American expats ... not much love from our own government

[Jingthing]

Just sharing this article for discussion purposes which doesn't really contain anything new but the impact of such issues continue.

Unlike most countries, the U.S. does not treat its expatriates well.

Far from being considered an element of “soft power,” as expats from other countries are seen by their governments, millions of American living abroad are instead treated like people who, somehow, have betrayed their country and, therefore, do not deserve fair treatment.

http://cuencahighlife.com/why-does-the-u-s-treat-its-expatriates-so-badly-an-expat-living-in-france-identifies-some-of-the-reasons-why/

[manarak]

Good Americans don't leave their country except to wage war !!

[MAJIC]

I think you can most definately include the Government of the the UK,and the way they treat their ex pats in with your statement! Just look at the way the British ex pats do not get any annual increase in their State Pension,the ultimate in discrimination! and they don't give a toss!

[MB1]

I think you can most definately include the Government of the the UK,and the way they treat their ex pats in with your statement! Just look at the way the British ex pats do not get any annual increase in their State Pension,the ultimate in discrimination! and they don't give a toss!

Aaaah Majic but you fail to mention that a lot of expats from the UK do get an increase, we have had this discussion on TV so many times and so many threads/topics have been and gone.....Thailand expats don't get an increase, but lets take the Phillipines for an example, UK expats get an increase there because of the reciprocal agreement made many years ago as you probably well know, so lets not hijack Jings American expat thread with the discontent felt by UK citizens living in Thailand and feeling a bit left out hey......

Edited May 21, 2015 by MB1

[MAJIC]

I think you can most definately include the Government of the the UK,and the way they treat their ex pats in with your statement! Just look at the way the British ex pats do not get any annual increase in their State Pension,the ultimate in discrimination! and they don't give a toss!

Aaaah Majic but you fail to mention that a lot of expats from the UK do get an increase, we have had this discussion on TV so many times and so many threads/topics have been and gone.....Thailand expats don't get an increase, but lets take the Phillipines for an example, UK expats get an increase there because of the reciprocal agreement made many years ago as you probably well know, so lets not hijack Jings American expat thread with the discontent felt by UK citizens living in Thailand and feeling a bit left out hey......

MB1 you have cherry picked somewhat there,if my memory serves me correct,there are in the region of 400,000 plus expats who do not get annual increases!

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-2418971/Britain-failing-expats-150-countries-freezing-state-pensions.html

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-2726619/The-great-pensions-divide-How-expats-receive-FOUR-TIMES-despite-paying-same.html

And I am sure Jingthing would not in the slightest consider me attempting to Hijack his thread.

Edited May 21, 2015 by MAJIC

[bluebluewater]

I have copied and pasted the last line of the article (I made it bold typeface):

"Bottom line: We’re left to fend for ourselves."

Personally, I would not have it any other way.

[Jingthing]

Look, this is a half baked thread and I don't have high expectations for it.

However, it is clearly intended being on the Home Country forum and as USA specific heading and article to be ONLY directed at USA expats.

Please respect that.

Cheers.

[Jay Sata]

Look, this is a half baked thread and I don't have high expectations for it.

However, it is clearly intended being on the Home Country forum and as USA specific heading and article to be ONLY directed at USA expats.

Please respect that.

Cheers.

Reading the article you quote the payoff says it all...

Bottom line: Were left to fend for ourselves.

Ironic she moans living a nice life in Paris with a few books under her belt.

What does she expect?

When you leave home you fend for yourself.

End of story

[CaptHaddock]

The article is pretty superficial. The US treatment of expats is a mixed bag. So, we can vote and we get the Social Security COLAs, but then we continue to be taxed on our worldwide earnings forever. The tax policy is particularly unfair in view of the fact that US corporations, who are also "persons" under the law, do not have to pay tax on their overseas earnings until the money is repatriated, and sometimes, not even then. So, Google pays tax at a net 2.5% rate by (falsely) attributing most of its income to overseas activity headquartered in a post box in Dublin. But then, the US system has always favored rich corporations over the rest of us.

[Berkshire]

What gets me are laws created to go after certain folks which causes extreme hardship for the rest of us. For example, this whole FATCA business. Filthy rich dudes in the US are hiding money overseas and the rest of us get caught up in the mess.

[JLCrab]

What gets me are laws created to go after certain folks which causes extreme hardship for the rest of us. For example, this whole FATCA business. Filthy rich dudes in the US are hiding money overseas and the rest of us get caught up in the mess.

If that were not the case, then why would anyone want to strive to become a filthy rich dude?

[Jingthing]

The article is pretty superficial. The US treatment of expats is a mixed bag. So, we can vote and we get the Social Security COLAs, but then we continue to be taxed on our worldwide earnings forever. The tax policy is particularly unfair in view of the fact that US corporations, who are also "persons" under the law, do not have to pay tax on their overseas earnings until the money is repatriated, and sometimes, not even then. So, Google pays tax at a net 2.5% rate by (falsely) attributing most of its income to overseas activity headquartered in a post box in Dublin. But then, the US system has always favored rich corporations over the rest of us.

Yes, I agree that the article is superficial.

But I posted it to get this party started, and again, this thread is really only for Americans.

These issues are really specifically about U.S. laws. and also less importantly American specific cultural attitudes of non-appreciation of the expat option.

Anyway ... here is something with a lot more RED MEAT for you. Please read the entire article ... can't post that, this is only a snippet.

Most people don’t understand the government’s war on U.S. expats and dual nationals, so they buy the official spin that it is just “cracking down” on “rich tax cheats.” It is doing no such thing, and it knows that it is doing no such thing.

Indeed some of its most onerous financial rules, while “cracking down” on overseas grandmas with a $30,000 retirement account, specifically and deliberately exempt billionaires with money in hedge funds and private-equity funds.

http://cuencahighlife.com/rich-tax-cheats-escape-but-expat-grannies-with-modest-retirement-accounts-are-in-the-crosshairs-of-u-s-financial-reporting-requirements/

Edited May 22, 2015 by Jingthing

[BKKSnowBird]

Most Americans just don't get it. How many times have you gotten that dear in the headlights look when you say you live abroad.

[Jingthing]

Most Americans just don't get it. How many times have you gotten that dear in the headlights look when you say you live abroad.

Yep. I've had people back home start lecturing me about how the USA is the best country in the world. Implication ... what's wrong with you to leave. I even know people who don't accept that I'm American anymore ... like I would have to apply for immigration if I want to go back.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Rhys]

giving up the citizenship.... like many have...the new wave..

[Jingthing]

giving up the citizenship.... like many have...the new wave..

Yeah but what percentage of expats actually do that? I reckon well under one percent. I would definitely not ever do that. If harassed out of being an expat I would just go back.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Rhys]

giving up the citizenship.... like many have...the new wave..

Yeah but what percentage of expats actually do that? I reckon well under one percent. I would definitely not ever do that. If harassed out of being an expat I would just go back.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

don't have a stat for you...sorry.. a few article in the trades, discussing this trend... of course it is low...however, these are the NO MORE from the USA way of IRS and all that..such as military interventions as political devices for imperialist gains... Why is it many Americans abroad, OK not all, just drop off from the radar, find the alternative life, away from a once great nation loosing it way...like so many...other nations..

Living as a expat...you live away for personal reasons....and ultimately that defines you...thus no need to return...

The Embassies play it down...because the GOs don't want to admit.. the emerging "modest" trend...

[BKKSnowBird]

I just hope they continue to let people collect disability and old age social security abroad. Some countries do not but those countries also don't tax expats like the US does.

[CaptHaddock]

The article is pretty superficial. The US treatment of expats is a mixed bag. So, we can vote and we get the Social Security COLAs, but then we continue to be taxed on our worldwide earnings forever. The tax policy is particularly unfair in view of the fact that US corporations, who are also "persons" under the law, do not have to pay tax on their overseas earnings until the money is repatriated, and sometimes, not even then. So, Google pays tax at a net 2.5% rate by (falsely) attributing most of its income to overseas activity headquartered in a post box in Dublin. But then, the US system has always favored rich corporations over the rest of us.

Yes, I agree that the article is superficial.

But I posted it to get this party started, and again, this thread is really only for Americans.

These issues are really specifically about U.S. laws. and also less importantly American specific cultural attitudes of non-appreciation of the expat option.

Anyway ... here is something with a lot more RED MEAT for you. Please read the entire article ... can't post that, this is only a snippet.

Most people don’t understand the government’s war on U.S. expats and dual nationals, so they buy the official spin that it is just “cracking down” on “rich tax cheats.” It is doing no such thing, and it knows that it is doing no such thing.

Indeed some of its most onerous financial rules, while “cracking down” on overseas grandmas with a $30,000 retirement account, specifically and deliberately exempt billionaires with money in hedge funds and private-equity funds.

http://cuencahighlife.com/rich-tax-cheats-escape-but-expat-grannies-with-modest-retirement-accounts-are-in-the-crosshairs-of-u-s-financial-reporting-requirements/

That's not a good article either. Very vehement, but does not make the case that the government is deliberately targeting expats. It's not surprising that the rich get better treatment, but that's not particular to expats. The hedge fund industry has written the rules for its own benefit in a number of ways including the "carried interest" provision in the tax code that allows their income to be taxed at the lower capital gains rate of 15%. Boris Johnson is hardly a typical American expat. And while the number of Americans renouncing citizenship has increased, it remains insignificant.

[zeichen]

I find this article funny because most people I meet have always said that they are envious how well the US embassies take care of its citizens. People often said if there is a problem that they would go to the US consulate before their own.

[Berkshire]

What gets me are laws created to go after certain folks which causes extreme hardship for the rest of us. For example, this whole FATCA business. Filthy rich dudes in the US are hiding money overseas and the rest of us get caught up in the mess.

If that were not the case, then why would anyone want to strive to become a filthy rich dude?

Yes, I'm sure that's the motivation, to become filthy rich enough to have to hide your money overseas. I wonder if Bill and Warren do that?

[CaptHaddock]

What gets me are laws created to go after certain folks which causes extreme hardship for the rest of us. For example, this whole FATCA business. Filthy rich dudes in the US are hiding money overseas and the rest of us get caught up in the mess.

If that were not the case, then why would anyone want to strive to become a filthy rich dude?

Yes, I'm sure that's the motivation, to become filthy rich enough to have to hide your money overseas. I wonder if Bill and Warren do that?

Rich Americans certainly do commit tax evasion by hiding assets abroad. UBS Bank in Switzerland agreed to pay $780 million in penalties for aiding American clients to evade taxes on $20 billion of assets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UBS_tax_evasion_controversy

And that is just one bank in just one jurisdiction. Doesn't include Luxembourg, Singapore, the Cayman Islands or all of the other favorite hidey holes of the rich.

And these opportunities to evade taxes are only available to the rich. It's too bad that we are inconvenienced in the process, but I fully support collecting all the taxes due from the rich.

Edited May 23, 2015 by CaptHaddock

[JLCrab]

What gets me are laws created to go after certain folks which causes extreme hardship for the rest of us. For example, this whole FATCA business. Filthy rich dudes in the US are hiding money overseas and the rest of us get caught up in the mess.

If that were not the case, then why would anyone want to strive to become a filthy rich dude?

Yes, I'm sure that's the motivation, to become filthy rich enough to have to hide your money overseas. I wonder if Bill and Warren do that?

[GinBoy2]

I really don't think it's just a US thing. Most countries to some extent abandon their citizens when the leave the country. I do however gripe at the IRS intruding into my overseas affairs

[GinBoy2]

On the topic of the graphic in the article. As much as I would like to believe it's not reality, my gut tells me that lot outside of the coastal fringes actually see that as reality!

[EmptyHead]

Don't be such a party pooper, JT.

[NeverSure]

For a lot of reasons, I feel lucky to be an American. I feel I won the birth lottery when I visit any third world country.

Cheers

Edited May 25, 2015 by NeverSure

[JimGant]

What a load of crap -- both articles and their links. A few cherry picks:

"Taxwise, the US situation is almost unique : except Russia, the USA is the only country in the world which considers double taxation as unavoidable."

I guess the author never heard of the Tax Treaties the US has with the first world countries, and many of the second world countries. These treaties prevent double taxation, either by declaring certain income taxable only in one country (e.g., US Government pensions, taxable only in the US, at least per Thai-US Treaty). Or by providing for a tax credit when both countries can tax the same income. Bottom line: Double taxation is certainly avoidable.

"From July 2014, for all US citizens living in France, the US Foreign Assets Tax Compliance Act requires all US citizens to declare all their bank accounts and financial assets worldwide and of course all their income."

Oh my. Form 8938 (the FATCA form applicable to individual tax payers) only has to be filed with your tax return if, as an expat, certain foreign financial assets exceed $200,000 at the end of the tax year ($400,000 if married). These assets don't even include your probable number one asset -- your home (and your rental homes). How many reading this are affected? (I thought so.) And threshold figures show Uncle Sam doesn't have an agenda for the expat -- he's after the non-expat US person, whose de minimis thresholds are considerably lower ($50,000/$100,000). The UBS case was not about expats hiding money -- but about live-at-home US folks.

"As an American expat, you can be arrested, thrown in jail and bankrupted by Uncle Sam for failing to disclose a $15,000 checking account on which you have paid all the taxes owed."

This has been debunked on several threads here on TV. If you've paid your taxes on the interest earned on that $15,000 checking account, there is absolutely no penalty for failure to file a FBAR. http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/05/12/irs-gives-big-break-to-some-offshore-account-holders/

"Indeed some of its most onerous financial rules, while “cracking down” on overseas grandmas with a $30,000 retirement account...."

What, no example of any "onerous financial rules" on Granny? Or at least examples that would hold water. Oh, yeah, the onerous requirement to pay taxes on all worldwide income.

Yeah, we Yankee expats have to pay our US taxes, dime for dime as if we still lived in the States. And I guess some 'old world' expats get off not paying taxes either at home nor in Thailand -- since Thailand doesn't have the means to collect taxes they're otherwise entitled to under Tax Treaty. I'd kinda like to see the latter change someday, to pay for the services we receive here. For US types, with a credit for Thai taxes, nothing would change in total taxes paid. For some EU expats, however ...... well, I think it's only fair you pay taxes somewhere. (And maybe that's just pure US taxpayer sour grapes.)

As far as US expats being treated unfairly by their government -- there certainly isn't anything in these articles that make the case.

[JakeSully]

I have to say I personally like being American a lot..

I don't have to run through hoops to get visas. I have a friend from Nepal who wanted to get a visa to Thailand. The hoops he has to run through are:

1. Current passport, valid re-entry permit, or travel document for travel to Thailand.
2. Three completed and signed application forms
3. 3 Passport-size photographs. (Photographs must have a light color background with a full-face view without wearing a hat or dark glasses and taken within 6 months.)
4. If submitting applications in person, fees are payable by cash or money order. If submitting application by mail, fees are payable by money order to "The Royal Thai Consulate-General" only.
5. Employment verification or a guarantor's letter from a U.S. resident
6. A copy of confirmed round-trip tickets and itinerary
7. A copy of permanent resident alien card
8. A copy of proof of finances, such as a bank statement showing personal savings or checking accounts.
9. A personal bio-data of applicant(s) since leaving country of birth or refugee camp.

10.A copy of confirmed hotel reservations or a letter from a host in Thailand. (Name and Address)

11.Reference person and address in Thailand

12.Reference person and address the next country after Thailand or your native country

Please note:

• Consular officers reserve the right to ask for additional documents as deemed necessary.
• In the absence of a required document, a letter indicating the unavailability of such document must be provided.
• The applicant must sign on each page of the copy.

Where as for me:

1. One application form
2. Two passport-size photographs (2x2 inches)
3. Passport (valid for at least the next 6 months)
4. Visa fee

Not only that the United States has fraud protection.. a few times in Thailand I ran into scams and got my money back from my US credit card. This is in stark contrast to the Thai banks saying Som Nom Na.

Do I wish the US was better? Sure but I would not give up American citizenship for another one..

Edited May 26, 2015 by JakeSully

[gk10002000]

Most Americans just don't get it. How many times have you gotten that dear in the headlights look when you say you live abroad.

I absolutely agree. The USA and most if not all of the states don't handle it well. Just try keeping a state as your residence while living abroad. Try getting auto insurance while living abroad if not "maintaining" a US presence properly. Try keeping a State issued driver's license, etc. Taxes, and Ocamacare exemption, and USA address issues, etc. All a big huge pain in the arse, and a lot because of suspected criminal activities done by others.