Buying Into The Cow Business

[UKJASE]

hey guys, my first post on this forum, so please go easy on me.

my mate wants to buys 5 cows, and put them on his mrs' land in the north.

he says he will pay for the feed, and the family will take care of the cows and they will breed them and sell off the young. Says he will make some money through this investment.

he told me the cows are 50,000 B each.

i have some concerns, as he is my mate, and wanted to know if you guys could help me with the following :-

1 - has his idea got potential (my wife says her dad swears there is no money in cattle)?

2 - how much do cows go for normally - i know this is a very broad question, but say 5 of your average, looking quite healthy, recently washed, cows?

3 - what precautions can he take to stop the family in the north selling / gambling away his investment? when livestock is traded, is there any sort of register as to who owns what, or could the cattle be easily sold without his knowledge?

any advice would be great guys....... he has very little agricultural background by the way

[NeverSure]

OK. I was raised on a 4,000 acre (10,000 rai) wheat and cattle ranch in the western US. It's still in my family.

I would say that no one should ever invest in a business he knows nothing about.

I would say that it would be rare to have success as an absentee investor anywhere in a small operation with no controls.

I would never buy cows. I would buy calves that are well weaned from a breed that produces good beef. Some breeds such as milk cow breeds don't produce really good beef and are usually ground up and sold to places like McDonald's. There's nothing wrong with the meat, it just won't be tender and juicy as a steak or roast.

There is so much to know about veterinarian care (ranchers eventually become their own vets by osmosis) and feeding, finishing, butchering, aging etc. that I don't think there is any way for these relatives to grow good beef. I have never seen good beef in LOS unless it came from Australia where they know how to raise good beef. I've never seen any from Canada or the US where they also know how to raise good beef. Maybe there is some I haven't seen.

Raising beef is a career. People grow up with it and/or get college degrees in agriculture. I thought about starting a cattle operation in Thailand simply because I don't see good beef, but I can't own the land and leasing is prohibitive in areas I would want to be. That includes not trusting the legal system after investing in the improvements needed on the land.

I could write a book but the answer would still be "no".

[jaapfries]

Seldom have I read a more sensible, intelligent, subject-focused & intelligent analysis of a specific subject ! ! !

In fact; it almost reads like a passage straight from one of my favorite author's hands: great Mr. Louis Dearborne L'Amour ! ! !

I hope the guy who asked for advice (about setting-up cattle-raising business in Thailand) pay close attention to what you so eloquently put down here !

BTW: if you're NOT a writer; your are robbing this world of some serious talent . . . . 555

Dutch Cowboy at Heart

[shirtless]

He is getting ripped off dont listen to family as they will be making a huge commission on the buy tell him to check the market.

[pigeonjake]

kick start is our cattle man on here, he will be able to tell you the price,

but i agree with my mate neversure,,

i wouldnt do anything like that if i wasnt about myself to keep an eye on things,

you will meet many thais who say, they know how to keep animals, well believe me, the work keep is right,

keep and taking proper care is a tottaly different game,

some will say yes ive kept cattle,pigs, chickens, yes they might of done for a couple of weeks,

taking care of livestock is a full time game, every day of the week, every week of the year,

tell your mate not to do it,,

over to kickstart...lol

[ezzra]

I have couple of cows at home, the two legged kind.. mooching and munching all day...

you can have them to start your business with...

[technologybytes]

I decline any offers to invest in farming in Thailand. I have heard lots of stories in the past of guys who financed pigs, cows, rubber trees, teak trees, corn etc etc and all sorts of farming. Usually the best case scenario is you loose all your money, the worst case scenario is that you continue to finance it by paying for maintenance and feed etc and then loose all your money.

Not saying that will happen to you, just that it's happened to an awful lot of guys before you.

Such investment by foreigners is to the best of my knowledge illegal in Thailand anyway.

[GOLDBUGGY]

I am not a Cattle Rancher but what I can tell you is that I bought a Whole Steer here last year for about 25,000 Baht, which included the Head and Hide. So I can't see you making a profit when you buy at 50,000 Baht.

We did our own butchering, which I am sure brought the price down, but we had no cool place to hang it for a week, which tenderizes it. So although it tasted okay, it was rather tough to chew. But better when it sat in the refrigerator for a week.

I have never have got good beef in Thailand and I have been here for years. Australian Imported Beef is a little better, but nothing I would write home to my mom about. The best is Canadian or American Beef, which you can get here in a 5 Star Hotel in Bangkok. But then you also pay 5 Star Prices for it to.

[maidee]

what is they start getting sick ... i'm sure some of you had a sick buffalo / cow in the family

[khwaibah]

"he told me the cows are 50,000 B each." There is a sucker born every minute. In my neck of the woods a cow (not a buffalo) goes for 20,000 baht.

[kerrysum]

I would agree with so many posts, on this subject. I have a nephew that raises cattle in Mukdahan, Thailand. He bought the prime long-horn cattle for breeding, and at that time, he was paying, 25,000 baht, but that was for a mature male/female.... I always admired this young man, never saw him get involved in drama in the village, and he was quite honest, as was his wife and family. He just wanted to make it on his own and has... But I did find, that he knew his shit about cattle, and had all of the books. I truly respected him for this... So maybe if they are asking 50,000, that could be from birth to market... Always found that Thailand has been funny about this,

one just has to ask the pertinent questions....

Just my thoughts from past experience....

Good luck, and I think you need some real honesty here....

[BHW]

You'll learn the hard way, like me, have 5 cows 3 I bought for overs, the other 2 were born on the farm, the last one I bought for 37000 THB on the advice of a family friend, on handing over the 37000 to the vendor he immediately peeled of 5000 & gave it to the family friend, so I would say paid at least 8000 overs, I don't mind him getting some commission but not 5000.

Besides this it is a full time job so helps keep me occupied, do keep involved or it will cost your friend more, the best advice is from an experienced vet, called the cow doctor here, or somebody with a big heard doing it professionaly, you'll never get the same story twice from the locals.

[NeverSure]

I am not a Cattle Rancher but what I can tell you is that I bought a Whole Steer here last year for about 25,000 Baht, which included the Head and Hide. So I can't see you making a profit when you buy at 50,000 Baht.

We did our own butchering, which I am sure brought the price down, but we had no cool place to hang it for a week, which tenderizes it. So although it tasted okay, it was rather tough to chew. But better when it sat in the refrigerator for a week.

I have never have got good beef in Thailand and I have been here for years. Australian Imported Beef is a little better, but nothing I would write home to my mom about. The best is Canadian or American Beef, which you can get here in a 5 Star Hotel in Bangkok. But then you also pay 5 Star Prices for it to.

"We did our own butchering, which I am sure brought the price down, but we had no cool place to hang it for a week, which tenderizes it. So although it tasted okay, it was rather tough to chew. But better when it sat in the refrigerator for a week."

In case you do that again, the reason it was better after being in the refrigerator for a week is twofold. The first is that it had time for rigor mortis to pass and the second is that natural enzymes had time to break down the tissues in the meat. In a good beef operation that meat would hang in a cooler just above freezing for close to three weeks to fully tenderize and only then be cut, wrapped and sold. It must be cleaned, skinned and washed first or that will give taste and odors. What is hanging is just the part to be butchered and eaten.

One week minimum and every day up to three weeks is better. If it has to be cut and wrapped and refrigerated right away due to space that's better than nothing as long as it gets time before it is eaten or frozen.

Cheers

[ba ba]

no,no,no andagain no,no,no

[Gandtee]

When I read the headline I thought that you were getting married!

[Robert24]

to answer your questions:

1) has potential if you run it properly like a business.

2) 50,000 sounds like too much at first glance. They are around 25,000 depending on quality, specie etc.

3) no register.

I recommend only to do this if your friend can spend decent time looking into this himself. 5 cows sounds like very small. I would start of at least with 20+ cows and then grow it from there. But it's up to your friend to make a proper business case, looking into all costs, price for cows, revenues from when selling cows, etc.

[steve73]

I kept a few cows a couple of years back, just for something to do to keep busy..

We were breeding a few quality calves (Lowline Angus, or Charolais, by AI) from normal thai cows.. selling on the young males weaned at 6 months, or keeping the females as "improved" breeding stock. Over a 4 year period we covered all direct costs (although we did supplement silage feed with freely available locally cut grass/rice straw and chopped banana "trees"), and even made a slight profit of around 10,000 per animal per year... (which probably didn't cover the cost of fuel used in collecting the grass and banana....) but they were really just family pets.

Met some Thai friends who operated a small fatstock farm next to their house, fattening 10-12 quality males at a time from around 6-12 months to 18-24 months for sale into meat product using high protien feeds.. Overall this was a more profitable way to go - their first year sales covered capital cost of the pens, as well as all stock & feed costs (roughly 50/25/25%). 2nd year they cleared around 1/2million profit (excluding their own labour), but by the third year the premium for the quality product had diminished as more small farmers were operating similar farms... but providing they don't scrimp on the expensive high protien feeds, they can still turn a 25-30% profit on the cost of the stock and feed... In summary - high cost to set-up, with relatively high on going cost, and unless you're big enough to make it worthwhile employing others, you're tied 365 days per year.

25-50,000 is about right for a young proven cow (depending on breed & if in calf)... Quality males (Angus, etc) were going to market for 2-400 bt/kilo live weight when I was invloved, so a 500kg beast could sell for around 1-200k, and prime bulls would be 3-4 times that.

[NeverSure]

In Australia, Canada and the US raising cattle is a way to harvest grass that machinery can't get to. Cattle can graze on steep ground and rocky ground and in forest openings. The initial decision to raise them is usually a result of having such land.

From the time they are weaned until one year old they can live well on grass. Then there is a roundup to bring them all in and pen them up. For the next three months they are fed grain such as corn and also alfalfa hay. This last three months gets them out of shape to tenderize the meat, and gives them a good and high calorie diet to finish them with fat-marbled and tender meat. Much of the flavor is in the fat. These are neutered males - steers.

At about 15 months they are ready to butcher or of course sell for butchering. A breed that's popular for beef will be wonderful meat if done properly all the way.

It wouldn't pay to take prime farm land and raise beef. Some other crops are more valuable per rai. It does pay to have some good farmland to grow the final feed for them but it still pays to buy it for the last three months if you first have the grazing land.

[1FinickyOne]

Not a good idea - but if your friend goes ahead with it and decides to have partners, then he should also make provisions in the deal ofr how monies will be distributed if there are not profits… too often people just say, sure, we will split the profits… forgetting a potential down side.

Too many "ifs" here -

ps - they don't go for any more or less if you wash them...

[khwaibah]

For the OP

"1 - has his idea got potential (my wife says her dad swears there is no money in cattle)?"

Listen to your wife dad.

[AlQaholic]

what is they start getting sick ... i'm sure some of you had a sick buffalo / cow in the family

Yes OP will be subjected to the "Sick Buffalo" syndrome, eventually it will also die and must be replaced with a new healthy one

[kwonitoy]

five adult cows for 50,000 would be closer to the going rate for your run of the mill roadside cows.

Pay for feed??? Cows eat grass on the side of the road or rice paddies

I would advise against it just on those two observations

[stoli]

I invested in the US in a business that I knew nothing about. Now I live in Pattaya. That should tell you enough.....

[Mudcrab]

Will be interesting to see 5 cows breed. Might have to have a chat to your mate about the birds and the bees.

[stephenterry]

I have some concerns, as he is my mate, and wanted to know if you guys could help me with the following :-

1 - has his idea got potential (my wife says her dad swears there is no money in cattle)?

Breeding quality cows needs specific expertise and care. Unless the family are currently doing this, it's a no-no. Raising prime cross-bred beef cattle for market is feasible.

2 - how much do cows go for normally - i know this is a very broad question, but say 5 of your average, looking quite healthy, recently washed, cows?

Prime cross-bred cattle at 6 months old cost 25k a pop at market. Thai cows at that age cost about half that. Feed the c-b for up to max 6 months, should sell at 40k per pop. 50k per cow seems overpriced, unless fully mature.

3 - what precautions can he take to stop the family in the north selling / gambling away his investment? when livestock is traded, is there any sort of register as to who owns what, or could the cattle be easily sold without his knowledge?

None. He needs to be lucky.

Main criteria:

Plentiful grazing land - five cows need about 5 rai per season alternating each rai.

Ready supply of constant water - this is critical

Shelter from rain and wind (Thai cows are hardy, cross breeds are not).

Availability of dry feed in dry season.

Commitment - taking care of cattle is a 24/7 job - cows eat 24/7.

Choosing the 'right' cattle for the 'right' purpose.

Being prepared to lose the investment money. Only invest what he can afford to lose.

Problems:

Cows contacting disease, being injured, etc. and the subsequent vet fees.

Reliance on the 'family'.

I have plunged into the beef raising market this season. All of the above I have encountered, but as of now, I have not lost any cattle, they are all healthy, and my 'family' are have earned enormous face at being cow owners, and raising good ones. If I break even this year, or make a small profit of about 10k a cow, I will be happy.

[firefox999uk]

Jase, come on lad, have a word with yourself, would you lend £5,000 to a mate back in the Boro

to buy something he, or you know nothing about.

Incidentally our lass sold 3 young bulls last month and had to haggle to get 23,000 Baht each for them,

and every one says she looks after cows good.

Just saying like.

Have a nice day.

[maderaroja]

OK. I was raised on a 4,000 acre (10,000 rai) wheat and cattle ranch in the western US. It's still in my family.

I would say that no one should ever invest in a business he knows nothing about.

I would say that it would be rare to have success as an absentee investor anywhere in a small operation with no controls.

I would never buy cows. I would buy calves that are well weaned from a breed that produces good beef. Some breeds such as milk cow breeds don't produce really good beef and are usually ground up and sold to places like McDonald's. There's nothing wrong with the meat, it just won't be tender and juicy as a steak or roast.

There is so much to know about veterinarian care (ranchers eventually become their own vets by osmosis) and feeding, finishing, butchering, aging etc. that I don't think there is any way for these relatives to grow good beef. I have never seen good beef in LOS unless it came from Australia where they know how to raise good beef. I've never seen any from Canada or the US where they also know how to raise good beef. Maybe there is some I haven't seen.

Raising beef is a career. People grow up with it and/or get college degrees in agriculture. I thought about starting a cattle operation in Thailand simply because I don't see good beef, but I can't own the land and leasing is prohibitive in areas I would want to be. That includes not trusting the legal system after investing in the improvements needed on the land.

I could write a book but the answer would still be "no".

I have seldom read better advice. I hope that OP will listen and have the wisdom to follow your suggestions.

[GOLDBUGGY]

I am not a Cattle Rancher but what I can tell you is that I bought a Whole Steer here last year for about 25,000 Baht, which included the Head and Hide. So I can't see you making a profit when you buy at 50,000 Baht.

We did our own butchering, which I am sure brought the price down, but we had no cool place to hang it for a week, which tenderizes it. So although it tasted okay, it was rather tough to chew. But better when it sat in the refrigerator for a week.

I have never have got good beef in Thailand and I have been here for years. Australian Imported Beef is a little better, but nothing I would write home to my mom about. The best is Canadian or American Beef, which you can get here in a 5 Star Hotel in Bangkok. But then you also pay 5 Star Prices for it to.

"We did our own butchering, which I am sure brought the price down, but we had no cool place to hang it for a week, which tenderizes it. So although it tasted okay, it was rather tough to chew. But better when it sat in the refrigerator for a week."

In case you do that again, the reason it was better after being in the refrigerator for a week is twofold. The first is that it had time for rigor mortis to pass and the second is that natural enzymes had time to break down the tissues in the meat. In a good beef operation that meat would hang in a cooler just above freezing for close to three weeks to fully tenderize and only then be cut, wrapped and sold. It must be cleaned, skinned and washed first or that will give taste and odors. What is hanging is just the part to be butchered and eaten.

One week minimum and every day up to three weeks is better. If it has to be cut and wrapped and refrigerated right away due to space that's better than nothing as long as it gets time before it is eaten or frozen.

Cheers

Thanks for the advice. I agree 100%. My Dad used to hang his meat for no less than 10 days, but if I could find a place as cool as you suggest anywhere. But I am sure 3 weeks would be better at your temperature.

I basically bought this for a wedding party, so I didn't expect too much left over. Smash it up and mix this with some Hot Thai Spices and you don't notice as much. I just kept the Steaks, a couple of other things like a Beef Roast or 2 and some Stewing Beef. It was okay when you boil it this meat as in Stew or Soup. So I don't plan on buying again.

Unless I get Divorced in the future and Remarried again for the 4th time???. Maybe I should start my own Cattle Ranch just in case???

[GOLDBUGGY]

Oh Ya! I almost forgot!

In case you didn't know, the quickest way to lose a Friend is to with lend him money, or go into a failing business with him.

If you value your friend I suggest you stay away from this deal completely.

[technologybytes]

I invested in the US in a business that I knew nothing about. Now I live in Pattaya. That should tell you enough.....

This could mean one of two possible things:

1/ You invested in a business that you know nothing about, lost all your money and your home which you used as security for a loan, leaving you homeless and penniless.. you flew to Thailand, now you live in a rented apartment at Nirun and drink beer Leo on a concrete table outside a mini-mart when you can afford it.

2/ You invested in a business that you know nothing about, but luckily it did really well and you managed to sell up and retire early. You came to Thailand, bought a luxury villa/condo in Pattaya and eat out at the best restaurants every night whilst drinking champagne.