A dilemma

[watgate]

I have just read about the horrific accident where 3 bicyclists were killed and several others were badly injured by a drunk driver. As a person who rides my bicycle around Chiang Mai as my main form of transportation, I am in a quandary going forward as how to best proceed considering my lack of viable options. I never learned to ride a motorcycle and I don't think Chiang Mai is the right place to learn to ride one. If others think differently, is their any place one can go to learn to ride one so you can become proficient enough to feel reasonably secure when riding a motorcycle? I have driven a car once or twice in Chiang Mai, and although I consider myself to be a good driver, I feel it very unsettling driving in this environment considering how the Thai's drive coupled with all the motorcyclists darting and weaving in and out of traffic. Maybe I will be resigned to having to rely on Songtaews to get around since I am starting to realize that riding a bicycle is kinda like playing Russian Rolette in so far as it is only a matter of time before you get blown away, either by a drunk driver or a careless driver not paying attention or in a hurry. I like my independence and being able to get from point A to point B on my bicycle but now I am starting to have serious reservations about the use of my bicycle considering the reality of riding in Chiang Mai with all the inherent dangers.

[TheAppletons]

You think riding a motorcycle will be less dangerous than riding a bicycle? Interesting logic, that.

[NancyL]

Song thaews and tuk-tuks. You can develop a relationship with a tuk-tuk driver or two and really not have to give up your "independence". Admittedly it's more expensive than riding a bicycle, but safer, especially if your tuk-tuk driver has one of those new red tuk-tuks with the longer wheelbase. They seem more stable.

[tifino]

your Independence ends when you can no longer feed yourself, due broken neck, or worse

[eyecatcher]

You cannot wrap yourself up in cotton wool to that extent. If the quality of your life here is being affected by worrying about survival on the roads then seriously its easier to move to a safer country.

Every activity carries risks so as a cyclist the basic safety kit should include good flashing lights, fluorescent strips; hi viz bib; (air horns? are they still made?) safety helmet and limit your time on the bike after dark.

You cannot make provision for every accident but hi visibility may stimulate the senses of the drunk driver for 3 seconds which may save your life.

[Konini]

The crash was terrible news. Mr K has been out with them a few times for a Sunday morning bike ride. 3 families changed forever by a drunk teenager - I hope justice will be served and he gets a custodial sentence.

[green job]

The crash was terrible news. Mr K has been out with them a few times for a Sunday morning bike ride. 3 families changed forever by a drunk teenager - I hope justice will be served and he gets a custodial sentence.

It was a woman,not a man

[apetley]

The crash was terrible news. Mr K has been out with them a few times for a Sunday morning bike ride. 3 families changed forever by a drunk teenager - I hope justice will be served and he gets a custodial sentence.

The driver was a woman aged 24 years.

[Konini]

You've gotta love the journalistic standards here; I stand corrected.

Still an absolute tragedy. Off topic here, but I keep reading about this kind of thing and other deaths that could have been so easily avoided and will cause vast amounts of tears, fears and insecurities, let alone financial hardship to those left behind - I have to be honest, it's really starting to get to me. There just seems to be so many. Perhaps it's because I read the UK, Australian and Thai news sites. I'm going to have to be careful, new medication has a potential side effect of depression, I hope I'm just having a bad week and not going there.

[Johpa]

is their any place one can go to learn to ride one so you can become proficient enough to feel reasonably secure when riding a motorcycle?

Given the relatively sudden and dramatic increase in popularity of bicycle riding up north, I am not surprised that there has been a multiple fatality accident.

As for places to learn to ride, may I suggest the canal road behind Mae Jo followed by the Samoeng Loop.

[trainman34014]

I ride my bike every day and although this 'accident'...for want of an expression, is awful, i cannot allow it to inhibit my future riding habits. It's rather like people who say they won't fly because the Aircraft may crash but my approach has always been that if your number is up it matters not where you are or what you are doing...it's time to go. Fate will decide when our time comes.

[CNXBKKMAN]

I ride my bicycle everyday in the city also. Choose the smaller roads, tiny soi's and you can criss cross the city easily. As mentioned above you are no safer on a motorcycle. There are a few things you have to accept in Thailand or be totally ignorant about to remain relatively happy.

The roads are very dangerous even in a car or bus nevermind on foot, bike or honda dream.

The air pollution is hazardous to health in Chiang Mai for at least one month of the year.

Approx 40% of the veg, fruit and meat sold thai markets(where the restaurants buy their food) is hazardous to health. Cancer causing chemicals banned in the western world contaminate the produce. Anti biotics, hormones...Are you getting the good stuff or the hazardous 40%? Who knows.

This list could go on and on. Basically you can love Thailand and be very happy here but your life expectancy is going to be lower here compared to the west for most people.

[DogNo1]

The faster and heavier your two-wheeled vehicle the more serious your injuries from an accident are likely to be. I suggest that you continue to ride your bicycle if you are confident that you can ride very defensively, ready to stop at any time. My two motorcycle accidents were caused because I was riding too fast and was not ready to stop in an instant. Good luck.

[johnsjourney]

Yes I agree the key is defence and that means using a mirror and always being aware what is happening behind or anywhere.

I like the small sois too as it's less effort to check everything.

Respect size... If it's a larger vehicle in practice it has right of way.

No need to stop cycling, unless it's one of those pull a trailer types where an around the world almost record holder died in a Thai country lane recently, he had no ability to manoeuvre with that.

A bicycle can occupy almost zero space on the road, so there is plenty to avoid an accident with but only if you look for it coming.

[bangmai]

higher rent=better location=more walkability and lower transport costs. It's very easy for a newcomer to get lured into living in the suburbs; you obviously get more space for the money and even a yard. Unless you need the bedrooms for family; it is a mistake, IMO.

[mr chow]

How about attacking the root of the problem. Drunk Thai's and the terrible Thai drivers. That being said.....it ain't gonna happen. So....live your life the way you want just suspect that Most Thai people simply cannot drive as you know it.

[watgate]

Onca again, much great feedback and info. I can always count on Thai visa posters to deliver much food for thought and putting things in their proper perspective. I have to do some soul searching and decide how to best proceed going forward. In the meantime, I am going to do some modifications to my bike such as a rear view mirror, wearing my bicycle helmet, and limiting my riding my bicycle at night. I realize you can't live in a vacuum but realistically things can be done to hopefully increase the odds in your favor. The advice about the food and air we encounter and consume is spot on and is a sobering reminder of what folks have to deal with daily. Thanks for the interesting and infromative posts and I truly hope and pray that the families of the bicyclists who were killed are consoled and able to find some peace in their sorrow and grief.

[chingmai331]

"Approx 40% of the veg, fruit and meat sold thai markets(where the restaurants buy their food) is hazardous to health. Cancer causing chemicals banned in the western world contaminate the produce. "

Where do you get this drivel? Twaddle talk for the fearful and ignorant. Show me some hard data which supports such notions.

Which chemicals are you talking about? What do you mean by 'hazardous'? Yeah, i can choke on a fish bone, but is fish eating hazardous to my health?

[Konini]

1. Not sure where the figure comes from, but I've both heard a similar if not the same figure being used before, and have absolutely no trouble believing it.

2. DDT. I'm neither a chemical engineer or keen gardener, so the fact that I even know what DDT is should be alarming. Until we started living here I honestly thought that they'd banned that stuff when I was at primary school. Obviously, it's only certain countries around the world that have banned it. Like most of them.

And fish can be hazardous to your health if you're eating that farmed pacific dory from Vietnam and China. There are, apparently, video's on youtube for the interested.

[NancyL]

higher rent=better location=more walkability and lower transport costs. It's very easy for a newcomer to get lured into living in the suburbs; you obviously get more space for the money and even a yard. Unless you need the bedrooms for family; it is a mistake, IMO.

Wow, bangmai, you're actually making sense!

Also, in the city there's more opportunity for a newcomer to interact with others and to explore the area on foot. Healthier because the newcomer is getting exercise and building a social network. Not as easy to do when someone lives in the suburbs and simply goes from Point A to Point B on a scooter or in a car and only gets to know their immediate neighbors.

[junglechef]

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I ride my bicycle everyday in the city also. Choose the smaller roads, tiny soi's and you can criss cross the city easily. As mentioned above you are no safer on a motorcycle. There are a few things you have to accept in Thailand or be totally ignorant about to remain relatively happy.
The roads are very dangerous even in a car or bus nevermind on foot, bike or honda dream.
The air pollution is hazardous to health in Chiang Mai for at least one month of the year.
Approx 40% of the veg, fruit and meat sold thai markets(where the restaurants buy their food) is hazardous to health. Cancer causing chemicals banned in the western world contaminate the produce. Anti biotics, hormones...Are you getting the good stuff or the hazardous 40%? Who knows.
This list could go on and on. Basically you can love Thailand and be very happy here but your life expectancy is going to be lower here compared to the west for most people.

Quite a fatalistic attitude if one knows better

Being pro-active can increase safety in one's life.

I'm an avid cyclist but never ride in the city and rarely ever on the larger roads esp the highways.

I take my family to where the air is clean during the smokey time here.

I try to eat the healthy food, I know 100% that the organic veg I grow using my own well water and homemade organic pesticides and fertilizer most probably isn't hazardous (I haven't had it test though).

These are a few things I do, and I'm not saying it is possible for everyone to, but I think I'm going to live longer here (a hard one to prove) here then back in the US just from the less stressful life.

As the OP implied that they could afford a car I think that would be a good recommendation if they want the freedom of independence (not relying on a songtell driver or anyone else)

The OP's second post of "increasing the odds in your favor" is the right attitude as his their heartfelt condolences to the victims.

May Their God Be With Them

[quidnunc]

"Approx 40% of the veg, fruit and meat sold thai markets(where the restaurants buy their food) is hazardous to health. Cancer causing chemicals banned in the western world contaminate the produce. "

Where do you get this drivel? Twaddle talk for the fearful and ignorant. Show me some hard data which supports such notions.

Which chemicals are you talking about? What do you mean by 'hazardous'? Yeah, i can choke on a fish bone, but is fish eating hazardous to my health?

Here are a few links to support chingmai331's contention about food in Thailand being hazardous to health. just google formalin thailand if you want to find a lot more

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/health-ministry-warns-increasing-use-formalin-vendors-fresh-markets

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Keep-the-corpse-preserver-out-of-our-food-30229062.html

Edited May 4, 2015 by quidnunc

[robblok]

You think riding a motorcycle will be less dangerous than riding a bicycle? Interesting logic, that.

Actually as a mc rider I think it is because too slow is dangerous. With a mc you can at least move at the speed of traffic and that changes the game.

Anyway if your not good at riding one... then don't but I do think that a mc is safer as a bike.

I ride both a car and scooter and a big bike. I can tell you i feel safer on the big bike as on the scooter and safest but most bored in the car.

[quidnunc]

And it's not just formalin that makes the food supply risky:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/learning/learning-from-news/200014/food-contamination-nationwide-tests-reveal-problems

[GBHK]

Whether a bicycle or a scooter, there's no doubt that you are more exposed. The motorbike goes faster, is heavier and harder to handle so the risk of a bad accident is much greater particularly if you have never ridden one. It makes absolutely no sense to switch to one if safety is your concern.

I think people are blowing things out of proportion. I ride between 5 and 15 thousand kilometre a year and have done so for most if my life on every continent. This summer I will be doing the mountains of Colombia. I've never had a serious accident and don't find Thailand to be any worse than western countries. As a matter of fact, I think it's quite good to ride here because there's often a wide shoulder due to the large numbers of motorbikes and people are used to seeing two wheel vehicles. I wholeheartedly agree that it's wise to avoid riding at night, wear a helmet and have visible clothing and of course a very bright light if you do end up riding when it's dark. In my opinion, the benefits of riding a bike far outweigh the dangers. It's a great exercise and there's very little impact on the body which is great for older people.

[CNXBKKMAN]

"Approx 40% of the veg, fruit and meat sold thai markets(where the restaurants buy their food) is hazardous to health. Cancer causing chemicals banned in the western world contaminate the produce. "

Where do you get this drivel? Twaddle talk for the fearful and ignorant. Show me some hard data which supports such notions.

Which chemicals are you talking about? What do you mean by 'hazardous'? Yeah, i can choke on a fish bone, but is fish eating hazardous to my health?

It was a government survey that was done on wet markets in Bangkok. I have unscientifically applied to the whole of Thailand. This report was done 10 years ago? When i used still read the Bangkok Post. The thai way of not naming the offenders or the markets was used. It was also mentioned that painkillers are added to the water that is sprinkled over the veg to keep them fresh looking. Another snippet i remember is the farmers who produce the chemical covered veg wont eat it themselves. They have a separate part of their land growing veg for their own use.

Is it 20, 30, 40 or 50 % of our local Chiang Mai markets that has dangerous fruit, veg, prawns, beef, chicken? Dangerous as in not meeting EU standards. If you live in Thailand longer than a holiday you have to accept or be blissfully ignorant of food safety and its effect on your long term health. There wont be many farangs in Thailand with a couple of rai of land growing their own stuff and practicing the kings "porpieng" self sufficency plan. Apart from soaking and washing everything what can you do?

[ToonBroon]

Seems Chiang Mai is not the only city with this problem:

"A cyclist is in an accident with a motor vehicle once every two hours on average on roads around the capital, according to research.

Almost 23,000 incidents involving bicycles were recorded in London over a four-year period, raising fears that it is struggling to cater for rising numbers of cyclists despite the millions of pounds set aside for safety schemes."

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article4364407.ece

TB

[CNXBKKMAN]

And it's not just formalin that makes the food supply risky:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/learning/learning-from-news/200014/food-contamination-nationwide-tests-reveal-problems

I have been reading stuff like this since first setting foot in Thailand in 1993. I used to enjoy the road side meatballs and crabsticks back then but i have long stopped eating them. Possibly one of the most unhealthy things you could eat plus they are guaranteed to be fried in secondhand reconditioned oil.

The thai way on serious public safety issues like the northern smoke or food safety is to not make a big fuss over it. People have to eat and breath. If the goverment isnt tackling the problem head on the goverment wont big up the dangers.

[robblok]

Whether a bicycle or a scooter, there's no doubt that you are more exposed. The motorbike goes faster, is heavier and harder to handle so the risk of a bad accident is much greater particularly if you have never ridden one. It makes absolutely no sense to switch to one if safety is your concern.

I think people are blowing things out of proportion. I ride between 5 and 15 thousand kilometre a year and have done so for most if my life on every continent. This summer I will be doing the mountains of Colombia. I've never had a serious accident and don't find Thailand to be any worse than western countries. As a matter of fact, I think it's quite good to ride here because there's often a wide shoulder due to the large numbers of motorbikes and people are used to seeing two wheel vehicles. I wholeheartedly agree that it's wise to avoid riding at night, wear a helmet and have visible clothing and of course a very bright light if you do end up riding when it's dark. In my opinion, the benefits of riding a bike far outweigh the dangers. It's a great exercise and there's very little impact on the body which is great for older people.

I don't agree.. having ridden bikes more as most people (Dutch guy) I know the difference well between a bike and a scooter. On the larger roads.. scooter wins it from a bike for safety (provided your as competent on a scooter as you are on a bike).

Going to the U turns on the fast side of the road.. bike vs scooter.. bike looses out as its far slower and can't speed up with traffic to merge into the U turn. If traffic is heavy it will be real hard for a bike.

On small roads, not much difference between the two.

I even feel on the bigger roads that my scooter is not fast enough and only my big bike will do.. speed does not only kill but also helps you get out of the way of things and stay at the same speed the rest of traffic has. That is a real big advantage traveling at the same speed as the rest of traffic.

Of course all bikes motorbike included are not as safe as a car.. but cars are slow and in traffic one would wish he had taken the motorbike.

[umbanda]

I think that bycicles are safer than motorbikes. Smaller and faster your wheels are, your risk of big injuries on an accident are bigger.

That's the main reason small cars and bikes are not so popular in the US considering its population, and more and more people are buying big SUVs. The bigger the better. I bought a small car here, and I am regreting.

Next time I will go for a truck, even if I do not like big cars. Bycicling.... just around home, and in country roads.