Your Children's Future

[Water Buffalo]

Double post

Edited April 28, 2015 by Water Buffalo

[ttthailand]

I am American and went to school there. If you look at the number of kids who drop out or just make it through I think you know how great those schools are. Unless the parent is involved in the education process the kids don't stand a chance. Thai or English, one of the parents needs to be involved and teach the kids reading, writing and math as early as possible. After that they will head in their own direction equipped with the basics. If they don't get that start they don't have a chance. Having one English speaking parent and some farang features if they get the basics down early they should do well in Thailand. If you want them to live in another country I think basic Thai schooling may be a problem.

[smotherb]

If you want your child to get a good job and have a chance at a good life--unless you have a fortune or a thriving business to leave them—you need to send them to college.

Yeah, I know, I’ll get a dozen yayhoos who claim they have no college and they do fine—but things have changed, it isn’t so easy to get a good job anymore without a degree.

Very few high earners took the traditional education route.

But if you are talking mediocre middle class job, and mediocre middle class life, then you're right.

To be a high earner, you need family money, family connections, right school, right fraternity, etc.

(That isn't including the few true entrepreneurs who make money with no education or special training)

If you aren't already in that group, it's unlikely your children will be allowed to join.

That is simply not true.

For example,

"Studies prove, time and again, that college-educated workers earn more than those with only a high school diploma." http://study.com/articles/How_Much_More_Do_College_Graduates_Earn_Than_Non-College_Graduates.html

"Among millennials ages 25 to 32, median annual earnings for full-time working college-degree holders are $17,500 greater than for those with high school diplomas only." http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/02/11/study-income-gap-between-young-college-and-high-school-grads-widens

"Education is a key factor in obtaining a job that allows one to make a lot of money. The amount of money your child will earn depends largely on their level of education, the career he/she chooses to pursue, and the length of time he/she invests in that career." http://www.cesdp.nmhu.edu/youth-programs/docs/earnings.pdf

"Young adults with just a high-school diploma earned 62 percent of the typical salary of college graduates. That's down from 81 percent in 1965, the earliest year for which comparable data are available." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/11/earnings-gap-college-grads-high-school_n_4768780.html

Sure, there are those with family money who continue to be well-paid because its in the family--the Melons, Rockefellers, the Waltons.

There are also those who became sucessful and have high incomes because of their unique skills and talent--Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos.

However, those are the big bucks billionaires--more power to you if your child becomes one of those. Planning for that outcome for your child may be fraught with disappointment.

It would be more prudent to prepare your child to earn six figure incomes; to be upper-middle class, rather than simply getting by.

[MaeJoMTB]

It would be more prudent to prepare your child to earn six figure incomes; to be upper-middle class, rather than simply getting by.

And my point being that your kids attending your average high school and average university won't get the average student that good an income.

Yep, OK if you are sending your kids to Cambridge or Yale but a waste of your life and theirs if you are sending them to Middlesborough Comprehensive followed by Hull University.

6 figure incomes, who the he_ll on TV earned that?

(I made that in Dollars, but only just, in GBP I don't think so.)

And I attended one of the best Universities in the UK and worked for one of the top companies in the UK.

Not to mention wages in the UK and Europe have dropped in the last 10 years.

Don't know about the US, never worked there, don't follow the wages there, can't imagine it's different though.

Edited April 28, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[KunMatt]

So was your use of countries' a typo or an educational error?

Educational, British schools are rubbish, but then I'm not claiming any different, and you are.

Thai schools are fit for purpose, training obedience.

British schools, not sure what they're good for these days .......... training Muslim ISIS terrorists?

Your little addition to that post shows that you are biased against the UK regardless of whether you are in favour of Thailand so you are already biased, now we know the reason why you would make so many confessions on your children's welfare.

And there will probably be more Thais killed by Muslim terrorists in Thailand today than people killed in the the UK by them ever.

[richard_smith237]

It would be more prudent to prepare your child to earn six figure incomes; to be upper-middle class, rather than simply getting by.

And my point being that your kids attending your average high school and average university won't get the average student that good an income.

Yep, OK if you are sending your kids to Cambridge or Yale but a waste of your life and theirs if you are sending them to Middlesborough Comprehensive followed by Hull University.

6 figure incomes, who the he_ll on TV earned that?

(I made that in Dollars, but only just, in GBP I don't think so.)

And I attended one of the best Universities in the UK and worked for one of the top companies in the UK.

Not to mention wages in the UK and Europe have dropped in the last 10 years.

Don't know about the US, never worked there, don't follow the wages there, can't imagine it's different though.

If money were no object, where would you School your children?

Would you be satisfied with a government or cheaper private school, or would you send your kids to Pattana in Bangkok or a Private School in the UK ?

[MaeJoMTB]

Your little addition to that post shows that you are biased against the UK ......

If I thought the UK was great, I would be living there.

I have enough money to live wherever I want (retired at 45 with golden parachute).

I choose live in Thailand (at the moment, but considering Spain).

Why are you still here?

If the UK is so good why aren't you living there?

I hope it's not because your education didn't allow you to earn enough money to live there, because that would mess up all your 'education' arguments.

Edited April 28, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[richard_smith237]

Your little addition to that post shows that you are biased against the UK ......

If I thought the UK was great, I would be living there.

I have enough money to live wherever I want (without working ever again, retired at 45).

I choose live in Thailand (at the moment, but considering Spain).

Why are you still here?

If the UK is so good why aren't you living there?

I hope it's not because your education didn't allow you to earn enough money to live there, because that would mess up all your 'education' arguments.

A valid argument.... Perhaps many live here for the same reason you may choose Spain - The Weather in the UK is rather miserable for the majority of the year.

From my personal perspective I can afford the Top Tier International Schools here (i.e. Pattana), thats where I intend to send my Son once he is of a suitable age (IMO this is about 10 years old).

Having sufficient funds to afford a decent school, one thing I wouldn't do is educate my children somewhere cheaper just to save some money. I will make a fully informed choice closer to the time, IMO as its currently stands Pattana is the best place to send our child.

IF I couldn't afford the decent International Schools here, now that I have a child I'd move back to the UK to ensure his education.

[KunMatt]

Your little addition to that post shows that you are biased against the UK ......

If I thought the UK was great, I would be living there.

I have enough money to live wherever I want (retired at 45 with golden parachute).

I choose live in Thailand (at the moment, but considering Spain).

Why are you still here?

If the UK is so good why aren't you living there?

I hope it's not because your education didn't allow you to earn enough money to live there, because that would mess up all your 'education' arguments.

You read my original post in this thread, right? Otherwise why are you asking questions and making wring assumptions to which I have already freely given the answers to??

[MaeJoMTB]

If money were no object, where would you School your children?

Eton or Rugby followed by Magdalen College Oxford.

(But I would need money and influence for that)

Anything less would be a worthless waste of money.

Edited April 28, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[richard_smith237]

If money were no object, where would you School your children?

Eton or Rugby followed by Magdalen College Oxford.

(But I would need money and influence for that)

Anything less would be a worthless waste of money.

There are many professionals who would disagree... find yourself in a hospital needing help from someone who has not been afforded this elite education and you may find this 'worthless waste of money' lifesaving...

[MaeJoMTB]

If money were no object, where would you School your children?

Eton or Rugby followed by Magdalen College Oxford.

(But I would need money and influence for that)

Anything less would be a worthless waste of money.

There are many professionals who would disagree... find yourself in a hospital needing help from someone who has not been afforded this elite education and you may find this 'worthless waste of money' lifesaving...

Now you're talking Doctor/Dentist/Pharmacist.

Something I know more than a little about.

Chances of entering these professions without influence and/or the right UK private school education are small.

You need to know the right subjects to study at GCSE level, AS level & A level, the right hobbies to have, the right volunteer work to do as a teenager.

Then you need the co-operation of your teachers and school, which you are unlikely to get at any government school.

Not to mention a close relative who is already in the desired profession.

Without years of the right guidance and influence, it ain't gonna happen in the UK.

Pattana won't cut it.

(These professions are a lot easier to enter in Thailand, school not all that important, a bribe in the right place far more important)

Edited April 28, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[Bangkokhatter]

This is something I will be facing in the next few years and have read the thread with interest, so trying to get back on topic, for what they're worth here are some thoughts.

I don't believe it is as simple as Karenbravo states, that is, just moving back to your home country if you cannot afford the top International schools here in Thailand. He actually admits to never having kids here so how can he give an informed opinion ? he is certainly not speaking from any experience.

I would never attempt to say the schools here are on par with Western countries, just not true, but those same western schools educated all the drivers, till operators, dustmen,labourers,and god knows how many other occupations the vast majority of western educated people go on to do. Am not knocking any of those trades, have done some myself when needs must but the fact remains a western education does not guarantee a decent paying career.

Now think about the foreign husband and the Thai wife happily settled in Thailand, him with a decent job ( but not International school standard salary ) her surrounded by friends and family and a young baby on the way to complete the happy family.

Do you just decide to uproot back to your mother country for the free and better education ? Now you have to hope Dad can get another good paying job, hope Mum can settle in ok in a totally alien enviroment and that the daughter does too. Actually for young kids probably not a problem. It maybe that you have swapped a relatively happy household for a living nightmare all in the name of a better education for your child. How happy would the child be with Mum and Dad constantly miserable ?

For me i am still undecided as i still have a home and family ties back in England and a job would not be an issue, but it's certainly not a forgone conclusion that we will go back and i understand some posters reasons for educating their children here.

[KarenBravo]

If money were no object, where would you School your children?

Eton or Rugby followed by Magdalen College Oxford.

(But I would need money and influence for that)

Anything less would be a worthless waste of money.

There are many professionals who would disagree... find yourself in a hospital needing help from someone who has not been afforded this elite education and you may find this 'worthless waste of money' lifesaving...

Now you're talking Doctor/Dentist/Pharmacist.

Something I know more than a little about.

Chances of entering these professions without influence and/or the right UK private school education are small.

You need to know the right subjects to study at GCSE level, AS level & A level, the right hobbies to have, the right volunteer work to do as a teenager.

Then you need the co-operation of your teachers and school, which you are unlikely to get at any government school.

Not to mention a close relative who is already in the desired profession.

Without years of the right guidance and influence, it ain't gonna happen in the UK.

Pattana won't cut it.

(These professions are a lot easier to enter in Thailand, school not all that important, a bribe in the right place far more important)

Yeah.....right.

That's why there is such a shortage of doctors and nurses in the U.K. that they have to be recruited from the sub-continent and the Philippines.

And for those that say I can't comment because I have no kids. What rubbish!

I have lived in SE Asia for 35 years now. By the time I had stayed five years, I knew that this is where I wanted to live the remainder of my life.

I took a conscious decision NOT to have children because I did not want to go back to the U.K. for the sake of the child's education, which I would have had to do as a responsible parent, as I was not in a position to pay for international schools. Nor was I willing to give up a child of mine to the Thai education system.

I believe that if you have children, then it is your responsibility to provide the best education available.

So you see, I actually live what I preach.

Edited April 28, 2015 by KarenBravo

[richard_smith237]

If money were no object, where would you School your children?

Eton or Rugby followed by Magdalen College Oxford.

(But I would need money and influence for that)

Anything less would be a worthless waste of money.

There are many professionals who would disagree... find yourself in a hospital needing help from someone who has not been afforded this elite education and you may find this 'worthless waste of money' lifesaving...

Now you're talking Doctor/Dentist/Pharmacist.

Something I know more than a little about.

Chances of entering these professions without influence and/or the right UK private school education are small.

You need to know the right subjects to study at GCSE level, AS level & A level, the right hobbies to have, the right volunteer work to do as a teenager.

Then you need the co-operation of your teachers and school, which you are unlikely to get at any government school.

Not to mention a close relative who is already in the desired profession.

Without years of the right guidance and influence, it ain't gonna happen in the UK.

Pattana won't cut it.

(These professions are a lot easier to enter in Thailand, school not all that important, a bribe in the right place far more important)

I'm talking professionals - Doctor, Dentist, Lawyer, Geologist, Architect, Civil Engineer.... (all earning six figure incomes)...

These are the professions of my circle of friends in the UK, all of whom attended a good Comprehensive School for GCSE's and A Levels before heading off to various university.

Of course, not everyone achieved this level of success in their careers, but it shows that conventional schooling has worked - Will it work in the future? I'm not sure.

If I ever form the opinion that my Child is unable to attend a decent University in the UK after being Schooled at Pattana or a Top Tier Thai School I would move back to the UK.

I agree that the right guidance is required - a decent school offers this.

It seems our experiences differ widely. I'm saying education matters, it is possible to achieve success (if we are measuring success as six figure yearly incomes which you mentioned in an earlier post). You are suggesting that its not possible without 'money and influence', I know of many examples whereby this level of success is readily available without money and influence, but where a decent education was available (UK).

In contrast to your comment where you suggest 'anything less [than Top Tier UK education] would be worthless' I am suggesting that any education is better than none and that a good education is better than an average one.

[MaeJoMTB]

That's why there is such a shortage of doctors and nurses in the U.K. that they have to be recruited from the sub-continent and the Philippines.

Anyone can be a nurse, not much education needed, I never included nurses, low paid menial staff.

We're talking 6 figure incomes, you know any nurses in the UK on them?

Edited April 28, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[KarenBravo]

That's why there is such a shortage of doctors and nurses in the U.K. that they have to be recruited from the sub-continent and the Philippines.

Anyone can be a nurse, not much education needed, I never included nurses, low paid menial staff.

We're talking 6 figure incomes, you know any nurses in the UK on them?

And what about all the doctors from the sub-continent? Also, many Eastern European doctors.

I see that you pointedly did not mention that.

[Boo]

If money were no object, where would you School your children?

Eton or Rugby followed by Magdalen College Oxford.

(But I would need money and influence for that)

Anything less would be a worthless waste of money.

There are many professionals who would disagree... find yourself in a hospital needing help from someone who has not been afforded this elite education and you may find this 'worthless waste of money' lifesaving...

Now you're talking Doctor/Dentist/Pharmacist.

Something I know more than a little about.

Chances of entering these professions without influence and/or the right UK private school education are small.

You need to know the right subjects to study at GCSE level, AS level & A level, the right hobbies to have, the right volunteer work to do as a teenager.

Then you need the co-operation of your teachers and school, which you are unlikely to get at any government school.

Not to mention a close relative who is already in the desired profession.

Without years of the right guidance and influence, it ain't gonna happen in the UK.

Pattana won't cut it.

(These professions are a lot easier to enter in Thailand, school not all that important, a bribe in the right place far more important)

wrong. As for nurses, you need a 3 year training to become one. clearly not menial staff

http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-career/nursing/training-to-be-a-nurse/

[MaeJoMTB]

If I ever form the opinion that my Child is unable to attend a decent University in the UK after being Schooled at Pattana or a Top Tier Thai School I would move back to the UK.

They can attend a decent University, but not the top ones.

They can take a degree course, but will be excluded from the competitive entrance degree courses.

When the universities need bums on seats they will take anyone.

But on many courses, they are vastly oversubscribed, they will pick and choose, and they won't choose from Pattana.

When I used to travel round the universities I would ask.

How many students can you take each year in this subject.

How many students started this course last year.

How many applicants did you get for this course last year?

How many interviews and places did you offer to those applicants?

For example from two extremes,

Bath University Pharmacy school, 3500 applicants, 300 interviews, 300 place offers, 100 places available, 105 filled last year.

Exeter University Physics, 400 applicants, 350 interviews, 300 place offers, 100 places available, 80 filled last year.

The courses that lead to big wages are really hard to get on, the courses leading to low wage employment are empty.

Where I worked (degree needed), we would get 5000 applicants for 3-5 jobs.

Selection process went something like this,

Put them in two piles, standard A4 paper in the junk pile, quality paper in the for consideration file.

That would reduce the work load to 50-100 applications which was far more manageable.

Then interview 10.

Edited April 28, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[KarenBravo]

You would choose applicants on the quality of the paper they used for the application?

No wonder you hold some strange views!

[Bangkokhatter]

@ Karen Bravo, i can't see where any one said you could not comment. I did say your comments are not based on your experiences as you admit you have no kids. A long time here does not mean much when the OP is all about where to educate your children. You have never faced the problem, your gallant decision all those years ago does not mean much either.

[MaeJoMTB]

You would choose applicants on the quality of the paper they used for the application?

No wonder you hold some strange views!

It was a major UK company.

Would you expect them to read 5000 applications for a junior job (at least 2x A4 pages per application).

How long would it take, how much company money would it waste?

(say 5 min per application x 5000 = 400hrs = 10 weeks for 1 HR person)

How would you do it? justify your time and the expense.

Think outside the box, the world isn't the way you would like it to be.

Which is why I earned the big bucks and you didn't.

Amusing story,

One time we asked for all applications to be hand written, and had them short listed by a hand writing expert.

Find us 20, we said (out of thousands of applications).

Edited April 28, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[khunPer]

OK, KarenBravo

I will just try to reply to all your posts here since i can't quote all the different things you have said.

I don't advocate that we shouldn't educate our kids, but that we should do it differently. See post #46 for what that means, in my humble opinion. And there ain't a single country in the world doing that.

Being educated in the west doesn't necessarily offer a better future. It is arrogant to think so. Asian people are doing fine, in case you haven't noticed.

There is more creativity here. More business owners. More entrepreneurs. People in the the west are largely owned by the system. They are told, "You can't start a business, you have to join a business". And they reply, "OK, boss!". Hows that for critical thinking, Karen? Their schooling as turned them into mindless drones.

Frankly, you can see way more clever thinking from Thais, than westerners.

Your whole attitude is arrogant: We keep our children here selfishly. We should never have had kid with a particular woman. We should never have married her. etc etc.

Why don't you just take care of your own family and stop judging others for having children in Thailand and not fleeing back to where we came from for so-called education.

Come down off your high-horse for a second. Did you fail your own child and that's why you have to attack us to make yourself feel better? Otherwise, why do you attack us?

I don't think there is anything wrong with going back west to have your child schooled. I don't judge you. I just don't see it as you do.

Oh dear. Your offended.

Educating your kids differently? And then you say that no other country does it. I wonder why? Maybe because it isn't much good?

I'm not talking about "Asian people", I'm talking about Thailand and the Thais. If you can school your kids in South Korea, Singapore, or Japan, countries where education is valued, then great. But, isn't it easier and less expensive to educate them in your own Western country?

More entrepreneurs? Yup....you're right. Lot's of people with noodle-carts etc. etc.

If there are all these entrepreneurs in Asia, where is the Asian versions of Microsoft, Apple etc. World class companies? Oh yes, they all come from South Korea, Japan and Taiwan.

In fact, I can only think of a single world class Thai company and that is the rather low-tech Charoen Pokphand.

Yes, I will judge you, because I know that if I had children I would want the best education that I could possibly get for them. And that ain't in Thailand, unless you go to an international school, and I would act accordingly. Shell out the dough, or, go home to my own country.

Funny how guilty feelings always turn into anger when a stranger points out that they're being selfish at the expense of their children.

I know you don't want to hear it, but, that's just tough. This is a public forum. Learn to use the scroll bar, if you must.

In twenty years when your kids are grown up and you look at them, you will know that I am right.

What's wrong with noodle-carts? They make decent money, don't you know? I know some making 50K+ with their own small food business. We don't need so many world class companies.

Classic. This just keeps getting better and better. You don't even have children, yet you are telling other members they shouldn't have married this woman and had kids with that woman. You blame them for their kids getting poor education because of their partner selection. And, you wonder why someone gets offended?

Please tell. Why don't you have children?

I don't feel guilty. My daughter has a standard of living and quality of life here, which i couldn't provide in my own country. All the people i know live in rough council estates and struggle on minimum wage. Where did their education get them?

»What's wrong with noodle-carts? They make decent money, don't you know? I know some making 50K+ with their own small food business.«

-And just out of University after years of studying your starting salary is 15k baht a month...

[KarenBravo]

@ Karen Bravo, i can't see where any one said you could not comment. I did say your comments are not based on your experiences as you admit you have no kids. A long time here does not mean much when the OP is all about where to educate your children. You have never faced the problem, your gallant decision all those years ago does not mean much either.

Because I have no children, you think I can't comment on this subject?

Seems to me it's very simple. It's about "doing the right thing". If you decide to have a child here in Thailand, but, can't afford a decent education here and the only decent education that is equivalent to my home country (UK) is the international schools, then, you should take your child back home to get that education.

See? Simple.

Your straw-man argument doesn't work I'm afraid. Probably due to my excellent education at a British state school where I learned critical thinking.

Edited April 28, 2015 by KarenBravo

[MaeJoMTB]

Your straw-man argument doesn't work I'm afraid. Probably due to my excellent education at a British state school where I learned critical thinking.

But did you learn to earn real money?

Did you learn how the system worked and how to play it?

I think not.

But you probably know how to get a "fair days wage for a fair days work"

[KarenBravo]

Your straw-man argument doesn't work I'm afraid. Probably due to my excellent education at a British state school where I learned critical thinking.

But did you learn to earn real money?

Did you learn how the system worked and how to play it?

I think not.

But you probably know how to get a "fair days wage for a fair days work"

Actually yes.

I'm a consultant in the oil exploration business. I earn a six figure number in dollars every year. At least for the last ten years.

I think you could describe my situation more as a fair week's wage for a fair day's work.

Please take note of my avatar. A ship that does oil exploration. You may also discover why my name is KarenBravo.

Edited April 28, 2015 by KarenBravo

[Happy Grumpy]

"Your Children's Future"

The second highest poster is someone that doesn't have children.

Hmmm.

[KarenBravo]

"Your Children's Future"

The second highest poster is someone that doesn't have children.

Hmmm.

For a reason that is very pertinent to this thread.

Or, can't you see that?

If you can only discuss what you experience directly, you might as well throw out every school curriculum.

Thought I'd already knocked down that straw-man.

Edited April 28, 2015 by KarenBravo

[Amavel]

Thai school for the social skills. Online for the education, such as Khan Academy. Online programs are the future.

[Blackfox]

OMG....What started out as a very informative, non biased thread began going downhill from half way.

Can nobody take the advice of Richard Smith recently and make a positive contribution....

I don't have children, but I just might.

My initial schooling was in Melbourne, then here (Top tier) and University in Australia.

My feelings; if I were to have a child or more, then it's one of the three Top Tier schools followed by further education in Australia if warranted.

When I consider friends, colleagues and acquaintances I have grown up and worked with, I wouldn't consider anything less.

On another note; what a wonderful contribution the Thai/American physician made before losing her life recently on Everest (albeit young life).

Have a think about that.

A Thai top tier or western education will without doubt on the whole far supersede anything less.

The education is one aspect but quality of life opportunities are unparalleled by anything less.