Koi - 2015

[KBTexas]

Ok, I saw the posts here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/254906-koi-carp/page-2 from 2009, but was looking for more updated information.

Sorry for the length of this post, but am trying to give information up front...

We recently rebuilt a koi pond, and the fish are not doing well. We had 4 koi around 50cm long (~1000 gal pond new vs. the old 500 gal) and when we moved them back into the pond, one died pretty quickly, and two are sick. One seems to be doing fine. I have tried to find good water quality kits here, but had to order one internationally, and unfortunately, they have not arrived yet. Neither has the refractometer to measure salinity, so I am guessing at the water quality until the kit arrives. PH is very good at 7.6, water temp is a little high at around 28c (83f) aeration is excellent with 6 large airstones blowing enough to floom, and filtration is also good, with a 10" drop from the outlet to the water for even more O2.

The fish were held by the local fish project while we built the pond, which unfortunately I was not in country to supervise. Before bringing the fish back, they salted the water, but did not tell my wife what level they salted to. I assume .3%. They also tested the water for nitrites, nitrates, ammonia and KH and all were good. Shortly after the fish arrived back at the new pond, one got sick and died within days. The others were exhibiting flashing and jumping. Since I do not have a microscope, and catching the fish stresses them to no end, I figured the issue was probably flukes, so treated with prazi. This seemed to help a bit, but did not entirely solve the flashing problem. Four days after the prazi treatment, I did a potassium permanganate treatment at 2%. It took two days to have the fish in the solution for 8 hours total, so the pond water was actually pretty clean of gunk.

Now, here is weird thing number 1, that I can find no info on: My largest koi, who has always been a black/silver color, changed colors to a light gray! It's reds also appear washed out. The other two fish exhibited no signs of color change! I've had this koi for 3.5 years, so there is no way it was a superficial color, and I can find nothing useful on koi changing colors due to stress or treatment.

Until the fish got sick, I did not pay a lot of attention to the fish or the water, just feeding them good food and changing the water a little at a time. No issues in 3.5 years in a MUCH shallower, smaller pond, until that pond cracked and started leaking water out and mud in. Once the fish got sick, I've been reading up on proper care, and admit we did not even get close. No water tests or much thought for 3.5 years. Now I understand a bit more about what is involved, but have ordered the water test kit and refractometer internationally, but they have not arrived yet.

So, my question to those of you who've kept koi longer than I, and presumably have a lot more experience with the issues, is where do you get supplies locally (meaning in Thailand)? I live in Udon Thani, and there is one exotic fish store here, but the lady that runs it think all farang are millionaires and charges 3 times what you can buy for outside her shop. I prefer to not buy anything from her if I can help it. I have tried many different searches for medicated koi food (Similar to Medi_Koi or Blue Ridge in the US) but can find nothing here that is equivalent. Does anyone have contact info for someone selling decent quality medicated food? I have two koi who have stopped eating and lay on the bottom of the pond, and I feel if I do not get some antibiotics into them soon it may be to late. One has not eaten for 4 days, and one for 2 days. The third koi continues to eat pretty much normally.

Any contacts for supplies, medicated food, testing kits or the like within Thailand would be very much appreciated. Any suggestions for treating the fish without medicated food also would be appreciated.

Regards,

KB

Edited May 25, 2015 by KBTexas

[WhoWhenWhyWhat]

You know what KB, try to locate the guy who maintains the Koi's at the Chinese Temple near Nong Bua Park.

The Koi's there are one of their main features thus the guy who's in-charge would definitely knows a thing or two.

Cheers

Edited June 6, 2015 by WhoWhenWhyWhat

[cooked]

I thought that loss of colour occurs when the water is murky and thus sunlight is not getting to the fish. We Have a relatively deep pond, meaning that the water at the bottom is 'cool'. We will also occasionally simply change the water when problems appear, our tap water seems to be ok for them.

[canuckamuck]

In many types of fish, washing out of color is a sign of stress. Can't confirm for koi, but I suspect it is true for them as well.

[ignis]

Koi are sensitive to water temperature change, air change, weather change..

If you have not got, then buy FORMALIN, Fish anti-biotic.... I put some in one of the filter tanks every 2 weeks, have around 100 Koi, some are over 10 years old.

buying or moving Koi always put into a holding pond for 7 days, DO NOT feed for 5 days, changing the water every day, adding BIO-KNOCK...

Colour change can be a few things, yes stress is one, weather, change of food...... have tried many types, the best I find is TENRYU [cost about 1,000 baht per month, 3x 12KG sacks every 2 months]

There is no need for water testing kits, check the Koi a few times a day, they will tell you if there is something wrong..

Form the Pharmacy NEWTAMOX 500 MG [open capsules and pour into filter] is good, if more than 2 look not well, my pond size will add 20 x 500MG capsules, then change 90% of the water after 48 hours....... maybe use 2x year normal is because of sudden change of weather......... if just 1 or 2 look off, will take them out and put into a holding tank

[KBTexas]

Thanks for the replies guys. I am still fighting this problem. I have done about a 30 to 40% water change, in addition to upping the salt levels to .533% (5.33 ppt). They have been in that salt level for 4 days now, with little to show for it as they are still flashing quite a bit. I have looked at the fish often, in all light conditions, and see no signs of flukes, anchor worms or fish lice, and after treatment with prazi twice and potassium permanganate for 8 hours, I would expect none. If there is Ick, there is not much of it. They are definitely NOT like most fish you see with Ick, covered in white spots like white chicken pox.

The refractometer and water test kit finally arrived. All signs are that the water is okay. Ammonia is not zero, but is under .2. Nitrite is .25. Nitrate is 20, a little high, but supposedly not in the danger zone. KH and GH are in the good range. I have a working hypothesis that the filter pretty much died while we were building the new pond, so it is now just getting back to what it should be, and ammonia and nitrite levels should fall over the coming weeks. I have bought some lotus to put into the pond when I remove the salt to help with the nitrate. I also started the fish on Enro Gold (Enrofloxacin), mixed with chitosin syrup and a sinking fish food for the last 4 days. It appears all the fish are eating it.

Other than this, I am not sure there is much more I can do. I will leave them in the salted water for another week, then do five 20% water changes over the next week to remove the salt. I will continue to feed them the medicated food for another 10 days. I guess it is up to nature at this point, as I am out of ideas.

I am adding a couple of photos of the color change I spoke of. The first picture is a few months ago and the second is the same fish this week. And yes, they are indeed the same fish! I looked online quite a bit, but could find nothing on this dramatic of a change. I did find a dealer on Line where I was able to purchase some of the things I needed.

If anyone has any ideas, I would appreciate hearing them.

KB

[ignis]

I tend to put my Koi in holding tanks if a bit sick, and only when 100% better put back into the main pond

[KBTexas]

I tend to put my Koi in holding tanks if a bit sick, and only when 100% better put back into the main pond

Thanks ignis. Yes, I realize that isolation tanks are a good thing, but not practical in my situation. My koi are around 50cm in length, so a small tub similar to your top photo (beautiful koi BTW) will not work for holding a fish for days or longer. If I had isolated the one I think is sickest at the first sign of trouble, it would be over two weeks already. I have no way to hold a larger fish for this long, so any suggestions, short of building yet another pond, would be appreciated.

What do you use for an isolation tank?

KB

Edited June 7, 2015 by KBTexas

[ignis]

I tend to put my Koi in holding tanks if a bit sick, and only when 100% better put back into the main pond

Thanks ignis. Yes, I realize that isolation tanks are a good thing, but not practical in my situation. My koi are around 50cm in length, so a small tub similar to your top photo (beautiful koi BTW) will not work for holding a fish for days or longer. If I had isolated the one I think is sickest at the first sign of trouble, it would be over two weeks already. I have no way to hold a larger fish for this long, so any suggestions, short of building yet another pond, would be appreciated.

What do you use for an isolation tank?

KB

I have 2 of the Fibreglass 2m x 1m tanks, + a 1.5m round + never used yet a 2m kids type pond..

All have there own air pumps + a single tank filter system and made with PVC tube + mesh covers..

Edit: The 2 Fibreglass 2m x 1m tanks bought many years ago, cost 350 baht each.... many places around were I live by the side of the road that sell/make all types of tanks for Fish and sizes, all shapes + sizes of drums and containers. boats etc

Edited June 7, 2015 by ignis

[worgeordie]

Hi KBTexas, When looking to solve problems with fish you have to

be a bit of a detective and analyze what is causing the fish to die.

The first thing that jumps out is,the fish were doing well in the old

pond, you build new pond and the start dying,so,how was the pond

made,liner,concrete,tiled ?,if concrete was it sealed with a suitable

paint?, lots of fish perish due to new tank (pond) syndrome,not cycling

the pond first ,with one or two fish,and at same time not over feeding,

your fish most likely died through a build up of Ammonium ,or the

pond itself,if it was not sealed.

The secret to successful fish-keeping is balance,slowly cycle the

system,add fish one at a time,also don't add to many fish,also

do not over feed the fish,once the system is cycled there should

be no need to add chemicals,Antibiotics, large scale Aquaculture

use Chemicals and Antibiotics because there systems are grossly

overstocked,

If you have good filtration,aeration,correct stocking levels,don't over feed,

you should have no problems and can enjoy the fish,Koi are really tough

,all i have is good filtration,not overstocked,and UV filter,and in last

5+ years have never had to use a test kit of any kind,or introduced any

chemicals or antibiotics,and the fish are doing great, growing well,and

the water is crystal clear,less is sometimes better.

I feed Koi pellets,corn (buy frozen at Makro), and sometimes,leftover

rice,

regards Worgeordie

[UKJASE]

Hi KBTexas, When looking to solve problems with fish you have to

be a bit of a detective and analyze what is causing the fish to die.

The first thing that jumps out is,the fish were doing well in the old

pond, you build new pond and the start dying,so,how was the pond

made,liner,concrete,tiled ?,if concrete was it sealed with a suitable

paint?, lots of fish perish due to new tank (pond) syndrome,not cycling

the pond first ,with one or two fish,and at same time not over feeding,

your fish most likely died through a build up of Ammonium ,or the

pond itself,if it was not sealed.

The secret to successful fish-keeping is balance,slowly cycle the

system,add fish one at a time,also don't add to many fish,also

do not over feed the fish,once the system is cycled there should

be no need to add chemicals,Antibiotics, large scale Aquaculture

use Chemicals and Antibiotics because there systems are grossly

overstocked,

If you have good filtration,aeration,correct stocking levels,don't over feed,

you should have no problems and can enjoy the fish,Koi are really tough

,all i have is good filtration,not overstocked,and UV filter,and in last

5+ years have never had to use a test kit of any kind,or introduced any

chemicals or antibiotics,and the fish are doing great, growing well,and

the water is crystal clear,less is sometimes better.

I feed Koi pellets,corn (buy frozen at Makro), and sometimes,leftover

rice,

regards Worgeordie

you are in Hua Hin aren't you WorGeordie?

can i ask you where you get your koi pond supplies, plus your koi carp please mate? we have just built a pond and need to stock it up.

Good luck with your fish KBtexas. i hope they are feeling better now?

[Langsuan Man]

There is a professional Koi operation in Hua Hin. They were going to get a contract with a new condo complex in Bang Sare but that evidently fell through since I have not heard from them in over a year

http://www.koi-family.co.th/

be aware that the web site has one of those annoying sound clips when you go to it, so lower your computer volume

[worgeordie]

Hi KBTexas, When looking to solve problems with fish you have to

be a bit of a detective and analyze what is causing the fish to die.

The first thing that jumps out is,the fish were doing well in the old

pond, you build new pond and the start dying,so,how was the pond

made,liner,concrete,tiled ?,if concrete was it sealed with a suitable

paint?, lots of fish perish due to new tank (pond) syndrome,not cycling

the pond first ,with one or two fish,and at same time not over feeding,

your fish most likely died through a build up of Ammonium ,or the

pond itself,if it was not sealed.

The secret to successful fish-keeping is balance,slowly cycle the

system,add fish one at a time,also don't add to many fish,also

do not over feed the fish,once the system is cycled there should

be no need to add chemicals,Antibiotics, large scale Aquaculture

use Chemicals and Antibiotics because there systems are grossly

overstocked,

If you have good filtration,aeration,correct stocking levels,don't over feed,

you should have no problems and can enjoy the fish,Koi are really tough

,all i have is good filtration,not overstocked,and UV filter,and in last

5+ years have never had to use a test kit of any kind,or introduced any

chemicals or antibiotics,and the fish are doing great, growing well,and

the water is crystal clear,less is sometimes better.

I feed Koi pellets,corn (buy frozen at Makro), and sometimes,leftover

rice,

regards Worgeordie

you are in Hua Hin aren't you WorGeordie?

can i ask you where you get your koi pond supplies, plus your koi carp please mate? we have just built a pond and need to stock it up.

Good luck with your fish KBtexas. i hope they are feeling better now?

Hi UKJASe, No I am n Chiang Mai,

regards Worgeordie

[KBTexas]

Update:

I am not sure if it was the salt at 5.5 ppt for 14 days, the antibiotics and vitamins for 14 days, the filter finally got up to speed, or the fish just got over whatever was bothering them, but all three fish survived and are back to normal. The black koi shows no signs of changing back to black, so I guess it is now a gray koi.

I did finally receive the water test kit in the mail, and the water checked out ok. Ammonia was not zero, but also was not the next tick on the chart, so should have been ok. Nitrite was in the safe range, and nitrate was a little high, but still in the safe range. After all the treatments when the fish returned to normal, I did a 100% water change, which lowered the levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to zero. So we should be okay going forward. I am adding some lotus to the pond to help with nitrite and nitrate, just to be sure.

To answer some of the questions: The pond was made of concrete, dried completely, then sealed with a fish safe sealer that was also dried completely. I asked three different people about the sealer, and was assured it was fish safe by all three, with one pointing to something written in Thai on the bag, which I assumed said fish safe.

The fish were held in a natural water pond at the local government fish office, and honestly I think this is where the problems arose. They were not experienced with koi, and probably do little in the way of cleaning the water of parasites or the like. Add that the pond was new and perhaps the filter was not up to speed yet, and when they were reintroduced to my pond, the problem cascaded. I do believe that there were multiple problems. Perhaps flukes, perhaps some bacterial infection and perhaps just a bit of shock that allowed them to be attacked. The combination of prazi and pp seemed to take care of the flukes and external things, and the antibiotics, salt and vitamins perhaps helped the internal things.

In any event, it would appear they are back to normal, so hopefully they will continue to be happy into the future. It's time to get about 3 more smaller ones to put in with the large ones. Hopefully this will not present further problems. (yes, I will isolate them first)

Thanks for all the replies.

KB

[kelboy]

SO

without further ? the problem is the cement END of story.

[KBTexas]

SO

without further ? the problem is the cement END of story.

I am not sure how you arrived at that conclusion kelboy.

I am a retired engineer, and had never paid much attention to the fish or pond up until this crisis. After studying the issues, i have arrived at what I consider a reasonable hypothesis. I am more of the mind that it was a multiple problem along these lines of reasoning.

1) The filter had died while the new pond was being built. When it was brought back up, it worked as a filter, but very little nitrification was going on. Add a fairly high water temp (almost 29C) and it was not a good environment for the fish, since ammonia is much more toxic at higher temps. While ammonia levels were never really high, it does not take much at all at those temps, and the level was not zero.

2) The koi were housed in a pond with other species of fish while the new pond was being built. This exposed them to parasites and bacteria not in the original pond, and the stress of moving and a new environment increased their susceptibility to infection. Salt, Prazi and potassium permanganate got rid of the external parasites, and the antibiotic and vitamins helped flush the internal bacteria I think.

To address your point: the pond was built and allowed to dry completely. It was then coated with a waterproof cement that I was assured was fish safe, and this was allowed to dry completely. Water was added, and a day later was drained. More water was added, and a day later it was drained. Then water was added, the filter was turned on, and the pond was allowed to sit for 3 days before the fish were returned. I do not see how the concrete would be the problem, since the fish are still in the same pond, and they seem to have fully recovered.

The biggest issue still remaining in my mind is why and how my black koi turned into a gray koi, and shows no signs of returning to black.

KB

Caveat: I know little about koi, or fish in general, except what I've read and experienced with my own pond. I may be totally off base here, but the above is the only thing that really makes any sense with the observed issues.

Edited July 26, 2015 by KBTexas