Thailand deliberates new constitution to end turmoil

[webfact]

Thailand deliberates new constitution to end turmoil
AFP

BANGKOK: -- Deliberations began Monday on a new Thai constitution, which includes clauses to stop parties winning a majority and allows unelected officials to govern, in a bid by the Thai junta to end a near-decade of political turmoil.

However, the charter is widely seen as an assault on the electoral success of the former ruling Shinawatra clan.

Parties led-by or aligned-to Thaksin Shinawatra's billionaire family have won every election since 2001, prompting two coups backed by the royalist establishment and nearly a decade of acrimony that has frequently spilled into violence.

On Monday the junta-appointed National Reform Council (NRC) began a week of discussion on the draft charter, a process which could see the document receive royal endorsement by September.

Thailand's constitution has undergone more than a dozen re-writes since the end of absolute monarchy in 1932.

The leaders of last May's coup say another new charter is needed to soothe Thailand's caustic divides ahead of fresh elections slated for next year.

On Monday, Borwornsak Uwanno, chairman of the Constitution Drafting Committee (CDC), said the new charter "will not allow a majority government which can become a parliamentary dictatorship."

Speaking in the televised debate he denied it was "a blueprint" to end the domination of the Shinawatras, but would instead empower the Thai people at the expense of politicians.

Under the draft, future elections will be decided by a proportional representation system similar to Germany's that will favour smaller parties and coalition governments.

But to avoid legislative paralysis under coalitions, prime ministers will not have to be directly elected by the public.

Lawmakers will also be barred from becoming ministers "so that they can not use that power to unduly influence the government," Borwornsak added, raising the prospect of unelected officials running the government.

Analysts have said the draft is not truly democratic and harks back to an era when a royalist and military elite had a stranglehold on politics.

That grip has been threatened by the rise of the Shinawatras, who draw on the support of the northern portion of the country, which is poorer than the south and historically receives a smaller share of state cash from Bangkok.

Their supporters say the family recognised their changing political and economic aspirations with subsidies for farmers and other pro-poor policies such as virtually free healthcare and micro loans.

But their enemies, principally among the Bangkok elite, military and royalist southerners, have justified army power grabs by saying the family has poisoned Thailand with populist policies, cronyism and lead the poor astray.

The elite's main party, the Democrats, have failed to win a popular vote in nearly 20 years.

The NRC -- which is made of experts, academics and some former politicians -- has 30 days to recommend major amendments to the draft.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2015-04-20

[JoePai]

a new Thai constitution, which includes clauses to stop parties winning a majority and allows unelected officials to govern

Mmmm that should be a winner

[NongKhaiKid]

Are ' deliberations ' anything like a foregone conclusion ?

[Scully]

"Analysts have said the draft is not truly democratic and harks back to an era when a royalist and military elite had a stranglehold on politics".

Don't often see things like this printed, when the inevitable happens all the ducks should be in line.

[Snig27]

Thailand needed its own King Canute and here here is - and a general no less - trying to turn back the inevitable tide of democracy.

This document is a script for disaster sadly.

[JAG]

It will be promulgated.

It will be used to deny the electorate their government of choice.

it will eventually end in tears.

[jerojero]

Stops majority rule. Fits perfectly along side legal coup and Art44

[smutcakes]

Section 280 looks like it will cause some fun. My understanding is that it empowers the unelected National Reform Assembly to propose new legislation, which the Senate (unelected, but no doubt good people) can themselves alone approve.

This will end well.

[webfact]

Alongkorn: CDC must show courage to demand a referendum for the draft charter



BANGKOK: -- The Constitution Drafting Committee must show its courage and independence by making sure that the draft constitution must go through a referendum, said Mr Alongkorn Polabutr, secretary of the National Reform Council’s whips.

Taking the floor to debate on the draft charter for the first day today, Alongkorn said that the country could not advance toward the future in a stable and sustainable fashion unless the CDC has the courage to do the right thing, to bring the draft charter to the people and into their embrace.

“This will be an important turning point of the future because every word (in the draft) is about the future of the country and the people,”said Alongkorn.

He noted that the draft charter must be able to address the following five core problems: disunity, corruption, disparity, backwardness and the regression the country’s competency.

Mr Kuruchit Nakhonthap, vice chairman of the energy reform panel, raised concern about the setting up of people’s council in all provinces to check the performance of state agencies. He asked whether these councils would duplicate the work of the National Anti-Corruption Commission and National Audit Council.

He questioned the competency of these people’s councils and whether they are worth the budgetary spending.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/alongkorn-cdc-must-show-courage-to-demand-a-referendum-for-the-draft-charter


-- Thai PBS 2015-04-20

[retell]

Bad idea , let the general run in the election and get his pm ship by that

[catterwell]

Section 280 looks like it will cause some fun. My understanding is that it empowers the unelected National Reform Assembly to propose new legislation, which the Senate (unelected, but no doubt good people) can themselves alone approve.

This will end well.

Yes the NRA and/or NRSC can propose Bills, but only directly related to "reform or reconciliation". The Senate can bulldoze such Bills with a 2/3 majority. Section 280 expires within 5 years.

The 200-member Senate includes 77 directly elected representatives from each province (albeit with each of the maximum 10 candidates per province/constituency having been pre-screened), 58 representatives (also screened) from diverse sectors, 30 Agriculture/Labour/Academic/Community/Local organisation representatives selected by themselves (no screening); 15 representatives from existing registered associations (again self voted, no screening), plus 20 former Permanent Secretaries or equivalent.

To state the the Senate is unelected is not quite accurate; but to state that is is wholly elected would also be inaccurate.

[candide]

Section 280 looks like it will cause some fun. My understanding is that it empowers the unelected National Reform Assembly to propose new legislation, which the Senate (unelected, but no doubt good people) can themselves alone approve.

This will end well.

Yes the NRA and/or NRSC can propose Bills, but only directly related to "reform or reconciliation". The Senate can bulldoze such Bills with a 2/3 majority. Section 280 expires within 5 years.

The 200-member Senate includes 77 directly elected representatives from each province (albeit with each of the maximum 10 candidates per province/constituency having been pre-screened), 58 representatives (also screened) from diverse sectors, 30 Agriculture/Labour/Academic/Community/Local organisation representatives selected by themselves (no screening); 15 representatives from existing registered associations (again self voted, no screening), plus 20 former Permanent Secretaries or equivalent.

To state the the Senate is unelected is not quite accurate; but to state that is is wholly elected would also be inaccurate.

It's just the small detail that you modestly put in brackets and modestly call "screened" that is important. The 77 indirectly (not directly) elected by local representatives will be selected before. So basically, not anyone can candidate, the 77 will be elected from a list of 200 people appointed by a panel. So if you can choose only between handpicked people, this is not a real election. It's more like the PDRC way...

They found a system to make it look like indirect election, but only from a pool of appointed people.

So fully appointed is the accurate way to call this senate.

[candide]

Section 280 looks like it will cause some fun. My understanding is that it empowers the unelected National Reform Assembly to propose new legislation, which the Senate (unelected, but no doubt good people) can themselves alone approve.

This will end well.

Yes the NRA and/or NRSC can propose Bills, but only directly related to "reform or reconciliation". The Senate can bulldoze such Bills with a 2/3 majority. Section 280 expires within 5 years.

The 200-member Senate includes 77 directly elected representatives from each province (albeit with each of the maximum 10 candidates per province/constituency having been pre-screened), 58 representatives (also screened) from diverse sectors, 30 Agriculture/Labour/Academic/Community/Local organisation representatives selected by themselves (no screening); 15 representatives from existing registered associations (again self voted, no screening), plus 20 former Permanent Secretaries or equivalent.

To state the the Senate is unelected is not quite accurate; but to state that is is wholly elected would also be inaccurate.

It's just the small detail that you modestly put in brackets and modestly call "screened" that is important. The 77 indirectly (not directly) elected by local representatives will be selected before. So basically, not anyone can candidate, the 77 will be elected from a list of 200 people appointed by a panel. So if you can choose only between handpicked people, this is not a real election. It's more like the PDRC way...

They found a system to make it look like indirect election, but only from a pool of appointed people.

So fully appointed is the accurate way to call this senate.

Oooops! Just read the charter translation, the 77 senatords are effectively directly elected, but still from a pool of selected candidates

[smedly]

Thailand deliberates new constitution to end turmoil

..what turmoil - you have 90% of Thai people on one side and a small group of Thaksin funded terrorists and political activists on the other

Did anyone watch the sickening choir (well they were moving their lips) of the scum terrorist red leaders singing on the so called "peace TV channel" it almost made me violently ill, I had visions of grenades being thrown and childrens body parts strewn all over the their blood stained faces - truly sickening

[BSJ]

"BANGKOK: -- The Constitution Drafting Committee must show its courage and independence by making sure that the draft constitution must go through a referendum, said Mr Alongkorn Polabutr, secretary of the National Reform Council’s whips." Holding a referendum is the right thing to do without question.

[Laughing Gravy]

Thailand deliberates new constitution to end turmoil

..what turmoil - you have 90% of Thai people on one side and a small group of Thaksin funded terrorists and political activists on the other

Did anyone watch the sickening choir (well they were moving their lips) of the scum terrorist red leaders singing on the so called "peace TV channel" it almost made me violently ill, I had visions of grenades being thrown and childrens body parts strewn all over the their blood stained faces - truly sickening

90% of Thai people on one side.

That's the funniest thing I have heard this week. even funnier than the Dusit polls.

What an scaremonger you are

[soalbundy]

This is the constitution and if you don't like it, well we have others.

[jayboy]

Section 280 looks like it will cause some fun. My understanding is that it empowers the unelected National Reform Assembly to propose new legislation, which the Senate (unelected, but no doubt good people) can themselves alone approve.

This will end well.

Yes the NRA and/or NRSC can propose Bills, but only directly related to "reform or reconciliation". The Senate can bulldoze such Bills with a 2/3 majority. Section 280 expires within 5 years.

The 200-member Senate includes 77 directly elected representatives from each province (albeit with each of the maximum 10 candidates per province/constituency having been pre-screened), 58 representatives (also screened) from diverse sectors, 30 Agriculture/Labour/Academic/Community/Local organisation representatives selected by themselves (no screening); 15 representatives from existing registered associations (again self voted, no screening), plus 20 former Permanent Secretaries or equivalent.

To state the the Senate is unelected is not quite accurate; but to state that is is wholly elected would also be inaccurate.

It seems someone with the necessary level of energy, and (equally important) high boredom threshold has actually taken the time to read, mark, learn and inwardly digest the draft document.Perhaps he might even have a conclusion in due course though from a recent article in Big Chilli I fear it will be tinged with the colour of gold, butter and ripe lemons.

In the meantime Bloomberg has a sensible editorial on the whole sorry business

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-04-20/thailand-needs-elected-leaders-not-a-new-constitution

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

The creation of two types of citizens as per today's Bangkok post opinion piece by Atiya are a reflection of what a certain beer heir said should happen back in November 2013. According to these elites people that have certain skills/knowledge/contacts/surnames/education etc etc will be considered citizens with full rights the other people in Thailand are just people that make up the numbers, with no rights and no say in how the country must be governed. As the heir put it on her facebook page is that the uneducated buffalo's (majority) aren't capable of choosing their own government thus the "educated" (minorty) must decide who their government must be. Does this not sound like apartheid South Africa back in the 1970's?

[soalbundy]

As Winston Churchill once said ''The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter''

[Squeegee]

A referendum so the people can choose if they will lose the right to choose?

Dreamers.

Anyway, none of this will matter once the Big Event happens. Nothing will then hold the country together. Tanks and guns never did.

[Squeegee]

The creation of two types of citizens as per today's Bangkok post opinion piece by Atiya are a reflection of what a certain beer heir said should happen back in November 2013. According to these elites people that have certain skills/knowledge/contacts/surnames/education etc etc will be considered citizens with full rights the other people in Thailand are just people that make up the numbers, with no rights and no say in how the country must be governed. As the heir put it on her facebook page is that the uneducated buffalo's (majority) aren't capable of choosing their own government thus the "educated" (minorty) must decide who their government must be. Does this not sound like apartheid South Africa back in the 1970's?

Also it shows how clever she - and her kind - really is: such a state never resulted in a strong country. If they want to be a success (or semblance of it) they either do democracy or dictatorship and no inbetweens.

[catterwell]

Section 280 looks like it will cause some fun. My understanding is that it empowers the unelected National Reform Assembly to propose new legislation, which the Senate (unelected, but no doubt good people) can themselves alone approve.

This will end well.

Yes the NRA and/or NRSC can propose Bills, but only directly related to "reform or reconciliation". The Senate can bulldoze such Bills with a 2/3 majority. Section 280 expires within 5 years.

The 200-member Senate includes 77 directly elected representatives from each province (albeit with each of the maximum 10 candidates per province/constituency having been pre-screened), 58 representatives (also screened) from diverse sectors, 30 Agriculture/Labour/Academic/Community/Local organisation representatives selected by themselves (no screening); 15 representatives from existing registered associations (again self voted, no screening), plus 20 former Permanent Secretaries or equivalent.

To state the the Senate is unelected is not quite accurate; but to state that is is wholly elected would also be inaccurate.

It seems someone with the necessary level of energy, and (equally important) high boredom threshold has actually taken the time to read, mark, learn and inwardly digest the draft document.Perhaps he might even have a conclusion in due course though from a recent article in Big Chilli I fear it will be tinged with the colour of gold, butter and ripe lemons.

In the meantime Bloomberg has a sensible editorial on the whole sorry business

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-04-20/thailand-needs-elected-leaders-not-a-new-constitution

Thanks you for your compliments on my energy level and patience (aka boredom threshold). Yes I did read and absorb the entire draft constitution, as I have done with the last dozen or so. And yes, reading these things does take patience.

A conclusion? A structured arrangement of elected, self-selected, and appointed senators. (I will make comment on the merits and demerits of the structure at a presentation this Friday).

The BigChili photographer turned up a day earlier than I had expected. I had planned to get cleaned up, dressed up and shaved before his arrival but, as events turned out I didn't have time. Sorry if you disapprove of the colour (which could be described as"yellow") of the shirt I happened to be wearing on the day.

[Srikcir]

Section 280 looks like it will cause some fun. My understanding is that it empowers the unelected National Reform Assembly to propose new legislation, which the Senate (unelected, but no doubt good people) can themselves alone approve.

This will end well.

Yes the NRA and/or NRSC can propose Bills, but only directly related to "reform or reconciliation". The Senate can bulldoze such Bills with a 2/3 majority. Section 280 expires within 5 years.

The 200-member Senate includes 77 directly elected representatives from each province (albeit with each of the maximum 10 candidates per province/constituency having been pre-screened), 58 representatives (also screened) from diverse sectors, 30 Agriculture/Labour/Academic/Community/Local organisation representatives selected by themselves (no screening); 15 representatives from existing registered associations (again self voted, no screening), plus 20 former Permanent Secretaries or equivalent.

To state the the Senate is unelected is not quite accurate; but to state that is is wholly elected would also be inaccurate.

It seems someone with the necessary level of energy, and (equally important) high boredom threshold has actually taken the time to read, mark, learn and inwardly digest the draft document.Perhaps he might even have a conclusion in due course though from a recent article in Big Chilli I fear it will be tinged with the colour of gold, butter and ripe lemons.

In the meantime Bloomberg has a sensible editorial on the whole sorry business

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-04-20/thailand-needs-elected-leaders-not-a-new-constitution

Bllomberg: "Any constitution that tries to get around basic democracy will only ensure that another one needs to be written in a few years." So true for Thailand.

[meltingpot2015]

Happen to see that Thailand is a constitutional Monarchy. Within this type, there are two kinds of monarchies. It's an Executive Monarchy. Here's the list: (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy)

Executive monarchies: Bhutan, Bahrain, Cambodia, Jordan, Kuwait, Liechtenstein, Malaysia, Monaco, Morocco, Tonga, Thailand, Swaziland and the United Arab Emirates.

Ceremonial monarchies: Andorra, Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, The Bahamas, Barbados, Belgium, Belize, Canada, Denmark, Grenada, Jamaica, Japan, Lesotho, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Papua New Guinea, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Solomon Islands, Spain, Sweden, Tuvalu and the United Kingdom.

[docshock13]

Section 280 looks like it will cause some fun. My understanding is that it empowers the unelected National Reform Assembly to propose new legislation, which the Senate (unelected, but no doubt good people) can themselves alone approve.

This will end well.

Yes the NRA and/or NRSC can propose Bills, but only directly related to "reform or reconciliation". The Senate can bulldoze such Bills with a 2/3 majority. Section 280 expires within 5 years.

The 200-member Senate includes 77 directly elected representatives from each province (albeit with each of the maximum 10 candidates per province/constituency having been pre-screened), 58 representatives (also screened) from diverse sectors, 30 Agriculture/Labour/Academic/Community/Local organisation representatives selected by themselves (no screening); 15 representatives from existing registered associations (again self voted, no screening), plus 20 former Permanent Secretaries or equivalent.

To state the the Senate is unelected is not quite accurate; but to state that is is wholly elected would also be inaccurate.

It seems someone with the necessary level of energy, and (equally important) high boredom threshold has actually taken the time to read, mark, learn and inwardly digest the draft document.Perhaps he might even have a conclusion in due course though from a recent article in Big Chilli I fear it will be tinged with the colour of gold, butter and ripe lemons.

In the meantime Bloomberg has a sensible editorial on the whole sorry business

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-04-20/thailand-needs-elected-leaders-not-a-new-constitution

Good reading. Thx for link.

[IMA_FARANG]

a new Thai constitution, which includes clauses to stop parties winning a majority and allows unelected officials to govern

Mmmm that should be a winner

=================

Political parties in Thailand have become like a group of Mafia gangsters whose only real interest is to perpetuate there own criminal gang's power to steal from the people under the guise of "democracy" and to increase their own "political party's" power.

"Politics" in Thailand has long ago become an organized criminal group corruption activity.

Any constitution that limits the power of this organized criminal group's corruption activity is to be applauded and supported.

The prize of true democratic government is only for those who honestly earn it, and the Thai political system today is to corrupt and self-serving to earn or deserve the prize of true Democracy.

Edited April 25, 2015 by IMA_FARANG

[Thai at Heart]

A useless half way house of a constitution. Deliberately created to prevent a majority. Anyone reckon this will last 5 years? Me neither.

[smutcakes]

a new Thai constitution, which includes clauses to stop parties winning a majority and allows unelected officials to govern

Mmmm that should be a winner

=================

Political parties in Thailand have become like a group of Mafia gangsters whose only real interest is to perpetuate there own criminal gang's power to steal from the people under the guise of "democracy" and to increase their own "political party's" power.

"Politics" in Thailand has long ago become an organized criminal group corruption activity.

Any constitution that limits the power of this organized criminal group's corruption activity is to be applauded and supported.

The prize of true democratic government is only for those who honestly earn it, and the Thai political system today is to corrupt and self-serving to earn or deserve the prize of true Democracy.

Not just political parties, but nearly all civil servant areas. They are all big groups of people whose families have worked in the same area for generations and positions, titles etc are just handed down the line indefinitely. It is one reason why it is so difficult for Governments to deal with the corruption issues, as the civil service is like one huge mafia union. It is nigh on impossible for normal Govts to tackle the issues, and it is proving difficult enough for the Junta even with their extended powers.

Limiting power to political parties would be okay, but putting the power into other bureaucratic corrupt mafia style areas does not seem to be much of an improvement.