Bangkok's lavish, air-conditioned malls consume as much power as entire provinces

[NicoBKK]

This thread has naturally become a "rich/poor" discussion, as always on this forum.

To cheer up everyone, I post this picture of 20 super cars (for which the owners paid a lot of taxes) in front of Central Embassy (another mall using a fair bit of electricity)

I understand the point of a poster here who seem to think highly about the tax systems (while he probably pays himself very very little), so he will probably be happy to know that each of these cars is taxed in millions.

Hopefully there are rich people to pay taxes and the VAT on luxury goods bought in luxury malls

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1428459445.983835.jpg

Here they are! I took a video of these passing one by one under my apartment last weekend

[NicoBKK]

Actually these Malls are far too cold, expecially the food courts, time to get the food and bring it to the table is already cold (e.g. Paragon or the new EmQuarter). I am now selecting Malls by temperature: Platinum, MBK, Terminal 21, Mega Bangna, CentralWorld are not too bad. EmQuarter, Embassy and Paragon far too cold

[zakk9]

This thread is a good revealer of socialo-communists on TV :-)

If people engaged their brains, they could think about the number of visitors of the malls.

MHS: 250.000 inhabitants, malls: probably nearly the same number of visitors in a day!

The next thing is - people complaining about some schools having no aircon... Well, schools live from tax money and I would bet all the shops in luxury malls pay taxes, which is certainly not the case of all the streetside shops in Mae Hong Son !!

Then, the cool thing about private is self-adjustment - if there was no money to be made, the malls would close down.

Socialo-Communists are always quick to want force other people to do their bidding, regulate everything and erode everyone's freedom as a consequence.

- Have you been to the luxury malls? Some of them have only a few thousand visitors per day.

- Most government schools have no aircon and it's not realistic to think that they will get it anytime soon. Around 2,000 schools in Thailand have no electricity at all. Many schools are in so bad shape that they represent a health hazard for the children (vermin, bacteria, buildings falling apart etc.).

- How do you know that shops in luxury malls pay tax? My guess would be that very few of them do. There are plenty of ways to avoid that.

- Many malls have been closed down because they haven't been build on realistic market research or any market research at all. Others again have resurfaced as IT-malls, markets etc. Some keep going because the owners have enough money to live with any losses or because the are able to attract naive, ignorant people who open new shops replacing those who go under.

And how would the mall group making losses affect you? What would you have the mall group do? Give all their wealth away? Would you do that?

I went to emquartier on Monday and all in all it employs well over 500 people who would be unemployed without it....of the mall group loses money then that's there problem.

I will say however that they're likely to lose money unless they review their prices...Replay jeans have went up in price from about 11,000thb a pair to 15,000thb a pair......they lost my custom that day as I'm not buying their building for them.

No, their losses don't affect me, but the waste of electricity affects everyone. It leads to more expensive electricity and more pollution for all. Because all these malls are built within a small area downtown that was overcrowded to start with, they also increase the never ending traffic jams, wasting more time for more people and increasing pollution locally, air that people breath, leading to health problems for many.

Thailand doesn't have unemployment. There are around 4 million workers from neighbouring countries here already, and finding skilled as well as unskilled workers is an increasing problem. Because of the low fertility rate in Thailand (currently 1.6), the native population will start decreasing in 10-15 years, leading to further problems finding people to fill all positions.

[Pheat123]

Malls generate profits for business owners... as well as plenty of jobs, direct and indirect.

A Dior dress directly feeds the mouth of the business owner, but indirectly it feeds the mouth of the store's staff, the marketers, the mall's cleaners, the food court cooks, the advertising agencies, the designers in France, the garment factories in Bengladesh, the security guards, the transport companies, the taxi drivers, ... , or even the beggars and lotery sellers who wait outside the malls.

Hopefully there are lots of luxury goods to buy in luxury malls. It feeds millions of people around the world.

And hopefully there are plenty of people who buy these products too!

Yes, it feeds a lot of people... just, keeping them from starving to death, but not much more. But few of the rich people who buy the luxury goods pay much tax, if any at all. They contribute as little as they can to society and prefer to spend their not-so-hard-earned money on Dior dresses rather than helping society move forward and increasing the quality for all involved. The reality is that of the price of a dress, only a very tiny fraction ends up in the pockets of those who actually made the garment.

Well most high earners in the UK I know

Pay an awful lot of tax

More in one year than a low earner pays in a life time

Are you a low earner by chance?

[Cypress Hill]

Again, why do so many Thai Visa members feel the need to make personal attacks against a poster who has only published his own opinion? It seems like these flamers feel personally threatened in some way. Why else would they repeatedly strike out at others with differing opinions and go for their throats? You see it again and again in the same people.

Boo Hoo, tell it to the judge

Airing an opinion is perfectly OK but one in which lazy, negative generalisations are made about an entire nation deserves to be slapped down hard.

zakk9 made what I felt were generalisations about wealthy Thais that had no basis in actual fact beyond his own churlish prejudices.

I produced evidence that clearly proved my point. He just continued to trot out his rhetoric.

He can't possibly justify an assertion in which he characterizes all wealthy Thais as tax-evading, greedy, self-obsessed prigs who will do anything to avoid contributing to the wellbeing of the country.

Whether that stupid assumption stems from socialist political leanings is neither here nor there - the fact is he simply doesn't have any REAL evidence to support it

Edited April 8, 2015 by Cypress Hill

[gerry1011]

Again, why do so many Thai Visa members feel the need to make personal attacks against a poster who has only published his own opinion? It seems like these flamers feel personally threatened in some way. Why else would they repeatedly strike out at others with differing opinions and go for their throats? You see it again and again in the same people.

Boo Hoo, tell it to the judge

Airing an opinion is perfectly OK but one in which lazy, negative generalisations are made about an entire nation deserves to be slapped down hard.

zakk9 made what I felt were generalisations about wealthy Thais that had no basis in actual fact beyond his own churlish prejudices.

I produced evidence that clearly proved my point. He just continued to trot out his rhetoric.

He can't possibly justify an assertion in which he characterizes all wealthy Thais as tax-evading, greedy, self-obsessed prigs who will do anything to avoid contributing to the wellbeing of the country.

Whether that stupid assumption stems from socialist political leanings is neither here nor there - the fact is he simply doesn't have any REAL evidence to support it

... and even if "all wealthy Thais were indeed tax-evading, greedy, self-obsessed prigs who would do anything to avoid contributing to the wellbeing of the country",... it does not suppress the fact that these very same wealthy people, who buy luxury goods in luxury (energy consuming) malls, contribute much more to the society (and the economy) (if only with the high taxes on those luxury goods) than he does... Edited April 8, 2015 by gerry1011

[zakk9]

... and even if "all wealthy Thais were indeed tax-evading, greedy, self-obsessed prigs who would do anything to avoid contributing to the wellbeing of the country",... it does not suppress the fact that these very same wealthy people, who buy luxury goods in luxury (energy consuming) malls, contribute much more to the society (and the economy) (if only with the high taxes on those luxury goods) than he does...

Tax evasion in Thailand is a well known and well documented fact. Only the ignorants would claim otherwise. There are obviously exceptions, but if you read the statistics, it becomes very obvious. I've never claimed that I contribute much to this society, but I do pay my taxes and I do my job to promote Thai products abroad bringing money into the country. And your contribution is...

[Stan42]

I'm not bothered by the cold temperatures at the new EmQuartier, I just want them to shut down the lights after they close at 10pm. They light up the entire district with moving spotlights throughout the entire night. I can see them from my apartment window at 2am. Who are these lights for?

[Gonsalviz]

Malls generate profits for business owners... as well as plenty of jobs, direct and indirect.

A Dior dress directly feeds the mouth of the business owner, but indirectly it feeds the mouth of the store's staff, the marketers, the mall's cleaners, the food court cooks, the advertising agencies, the designers in France, the garment factories in Bengladesh, the security guards, the transport companies, the taxi drivers, ... , or even the beggars and lotery sellers who wait outside the malls.

Hopefully there are lots of luxury goods to buy in luxury malls. It feeds millions of people around the world.

And hopefully there are plenty of people who buy these products too!

Yes, it feeds a lot of people... just, keeping them from starving to death, but not much more. But few of the rich people who buy the luxury goods pay much tax, if any at all. They contribute as little as they can to society and prefer to spend their not-so-hard-earned money on Dior dresses rather than helping society move forward and increasing the quality for all involved. The reality is that of the price of a dress, only a very tiny fraction ends up in the pockets of those who actually made the garment.

I think you should donate your time and money to direct Thailands economic plan.

[Cypress Hill]

I'm not bothered by the cold temperatures at the new EmQuartier, I just want them to shut down the lights after they close at 10pm. They light up the entire district with moving spotlights throughout the entire night. I can see them from my apartment window at 2am. Who are these lights for?

Decorative. I like them. Looks futuristic

[Stan42]

I'm not bothered by the cold temperatures at the new EmQuartier, I just want them to shut down the lights after they close at 10pm. They light up the entire district with moving spotlights throughout the entire night. I can see them from my apartment window at 2am. Who are these lights for?

Decorative. I like them. Looks futuristic

In the middle of the night, when most people sleep?

[Cypress Hill]

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I'm not bothered by the cold temperatures at the new EmQuartier, I just want them to shut down the lights after they close at 10pm. They light up the entire district with moving spotlights throughout the entire night. I can see them from my apartment window at 2am. Who are these lights for?

Decorative. I like them. Looks futuristic

In the middle of the night, when most people sleep?

Well you're not gonna be able to see moving spotlights during the day, are you?

[FritsSikkink]

Probably generates twice as much revenue as well...

These malls generate nothing. They are places where rich people buy stuff they don't need in shops owned by other rich people. They are a waste of space, a waste of money and a waste of energy.

What a load of BS, they employ a lot of people, or do you think they are rich too.

[Howitzer]

>>The huge Siam Paragon mall consumes nearly twice as much power annually as all of Thailand’s underdeveloped Mae Hong Son province, home to about 250,000 people.<< Quote

The rich is getting richer and the poor is getting poorer!!

No surprises there....................

And then what? Do they use the electricity for free or do they pay for it? In fact it's not shocking that siam paragon consumes more than a province like MHS since siam paragon is probably just an average sized mall compared to the likes of malls around south east asia and is nothing compared to malls in europe and the US since they have much larger malls that consume power. What is more shocking is the fact that one entire province consumes less electricity than a mall. That shows how underdeveloped it is.

Use your brains when you read reports like this and get shocked at the correct issues. If the it's excessive consumption of energy by a mall then malls in aus, europe, us and the rest of the world developed world should close since they are more likely to be bigger and grander than siam paragon.

[zakk9]

Probably generates twice as much revenue as well...

These malls generate nothing. They are places where rich people buy stuff they don't need in shops owned by other rich people. They are a waste of space, a waste of money and a waste of energy.

What a load of BS, they employ a lot of people, or do you think they are rich too.

Compared to their energy consumption and construction costs, these malls employ very few people.

[zakk9]

>>The huge Siam Paragon mall consumes nearly twice as much power annually as all of Thailand’s underdeveloped Mae Hong Son province, home to about 250,000 people.<< Quote

The rich is getting richer and the poor is getting poorer!!

No surprises there....................

And then what? Do they use the electricity for free or do they pay for it? In fact it's not shocking that siam paragon consumes more than a province like MHS since siam paragon is probably just an average sized mall compared to the likes of malls around south east asia and is nothing compared to malls in europe and the US since they have much larger malls that consume power. What is more shocking is the fact that one entire province consumes less electricity than a mall. That shows how underdeveloped it is.

Use your brains when you read reports like this and get shocked at the correct issues. If the it's excessive consumption of energy by a mall then malls in aus, europe, us and the rest of the world developed world should close since they are more likely to be bigger and grander than siam paragon.

Central World is no. 8, Siam Paragon is no. 42 and Seacon Square is no. 67 on the list of the largest shopping malls in the world, so they are just as large as their European and America counterparts. The largest "western" mall is West Edmonton Mall in Canada on the 18th spot. The largest malls in the world are mostly situated in Asia and the Middle East.

Due to the tropical climate in Thailand, shopping malls consume much more energy than their European and North America counterpart. The difference between cooling a mall down from 35+ degrees to somewhere between 20 and 25 degrees takes many times the energy you need to adjust the temperature a couple of degrees which is mostly the case in countries further north.

Also, in most countries, normal economic thinking would prevent most investors from building shopping malls that few visits and where even fewer spend any money. Unfortunately, that kind of thinking doesn't seem to be very common among Thai investors.

Even though the malls pay for their electricity, there's something called social responsibility. Electricity is a limited resource, and the more energy luxury malls in Bangkok spend, the more others have to pay and the more coal, oil and gas will be spent, constantly polluting our environment.

Edited April 12, 2015 by zakk9

[gerry1011]

I think that zakk9 wants to have the last word, so let it be

While I hope that he boycotts all the air conditioned venues (and the heated ones in cold countries), including all malls, shops, restaurants, houses, clinics and hospitals, ... not forgetting the 8000 7/11s of the country, I personally with keep spending money in all these place to support the economy

On the other side, I do admire his idealism.

Edited April 12, 2015 by gerry1011

[Luxfare]

Again, why do so many Thai Visa members feel the need to make personal attacks against a poster who has only published his own opinion? It seems like these flamers feel personally threatened in some way. Why else would they repeatedly strike out at others with differing opinions and go for their throats? You see it again and again in the same people.

Boo Hoo, tell it to the judge

Airing an opinion is perfectly OK but one in which lazy, negative generalisations are made about an entire nation deserves to be slapped down hard.

zakk9 made what I felt were generalisations about wealthy Thais that had no basis in actual fact beyond his own churlish prejudices.

I produced evidence that clearly proved my point. He just continued to trot out his rhetoric.

He can't possibly justify an assertion in which he characterizes all wealthy Thais as tax-evading, greedy, self-obsessed prigs who will do anything to avoid contributing to the wellbeing of the country.

Whether that stupid assumption stems from socialist political leanings is neither here nor there - the fact is he simply doesn't have any REAL evidence to support it

From what my experience tells me is that those who insinuate all Hiso Thais are tax dodgers and corrupt individuals have never actually met a hiso Thai. My wife is hiso, her family paid for our condo, her car, half our wedding, and even gave me an interest free loan to settle my credit cards back in the UK.....oh, and they pay their taxes.

Some farang just cannot accept that Thais earn more than them and drive around in cars and have possessions that the farang can only dream of......I think back home we call in a severe case of the green eyed monster.

[Luxfare]

Probably generates twice as much revenue as well...

These malls generate nothing. They are places where rich people buy stuff they don't need in shops owned by other rich people. They are a waste of space, a waste of money and a waste of energy.

What a load of BS, they employ a lot of people, or do you think they are rich too.

Compared to their energy consumption and construction costs, these malls employ very few people.

And if they were turned into a house or condo they'd employ even less.

[sean in udon]

. . . few of the rich people who buy the luxury goods pay much tax, if any at all. They contribute as little as they can to society and prefer to spend their not-so-hard-earned money on Dior dresses rather than helping society move forward and increasing the quality for all involved

Pure BS from yet another clueless farang talking on matters he knows nothing about from the best vantage point he knows . . . his reclining armchair

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-16260782

In terms of percentage of population, Thailand was the most generous, with 85% of Thais making regular charitable contributions.

I wonder if all those who give are poor.

A good percentage of those who give are poor.

Having had a good look at the Charities Aid Foundation's (CAF) World Giving Index website (the source of the 85% statistic), the figure for 2014 is down to 77%.

My personal experience of Thais, in Issan, does not involve giving to any charitable organisations. They simply can't afford it.

However, the CAF criteria includes giving to temples and monks. So yes, poor people do regularly give food and money to the monks and temples and therefore, Thailand scores highly.

To quote from futureworldgiving.org (they appear to be linked with CAF):

"The 2014 World Giving Index has found that a larger proportion of Burmese people give money to charity every month than any other country on earth – by far."

Burma is number one in the world! Again based on donations (food and monetary) to monks and temples.

Bit of a reality check for those who might think 85% of Thais are giving to charities. IMO churches, religious organisations, temples, etc are not charities. And "buying" merit is not a charitable donation.

Any guesses at what the percentage might be if we take the temples and monks out of the equation?

Edited April 12, 2015 by sean in udon

[zakk9]

Again, why do so many Thai Visa members feel the need to make personal attacks against a poster who has only published his own opinion? It seems like these flamers feel personally threatened in some way. Why else would they repeatedly strike out at others with differing opinions and go for their throats? You see it again and again in the same people.

Boo Hoo, tell it to the judge

Airing an opinion is perfectly OK but one in which lazy, negative generalisations are made about an entire nation deserves to be slapped down hard.

zakk9 made what I felt were generalisations about wealthy Thais that had no basis in actual fact beyond his own churlish prejudices.

I produced evidence that clearly proved my point. He just continued to trot out his rhetoric.

He can't possibly justify an assertion in which he characterizes all wealthy Thais as tax-evading, greedy, self-obsessed prigs who will do anything to avoid contributing to the wellbeing of the country.

Whether that stupid assumption stems from socialist political leanings is neither here nor there - the fact is he simply doesn't have any REAL evidence to support it

From what my experience tells me is that those who insinuate all Hiso Thais are tax dodgers and corrupt individuals have never actually met a hiso Thai. My wife is hiso, her family paid for our condo, her car, half our wedding, and even gave me an interest free loan to settle my credit cards back in the UK.....oh, and they pay their taxes.

Some farang just cannot accept that Thais earn more than them and drive around in cars and have possessions that the farang can only dream of......I think back home we call in a severe case of the green eyed monster.

No, not all hiso Thais are tax dodgers, but many are, and those who pay tax pay very little. Tax levels are decided by politicians, and since most influential politicians in Thailand come from the rich elite, they ensure that the rich elite pay very little tax. Income tax in Thailand represents only a tiny fraction of what it is in European nations. In addition to low VAT and rampant corruption, this is an important reason why Thailand has problems getting out of third world conditions. A few luxury malls in Bangkok won't change that. Neither will an overabundance of Italian supercars. Government schools and other facilities in rural Thailand are often of the same low standard as in Cambodia, Myanmar and Laos, countries that I'm sure most people in Thailand would rather avoid comparing themselves with.

[ExpatOilWorker]

Amazing that the electricity consumption per person in Mae Hong Son on average is only 30 W.

Good on them that they live green.and dark!

[ExpatOilWorker]

I wonder just how much business these designer shops do. Whenever I've wandered through any of these malls none of the shops have ever had a single customer. Making a profit cannot possibly be their primary concern. Exposure maybe? I don't know.

A suit at Zegna is priced around 100,000b... So they don't need many customers to make a profit.

Of course, concerning the exposure it is also true. They must be present in these luxury malls. The rent is high but the products are priced accordingly.

I use to date a girl from the Louis Vuitton shop at Gayson and from memory she said they sold for about 10 million baht a month, and this is a fair number of years ago.

Sometimes when she offered to fill out the "VAT return form", the customer would just say never mind and pay. Rich people have a good life.