost fully).

1) stop talking about stalls. There was no stall, the pilots descended deliberately. Read on.

2) there was no engine failure per se, just a fault with an engine bleed.

3) the descent did not cause the nosebleeds, the decompression event did. Duhhhh...

4) the pilots followed SOP in descending rapidly to a breathable altitude. Clearly the rest of the crew were unaware of this SOP.

5) the most pertinent question is why one engine fault (not failure) led to a loss of pressure. The frightening implication is that the other bleed was not operating at the time.

But please, read before you post. Forget engine failure, forget stalls. Neither are relevant to this thread....That is if you have read page one....

And to the pilots (real not armchair) who didn't work this out instantly...shame on you. The clue was nosebleeds. Should immediately shout decompression to you. That is, if the picture of the masks deployed didn't give it away! Maybe you are not as smart as you thought.....

100% correct and to the point. Nothing to add, nothing to correct.

[MrY]

Someone told me once that 777-200 can fly up vertical if it's has no passengers or cargo so powerful are the two engines. Don't know if its ever been done, Boeing might have done it during testing? Aviation myth?

It is quite powerful but not that powerful.

B777-200; empty weight about 300,000 lbs, thrust up to 2x 100,000 lbs.

B777-300ER; thrust 2x 115,000 lbs, but empty weight 370,000 lbs.

[MrY]

I believe they also have a deal ferrying united nations troop around. Legacy from connections with air america.. .

How on earth do you get from "connections with Air America" to getting a contract with United Nations...?

The reason K. Udom still has these contracts dates back to the time when he operated Kampuchea Airlines with his L1011 TriStars and was getting IOM/OIM contracts under Cambodia's United Nations preferred nation status. He's had UN contracts on and off close to 20 years, but it's nothing to do with "Air America".

For reference, here is one of his birds with the logo on the side;

(This one is taken in Tucson, AZ. It's heading for the scrap yard, the engines have already been removed.)