Briton allegedly hits and kills Thai motorcyclist

[richard_smith237]

Dash Cam !.....

Accidents such as this are exactly why I have had a dash cam installed in my last 3 cars.

I'm not suggesting who is at fault here - we are not fully aware of the facts.

That said: I have been in similar situations numerous times while driving down the highways.... Travelling at speed a motorcycle pulls out across the lanes, I have to take avoiding action.

It also commonly happens with beaten up old pickups, pulling out into the fast (right hand most) lane pottering along at 30 kmh for a U turn 1 km up the road.

[gemguy]

Best wishes to the Brit.

I hope has first class insurance and a dash cam. Two things I would never drive here without.

If the deceased family demand some money, I hope they are swiftly told to F Off.

If he did not have a helmet nor insurance that covers death, and pulls across lanes without looking behind, then there is no one else to blame for his and their predicament.

Wish it was easy as that. Unfortunately, my wife, a Thai national, had an intoxicated, non-helmet wearing, unlicensed, uninsured and unregistered bike rider drive into her car and sadly pass away two days later from his injuries. She was interviewed by police, and on the first day everyone was apologetic and accepted that the rider was at fault.

However, once it became known that she was married to an expat, was a school teacher, had first class insurance and was driving a new car, the dollar signs lit up in the eyes of the deceased's family. Her insurer provided a representative and during the second interview, when the family decided they wanted compensation, this representative took their side and suggested my wife pay compensation, as should the insurer.

My wife dismissed him, then immediately rang the insurer, who sacked the representative and provided another, who was really switched on. He would not relent and declined to provide anything and also told my wife that all she had to say was, "speak to my insurer" and nothing else. She ended up having to attend the police station on 3 occasions, 5 to 6 hours at a time where the family tried to get 100,000 from the wife and 5000,000 from the insurer. She provided 2,000 baht toward the funeral and this was accepted by the family but they wanted more.

However, during her 3rd attendance, the insurer had the doctor, who performed the medical examination prior to and after death, attend and it was his report that provided the evidence that proved, beyond doubt, that they rider had sustained internal and head injuries that could only have been caused by him driving into her vehicle, as she initially indicated. All this occurred despite evidence provided by witnesses and the location of damage on the vehicle.

This saw the family finally admit that the deceased was at fault and they dropped all claims to any current or future compensation by signing papers relinquishing those rights. So believe me, it is not all black and white, and I really hope the Brit has a good insurer and representative because he will need it given the circumstances and the fact that he was the driver. The second representative also advised us that, despite a party being at fault, that on occasions and depending on the circumstances and whether or not they survive, either they or their family could seek and sometimes receive compensation.

We do not have a dash cam but always carry a camera, which allowed my wife to take photographs at the scene. With the bike impacting with the driver' door I don't think a cam would have been of any assistance on this occasion. I really feel for the Brit because he will go through his own private hell, firstly because a death has occurred and now the drawn out process of the investigation and possible negotiations between those who will want to be compensated.

No way.......according to some people on this forum.....this would never happen.

Meantime I fully understand the implications.

Edited April 13, 2015 by gemguy

[61guitarman61]

A few years ago I had a similar experience, with the exception the Thai motor-bike rider did not die. He did brake both legs.

After going for my insurance company for untold compensation, which he did not get, the end of the story is I got 2 years jail. My lawyer got the sentence suspended for 2 years.

The motor-bike rider pulled straight out in front of me, but in court, being a foreigner, I was slaughtered. My legal costs were not small. My eventual fine was minute. I had my passport confiscated, which meant I was unable to leave Thailand.

I had the floor wiped up with me. Why ? Because I was a foreigner. Was on a hiding for nothing from the moment of impact. The police dealt with the matter in a very 2-faced way.

I was the motorbike riding victim 4 years ago.

Driving on a 4 lane high speed roadway in the right lane (passing/fast lane) overtaking a gravel truck who was also pulling a trailer. He was in the far left lane and, without signalling, pulled a u-turn across all lanes, cutting me off and causing me to run into him. I suffered severe injuries and was in hospital for 3 weeks.

Now starts the court process. I got a Thai attorney who came highly recommended: 30 years of practice and a law professor at the university. It was quite clear who was at fault and it certainly was not me. I paid my fee to the attorney to represent for the civil case as well as the criminal case. The court confiscated my passport during the criminal hearings also. After 4 months, the judge finally rendered his decision. Shared fault. He fined me 1,000 baht and sentenced the other driver to 1 year in jail. The pother driver appealed the verdict and, of course, had his sentence reduced to 20,000 baht fine. Yep. Oh, by the way, in his decision, because of shared fault, he also summarily dismissed my civil case. He ordered the other driver, and the company that the driver was working for who owned the truck, to pay me 30,000 baht for my medical. That's it. I have permanent nerve damage to my eye, my neck is f'd, my face is disfigured, I lost my ability to do my job back in the USA, and the Thai driver gets off scot-free because of corruption. I should have gotten a million baht, but the judge and police and probably my own attorney were all paid off for a fraction of what my settlement would have been.

Someone said in an earlier comment to not bash Thai drivers... Well, a Thai driver, and Thai court, completely screwed my life up. Yeah, Thailand is all smiles and fun until some idiot does something like this to you. There is no fairness or justice in this country. That's a fact.

[evadgib]

Wait a minute, there seems to be more to the story, or the way the report was written is a bit confusing.

What speed was the car going that the body of the motorcyclist was 200m away from where the car stopped, with the "bike stuck at the front of the car"?

Must have been quite high speed, or the reaction of the driver was extremely slow. You can stop a car going 100km/h in way less than 200m!

Assuming the car went fast, it's hard to believe that a 68 year old rider would speed up to get in front of the car.

Seems to me that the car driver didn't see the slower motorcycle, maybe going way too fast. It's still the fault of the motorcyclist, though.

Then the car crashed into the motorcycle, she said. Don't know if it's poor English but wouldn't the motorcycle crash into the car if it was cutting in front of it?

Whatevr happened, it's sad to hear that the rider died, being one of many who will get killed in the next few days, as every year.

A dashcam would answer much of the above. They are available from Lazada (sponsors of this site) & delivered to your door.

I hope this driver had one...

Edit: Upon reading some of the posts here I should add that the more expensive models show your speed and location (GPS) and have a second 'eye' facing right (drivers door) or into the car.

Edited April 13, 2015 by evadgib

[elgordo38]

Best wishes to the Brit.

I hope has first class insurance and a dash cam. Two things I would never drive here without.

If the deceased family demand some money, I hope they are swiftly told to F Off.

If he did not have a helmet nor insurance that covers death, and pulls across lanes without looking behind, then there is no one else to blame for his and their predicament.

Your totally right about the dash cam me I would not even buy a vehicle here. Owning and driving one is a hassle. Driving being the bigger one. With all the idiots on the roads during Songkran I would not feel safe even in a bus.

[gemguy]

A few years ago I had a similar experience, with the exception the Thai motor-bike rider did not die. He did brake both legs.

After going for my insurance company for untold compensation, which he did not get, the end of the story is I got 2 years jail. My lawyer got the sentence suspended for 2 years.

The motor-bike rider pulled straight out in front of me, but in court, being a foreigner, I was slaughtered. My legal costs were not small. My eventual fine was minute. I had my passport confiscated, which meant I was unable to leave Thailand.

I had the floor wiped up with me. Why ? Because I was a foreigner. Was on a hiding for nothing from the moment of impact. The police dealt with the matter in a very 2-faced way.

I was the motorbike riding victim 4 years ago.

Driving on a 4 lane high speed roadway in the right lane (passing/fast lane) overtaking a gravel truck who was also pulling a trailer. He was in the far left lane and, without signalling, pulled a u-turn across all lanes, cutting me off and causing me to run into him. I suffered severe injuries and was in hospital for 3 weeks.

Now starts the court process. I got a Thai attorney who came highly recommended: 30 years of practice and a law professor at the university. It was quite clear who was at fault and it certainly was not me. I paid my fee to the attorney to represent for the civil case as well as the criminal case. The court confiscated my passport during the criminal hearings also. After 4 months, the judge finally rendered his decision. Shared fault. He fined me 1,000 baht and sentenced the other driver to 1 year in jail. The pother driver appealed the verdict and, of course, had his sentence reduced to 20,000 baht fine. Yep. Oh, by the way, in his decision, because of shared fault, he also summarily dismissed my civil case. He ordered the other driver, and the company that the driver was working for who owned the truck, to pay me 30,000 baht for my medical. That's it. I have permanent nerve damage to my eye, my neck is f'd, my face is disfigured, I lost my ability to do my job back in the USA, and the Thai driver gets off scot-free because of corruption. I should have gotten a million baht, but the judge and police and probably my own attorney were all paid off for a fraction of what my settlement would have been.

Someone said in an earlier comment to not bash Thai drivers... Well, a Thai driver, and Thai court, completely screwed my life up. Yeah, Thailand is all smiles and fun until some idiot does something like this to you. There is no fairness or justice in this country. That's a fact.

According to some people on this forum....this sort of true life story does not happen, in their opinion, while it is utter nonsense to think such occurrences exist.

Meantime...I know exactly what you are talking about and believe every word.

Cheers

[brewsterbudgen]

Best wishes to the Brit.

I hope has first class insurance and a dash cam. Two things I would never drive here without.

If the deceased family demand some money, I hope they are swiftly told to F Off.

If he did not have a helmet nor insurance that covers death, and pulls across lanes without looking behind, then there is no one else to blame for his and their predicament.

Wish it was easy as that. Unfortunately, my wife, a Thai national, had an intoxicated, non-helmet wearing, unlicensed, uninsured and unregistered bike rider drive into her car and sadly pass away two days later from his injuries. She was travelling at 40 kilometres on a four lane but undivided road, through a major town, in peak hour, when the rider came out of a side street on her right and drove into the driver's door. Police attended, marked and photographed the scene, the man was taken away by rescue and my wife then drove to the police station.

Here she was interviewed by police, and everyone, including police, were apologetic and accepted that the rider was at fault. However, once it became known that she was married to an expat, was a school teacher, had first class insurance and was driving a new car, the dollar signs lit up in the eyes of the deceased's family. Her insurer provided a representative but during the second interview, when the family decided they wanted compensation, this representative took their side and suggested my wife pay compensation, as should the insurer.

My wife dismissed him, then immediately rang the insurer, who sacked the representative and provided another, who was really switched on. He would not relent and declined to provide anything and also told my wife that all she had to say was, "speak to my insurer" and nothing else. She ended up having to attend the police station on 3 occasions, 5 to 6 hours at a time, where the family tried to get 100,000 from the wife and 5000,000 from the insurer. She provided 2,000 baht toward the funeral and this was accepted by the family but they wanted more.

However, during her 3rd attendance, the insurer had the doctor, who performed the medical examination prior to and after death, attend and it was his report that provided the evidence that proved, beyond doubt, that they rider had sustained internal and head injuries that could only have been caused by him driving into her vehicle, as she initially indicated. All this occurred, despite evidence provided by witnesses and the location of damage on the vehicle.

This saw the family finally admit that the deceased was at fault and they dropped all claims to any current or future compensation by signing papers relinquishing those rights. So believe me, it is not all black and white, and I really hope the Brit has a good insurer and representative because he will need it given the circumstances and the fact that he was the driver. The second representative also advised us that, despite a party being at fault, that on occasions and depending on the circumstances and whether or not they survive, either they or their family could seek and sometimes receive compensation.

We do not have a dash cam but always carry a camera, which allowed my wife to take photographs at the scene. With the bike impacting with the driver' door I don't think a cam would have been of any assistance on this occasion. I really feel for the Brit because he will go through his own private hell, firstly because a death has occurred and now the drawn out process of the investigation and possible negotiations between those who will want to be compensated.

Good to know that decent legal representation can help.

[61guitarman61]

Best wishes to the Brit.

I hope has first class insurance and a dash cam. Two things I would never drive here without.

If the deceased family demand some money, I hope they are swiftly told to F Off.

If he did not have a helmet nor insurance that covers death, and pulls across lanes without looking behind, then there is no one else to blame for his and their predicament.

Wish it was easy as that. Unfortunately, my wife, a Thai national, had an intoxicated, non-helmet wearing, unlicensed, uninsured and unregistered bike rider drive into her car and sadly pass away two days later from his injuries. She was travelling at 40 kilometres on a four lane but undivided road, through a major town, in peak hour, when the rider came out of a side street on her right and drove into the driver's door. Police attended, marked and photographed the scene, the man was taken away by rescue and my wife then drove to the police station.

Here she was interviewed by police, and everyone, including police, were apologetic and accepted that the rider was at fault. However, once it became known that she was married to an expat, was a school teacher, had first class insurance and was driving a new car, the dollar signs lit up in the eyes of the deceased's family. Her insurer provided a representative but during the second interview, when the family decided they wanted compensation, this representative took their side and suggested my wife pay compensation, as should the insurer.

My wife dismissed him, then immediately rang the insurer, who sacked the representative and provided another, who was really switched on. He would not relent and declined to provide anything and also told my wife that all she had to say was, "speak to my insurer" and nothing else. She ended up having to attend the police station on 3 occasions, 5 to 6 hours at a time, where the family tried to get 100,000 from the wife and 5000,000 from the insurer. She provided 2,000 baht toward the funeral and this was accepted by the family but they wanted more.

However, during her 3rd attendance, the insurer had the doctor, who performed the medical examination prior to and after death, attend and it was his report that provided the evidence that proved, beyond doubt, that they rider had sustained internal and head injuries that could only have been caused by him driving into her vehicle, as she initially indicated. All this occurred, despite evidence provided by witnesses and the location of damage on the vehicle.

This saw the family finally admit that the deceased was at fault and they dropped all claims to any current or future compensation by signing papers relinquishing those rights. So believe me, it is not all black and white, and I really hope the Brit has a good insurer and representative because he will need it given the circumstances and the fact that he was the driver. The second representative also advised us that, despite a party being at fault, that on occasions and depending on the circumstances and whether or not they survive, either they or their family could seek and sometimes receive compensation.

We do not have a dash cam but always carry a camera, which allowed my wife to take photographs at the scene. With the bike impacting with the driver' door I don't think a cam would have been of any assistance on this occasion. I really feel for the Brit because he will go through his own private hell, firstly because a death has occurred and now the drawn out process of the investigation and possible negotiations between those who will want to be compensated.

Good to know that decent legal representation can help.

It all comes down to who has the bigger wallet. My battle was against a very wealthy company with deep pockets and, even though I had a supposed top notch attorney, had strong evidence to support the other party's guilt, had documented damages of personal injury, LOST the case. How could this happen? Hmmmm...... I wonder............

[richard_smith237]

Amongst several other reasons....the possible accident reason is the one main reason I have never even given thought about owning and or driving a Motor Vehicle here in Thailand.

Basically ( IF ) you do have an accident with a Thai person you are going to be held accountable regardless of the circumstances and or who did what and or what actually happened and who is at fault.

If the Thai person does not have insurance then who will be paying??

If the Thai person did have insurance then the Thai drivers insurance company will be thinking the foreigners insurance company should pay....even if the Thai driver was at fault ..and no doubt about it and obvious to everyone...the foreigner should pay.

If the foreigner has Thai company motor vehicle insurance then there is a good chance his insurance company will not cover him and think the same as everyone else....the foreigner should pay.

I would go so far as to say that if you were simply the passenger in a motor vehicle accident there is a very real chance they would try to hold you accountable in some manner.....and or try to make you part with your money...because you were there...that is why.

Complete and utter nonsense posted by either an ignorant fool or a troll. Every single Thai bashing point you made in that post should be treated with absolute contempt.

And that rude comment would be YOUR OPINION......and your opinion only.....that is until it happens to you ...like it has happened to many other foreigners who find out the hard way..... the Foreigner pays when he should not be paying.

Does that mean every time...of course not...while anyone else could figure that part out.

Just because you are a Moderator does not mean you are correct...as in you are just the moderator and what you state, for the record, is just YOUR OPINION...and nothing else of importance.

You personally tell all the foreigners ( that means anyone other than Thai ) how you are so adamantly correct when they did have to pay when it was not their fault....while it is not only motor vehicle insurance matters we are talking about here.

Your uncalled for retort should be held in utter contempt.

Cheers to you also.

gemguy - you have been ill-informed....

Many foreigners, myself included, have been involved in accidents here.

My experience is not that the foreigner is automatically at fault. I consider such comments 'bar-stool-paranoia'.... This is the sort of information I received at 22 years old when I first arrived here listening to those wiley expats who never ventured far from the bar scene or other similarly minded expats / foreigners - after living here for a while and finding my own feet I soon learned how dated, incorrect and paranoid many of these opinions were.

My experience here has shown that I will be treated very much in the same way as I Thai would.

Of course, we all hear stories where an attempt would be made to 'blame' the foreigner, however, in much the same way a Thai perceived as being wealthier would be initially proportioned blame / costs.

'The Path of Least Resistance' is the way things are normally worked out. Because this is different from our own countries doesn't mean 'they' are against the foreigner... its just people being lazy and taking the easiest route to solve a situation.

When in a situation if a foreigner politely sticks to their guns they will be treated fairly and more often than not favourably.

------

More on topic:

In the case of a fatality (motorcycle on car) regardless of guilt it may be considered more 'caring' if a donation (not an admission of guilt) is made to the family of the deceased towards the funeral costs. This is what happens here.

This is one of those terrible tragic situations not well covered by Law or Insurance whereby in the West we'd have better driver / rider education, better and safer road design, more comprehensive insurance coverage. In the event of a serious accident a long drawn out unbiased process proportioning blame and charges (if necessary).

Here in Thailand the family of the poor deceased, RIP, and unfortunate Foreigner must sort things out a little differently but in a manner which has been the norm here for years.

[brewsterbudgen]

Amongst several other reasons....the possible accident reason is the one main reason I have never even given thought about owning and or driving a Motor Vehicle here in Thailand.

Basically ( IF ) you do have an accident with a Thai person you are going to be held accountable regardless of the circumstances and or who did what and or what actually happened and who is at fault.

If the Thai person does not have insurance then who will be paying??

If the Thai person did have insurance then the Thai drivers insurance company will be thinking the foreigners insurance company should pay....even if the Thai driver was at fault ..and no doubt about it and obvious to everyone...the foreigner should pay.

If the foreigner has Thai company motor vehicle insurance then there is a good chance his insurance company will not cover him and think the same as everyone else....the foreigner should pay.

I would go so far as to say that if you were simply the passenger in a motor vehicle accident there is a very real chance they would try to hold you accountable in some manner.....and or try to make you part with your money...because you were there...that is why.

Complete and utter nonsense posted by either an ignorant fool or a troll. Every single Thai bashing point you made in that post should be treated with absolute contempt.

And that rude comment would be YOUR OPINION......and your opinion only.....that is until it happens to you ...like it has happened to many other foreigners who find out the hard way..... the Foreigner pays when he should not be paying.

Does that mean every time...of course not...while anyone else could figure that part out.

Just because you are a Moderator does not mean you are correct...as in you are just the moderator and what you state, for the record, is just YOUR OPINION...and nothing else of importance.

You personally tell all the foreigners ( that means anyone other than Thai ) how you are so adamantly correct when they did have to pay when it was not their fault....while it is not only motor vehicle insurance matters we are talking about here.

Your uncalled for retort should be held in utter contempt.

Cheers to you also.

gemguy - you have been ill-informed....

Many foreigners, myself included, have been involved in accidents here.

My experience is not that the foreigner is automatically at fault. I consider such comments 'bar-stool-paranoia'.... This is the sort of information I received at 22 years old when I first arrived here listening to those wiley expats who never ventured far from the bar scene or other similarly minded expats / foreigners - after living here for a while and finding my own feet I soon learned how dated, incorrect and paranoid many of these opinions were.

My experience here has shown that I will be treated very much in the same way as I Thai would.

Of course, we all hear stories where an attempt would be made to 'blame' the foreigner, however, in much the same way a Thai perceived as being wealthier would be initially proportioned blame / costs.

'The Path of Least Resistance' is the way things are normally worked out. Because this is different from our own countries doesn't mean 'they' are against the foreigner... its just people being lazy and taking the easiest route to solve a situation.

When in a situation if a foreigner politely sticks to their guns they will be treated fairly and more often than not favourably.

------

More on topic:

In the case of a fatality (motorcycle on car) regardless of guilt it may be considered more 'caring' if a donation (not an admission of guilt) is made to the family of the deceased towards the funeral costs. This is what happens here.

This is one of those terrible tragic situations not well covered by Law or Insurance whereby in the West we'd have better driver / rider education, better and safer road design, more comprehensive insurance coverage. In the event of a serious accident a long drawn out unbiased process proportioning blame and charges (if necessary).

Here in Thailand the family of the poor deceased, RIP, and unfortunate Foreigner must sort things out a little differently but in a manner which has been the norm here for years.

Excellent, sensible and informed post. Thanks.

[richard_smith237]

A few years ago I had a similar experience, with the exception the Thai motor-bike rider did not die. He did brake both legs.

After going for my insurance company for untold compensation, which he did not get, the end of the story is I got 2 years jail. My lawyer got the sentence suspended for 2 years.

The motor-bike rider pulled straight out in front of me, but in court, being a foreigner, I was slaughtered. My legal costs were not small. My eventual fine was minute. I had my passport confiscated, which meant I was unable to leave Thailand.

I had the floor wiped up with me. Why ? Because I was a foreigner. Was on a hiding for nothing from the moment of impact. The police dealt with the matter in a very 2-faced way.

I was the motorbike riding victim 4 years ago.

Driving on a 4 lane high speed roadway in the right lane (passing/fast lane) overtaking a gravel truck who was also pulling a trailer. He was in the far left lane and, without signalling, pulled a u-turn across all lanes, cutting me off and causing me to run into him. I suffered severe injuries and was in hospital for 3 weeks.

Now starts the court process. I got a Thai attorney who came highly recommended: 30 years of practice and a law professor at the university. It was quite clear who was at fault and it certainly was not me. I paid my fee to the attorney to represent for the civil case as well as the criminal case. The court confiscated my passport during the criminal hearings also. After 4 months, the judge finally rendered his decision. Shared fault. He fined me 1,000 baht and sentenced the other driver to 1 year in jail. The pother driver appealed the verdict and, of course, had his sentence reduced to 20,000 baht fine. Yep. Oh, by the way, in his decision, because of shared fault, he also summarily dismissed my civil case. He ordered the other driver, and the company that the driver was working for who owned the truck, to pay me 30,000 baht for my medical. That's it. I have permanent nerve damage to my eye, my neck is f'd, my face is disfigured, I lost my ability to do my job back in the USA, and the Thai driver gets off scot-free because of corruption. I should have gotten a million baht, but the judge and police and probably my own attorney were all paid off for a fraction of what my settlement would have been.

Someone said in an earlier comment to not bash Thai drivers... Well, a Thai driver, and Thai court, completely screwed my life up. Yeah, Thailand is all smiles and fun until some idiot does something like this to you. There is no fairness or justice in this country. That's a fact.

According to some people on this forum....this sort of true life story does not happen, in their opinion, while it is utter nonsense to think such occurrences exist.

Meantime...I know exactly what you are talking about and believe every word.

Cheers

This is an awful story and I really feel for 61guitarman61...

However, had it been a Thai a motorcycle the outcome would / may have been very similar.

Equally so, had it been a Western Driver and thai motorcyclist, again the outcome would / may have been very similar.

Some are suggesting that because a foreigner is involved that the results are different. This is not the case. But, because we don't see the same degree of compensation that we expect or would see in the West we scream 'corruption' or 'unfair' treatment.

While trying to remain sympathetic to those who've been involved in accidents here, the physical consequences of serious accidents are often worse than in the West while the financial and legal consequences are more often than not significantly less.

What we do need to understand here is that the outcome is often different to what we expect it would be. BUT, that outcome is rarely different for a foreigner than it would be for a Thai... Some people just can't see that.

Of course, there are injustices, Thai's encounter them too.

[robblok]

@61guitarman61

The fact that you were in the fast lane automatically means your guilty too. I hate this rule but as a MC rider you are legally only allowed in the left most lane. So there is legal grounds for shared blame.

I ride a scooter and a Big bike (first class insurance on the big bike), and I hate the rule.. but it is there and can be used against MC riders when the police wants it.

[kurce]

According to this report, he hit the windshield and then ended up 200 meters away? There has to be more to the story.

Exactly, the wife's version of events doesn't make sense at all.

For the car to stop 200 meters away it would of impacted at 120+ km/h.

Therefore drawing conclusions from the wife's version, the Honda wave overtook them at 130+ km/h, cut in front and stopped in an instant, causing the vehicle to hit them at 120 km/h. Not possible.

If a driver cuts in front of you, your reaction is to brake, slow down and create some distance between the vehicles.

If the motorbike cut in front then applied brakes to stop possibly preparing to turn, you would still react immediately and most likely hit the motorbike, but certainly not at high speed.

My theory is the motorbike was stopped in the right lane possibly waiting to turn and was rear ended at high speed. Driver of the car either wasn't concentrating and didn't see the motorbike until it was too late to react or the motorbike had no lights and wasn't visible.

Cheers.

[Nobb]

I wonder if they tested the motor cycle drivers alcohol blood tests. They drive stupid and some one else always get blamed!

[balo]

Wearing a crash helmet?

Of course not, TIT , besides a cheap BIG C helmet that all Thais buy would not protect the head in an accident like this.

Edited April 13, 2015 by balo

[balo]

I would never ride a bike in Thailand, never , I am not a gambler.

In a car I feel in control and safer even if some day a truck could hit me. But I always expect the worst when I'm out driving. I have never had an accident here but been close , thanks to my reaction and defensive driving I have avoided situations that could have ended in tragedy. I think maybe only 10% of the drivers thinks like me, the rest are living on the edge.

[gemguy]

Amongst several other reasons....the possible accident reason is the one main reason I have never even given thought about owning and or driving a Motor Vehicle here in Thailand.

Basically ( IF ) you do have an accident with a Thai person you are going to be held accountable regardless of the circumstances and or who did what and or what actually happened and who is at fault.

If the Thai person does not have insurance then who will be paying??

If the Thai person did have insurance then the Thai drivers insurance company will be thinking the foreigners insurance company should pay....even if the Thai driver was at fault ..and no doubt about it and obvious to everyone...the foreigner should pay.

If the foreigner has Thai company motor vehicle insurance then there is a good chance his insurance company will not cover him and think the same as everyone else....the foreigner should pay.

I would go so far as to say that if you were simply the passenger in a motor vehicle accident there is a very real chance they would try to hold you accountable in some manner.....and or try to make you part with your money...because you were there...that is why.

Complete and utter nonsense posted by either an ignorant fool or a troll. Every single Thai bashing point you made in that post should be treated with absolute contempt.

And that rude comment would be YOUR OPINION......and your opinion only.....that is until it happens to you ...like it has happened to many other foreigners who find out the hard way..... the Foreigner pays when he should not be paying.

Does that mean every time...of course not...while anyone else could figure that part out.

Just because you are a Moderator does not mean you are correct...as in you are just the moderator and what you state, for the record, is just YOUR OPINION...and nothing else of importance.

You personally tell all the foreigners ( that means anyone other than Thai ) how you are so adamantly correct when they did have to pay when it was not their fault....while it is not only motor vehicle insurance matters we are talking about here.

Your uncalled for retort should be held in utter contempt.

Cheers to you also.

gemguy - you have been ill-informed....

Many foreigners, myself included, have been involved in accidents here.

My experience is not that the foreigner is automatically at fault. I consider such comments 'bar-stool-paranoia'.... This is the sort of information I received at 22 years old when I first arrived here listening to those wiley expats who never ventured far from the bar scene or other similarly minded expats / foreigners - after living here for a while and finding my own feet I soon learned how dated, incorrect and paranoid many of these opinions were.

My experience here has shown that I will be treated very much in the same way as I Thai would.

Of course, we all hear stories where an attempt would be made to 'blame' the foreigner, however, in much the same way a Thai perceived as being wealthier would be initially proportioned blame / costs.

'The Path of Least Resistance' is the way things are normally worked out. Because this is different from our own countries doesn't mean 'they' are against the foreigner... its just people being lazy and taking the easiest route to solve a situation.

When in a situation if a foreigner politely sticks to their guns they will be treated fairly and more often than not favourably.

------

More on topic:

In the case of a fatality (motorcycle on car) regardless of guilt it may be considered more 'caring' if a donation (not an admission of guilt) is made to the family of the deceased towards the funeral costs. This is what happens here.

This is one of those terrible tragic situations not well covered by Law or Insurance whereby in the West we'd have better driver / rider education, better and safer road design, more comprehensive insurance coverage. In the event of a serious accident a long drawn out unbiased process proportioning blame and charges (if necessary).

Here in Thailand the family of the poor deceased, RIP, and unfortunate Foreigner must sort things out a little differently but in a manner which has been the norm here for years.

You have points to be considered.

Meantime.....when it happens to you....then you may be singing a different song ...while being held in jail and or threatened with long prison sentences.

How about you see it that way also.....and no hard feelings.

And I have been here for 25 years...not fresh off the airplane like you are implying

Cheers

Edited April 13, 2015 by gemguy

[maanoi]

To the people saying something wrong because he should of been able to stop within 200m.....in my experience if a Thai says its 200m then the actual distance can be anywhere from 50m to 1km

[Chonburiram]

If YOU hit something/-one YOU are at fault, end of story.

If you still believe there is a "fast lane" reeducate yourself.

"Fast lanes" all around the world have no U- turn options included...

Figure this, and you are fit for driving.

[gemguy]

Just to add:

Many cases of foreigners paying, when it was not their fault, are simply not heard about.

Without a doubt many foreign nationals are treated fairly when they are involved in an accident...while that is how it should be anyhow and should not be commended as if it is some sort of rare privilege to be treated correctly and honestly and with respect.

It is all the corrupted cases, so to speak, amongst all the opportunistic cases that we need to be aware of while knowing that you have too much chance of being faulted and or wrongly accused and or paying for someone else's recklessness or drunkenness or stupidity or dangerous driving.

All too often it goes sideways...sooner or later...because it involves money while the Thais do not like to part with their money ...or they see an opportunity to make some money.

They know well the foreigner is vulnerable....so, many of them, as in not all ..but many would at least try to turn it around and blame the foreigner and or make the foreigner pay.

I can assure you if you were to gather up all the stories told by foreigners ( any nationality ) relative to the foreigner having to pay for something ( anything under any number of circumstances) when they should not have paid but were forced or coerced or threatened or held in custody and made to pay you would not be so quick to argue against how often it happens.

When it happens to you then you will have a different point of view.

Cheers

Edited April 13, 2015 by gemguy

[richard_smith237]

gemguy - you have been ill-informed....

Many foreigners, myself included, have been involved in accidents here.

My experience is not that the foreigner is automatically at fault. I consider such comments 'bar-stool-paranoia'.... This is the sort of information I received at 22 years old when I first arrived here listening to those wiley expats who never ventured far from the bar scene or other similarly minded expats / foreigners - after living here for a while and finding my own feet I soon learned how dated, incorrect and paranoid many of these opinions were.

My experience here has shown that I will be treated very much in the same way as I Thai would.

Of course, we all hear stories where an attempt would be made to 'blame' the foreigner, however, in much the same way a Thai perceived as being wealthier would be initially proportioned blame / costs.

'The Path of Least Resistance' is the way things are normally worked out. Because this is different from our own countries doesn't mean 'they' are against the foreigner... its just people being lazy and taking the easiest route to solve a situation.

When in a situation if a foreigner politely sticks to their guns they will be treated fairly and more often than not favourably.

------

More on topic:

In the case of a fatality (motorcycle on car) regardless of guilt it may be considered more 'caring' if a donation (not an admission of guilt) is made to the family of the deceased towards the funeral costs. This is what happens here.

This is one of those terrible tragic situations not well covered by Law or Insurance whereby in the West we'd have better driver / rider education, better and safer road design, more comprehensive insurance coverage. In the event of a serious accident a long drawn out unbiased process proportioning blame and charges (if necessary).

Here in Thailand the family of the poor deceased, RIP, and unfortunate Foreigner must sort things out a little differently but in a manner which has been the norm here for years.

You have points to be considered.

Meantime.....when it happens to you....then you may be singing a different song ...while being held in jail and or threatened with long prison sentences.

How about you see it that way also.....and no hard feelings.

And I have been here for 25 years...not fresh off the airplane like you are implying

Cheers

I have been involved in accidents and been dealt with equally and fairly.... That said - these accidents were not serious (no injuries).

I have a dashcam to protect myself from taking the blame (when blameless) when consequences are more serious... As you said Gemguy - I may well be singing a different song if I am involved in a more serious collision - you may be right, If I believed you or felt that I could be treated unequally or unfairly when involved in an unavoidable accident I wouldn't be here...

I'm aware damages to me may be very little, I'm also aware there is possibility some damaged parties may attempt to get some extra money from me.

I just don't subscribe to the theory that the 'foreigner is always at fault' - that has not been my experience here, neither has it been the experience of many friends who've been driving for numerous years.

Advice to anyone who may encounter such situations: Get a dash-cam, if involved in an accident be polite, don't accept blame, get a trusted and respectable Thai to assist if you need translation, have ready access to bail money.

Under Thai law when a death is involved the driver will always be arrested... thats just the way it is. There is no way of avoiding that.

Edited April 13, 2015 by richard_smith237

[richard_smith237]

Just to add:

Many cases of foreigners paying, when it was not their fault, are simply not heard about.

Without a doubt many foreign nationals are treated fairly when they are involved in an accident...while that is how it should be anyhow and should not be commended as if it is some sort of rare privilege to be treated correctly and honestly and with respect.

It is all the corrupted cases, so to speak, amongst all the opportunistic cases that we need to be aware of while knowing that you have too much chance of being faulted and or wrongly accused and or paying for someone else's recklessness or drunkenness or stupidity or dangerous driving.

All too often it goes sideways...sooner or later...because it involves money while the Thais do not like to part with their money ...or they see an opportunity to make some money.

They know well the foreigner is vulnerable....so, many of them, as in not all ..but many would at least try to turn it around and blame the foreigner and or make the foreigner pay.

I can assure you if you were to gather up all the stories told by foreigners ( any nationality ) relative to the foreigner having to pay for something ( anything under any number of circumstances) when they should not have paid but were forced or coerced or threatened or held in custody and made to pay you would not be so quick to argue against how often it happens.

When it happens to you then you will have a different point of view.

Cheers

All valid and fair points..... I agree that the system is often unfair and when some see an opportunity to get some extra money they'll take it.

However, I'm not so sure its 'blame the foreigner' when an accident happens the results tends to be 'blame anyone else' and use any means possible... in a society where the majority are emotionally ill equipped to take responsibility, the 'blame anyone else at any cost' is often the path taken... the fact that we are a foreigner in such circumstances may at first make things more convenient for the other party until they realise that we cannot be easily manipulated or extorted.

----

Similar Topic:

My Wife's family Driver hit a cyclist crossing a highway in heavy and fast moving traffic. It turns out the cyclist was mentally disabled and shouldn't have been unsupervised. The driver was let off, but my Father in Law still paid THB 50,000 to the family.

We as Westerners may see this as a very expensive way of handling this when not responsible - thus we may see a financial request such as this as an attempt at extortion under such circumstances and start crying 'unfair treatment and corruption'. We are not used to the way things are done here as these occurrences are extremely rare to us Westerners, thus when involved we are often shocked, confused, sometimes frightened and paranoid... However, these are the way things are handled here.

[Chonburiram]

...causing me to run into him...

Quintessence...

[richard_smith237]

According to this report, he hit the windshield and then ended up 200 meters away? There has to be more to the story.

Exactly, the wife's version of events doesn't make sense at all.

For the car to stop 200 meters away it would of impacted at 120+ km/h.

Therefore drawing conclusions from the wife's version, the Honda wave overtook them at 130+ km/h, cut in front and stopped in an instant, causing the vehicle to hit them at 120 km/h. Not possible.

If a driver cuts in front of you, your reaction is to brake, slow down and create some distance between the vehicles.

If the motorbike cut in front then applied brakes to stop possibly preparing to turn, you would still react immediately and most likely hit the motorbike, but certainly not at high speed.

My theory is the motorbike was stopped in the right lane possibly waiting to turn and was rear ended at high speed. Driver of the car either wasn't concentrating and didn't see the motorbike until it was too late to react or the motorbike had no lights and wasn't visible.

Cheers.

Thats not quite the way I understood it...

Rather I understood that the motorcycle suddenly pulled across the three lanes into the path of the car in the right hand most lane... based on this I suspect this Motorcycle didn't look and the accident was pretty much unavoidable.

With regards to the 200m issue... many folk I know (mostly Thai) have difficulty estimating distance... i.e. I'll ask a taxi to turn left in 200m and he'll slow right down and look for a turning in 50m - Thus: I wouldn't pay too much attention to the 200m comment.

[technologybytes]

This thread seems to be more about opinions than facts.

The police do not always assume a foreigner is at fault, sometimes a foreigner may be treated unfairly but that can happen to Thai's also.

[gemguy]

gemguy - you have been ill-informed....

Many foreigners, myself included, have been involved in accidents here.

My experience is not that the foreigner is automatically at fault. I consider such comments 'bar-stool-paranoia'.... This is the sort of information I received at 22 years old when I first arrived here listening to those wiley expats who never ventured far from the bar scene or other similarly minded expats / foreigners - after living here for a while and finding my own feet I soon learned how dated, incorrect and paranoid many of these opinions were.

My experience here has shown that I will be treated very much in the same way as I Thai would.

Of course, we all hear stories where an attempt would be made to 'blame' the foreigner, however, in much the same way a Thai perceived as being wealthier would be initially proportioned blame / costs.

'The Path of Least Resistance' is the way things are normally worked out. Because this is different from our own countries doesn't mean 'they' are against the foreigner... its just people being lazy and taking the easiest route to solve a situation.

When in a situation if a foreigner politely sticks to their guns they will be treated fairly and more often than not favourably.

------

More on topic:

In the case of a fatality (motorcycle on car) regardless of guilt it may be considered more 'caring' if a donation (not an admission of guilt) is made to the family of the deceased towards the funeral costs. This is what happens here.

This is one of those terrible tragic situations not well covered by Law or Insurance whereby in the West we'd have better driver / rider education, better and safer road design, more comprehensive insurance coverage. In the event of a serious accident a long drawn out unbiased process proportioning blame and charges (if necessary).

Here in Thailand the family of the poor deceased, RIP, and unfortunate Foreigner must sort things out a little differently but in a manner which has been the norm here for years.

You have points to be considered.

Meantime.....when it happens to you....then you may be singing a different song ...while being held in jail and or threatened with long prison sentences.

How about you see it that way also.....and no hard feelings.

And I have been here for 25 years...not fresh off the airplane like you are implying

Cheers

I have been involved in accidents and been dealt with equally and fairly.... That said - these accidents were not serious (no injuries).

I have a dashcam to protect myself from taking the blame (when blameless) when consequences are more serious... As you said Gemguy - I may well be singing a different song if I am involved in a more serious collision - you may be right, If I believed you or felt that I could be treated unequally or unfairly when involved in an unavoidable accident I wouldn't be here...

I'm aware damages to me may be very little, I'm also aware there is possibility some damaged parties may attempt to get some extra money from me.

I just don't subscribe to the theory that the 'foreigner is always at fault' - that has not been my experience here, neither has it been the experience of many friends who've been driving for numerous years.

Advice to anyone who may encounter such situations: Get a dash-cam, if involved in an accident be polite, don't accept blame, get a trusted and respectable Thai to assist if you need translation, have ready access to bail money.

Under Thai law when a death is involved the driver will always be arrested... thats just the way it is. There is no way of avoiding that.

Fair enough...but I never said that all foreigners are extorted rather I did point out it happens: All too often... as in, not all the time.... as in, many cases occur.... as in, more than should be....as in, it is not uncommon...as in....too many Thais will at least try manipulate the situation and or that is what is near immediately on their minds ...sooner or later.

Cheers

[gemguy]

This thread seems to be more about opinions than facts.

The police do not always assume a foreigner is at fault, sometimes a foreigner may be treated unfairly but that can happen to Thai's also.

The fact is, many foreigners are treated fairly....while the fact is..... many foreigners are treated unfairly.

Let us talk about the facts involving all too many foreigners that are treated unfairly while money is extorted out of them.

That is far more news worthy and of concern to all of us...while the ones treated fairly should not be used as significant examples of what is considered routine courtesies and considerations afforded to anyone as a matter of social decorum...while here in Thailand it seems it could go either way......all seemingly depending on the Thais and usually is that way...not the foreigner...because, you, as a foreigner are always vulnerable and at a disadvantage.

Spoken out of experience...not just my opinion ...while like I said before....When it is happening to you personally then you will have a different point of view...while very few people will rush to help you while most people ( as in nearly everyone ) will drop you like a hot potato and do not want to get involved with YOUR problem...no matter how innocent you are and or no fault of your own.

Cheers

[bonobo]

I have been in two accidents in Thailand. Neither were my fault. In the first, a motorcyclist (driving without lights) tried to pass me on the right while I was turning into a parking lot, blinkers on. He evidently thought he could get past me before I turned. The cop said it was his fault, but when they found out that he was unlicensed and had not insurance, the tune changed to it being my fault. I took pictures to prove my point, but my insurance company just said the amount was so small (a couple thousand baht for his broken ankle) that is was not worth it to fight.

The second time was when I stopped at a police check point on Ratchapruek Road one Saturday afternoon. The pick-up in back of me stopped, and I looked forward to the cop to see what he wanted. He was looking behind me, and I found out why when a truck slammed into the pick-up sending it into me. The poor pick-up was one of those moving clothes stores, and clothes had gone flying and were run over by other vehicles. In this case, I was found to be faultless, and the truck driver's insurance had to pay for all three vehicles.

[richard_smith237]

gemguy - you have been ill-informed....

Many foreigners, myself included, have been involved in accidents here.

My experience is not that the foreigner is automatically at fault. I consider such comments 'bar-stool-paranoia'.... This is the sort of information I received at 22 years old when I first arrived here listening to those wiley expats who never ventured far from the bar scene or other similarly minded expats / foreigners - after living here for a while and finding my own feet I soon learned how dated, incorrect and paranoid many of these opinions were.

My experience here has shown that I will be treated very much in the same way as I Thai would.

Of course, we all hear stories where an attempt would be made to 'blame' the foreigner, however, in much the same way a Thai perceived as being wealthier would be initially proportioned blame / costs.

'The Path of Least Resistance' is the way things are normally worked out. Because this is different from our own countries doesn't mean 'they' are against the foreigner... its just people being lazy and taking the easiest route to solve a situation.

When in a situation if a foreigner politely sticks to their guns they will be treated fairly and more often than not favourably.

------

More on topic:

In the case of a fatality (motorcycle on car) regardless of guilt it may be considered more 'caring' if a donation (not an admission of guilt) is made to the family of the deceased towards the funeral costs. This is what happens here.

This is one of those terrible tragic situations not well covered by Law or Insurance whereby in the West we'd have better driver / rider education, better and safer road design, more comprehensive insurance coverage. In the event of a serious accident a long drawn out unbiased process proportioning blame and charges (if necessary).

Here in Thailand the family of the poor deceased, RIP, and unfortunate Foreigner must sort things out a little differently but in a manner which has been the norm here for years.

You have points to be considered.

Meantime.....when it happens to you....then you may be singing a different song ...while being held in jail and or threatened with long prison sentences.

How about you see it that way also.....and no hard feelings.

And I have been here for 25 years...not fresh off the airplane like you are implying

Cheers

I have been involved in accidents and been dealt with equally and fairly.... That said - these accidents were not serious (no injuries).

I have a dashcam to protect myself from taking the blame (when blameless) when consequences are more serious... As you said Gemguy - I may well be singing a different song if I am involved in a more serious collision - you may be right, If I believed you or felt that I could be treated unequally or unfairly when involved in an unavoidable accident I wouldn't be here...

I'm aware damages to me may be very little, I'm also aware there is possibility some damaged parties may attempt to get some extra money from me.

I just don't subscribe to the theory that the 'foreigner is always at fault' - that has not been my experience here, neither has it been the experience of many friends who've been driving for numerous years.

Advice to anyone who may encounter such situations: Get a dash-cam, if involved in an accident be polite, don't accept blame, get a trusted and respectable Thai to assist if you need translation, have ready access to bail money.

Under Thai law when a death is involved the driver will always be arrested... thats just the way it is. There is no way of avoiding that.

Fair enough...but I never said that all foreigners are extorted rather I did point out it happens: All too often... as in, not all the time.... as in, many cases occur.... as in, more than should be....as in, it is not uncommon...as in....too many Thais will at least try manipulate the situation and or that is what is near immediately on their minds ...sooner or later.

Cheers

Yup - I think our opinions are close enough on this one... and where our opinions differ it's just down to our exposure... every situation is different.

Your comment "too many Thais will at least try manipulate the situation and or that is what is near immediately on their minds ...sooner or later" I agree with....

I would also add... until such time the resistance is significant enough not to make it worth their while....

[Sealbash]

A few years ago I had a similar experience, with the exception the Thai motor-bike rider did not die. He did brake both legs.

After going for my insurance company for untold compensation, which he did not get, the end of the story is I got 2 years jail. My lawyer got the sentence suspended for 2 years.

The motor-bike rider pulled straight out in front of me, but in court, being a foreigner, I was slaughtered. My legal costs were not small. My eventual fine was minute. I had my passport confiscated, which meant I was unable to leave Thailand.

I had the floor wiped up with me. Why ? Because I was a foreigner. Was on a hiding for nothing from the moment of impact. The police dealt with the matter in a very 2-faced way.

As a regular car driver here, this worries me a lot. I have always believed stuff like this to be one of the many myths about living in Thailand. 2 years in jail, even if suspended, and confiscating a passport seems excessive for breaking someone's legs. Were your lawyers in on it?

Maybe not on this thread, but I'd like to read a more detailed account of your unfortunate experience. Did you post it here?

Amongst several other reasons....the possible accident reason is the one main reason I have never even given thought about owning and or driving a Motor Vehicle here in Thailand.

Basically ( IF ) you do have an accident with a Thai person you are going to be held accountable regardless of the circumstances and or who did what and or what actually happened and who is at fault.

If the Thai person does not have insurance then who will be paying??

If the Thai person did have insurance then the Thai drivers insurance company will be thinking the foreigners insurance company should pay....even if the Thai driver was at fault ..and no doubt about it and obvious to everyone...the foreigner should pay.

If the foreigner has Thai company motor vehicle insurance then there is a good chance his insurance company will not cover him and think the same as everyone else....the foreigner should pay.

I would go so far as to say that if you were simply the passenger in a motor vehicle accident there is a very real chance they would try to hold you accountable in some manner.....and or try to make you part with your money...because you were there...that is why.

Do you (like Pattaya28) have personal experience of this or are you relating the commonly expressed view that the farang is alway to blame, irrespective of fault?

How can you dispute what was said in all sincerity in a bar, or posted on TVF?