Officer: Shooting at Muhammad cartoon contest in Texas

[Publicus]

The fact of the matter is that a lot of things are done that could be considered as deliberately inflaming tensions in the community. In the past, things, like:

---demonstrations and marches for the right for women to vote.

---demonstrations against slavery.

---demonstrations for gay rights.

etc., etc., etc.,

Some of whom faced violence and death.

Yes but the killers were in the wrong and the protesters had something they really believed in. They all made a lot of positive progress too.

Do you think the world will ever make progress against Islamic terrorists who, via protests learn to accept that the protesters have a right to their own beliefs/religions/speech and yes even art?

Do you think that the world can make the same progress with Muslims that it has been making for women, gays and slaves?

Do you see a day when protests wake up Muslims and make them tolerant of others?

I don't. I think we (society) are going to keep killing them in the streets.

I think the day will come when we will see a much more tolerance among Muslims that what we see now. The current situation is unsustainable and given enough time and exposure to other values and ways of life, it will change.

I just don't know that it's going to happen in the short term and I just don't know how we go about getting it to move in that direction.

I am not anti-Islam. I have lived and worked with Muslims and I have relatives that are Muslim, although they are very far removed from anything fundamentalist; they don't usually eat pork, but they do enjoy a drink. I also have a relative married to a Jew and they all seem to get along at family gatherings. It's possible.

The post contributes the need for a focus on the consistently overlooked reality there are Muslims and there are Muslims and that there are Muslims, not to mention there are yet other and still more Muslims.

Early on during the several years I'd spent in a Muslim majority province (90%) in the Thai deep South, my Muslim business associate and close friend had quipped to me that the Muslims there don't like camel droppings that pass as pieces of fruit, which I said to him are called dates in English. The message and point were as clear to me as my friend had intended to be, i.e., that Thai Muslims are not Middle East Muslims; moreover, they rather look down on the intolerant Muslims of the still ancient ME.

Thai Muslims down south are closely connected to Malay Muslims but Thai Muslims are indeed Thais. Malay Muslims I met and got to know in Malaysia don't care at all for camel fruit either. I also met Muslims from Indonesia who during dinners and evenings under the stars of Johnnie Black make clear they too are apart and distinct from ME Muslims. A good number of the Thai Muslims take a annual pass on Ramadan to include hard liquor. I was initially surprised by the number of young and single Muslim women who, while dressed similarly to old fashioned Catholic nuns, receive a man friend later on in the evenings.

While all Thai Muslims down there expressed to me their profound concern for the Palestinians and their cause, they simultaneously distanced themselves from ME Muslims. Even though many Thai Muslims support the people of Iran, they also don't like things nuclear, nor do they like the ayatollahs controlling democracy there.

Significantly, Thai Muslims I know haven't ever said a word about Israel, either way.

My Muslim friends invited me to mosque so I on several occasions endured observed first hand their religious services and their prayers and enjoyed their Muslim food after the services (males and females separated by a wall). My friend's only comment after my first Friday service was that those who open their arms widely during prayer are the poor ones because all the money from heaven falls through the larger space that worshipers with their hands close together preclude .

Thailand is indeed its own place with its own culture, customs, traditions, but it does have Muslims, most of which I'd say are of a very different mindset and pattern of behaviors than are the headline Muslims of the ME in particular. It's reasonable to say that other Muslims in other parts of the world can also be categorized as being more concerned about managing and succeeding in their everyday life at work, family and home life, and in recreational pursuits, than in any ideological crusade or any similar bents.

[Publicus]

I just wish people such as Geller would spend their energy to encourage the Muslim community to embrace positive values rather than a continuum of total negativity contributing to schism within society. Oh & BTW why would anyone support her with such an appalling track record...

Not possible any more than it was to encourage the positive aspects of nazism or communism, and to try would be a waste of her time, the ideology of Islam does not pander to discussion, reason or logic

Talking about ideology is rather abstract.

[Chicog]

Your record for providing evidence of your claims in rather slim. I will worry about it when it actually happens.

Yes, I realise you're not a big fan of facts that undermine your beliefs.

I tried reading her blog. It's the most demented rubbish I think I've ever come across, on a par with David Icke or Alex Jones.

I'll let you try and make sense of it.

She really, really hates Albanians.

She opens a piece with "An extremely important post on the lie of the “Srebrenica Genocide”"

That's her website.

So if you really don't think that counts as evidence, then you'd best come up with one of your best spins.

[simple1]

She has spoken favorably of South African racists, defended Serbian war criminal Radovan Karadzic, and denied the existence of Serbian concentration camps.

I would like some actual proof of this and I don't mean an article that is full of lies and unsubstantiated exaggerations that are simply cover for the sins of radical Islam.

Surely you are just being inflamatory by stating "simply cover for the sins of radical Islam". However, article below going into a fair amount of detail, Put aside the source and have a read, makes a very good case against Geller's denials.

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/did-pamela-geller-defend-radovan-karadzic/0019907

The appalling atrocities of the Serbs have been reported in detail by senior commanders of UK forces who served in the theater of operations.

[NeverSure]

The post contributes the need for a focus on the consistently overlooked reality there are Muslims and there are Muslims and that there are Muslims, not to mention there are yet other and still more Muslims.

Early on during the several years I'd spent in a Muslim majority province (90%) in the Thai deep South, my Muslim business associate and close friend had quipped to me that the Muslims there don't like camel droppings that pass as pieces of fruit, which I said to him are called dates in English. The message and point were as clear to me as my friend had intended to be, i.e., that Thai Muslims are not Middle East Muslims; moreover, they rather look down on the intolerant Muslims of the still ancient ME.

Thai Muslims down south are closely connected to Malay Muslims but Thai Muslims are indeed Thais. Malay Muslims I met and got to know in Malaysia don't care at all for camel fruit either. I also met Muslims from Indonesia who during dinners and evenings under the stars of Johnnie Black make clear they too are apart and distinct from ME Muslims. A good number of the Thai Muslims take a annual pass on Ramadan to include hard liquor. I was initially surprised by the number of young and single Muslim women who, while dressed similarly to old fashioned Catholic nuns, receive a man friend later on in the evenings.

While all Thai Muslims down there expressed to me their profound concern for the Palestinians and their cause, they simultaneously distanced themselves from ME Muslims. Even though many Thai Muslims support the people of Iran, they also don't like things nuclear, nor do they like the ayatollahs controlling democracy there.

Significantly, Thai Muslims I know haven't ever said a word about Israel, either way.

My Muslim friends invited me to mosque so I on several occasions endured observed first hand their religious services and their prayers and enjoyed their Muslim food after the services (males and females separated by a wall). My friend's only comment after my first Friday service was that those who open their arms widely during prayer are the poor ones because all the money from heaven falls through the larger space that worshipers with their hands close together preclude .

Thailand is indeed its own place with its own culture, customs, traditions, but it does have Muslims, most of which I'd say are of a very different mindset and pattern of behaviors than are the headline Muslims of the ME in particular. It's reasonable to say that other Muslims in other parts of the world can also be categorized as being more concerned about managing and succeeding in their everyday life at work, family and home life, and in recreational pursuits, than in any ideological crusade or any similar bents.

Bullshit!!!

There have been about 7,000 terrorist deaths in S. Thailand just since 9/11!!! That's more than twice as many killed by terrorists in the US including 9/11.

Muslims are their own worst enemies and I hope you'll excuse me for not trusting a single one of them. At the least they certainly need to hire a new PR guy.

[simple1]

Yes but the killers were in the wrong and the protesters had something they really believed in. They all made a lot of positive progress too.

Do you think the world will ever make progress against Islamic terrorists who, via protests learn to accept that the protesters have a right to their own beliefs/religions/speech and yes even art?

Do you think that the world can make the same progress with Muslims that it has been making for women, gays and slaves?

Do you see a day when protests wake up Muslims and make them tolerant of others?

I don't. I think we (society) are going to keep killing them in the streets.

I think the day will come when we will see a much more tolerance among Muslims that what we see now. The current situation is unsustainable and given enough time and exposure to other values and ways of life, it will change.

I just don't know that it's going to happen in the short term and I just don't know how we go about getting it to move in that direction.

I am not anti-Islam. I have lived and worked with Muslims and I have relatives that are Muslim, although they are very far removed from anything fundamentalist; they don't usually eat pork, but they do enjoy a drink. I also have a relative married to a Jew and they all seem to get along at family gatherings. It's possible.

The post contributes the need for a focus on the consistently overlooked reality there are Muslims and there are Muslims and that there are Muslims, not to mention there are yet other and still more Muslims.

Early on during the several years I'd spent in a Muslim majority province (90%) in the Thai deep South, my Muslim business associate and close friend had quipped to me that the Muslims there don't like camel droppings that pass as pieces of fruit, which I said to him are called dates in English. The message and point were as clear to me as my friend had intended to be, i.e., that Thai Muslims are not Middle East Muslims; moreover, they rather look down on the intolerant Muslims of the still ancient ME.

Thai Muslims down south are closely connected to Malay Muslims but Thai Muslims are indeed Thais. Malay Muslims I met and got to know in Malaysia don't care at all for camel fruit either. I also met Muslims from Indonesia who during dinners and evenings under the stars of Johnnie Black make clear they too are apart and distinct from ME Muslims. A good number of the Thai Muslims take a annual pass on Ramadan to include hard liquor. I was initially surprised by the number of young and single Muslim women who, while dressed similarly to old fashioned Catholic nuns, receive a man friend later on in the evenings.

While all Thai Muslims down there expressed to me their profound concern for the Palestinians and their cause, they simultaneously distanced themselves from ME Muslims. Even though many Thai Muslims support the people of Iran, they also don't like things nuclear, nor do they like the ayatollahs controlling democracy there.

Significantly, Thai Muslims I know haven't ever said a word about Israel, either way.

My Muslim friends invited me to mosque so I on several occasions endured observed first hand their religious services and their prayers and enjoyed their Muslim food after the services (males and females separated by a wall). My friend's only comment after my first Friday service was that those who open their arms widely during prayer are the poor ones because all the money from heaven falls through the larger space that worshipers with their hands close together preclude .

Thailand is indeed its own place with its own culture, customs, traditions, but it does have Muslims, most of which I'd say are of a very different mindset and pattern of behaviors than are the headline Muslims of the ME in particular. It's reasonable to say that other Muslims in other parts of the world can also be categorized as being more concerned about managing and succeeding in their everyday life at work, family and home life, and in recreational pursuits, than in any ideological crusade or any similar bents.

Posts removed to enable reply.

Some excellent observations & mirrors by experience of living amongst the Thai Muslim community in Pattaya.

[Publicus]

Yes but the killers were in the wrong and the protesters had something they really believed in. They all made a lot of positive progress too.

Do you think the world will ever make progress against Islamic terrorists who, via protests learn to accept that the protesters have a right to their own beliefs/religions/speech and yes even art?

Do you think that the world can make the same progress with Muslims that it has been making for women, gays and slaves?

Do you see a day when protests wake up Muslims and make them tolerant of others?

I don't. I think we (society) are going to keep killing them in the streets.

I think the day will come when we will see a much more tolerance among Muslims that what we see now. The current situation is unsustainable and given enough time and exposure to other values and ways of life, it will change.

I just don't know that it's going to happen in the short term and I just don't know how we go about getting it to move in that direction.

I am not anti-Islam. I have lived and worked with Muslims and I have relatives that are Muslim, although they are very far removed from anything fundamentalist; they don't usually eat pork, but they do enjoy a drink. I also have a relative married to a Jew and they all seem to get along at family gatherings. It's possible.

The post contributes the need for a focus on the consistently overlooked reality there are Muslims and there are Muslims and that there are Muslims, not to mention there are yet other and still more Muslims.

Early on during the several years I'd spent in a Muslim majority province (90%) in the Thai deep South, my Muslim business associate and close friend had quipped to me that the Muslims there don't like camel droppings that pass as pieces of fruit, which I said to him are called dates in English. The message and point were as clear to me as my friend had intended to be, i.e., that Thai Muslims are not Middle East Muslims; moreover, they rather look down on the intolerant Muslims of the still ancient ME.

Thai Muslims down south are closely connected to Malay Muslims but Thai Muslims are indeed Thais. Malay Muslims I met and got to know in Malaysia don't care at all for camel fruit either. I also met Muslims from Indonesia who during dinners and evenings under the stars of Johnnie Black make clear they too are apart and distinct from ME Muslims. A good number of the Thai Muslims take a annual pass on Ramadan to include hard liquor. I was initially surprised by the number of young and single Muslim women who, while dressed similarly to old fashioned Catholic nuns, receive a man friend later on in the evenings.

While all Thai Muslims down there expressed to me their profound concern for the Palestinians and their cause, they simultaneously distanced themselves from ME Muslims. Even though many Thai Muslims support the people of Iran, they also don't like things nuclear, nor do they like the ayatollahs controlling democracy there.

Significantly, Thai Muslims I know haven't ever said a word about Israel, either way.

My Muslim friends invited me to mosque so I on several occasions endured observed first hand their religious services and their prayers and enjoyed their Muslim food after the services (males and females separated by a wall). My friend's only comment after my first Friday service was that those who open their arms widely during prayer are the poor ones because all the money from heaven falls through the larger space that worshipers with their hands close together preclude .

Thailand is indeed its own place with its own culture, customs, traditions, but it does have Muslims, most of which I'd say are of a very different mindset and pattern of behaviors than are the headline Muslims of the ME in particular. It's reasonable to say that other Muslims in other parts of the world can also be categorized as being more concerned about managing and succeeding in their everyday life at work, family and home life, and in recreational pursuits, than in any ideological crusade or any similar bents.

Posts removed to enable reply.

Some excellent observations & mirrors by experience of living amongst the Thai Muslim community in Pattaya.

Pattaya?

Not in Pattani either btw.

[simple1]

Pattaya?

Not in Pattani either btw.

Don't know why you're querying Pattaya that has a large Thai Sunni community. Wasn't the point you are making that not all Muslims subscribe to fundamentalist ideology, as is repeatedly claimed on this forum.

[Publicus]

Pattaya?

Not in Pattani either btw.

Don't know why you're querying Pattaya that has a large Thai Sunni community. Wasn't the point you are making that not all Muslims subscribe to fundamentalist ideology, as is repeatedly claimed on this forum.

While I've never lived in Pattaya, I certainly do not doubt either the diversity of the Muslim population there or the fidelity of your statements about Sunni Muslims who reside in Pattaya.

Perhaps the post I queried might indicate you live or have lived in Pattaya.

I was responding to your reply to my post. Your reply to my post stated, "Some excellent observations & mirrors by experience of living amongst the Thai Muslim community in Pattaya." Perhaps you were replying to my post by stating your own personal experience in Pattaya.

Whose personal experience is mirrored of having lived in Pattaya? Yours? Not mine is all I'm saying.

(The trouble with English is that it is also used by native speakers who originate from outside of the United States )

Edited May 5, 2015 by Publicus

[Jingthing]

Wow.

Mark the date.

This might be first time I've been on the same page with Donald Trump!
Don't say you're fired ... please ...

Nobody would fight harder for free speech than me but why taunt, over and over again, in order to provoke possible death to audience. DUMB!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) May 5, 2015

The U.S. has enough problems without publicity seekers going out and openly mocking religion in order to provoke attacks and death. BE SMART

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) May 5, 2015

...

"It looks like she's actually taunting people," Trump said.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/donald-trump-garland-shooting

Edited May 5, 2015 by Jingthing

[Scott]

Let's please try to stay on the topic. I have removed one post that is little more than an attempt to bait another poster into continuing an off-topic argument.

[Muzarella]

Offend any religion in any part of the world, and violence will happens....even between the same religion.

In Israel, orthodox Jews are violent against not orthodox Jews not respecting Sabbath traditions.....

Same with Muslims and Buddhist...

Governments allowing religion haters to do this kind of public events......are just supporting hate and violence...and following its own agenda.

Freedom of speech.....sure.....but.... why to expect protection from the ones that will disagree?.

[dragonfly94]

Offend any religion in any part of the world, and violence will happens....even between the same religion.

Not really true is it, what other religion would have followers routinely rioting, flag burning and killing over a CARTOON? Too many Muslims almost want to be offended and are forever portraying themselves as victims when they are not. They must be the most insecure followers of any religion to so often resort to violence over the slightest 'offence' Don't recall Baptists, Sikhs jains or Buddhist flying planes into buildings, burning down temples of another religion and certainly not out on the slaughter over cartoons.

Edited May 6, 2015 by dragonfly94

[simple1]

Offend any religion in any part of the world, and violence will happens....even between the same religion.

Not really true is it, what other religion would have followers routinely rioting, flag burning and killing over a CARTOON? Too many Muslims almost want to be offended and are forever portraying themselves as victims when they are not. They must be the most insecure followers of any religion to so often resort to violence over the slightest 'offence' Don't recall Baptists, Sikhs jains or Buddhist flying planes into buildings, burning down temples of another religion and certainly not out on the slaughter over cartoons.

As a point of detail Sikh extremism is well documented, including destroying an Air India flight which resulted in the deaths of all 331 passengers and crew

[Ulysses G.]

She has spoken favorably of South African racists, defended Serbian war criminal Radovan Karadzic, and denied the existence of Serbian concentration camps.

I would like some actual proof of this and I don't mean an article that is full of lies and unsubstantiated exaggerations that are simply cover for the sins of radical Islam.

Surely you are just being inflamatory by stating "simply cover for the sins of radical Islam". However, article below going into a fair amount of detail

I was referring to the article that made the claims above. I thought it was a dishonest smear job and your second article confirmed it. To me, stating that Pamela Geller "defended" Radovan Karadzic would imply that she was supporting him, not that she has always vehemently denied defending him. If the first article was honest, they would would have, at the very least, mentioned that fact.

As to the assertions in the second article, I would take her word over theirs, but I am too lazy to go back and read what she said originally, before the quotes were taken out of context, and contrast and compare.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[JDGRUEN]

ISIS POSTS WARNING: “We Have 71 Trained Soldiers in 15 States” – NAMES 5 TARGETS

The terrorist group says they will murder Pamela Geller and kill anyone who shields her. The terrorists also say they have 71 fighters in 15 different states and they 23 have signed up already for missions like the failed Sunday attack in Garland, Texas.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/05/isis-posts-warning-we-have-71-trained-soldiers-in-15-states-names-5-targets/

[arunsakda]

Pam Gellar is a conspiracy pushing harpy. The event had nothing to do with free speech. This idea that people in middle America are somehow vulnerable to creeping Sharia and Islamism, depite the constitution, the ACLU, and numerous broad rulings on the 1st ammendment from the SCOTUS over years and years is laughable. I feel sorrow for those gullible dupes who fall for her ridiculous false narrative. When Hannity greets her like a hero on FOX I wish they would detail her numerous venal internet posts/ideas. The UK is smart enough to put her on a ban list as a hate monger. She wanted blood, and she got it.

[Linky]

Offend any religion in any part of the world, and violence will happens....even between the same religion.

Not really true is it, what other religion would have followers routinely rioting, flag burning and killing over a CARTOON? Too many Muslims almost want to be offended and are forever portraying themselves as victims when they are not. They must be the most insecure followers of any religion to so often resort to violence over the slightest 'offence' Don't recall Baptists, Sikhs jains or Buddhist flying planes into buildings, burning down temples of another religion and certainly not out on the slaughter over cartoons.

As a point of detail Sikh extremism is well documented, including destroying an Air India flight which resulted in the deaths of all 331 passengers and crew

There is also the burning and vandalism of mosques in Australia. The the blind cant see this because of their bigotry.

[55Jay]

Pam Gellar is a conspiracy pushing harpy. The event had nothing to do with free speech. This idea that people in middle America are somehow vulnerable to creeping Sharia and Islamism, depite the constitution, the ACLU, and numerous broad rulings on the 1st ammendment from the SCOTUS over years and years is laughable. I feel sorrow for those gullible dupes who fall for her ridiculous false narrative. When Hannity greets her like a hero on FOX I wish they would detail her numerous venal internet posts/ideas. The UK is smart enough to put her on a ban list as a hate monger. She wanted blood, and she got it.

Conspiracy indeed.

The more vocal of the 2 numpties from Arizona Tweeted that it was becoming impossible to be a muslim in america. The noose was tightening, he said. He was way down the rabbit hole and trying to appeal to some bobble head in a mosque somewhere. I would bet he never faced a bit of oppression he didn't bring on himself through his own actions and attitude. He worked himself into a froth, looked for that last minute praise from bobblehead, and went to go kill some people in the name of his religion.

That pretty much validates the unvalidated, unreasonable fears of middle America. Next thing you know, they'll be flying airliners into sky scrapers.

Edited May 6, 2015 by 55Jay

[JDGRUEN]

Offend any religion in any part of the world, and violence will happens....even between the same religion.

Not really true is it, what other religion would have followers routinely rioting, flag burning and killing over a CARTOON? Too many Muslims almost want to be offended and are forever portraying themselves as victims when they are not. They must be the most insecure followers of any religion to so often resort to violence over the slightest 'offence' Don't recall Baptists, Sikhs jains or Buddhist flying planes into buildings, burning down temples of another religion and certainly not out on the slaughter over cartoons.

As a point of detail Sikh extremism is well documented, including destroying an Air India flight which resulted in the deaths of all 331 passengers and crew

There is also the burning and vandalism of mosques in Australia. The the blind cant see this because of their bigotry.

Not much free speech in Australia - the subject cannot really be talked about - the governments have been a push over for Muslim immigration and anyone else who has landed on the shore... When there cannot be a full and open debate - even name calling - secret burnings is a way to vent the anger... I am not justifying it ... it is illegal ... but people with no outlet and a government that is working to help the other side -- this is what happens...

[simple1]

Not really true is it, what other religion would have followers routinely rioting, flag burning and killing over a CARTOON? Too many Muslims almost want to be offended and are forever portraying themselves as victims when they are not. They must be the most insecure followers of any religion to so often resort to violence over the slightest 'offence' Don't recall Baptists, Sikhs jains or Buddhist flying planes into buildings, burning down temples of another religion and certainly not out on the slaughter over cartoons.

As a point of detail Sikh extremism is well documented, including destroying an Air India flight which resulted in the deaths of all 331 passengers and crew

There is also the burning and vandalism of mosques in Australia. The the blind cant see this because of their bigotry.

Not much free speech in Australia - the subject cannot really be talked about - the governments have been a push over for Muslim immigration and anyone else who has landed on the shore... When there cannot be a full and open debate - even name calling - secret burnings is a way to vent the anger... I am not justifying it ... it is illegal ... but people with no outlet and a government that is working to help the other side -- this is what happens...

Post removed to enable reply.

Sorry, free speech is accepted as a social and political norm in Oz, bigoted and insulting language is not uncommon. What is not legally permissible in Oz is defamation (doesn't include religion), language that is racist, supports terrorism or other acts of violence.

As a bit more detail denying the Holocaust is not technically illegal in Australia, but it can fall foul of Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act.

[NeverSure]

This is an interesting discourse. We have members from countries which limit speech, and Americans who can't understand that. We have more than one Western culture.

Yet we are doing what the Americans advocate which is having an open discussion with no limits on ideas. In this thread I have called the terrorists every name in the book and called the cartoon of that poster child a cartoon of Goofy. I haven't pulled any punches.

Yet no bullets have come through my monitor and no one has shut off my opinions.

This is a thread full of a variety of strongly held opinions - a marketplace of ideas to be considered by all. This is the free speech we are advocating. If there are Muslims in this group I really don't care because they can speak their minds too.

If one group with an opinion brought guns to the table to try to wipe out another group due to statements or opinions, I believe everyone here would think that was wrong and would blame the violent ones. I have used the same rhetoric here that I would in America which is to call "The Grating One" a neanderthal, a fairy tale, a pedophile, a fake and the Koran a fairy tale.

This is no different than what is advocated in America where all ideas are presented and churned out with no one's permission and no need to be PC. Shutting down conflicting and even (to some) upsetting opinions by using violence will always be wrong.

Cheers

[NeverSure]

Freedom of speech.....sure.....but.... why to expect protection from the ones that will disagree?.

Because if the ones who disagree become violent they also become criminals and it is the government's responsibility and in the US the individual's right protect the population from criminals. No one makes those Muslims get violent. It's all on them.

These Muslims need to get over themselves if they settle in America or those good ole boy rednecks with the cowboy hats and baseball caps are going to help them get under over it.

End of.

[Publicus]

There is also the burning and vandalism of mosques in Australia. The the blind cant see this because of their bigotry.

Not much free speech in Australia - the subject cannot really be talked about - the governments have been a push over for Muslim immigration and anyone else who has landed on the shore... When there cannot be a full and open debate - even name calling - secret burnings is a way to vent the anger... I am not justifying it ... it is illegal ... but people with no outlet and a government that is working to help the other side -- this is what happens...

Post removed to enable reply.

Sorry, free speech is accepted as a social and political norm in Oz, bigoted and insulting language is not uncommon. What is not legally permissible in Oz is defamation (doesn't include religion), language that is racist, supports terrorism or other acts of violence.

As a bit more detail denying the Holocaust is not technically illegal in Australia, but it can fall foul of Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act.

free speech is accepted as a social and political norm in Oz

I'd always had that impression but very recently I have come to reconsider based on a number of posts from Australians who say there isn't any free speech there and that there should not be any in the United States either, or that the US holds itself back by having free speech in the ways that it does have it, historically and up to the present going forward.

I'd need now to hear from Australians who hold an opposite or varying point of view because, while a number of the Aussies are among the best posters around here in respect of their arguments, the Aussies who are arguing against free speech are rather unknown to me. It's certainly the case most of the Aussies I've met in Thailand are more like Ms Geller than are other native English speakers, which caused me to believe the Aussies in general must indeed support and defend speech that is solely conceived to intentionally offend.

Both the government of Oz and the Australian people are no less concerned abut ISIS or terrorism than are the Americans or the Europeans. Yet Most of us from the US see the Garland events and developments as suppressing terrorism while critics of the art exhibit and contest about religion and politics see it and the necessary killings of the two jihadists as the new jihadist recruiting tool number one. Critics such as the Aussies here also (wrongly) and cynically see the event as a cynical one in itself and one that occurred outside of freedom of speech, and, worse, that freedom of speech is the cause and pursuit of fools or dreamers.

So Aussies might consider trying to clarify which it may be, ie, either Aussies believe in and have free speech and support it elsewhere, or they don't, because the event and developments in Texas were all about freedom of speech and were a defense of the US Constitution and of the shores of the US. Freedom of speech and provocative speech do after all go hand in glove.

[Publicus]

Freedom of speech.....sure.....but.... why to expect protection from the ones that will disagree?.

Because if the ones who disagree become violent they also become criminals and it is the government's responsibility and in the US the individual's right protect the population from criminals. No one makes those Muslims get violent. It's all on them.

These Muslims need to get over themselves if they settle in America or those good ole boy rednecks with the cowboy hats and baseball caps are going to help them get under over it.

End of.

Shoulda quit while you were still out ahead

[Publicus]

This is an interesting discourse. We have members from countries which limit speech, and Americans who can't understand that. We have more than one Western culture.

Yet we are doing what the Americans advocate which is having an open discussion with no limits on ideas. In this thread I have called the terrorists every name in the book and called the cartoon of that poster child a cartoon of Goofy. I haven't pulled any punches.

Yet no bullets have come through my monitor and no one has shut off my opinions.

This is a thread full of a variety of strongly held opinions - a marketplace of ideas to be considered by all. This is the free speech we are advocating. If there are Muslims in this group I really don't care because they can speak their minds too.

If one group with an opinion brought guns to the table to try to wipe out another group due to statements or opinions, I believe everyone here would think that was wrong and would blame the violent ones. I have used the same rhetoric here that I would in America which is to call "The Grating One" a neanderthal, a fairy tale, a pedophile, a fake and the Koran a fairy tale.

This is no different than what is advocated in America where all ideas are presented and churned out with no one's permission and no need to be PC. Shutting down conflicting and even (to some) upsetting opinions by using violence will always be wrong.

Cheers

Well said if I may say so.

I've intentionally left most of the free speech arguments and First Amendment rationale to the American political right and you guyz have carried it well too.

I've made clear that I too, as do the vast majority of Americans, endorse the Garland event, its design, purpose, rationale, goals, and its outcome to date. But the American political right around here have taken rather strongly to the cause and have moved decisively and energetically to its support, Ms Geller notwithstanding. So I've handed the ball to y'all to run with and you've been running well with it so far.

So good on youse guyz because this is the only time I've seen in many years that Americans right, center, left, and far out extreme right, are being Americans in common for a change. I do however note the absence of many American posters of the center-left and of the left in general from the Garland threads, perhaps due to their preference to silently accept and support the Garland event and its related violence, and perhaps a desire on their part to let the conservatives predominate in arguing the case in this one.

I'm not a pacifist so I haven't any hesitation to squeeze of some sharpshooting of my own in this, in support of the events in Garland.

It's good to emphasize the point that the discussion at this thread, and at the connected thread topics about Garland TX, have occurred on the speech and discussion model of the First Amendment to the US Constitution whether the posters and thread participants consciously support the US Constitution or not, and most posters would indeed be conscious of the fact.

[NeverSure]

Because if the ones who disagree become violent they also become criminals and it is the government's responsibility and in the US the individual's right protect the population from criminals. No one makes those Muslims get violent. It's all on them.

These Muslims need to get over themselves if they settle in America or those good ole boy rednecks with the cowboy hats and baseball caps are going to help them get under over it.

End of.

Shoulda quit while you were still out ahead

Get a pad and pencil and write this down for future reference.

Any time that you think you are ahead of me, check your meds.

[Naam]

when blind people discuss the colours of a rainbow, wise men watch with amusement and remain silent...

[NeverSure]

There are no wise fairy tale believing Muslims.

[55Jay]

Wow.

Mark the date.

This might be first time I've been on the same page with Donald Trump!

Don't say you're fired ... please ...

Nobody would fight harder for free speech than me but why taunt, over and over again, in order to provoke possible death to audience. DUMB!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) May 5, 2015

The U.S. has enough problems without publicity seekers going out and openly mocking religion in order to provoke attacks and death. BE SMART

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) May 5, 2015

...

"It looks like she's actually taunting people," Trump said.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/donald-trump-garland-shooting

Meaningless platitude from Donald Trump. He can't even recognize a fight when he sees one.