Maize and Rotational Crops

[kickstart]

Hi FJ

          I know what you mean about Thais burning everything in sight, not the first drove down a road, seen smoke crossing the road, road verges well alight, the guy responsible leaning on a rake fag on, not at all bothered, this is Thailand.

Your project bringing the corn planter down to 10-12 inch spacings sounds interesting, is it for corn, or other crops ie sun hemp, if it is for corn would have thought  12 inch close? plants will get tall and legie completing for light,, strong wind/rain, plants will go down, reduced size of the cob.

A guy near here grows soya bean,he has a drill  a 4 row must be about 12-inch rows, also have seen one used for growing peanuts.

We have a lot of cucumbers grown around here ,the amount of stuff that is sprayed on them, enough to put you of cucumbers for life, no asparagus,as far as I know, is grown around here .if they was it would have to go down to Bangkok to be sold, not much of a market around here.  

[farmerjo]

On 23/3/2561 at 9:40 PM, kickstart said:

Hi FJ

          I know what you mean about Thais burning everything in sight, not the first drove down a road, seen smoke crossing the road, road verges well alight, the guy responsible leaning on a rake fag on, not at all bothered, this is Thailand.

Your project bringing the corn planter down to 10-12 inch spacings sounds interesting, is it for corn, or other crops ie sun hemp, if it is for corn would have thought  12 inch close? plants will get tall and legie completing for light,, strong wind/rain, plants will go down, reduced size of the cob.

A guy near here grows soya bean,he has a drill  a 4 row must be about 12-inch rows, also have seen one used for growing peanuts.

We have a lot of cucumbers grown around here ,the amount of stuff that is sprayed on them, enough to put you of cucumbers for life, no asparagus,as far as I know, is grown around here .if they was it would have to go down to Bangkok to be sold, not much of a market around here.  

Hi KS,

It's about having a universal planter,if i put the disc assemblies at 10 inch spacings it gives flexibility to plant at 10 inch,20 inch,30 inch,40 inch etc spacings depending on crop of choice.

I felt 30 inch was to far apart for sunn hemp seed so 20 might be ideal for seed and 10 inch spacing for cover crop or nitrogen replacement with better weed control.Maize could go to 20 inch and rice would be at 10 inch.

The guy supplying the extra assemblies(from down your way) delivered them this morning,we had some good discussions on how they fabricate and changes i would like made in the future from personal experience of no-till farming conditions with my soil types especially with regards to the closing system.(dirt over the seed after placed in the trench)

I'm sure it opened his eyes as he was adamant at the start you have to plough your land 1st before using seeder which to me defeats the purpose and adds quite a lot to the input costs.Anyway he's gone back to  tell the boss  to do some trials on the closers for me.I've got about 6 weeks before i will be using so have time to try a few things.

 

 

[wayned]

3 hours ago, farmerjo said:

Maize could go to 20 inch

Can you set your harvester to harvest rows at 20".   The JD harvesters are set to either 30" or 36" spacing and are different models and cannot be reconfigured due to the width of the gatherer assemblies.  We did modify 2 six row corn heads to 5 rows but the row spacing is still fixed to 30".  If you are just going to harvest it as silage then that would not matter.

[farmerjo]

You could just use what you call your sunflower front.

Only thing being you cut the stalk just below the cob leaving higher standing residue in the field as your limited with the reel height in a tall crop.

The Kubota modifications to the front from rice to maize is basically the longer guide fingers to stop spillage.

I would say as long as your rows are wider than 6 inch it would be fine. 

[kickstart]

On 25/3/2561 at 11:26 AM, farmerjo said:

Hi KS,

It's about having a universal planter,if i put the disc assemblies at 10 inch spacings it gives flexibility to plant at 10 inch,20 inch,30 inch,40 inch etc spacings depending on crop of choice.

I felt 30 inch was to far apart for sunn hemp seed so 20 might be ideal for seed and 10 inch spacing for cover crop or nitrogen replacement with better weed control.Maize could go to 20 inch and rice would be at 10 inch.

The guy supplying the extra assemblies(from down your way) delivered them this morning,we had some good discussions on how they fabricate and changes i would like made in the future from personal experience of no-till farming conditions with my soil types especially with regards to the closing system.(dirt over the seed after placed in the trench)

I'm sure it opened his eyes as he was adamant at the start you have to plough your land 1st before using seeder which to me defeats the purpose and adds quite a lot to the input costs.Anyway he's gone back to  tell the boss  to do some trials on the closers for me.I've got about 6 weeks before i will be using so have time to try a few things.

 

 

Hi FJ 

          I can see where you are going ,a quick look at Google, row spacing for sun hemp is 6-9.5 inches ,so you could well say 30 inch is a bit wide ,certainly get better weed control and probably  get higher yields .

I am not so surprised  your delivery guy was adarment that you had to plough before drilling ,but if he was  a local guy he would know that sunflowers now are direct drilled ,with better results than the old 7 disc plough  and seeder,

probably thinks you can not direct drill maize like you can sunflowers. 

They still have a few drills parked at the front of the  workshop ,all now have disc cullters on ,that could be used for direct drilling.

Not certain how thay are going to do the trials, plenty of land ploughed ,2 and 7 disc ,just  now waiting  for some rain .

I did think about narrow row spacing 's and combine headers ,but you answered the question .

Useing the drill to drill rice are you going to give Khow-Rie ,dry-land  rice a go ?,some one was trying to sell dry-land rice on our local market ,come down from Korat ,not many takers ,Thai's to conservative .

[CLW]

Upland rice maybe a coming trend here regarding weather extremes and drought. As long as you are not aiming to produce fragrant aka Jasmin rice, is there any difference between upland and lowland rice?

[farmerjo]

Hi Guys,

With regards to the rice i know very little about it.In the past the FIL has dallied in a bit of sticky and jasmine rice but i wouldn't want to copy his methods as he was on a win-win whether a good or bad crop.

I think lowland rice still requires paddy fields and a certain depth of water consistantly but i don't know to be sure. 

The system i will use will be all mechanical,seeding,spraying and harvesting.

 

My wife has gone to town today with a list of questions i gave her which included -

- What varieties are in the area for non level land

- What seeding rates per rai

- What fertilizers to use when and rates

- What chemicals to use before seeding and while growing

-What difference in days between short and long growing varieties and best time to plant

- Will my local rice millers buy these varieties at harvest time

 

Hoping to get some detailed answers but not holding my breath(depends if she takes the kids to Swenson's ice cream before or after)

Maybe others with knowledge can chip in and help.  

[kickstart]

Many years ago the wife's family tried  lowland rice,the misses said thay used a 7 disc plough  with a seeder attachment ,like thay do with sunflowers or mung beans and sowed the rice seed ,she said you could drill the seed ,so I would say a direct drill system would work ,and she said thay grow it like you would maize ,I said what about yields ,she said  if the rains are good the yields would have been good .a bit like maize. 

What bit I know of her family"s  farming enterprise it would have been a low input system ,growing a rie or two  mainly for the self's ,how it would pan out on a bigger area,I would not know.

The wife said a block of land near us was down to lowland rice last year ,I said it was not lowland rice ,just a rice crop short of water ,on poor land ,if she was right or I was, it was a poor crop ,full of grass weed ,(son in law cut some of the grass for his charcoal pit).

.So, that is my 2 satang worth on low land rice ,how about starting a  new thread on the topic ,I would say someone out there will know a bit about it.

[farmerjo]

Mrs came  home and got the response i was expecting,another phone number.

Our area only has lowland varieties but 30km's away heading towards Chulaporn dam they grow some upland rice as the altitude gets higher and a lot of mountainous non terraced country most of which is into rubber tree plantations these days.So will make a trip there at a later date.

The problem i see and as you suggested KS will be weed control.

Rice just trashed in with a 7 disc plough is destined for failure.

You can get away with crops like soya beans and sunflowers as they will bush out in growth.

If planted and grown similar to wheat or barley methods and enough rainfall it will work.

Planting around mid july on seems about right for my area which would mean i can get a sunn hemp crop in before if i plant before mid april.

Had 43mm of rain last week so a good start.

Might have to up the rates of glysophate slightly to take out these plants.

Majority is a star grass(i think).

 

   

[kickstart]

Hi FJ

           That is Star Grass,or trip-me- up- grass,when it gets going it has creeping stolons ,walk across the field and those stolons will lodge  in your feet,looking at that photo a dose of Round Up should do the job .

Will agree  a 7 disc plough not a good ider wrong in all details .

Rice is a cereal  crop, like as you said wheat and barley  are similar so management methods should work.

Can you buy a post emergence herbicide  for rice in Thailand ,again  I will agree grass weeds could/will be a problem ,looking at Google for  post emergence herbicides, found an American web sight ,what he was not spraying on his rice crop would be easier to say 2 different pre/post emergence herbicides,must be getting a good price for his rice (or it is subsidized) .

But I would say a crop of sun hemp before the rice ,would help weed control .

 

 

          

[IsaanAussie]

For what it is worth. Most around us in Sisaket will use roundup or equivalent to kill the weeds. Then broadcast HomMali seed by hand while walking in front of a tractor with a 4 disc plough which turns the seed in. Then pre-emergent and some post-emergent sprays. Critical is the timing of rain before seeding and afterwards.

[farmerjo]

Is that in paddy fields or undulating ground IA.

I'm in the process of modifying my corn planter from 4 x 30" rows to 10x10" rows to use for sunn hemp and rice.

Building a pvc prototype airseeder to trial instead of individual plate seeder boxes.

I don't have a fan yet so the electric blower is my starting point.

 

[kickstart]

5 hours ago, farmerjo said:

Is that in paddy fields or undulating ground IA.

I'm in the process of modifying my corn planter from 4 x 30" rows to 10x10" rows to use for sunn hemp and rice.

Building a pvc prototype airseeder to trial instead of individual plate seeder boxes.

I don't have a fan yet so the electric blower is my starting point.

 

Interesting idea going for an air seeder, would that fan  be too small, and one off, say an old Kubota combine, to big?

CLW

        You are in BKK  and know the Kast-Sart, must be 10yearsago? they made an air seeder, an experiment, a   2 row I think, I found a photo of it , here on TV or somewhere else, cannot remember .looked a bit rough but the idea was they.I wonder is it still about ?. 

[CLW]

Interesting idea going for an air seeder, would that fan  be too small, and one off, say an old Kubota combine, to big?
CLW
        You are in BKK  and know the Kast-Sart, must be 10yearsago? they made an air seeder, an experiment, a   2 row I think, I found a photo of it , here on TV or somewhere else, cannot remember .looked a bit rough but the idea was they.I wonder is it still about ?. 

I haven't look actively for that seeder but I can ask around.

[IsaanAussie]

18 hours ago, farmerjo said:

Is that in paddy fields or undulating ground IA.

I'm in the process of modifying my corn planter from 4 x 30" rows to 10x10" rows to use for sunn hemp and rice.

Building a pvc prototype airseeder to trial instead of individual plate seeder boxes.

I don't have a fan yet so the electric blower is my starting point.

 

Mostly paddies. Have seen rice planted on undulating land the same way but didnt see the results. Water being the issue obviously. With rice prices so low I doubt pumping water would help the cost basis. 

Your planter looks interesting though, transplanting doesnt appeal to me as the machines seem a bit delicate for the normal Thai operator. Of course the seed beds and trays are all additional. Direct seeding could well be the answer for my area where labour is scarce. 

Will watch this with great interest, albeit for use in paddies. 

[CLW]

Is that in paddy fields or undulating ground IA.
I'm in the process of modifying my corn planter from 4 x 30" rows to 10x10" rows to use for sunn hemp and rice.
Building a pvc prototype airseeder to trial instead of individual plate seeder boxes.
I don't have a fan yet so the electric blower is my starting point.
 

Seeing your rice seeder prototype for row seeding one thing came to my mind.
It is called SRI. Altough they are using plantlets one key factor is a wider row and plant spacing to enable more tillers. Also important the wet and dry cycles in the paddy. Internet is full of information, just google SRI rice

[CLW]

Sorry double post

[IsaanAussie]

SRI has long been a dream for me. Planting seeds would reduce the labour of transplanting. My "vision" would be to be able to siphon water (pump if I must) in and out of a series of ponds located in the paddies to provide the water level changes. After all the water is really for weed control and rice can grow without the flooding. 

Sisaket is one rainfed rice crop per year, either flooded or bone dry. The ponds would advance the rice season, grow fish and provide irrigation for other crops. Has always seemed to make sense to me.  

[farmerjo]

17 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

SRI has long been a dream for me. Planting seeds would reduce the labour of transplanting. My "vision" would be to be able to siphon water (pump if I must) in and out of a series of ponds located in the paddies to provide the water level changes. After all the water is really for weed control and rice can grow without the flooding. 

Sisaket is one rainfed rice crop per year, either flooded or bone dry. The ponds would advance the rice season, grow fish and provide irrigation for other crops. Has always seemed to make sense to me.  

Hi IA,

Trying to achieve the same here.

In the picture where the cursor is my main rice field,15 rai (bunded walls)

To the left near house and shed in dark colour is a creek that i have dammed off in two places and runs for normally about 5 months a year.

To the right in light green is a 60x55x6 metre dam.

By next year the idea is to have the field all perfectly level in one piece.There is 8" pipes in the bunds to release the water to dam or creek.

I still have to place a pipeline from creek to dam so when creek flows it fills dam and vice a versa when dam full it goes back to creek.It will be seeded with my seed drill.

On the left of the creek is my gently undulating field which is currently rain fed. 

 

 

 

[IsaanAussie]

FJ,

My main paddy totals 12 rai and the current pond about 40x20x4. Similar but a smaller scale to yours. So now you have peaked my interest.

IA

[kickstart]

This believe it or not is my next door neighbor I was walking up our land today and he was sowing his rice crop by hand, this piece of land is only 3-4 rie ,no bunds on our side, and  it sits low 

A few weeks ago he pumped some water on to this land, and then over the next 3 days we had 32 mm of rain, it looked like a proper rice field ,then is all dry out .but this land is like ours .black and will hold some water.

You could say he is almost organic, never uses any sprays, and I have said to the wife not seen him apply any fertilizer, he has a few beef cows that walk all over his land ,and applies some cattle manure from the cattle shed on to the fields, but not enough.

Normally he plants his rice in to a nursery bed then transplants it out in to the fields, might well do this on some other rice fields.

This guy is 60 plus, the wife said most of the family have left, so no one to help him out, this is the first time he has done his rice crop this way  as FJ said just trashing it in like this is domed for failer, we shall see .

 

[JungleBiker]

Somebody once mentioned the KID seed drills they had seen at an ag show. Can be used for maize, rice, etc, by changing the seed plates having different sized holes.

If anyone is interested, here is their website (it's difficult to find by googling KID seed drill):

http://www.machineautopart.com 

Based in Phraphuttabhat, Saraburi.

There's a Pakistani guy (Sahafaqat) working for them who can communicate well in English via email, Line and phone. The email he uses is <somkid_1964 [at] hotmail.com>

I only know about them because a company near here (in Laos) is using one for sowing rice and I am considering buying one or 2 of their drills. I don't yet have any firsthand experience of their products so I am not endorsing them. I'm just sharing contact info for others to investigate for themselves. 

 

 

[kickstart]

Their factory is not far from me, I have seen a few working, with the discs culters they are good at cutting through  trash in the fields.

Look well built, but with 2-3 other builders of drills in the area, (Famerjo's drill was made only 40 km up the road ), there is competition, they have been going for a few years now. ,

But, all drills are basically the same design, so the main thing will be cost if they are cost effective they will be popular, and most importantly, will you get a free sweatshirt/ t-shirt, with you drill. 

[farmerjo]

Agricultural implements in Thailand have come a long way in the last 5 years with tractors now being the main stay of the work in the fields.

It's nice to see some competition out there now.

Now the next step is who is going to come up with spiked closing wheels for their seeders for us who direct drill.

All the seed closing systems i've seen on drills in Thailand are for prepared seed beds or sandy loams with no trash(stubble).

And in our heavy clay they don't work.

A set of these would be nice if any body has seen them here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq8qHs9hcFo

[kickstart]

Hi FJ

          Something I have not seen before, and I have not seen them in Thailand, you could import a couple of sets, something like this could be sent by the post office, coming over by ship ,you just pay an additional  import tax etc  at the post office, no buggering about going down to the port for collection .

Or it would not be difficult to make a set, the John Deer system just looks like spikes on a wheel, the guy in the video says a rim and spikes can be attached to an existing wheel /disc culter.

Another set just looked like a large sprocket, would have thought a local engineering firm could make some, an engineering firm near here .has( or had ) , a laser-guided cutter if you could make the pattern they could soon cut one.or a good guy with a gas cutter could soon make a set.

On the videos, the Australian spring coil press wheel looked good, you would know more than me, but what I saw of Australia, many years ago they systems would suit Thailand's conditions better ?.

But the guy on the video said his system is for air seeders, a system for the near future. 

[farmerjo]

 

Been preparing rice fields but now have to duck off and do some work.

So FIL will get the small cowneo plot in while i'm away,rest can wait or he can do Thai style.

Still haven't finished my seeder,has been tested and proven just needs final installation of seed hoppers and chain drive assembly.

The rotovator i have is designed for ploughing field then flooding then come in and water puddle level with it.

As i wanted to direct drilling the seed i've just been trying to rotovate the top 2" but having a horrible time with blockages in the blades with the heavy clay areas that high density weeds.I might have to try a different angled blade if i can get them or remove some.

Or even just disconnect the pto shaft and run over so it turns at a slower speed,my crawler has downward pressure hydraulics to keep in the ground.Anybody tried this?

I mowed my back field about two weeks ago and has come back quickly,to quickly and will require another mow before spraying out for cropping later on.

 

 

 

[kickstart]

Hi FJ 

         Something  I have noticed a few times rotavator blades here in Thailand are a different design than the UK ones, the UK ones are more of a 90-degree angle bigger blades too.haveing what I can remember having left and right-handed blades. 

Around a lot of rotavators are the imported ones that come over on the back of second-hand tractors, the Kubota ones available in Thailand would be would be of Japanese design, more suited to work in rice paddies than the say UK ones which will be used to do dry land work.

Would disconnecting the pto do any good, would have thought the blades would turn to slowly to do any good ?, seems to me somehow getting rid of the grass weed would be a better option ,  if that grass weed carries growing it could choke the young rice plants.

 

[Ron19]

Maize farmers in Chiang Mai have expressed grave concern that their produce will have no buyers after they learned that about 120,000 tonnes of barley have been imported into the country as animal feed.

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1043900-maize-farmers-fear-effects-from-imported-barley/

 

[IsaanAussie]

A lot more to this story than just maize farmers missing out to imported cheaper ingredients. Thailand doesnt produce enough maize to satisfy demand and there is a requirement to buy 3 times to local maize to imported crops. Read the whole PBS article.

However CP is involved and the saving of 240 million baht. Globalisation, you got to love it. Issues like this are hopefully what is behind the current Trump Trade Wars. 

I say hopefully because I liked the rural farming communities in Isaan and would hate to see them disappear with their local towns to large land holdings and corporate farms.

[kickstart]

18 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

A lot more to this story than just maize farmers missing out to imported cheaper ingredients. Thailand doesnt produce enough maize to satisfy demand and there is a requirement to buy 3 times to local maize to imported crops. Read the whole PBS article.

However CP is involved and the saving of 240 million baht. Globalisation, you got to love it. Issues like this are hopefully what is behind the current Trump Trade Wars. 

I say hopefully because I liked the rural farming communities in Isaan and would hate to see them disappear with their local towns to large land holdings and corporate farms.

It is not only CP that buy in imported maize, I am in central Lopburi province  we have 2 big buyers of local maize, for the past 2 years they have been buying in maize from Cambodia, still on the cob ,how they do that with some import tax and haulage costs I do not know ,they thrash the corn out and send it up the road to our local Betagrow feed mill ,where they will join the  ques of trucks loaded with imported maize that has come up from the port in Bangkok .

As for corporate farms taking over in Issan cannot see it ,most of Issan only grow's  only one crop of rice a year ,and with fields being small some only 3-4 rie some less, corporate farming is large tracks of land worked with large equipment, making these fields viable will not be easy, and expensive equipment  spending as much time turning at headlands as working the field, not viable,

Issan normale only grows one crop a year corporate farming think only of the bottom line of a balance sheet, cannot see one crop a year making enough money for corporate farming.

And I would say the family owners of the land will want to keep a few rie back to grow some rice for they own use, it will give mum and dad something to do while the offspring are working in the big towns, so making logistics not easy for your corporate farm.

A few years ago ,might still be happening, a Saudi company ,was leasing land in Ayutthaya province  ,though a Thai agent to grow rice, landowners doing most of the work ,all the rice was sent to Saudi, landowners not having a lot of say ,some landowners said they are just managers of they own land, not owners now .

In a good year they could grow 3 crops a year, probably that is why they chose Ayutthaya if it was one crop a year do not think they would be interested