thaicurious Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 (edited) http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Homophobic-law-has-NO-BASIS-in-Buddhism-30257329.html Paisarn LikhitpreechakulSpecial to the Nation April 3, 2015 1:00 am Draft legislation to criminalise 'sexual deviant behaviours' in the Sangha is discriminatory and violates the Buddha's teaching The draft law to promote and protect Buddhism now being considered by the National Legislative Assembly proposes to criminalise monks who intentionally or negligently ordain those "with sexually deviant behaviours" (Article 40), as well as monks or novice monks "with sexually deviant behaviours who by any actions disgrace Buddhism" (Article 41).Although "sexually deviant behaviours" is legally ill-defined, it is a familiar term to Thai lay people and commonly refers to lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgenders. The fact that Article 41 fails to specify the "disgraceful" actions makes it clear that its target is not the actions, but the monks or novices who are or are perceived to be gay, bisexual or transgender. Because hetero-normative monks who commit these "disgraceful" actions would not be punished under this provision, the article must be dropped on grounds that it is discriminatory.... ...the discriminatory articles 40 and 41 of the draft bill targeting gays, bisexual men and transgenders cannot claim any basis in Buddhism. If any monk shall be punished at all, the offence must be precisely prescribed by the Vinaya - such as is the case with the celibacy rule - and the punishment must also be carried out strictly according to the Vinaya - regardless of the monk's sexual orientation or gender identity. PAISARN LIKHITPREECHAKUL is a Buddhist scholar with an MA in International Law and Human Rights from the UN-mandated University for Peace, Costa Rica. He has written for the Journal of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies, and is a board member of the Foundation for SOGI Rights and Justice. Edited April 24, 2015 by thaicurious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Good luck. Equality on these matters in most any religion is often an uphill fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaicurious Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 Good luck. Equality on these matters in most any religion is often an uphill fight. At issue, though, is not only that this, if enacted, is a downhill slide within religion but originating not within the religion (unless, perhaps, on behest of some homophobic monk), rather by the state. Thus, the author argues that: "...the whole idea of using laws to regulate the Sangha must be questioned. While alive, the Buddha never asked kings or states to interfere with the governance of the Sangha. If anything, he took measures, such as the rule not to ordain soldiers, to ensure non-interference by the state. To exert more state control over the Sangha with ill-conceived laws will only increase the Sangha's dependence on state power at the expense of its internal strength, to the detriment of Buddhism as a whole." Why it ought to be actively debated in Thai gay community is that this can lead to stigmatization and further oppression which can worsen and last for generations. Essentially it says gays are not worthy of full enlightenment, that to be an ordained monk, you'd first have to incarnate heterosexually which is not just nonsense spiritually but dangerous practically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Thanks for raising this issue here. It adds fuel to the theme of the thread about how tolerance of GLBT here is not quite at the paradisical levels that many perceive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isanbirder Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I thought monks were not supposed to have sex of any kind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fookhaht Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I thought monks were not supposed to have sex of any kind?Correct. Wink, wink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matej Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 (edited) Thanks for raising this issue here. It adds fuel to the theme of the thread about how tolerance of GLBT here is not quite at the paradisical levels that many perceive. With all the respect, but ... Someone always needs to highlight their personal opinion, that Thailand is not gay friendly ... How, can anyone possibly claim that? I don't understand at all. It's complete mystery for me. Maybe, we should all stop comparing our own hypothetical, ideal world with Thailand or with anything else and we will live happier lives. This rule literally applies to anything. Edited April 25, 2015 by Matej 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 (edited) Thanks for raising this issue here. It adds fuel to the theme of the thread about how tolerance of GLBT here is not quite at the paradisical levels that many perceive. With all the respect, but ... Someone always needs to highlight their personal opinion, that Thailand is not gay friendly ... How, can anyone possibly claim that? I don't understand at all. It's complete mystery for me. Maybe, we should all stop comparing our own hypothetical, ideal world with Thailand or with anything else and we will live happier lives. This rule literally applies to anything. I have only asserted that Thailand is not AS "gay friendly" to THAIS IN THAILAND as many people obviously believe based on superficial observations. Edited April 25, 2015 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matej Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Thanks for raising this issue here. It adds fuel to the theme of the thread about how tolerance of GLBT here is not quite at the paradisical levels that many perceive. With all the respect, but ... Someone always needs to highlight their personal opinion, that Thailand is not gay friendly ... How, can anyone possibly claim that? I don't understand at all. It's complete mystery for me. Maybe, we should all stop comparing our own hypothetical, ideal world with Thailand or with anything else and we will live happier lives. This rule literally applies to anything. I have only asserted that Thailand is not AS "gay friendly" to THAIS IN THAILAND as many people obviously believe based on superficial observations. I don't agree, but ... How many people, so many opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Don't agree. Doesn't concern me. This thread happens to be another example of forces in Thai society that give lie to the "gay paradise" myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nidieunimaitre Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 QUOTE: >> as well as monks or novice monks "with sexually deviant behaviours who by any actions disgrace Buddhism" (Article 41).<< I thought monks were supposed to be asexual? What exactly is "non deviant" sexual behavior by monks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 QUOTE: >> as well as monks or novice monks "with sexually deviant behaviours who by any actions disgrace Buddhism" (Article 41).<< I thought monks were supposed to be asexual? What exactly is "non deviant" sexual behavior by monks? I would suggest a more careful reading of the OP. It is very clear from that the concern is about demonizing people based on orientation and/or gender identity STATUS. That is different than sexual actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I thought monks were not supposed to have sex of any kind? The OP is not about having sex! Surely having sex or not, monks are human beings and have a sexuality and gender. YES?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Thailand tends to be a rather tolerant country in many regards and being gay for foreigners in Thailand is generally not particularly stressful. However, tolerance is not acceptance and tolerance does not provide legal protection. I run into this at work, where the instructions are "don't hire gays or Indians." I am not sure how to tell if someone is gay or not since a part of the interview process isn't asking someone for a blow job. On more than one occasion people have been discharged because they were believed to be gay. Very recently a Thai teacher was moved to another school because he was gay. He worked at the school as an upper level math teacher -- a very, very good teacher, I might add, until they found someone who could teach his subject. There was never any indication of any sexual involvement with staff or students. I know a number of Thai gays who are very careful to keep their sexual preference under wraps because they know they will be released from employment if their sexual orientation becomes well known. Most countries and societies need to have groups to scapegoat. When everything is OK, they may be tolerated, but when a diversion is needed they become easy targets. That's, in part, why legal protection is necessary. To paraphrase a close gay professional friend on why he is so careful about his sexuality, he said that he would like to keep his current job rather than 'be selling my ass on Silom.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isanbirder Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 I thought monks were not supposed to have sex of any kind? The OP is not about having sex! Surely having sex or not, monks are human beings and have a sexuality and gender. YES?!? Sure, but nobody is going to worry about it unless they exhibit sexual behaviour of some kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 (edited) I thought monks were not supposed to have sex of any kind? The OP is not about having sex! Surely having sex or not, monks are human beings and have a sexuality and gender. YES?!? Sure, but nobody is going to worry about it unless they exhibit sexual behaviour of some kind. That is obviously totally wrong. I'm sure that you must know in real life people often guess people's sexuality or gender identity based on behavioral clues. This new law makes just being gay or transgender an undesirable deviant state. This will obviously give grounds for discrimination based on judgments of whether people fit into these categories. Of course that can always happen, laws or not, but codify discrimination into law makes things even worse. I can't even begin to imagine what the motivation would be to suggest the law mentioned in the OP isn't specifically a threat to the well being of gay and transgendered people in Thailand. It boggles my mind. I imagine even the law crafters would agree that it is ... intentionally. A recent international survey revealed that Thailand is the most "religious" nation on the entire planet and of course Buddhism is a central part of Thai culture, well the Thai variation on Buddhism anyway. So changes impacting Buddhism in Thailand really are of major national import. For most Thai males who are Buddhists being at least a temporary monk is an important part of their inclusion in Thainess and Thai culture, not to mention their spiritual life, as the poll reveals the vast majority are believers. Edited April 26, 2015 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matej Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 Don't agree. Doesn't concern me. This thread happens to be another example of forces in Thai society that give lie to the "gay paradise" myth. This thread is example of nothing. Searching for partial information about something and then generalize won't help anyone. You hear what you want to hear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 Don't agree. Doesn't concern me. This thread happens to be another example of forces in Thai society that give lie to the "gay paradise" myth. This thread is example of nothing. Searching for partial information about something and then generalize won't help anyone. You hear what you want to hear. I hear you and I think I just read a load of diversionary pap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matej Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 Don't agree. Doesn't concern me. This thread happens to be another example of forces in Thai society that give lie to the "gay paradise" myth. This thread is example of nothing. Searching for partial information about something and then generalize won't help anyone. You hear what you want to hear. I hear you and I think I just read a load of diversionary pap. Me too. Have a nice day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 Me too. Have a nice day. Know thyself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isanbirder Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 Jingthing, the link quoted in OP said Although "sexually deviant behaviours" is legally ill-defined, it is a familiar term to Thai lay people and commonly refers to lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgenders. The fact that Article 41 fails to specify the "disgraceful" actions makes it clear that its target is not the actions, but the monks or novices who are or are perceived to be gay, bisexual or transgender. Because hetero-normative monks who commit these "disgraceful" actions would not be punished under this provision, the article must be dropped on grounds that it is discriminatory.... It refers specifically to'actions'... and then says the target is not the actions, but monks who are or are perceived to be gay etc. The whole thing seems to be pretty muddle-headed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 You really can't actually be that naive. Do you really think by sexually deviant behaviors they mean straight sex or straight orientation or cisgender identity, etc? I'm sorry, it's the truth, there is homophobia and transphobia in Thailand by Thais directed at Thais ... wake up and smell the coffee. Denial accomplishes nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isanbirder Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 You really can't actually be that naive. Do you really think by sexually deviant behaviors they mean straight sex or straight orientation or cisgender identity, etc? I'm sorry, it's the truth, there is homophobia and transphobia in Thailand by Thais directed at Thais ... wake up and smell the coffee. Denial accomplishes nothing. What are you talking about, Jingthing? Your post seems to have no connection whatsoever with mine (the one immediately preceding it), or indeed with any other previous posts. Nobody has suggested that by sexually deviant behaviour they mean straight sex, nor have they denied that there is homophobia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tominbkk Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Monasteries here are hotbeds of gay orgy activity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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