The problem of Muslim integration

[webfact]

The problem of Muslim integration
Luthfi Assyaukanie
The Jakarta Post

JAKARTA: -- The issue of Muslim integration is not exclusively a European problem, but is also an issue in many Muslim-majority countries. Over the last two or three decades, media and political talks have addressed the matter as if it is a specific problem of Western countries.

Recent cases of atrocities committed by Muslim criminals such as the murderous attack on the editors of Charlie Hebdo in Paris have reignited the endless question of Muslim integration.

What is important to underline here is that many scholars and experts believe that Muslims have failed to accept European values. They give various explanations for this failure, which we can sum up into three arguments.

First, the failure results from an unjust social and political system. In France, for example, the system has caused multiple insecurities among the marginalised Muslims.

They endure the lowest education levels, often have the lowest paid jobs and are more prone to unemployment than the French majority.

Second, the failure is mainly due to the incompetent policies that the European governments have taken with regard to Muslim immigrants. The right wings, who have long been behind this argument, blame Western governments for being too tolerant toward Muslim immigrants.

They argue that welcoming Muslim immigrants was the first mistake the Western governments committed.

Granting migrants’ quest for their religious rights was another blunder. The current rise of Muslim extremism, so the argument goes, is mainly due to this over-tolerant policy, which has been in place since the 1970s.

The third argument is similar to the second with a different tone. They blame the government’s policy over Muslim immigrants, not for its tolerance (let alone over-tolerance), but rather for its inflexible and intolerant approach toward Muslims.

The bill that bans the use of headscarves in France, the regulation on minarets in Switzerland and the restriction on halal food in the Netherlands do not reduce Muslim fundamentalism, but rather increase distrust and inconvenience among Muslims.

Full story: http://www.asianewsnet.net/news-76145.html


-- ANN 2015-06-05

[MaxYakov]

They're trying to integrate people living under an intolerant religious tyranny with free societies with radically different moral values and laws? How is that supposed to work, again?

Edited June 5, 2015 by MaxYakov

[greenchair]

At the end of the day, they don't want to be integrated.

Ask them.

Do you ever want to be integrated.

The answer will be no.

Give them an island and let them rule and live the way that they want to.

Not on our welfare bennies though.

[simple1]

They're trying to integrate people living under an intolerant religious tyranny with free societies with radically different moral values and laws? How is that supposed to work, again?

If you click through on the link the writer is clearly talking to the concerns regarding Islamism in Indonesia and similar challenges being faced in Western countries.

"Islamisation in the sense of imposing Islamic values in people’s public life is not only an Indonesian phenomenon. It can be found in other predominantly Muslim countries whose constitution is not based on Islamic law. Turkey is a clear example in point.

If disintegration refers to the process of disassociating people from the bigger group, what Islamists have been doing in all over the Muslim world is unquestionably an act of disintegration. Like in Europe, Muslim fundamentalists are trying to disengage from nations not merely because of the failure of policies set by secular governments, but mainly due to the failure of Muslim themselves"

[MaxYakov]

They're trying to integrate people living under an intolerant religious tyranny with free societies with radically different moral values and laws? How is that supposed to work, again?

If you click through on the link the writer is clearly talking to the concerns regarding Islamism in Indonesia and similar challenges being faced in Western countries.

"Islamisation in the sense of imposing Islamic values in people’s public life is not only an Indonesian phenomenon. It can be found in other predominantly Muslim countries whose constitution is not based on Islamic law. Turkey is a clear example in point.

If disintegration refers to the process of disassociating people from the bigger group, what Islamists have been doing in all over the Muslim world is unquestionably an act of disintegration. Like in Europe, Muslim fundamentalists are trying to disengage from nations not merely because of the failure of policies set by secular governments, but mainly due to the failure of Muslim themselves"

Doesn't "disintegration" imply that there was a previous "integration"?

Or, to quote my very Thai ex-girlfriend: You give me to think too much (holding her hands up to her head)!

[ABCer]

For what it is trying to say the OP article is too long.

An essence in a nutshell is:

If Europeans bend over and demonstrate willingness to participate in joys of Islam on Muslim terms - they (maybe) may be allowed to live. A special tax is applicable.

Sorry, I cannot see any problems with Muslim integration.

Edited June 5, 2015 by ABCer

[KarenBravo]

When you have muslim patrols in London threatening native English girls because their skirt is too short (in their view), then it's time to bring the hammer down.

[thaibeachlovers]

They argue that welcoming Muslim immigrants was the first mistake the Western governments committed.

Granting migrants’ quest for their religious rights was another blunder

And that is incorrect why?

Allowing persons of a mindset that is radically opposed to everything a free people holds dear to obtain citizenship was a huge blunder. The Saudis don't make that mistake. They allow "guest workers" only as long as they have a job, then they go home. The Saudis allow no dispensation for Christian worship and presumably any other infidel religion. They allow no tolerance for cultural differences, forcing everyone to kow tow to sharia. They have the example that the west should follow re Muslims.

More fool the west for not doing so. IMO not one mosque in a western city till there is a church in Riyadh.

[englishoak]

God dosnt integrate, god demands obedience and that is all.

The insanity and fanaticism people give all religions and the dogma spewed on its behalf guarantees discord.

Until religion is reduced to the realms of sci fi writing and fairy stories for the under 10s there will always be death and conflict over religious beliefs.

Dont care what religion, all are a parasite on humanity not just Islam.

[Neurath]

Don't care for integration one bit. Neither necessary nor desired. Provided new arrivals agree to hold to the laws of the (new) land (and materially do so) what else they do is up to them. If their religious scruples dictate otherwise then that's just tough. Don't like a law? Well, there are secular democratic mechanism to get them changed (in secular democracies). Other avenues - no chance, nick off.

[cooked]

People are expected to accept and tolerate the intolerant. <deleted> to that.

[simple1]

They're trying to integrate people living under an intolerant religious tyranny with free societies with radically different moral values and laws? How is that supposed to work, again?

If you click through on the link the writer is clearly talking to the concerns regarding Islamism in Indonesia and similar challenges being faced in Western countries.

"Islamisation in the sense of imposing Islamic values in people’s public life is not only an Indonesian phenomenon. It can be found in other predominantly Muslim countries whose constitution is not based on Islamic law. Turkey is a clear example in point.

If disintegration refers to the process of disassociating people from the bigger group, what Islamists have been doing in all over the Muslim world is unquestionably an act of disintegration. Like in Europe, Muslim fundamentalists are trying to disengage from nations not merely because of the failure of policies set by secular governments, but mainly due to the failure of Muslim themselves"

Doesn't "disintegration" imply that there was a previous "integration"?

Or, to quote my very Thai ex-girlfriend: You give me to think too much (holding her hands up to her head)!

I am certain you understand the writer is talking to the threat of Islamist political ideology to fracture democratic society in Indonesia and elsewhere. Its evident even within this forum many are contributing to the Islamist goal of undermining democratic institutions by their support of the far right.

[ABCer]

When you have muslim patrols in London threatening native English girls because their skirt is too short (in their view), then it's time to bring the hammer down.

Bravo! Karen.

100% agree with you.

Just for fun, though, just for fun:

I know of "night patrol" picture. It is Dutch. But who brought "Muslim patrol" to London?

"native English girls" is a bit dubious nowadays. Many Muslims are already "native" to GB. Why do you let them breed?

"the length (or lack of it) of a skirt" is a relative thing. It depends on traditions, fashion, culture, even religion. Talk to Scots - they are your allies in the matter.

if by "bring the hammer down" you mean English Law - it isn't your ally in the matter. Not yet.

Hey, hey! It's Saturday!

P.S. I once knew a Judge who in situation you are describing used to say: " A woman in mini skirt can outrun a Muslim man in a long one".

Edited June 6, 2015 by ABCer

[samran]

Why isn't this conversation being conducted in Thai? Integration and all that....

[sdanielmcev]

They're trying to integrate people living under an intolerant religious tyranny with free societies with radically different moral values and laws? How is that supposed to work, again?

If you click through on the link the writer is clearly talking to the concerns regarding Islamism in Indonesia and similar challenges being faced in Western countries.

"Islamisation in the sense of imposing Islamic values in peoples public life is not only an Indonesian phenomenon. It can be found in other predominantly Muslim countries whose constitution is not based on Islamic law. Turkey is a clear example in point.

If disintegration refers to the process of disassociating people from the bigger group, what Islamists have been doing in all over the Muslim world is unquestionably an act of disintegration. Like in Europe, Muslim fundamentalists are trying to disengage from nations not merely because of the failure of policies set by secular governments, but mainly due to the failure of Muslim themselves"

Doesn't "disintegration" imply that there was a previous "integration"?

Or, to quote my very Thai ex-girlfriend: You give me to think too much (holding her hands up to her head)!

I am certain you understand the writer is talking to the threat of Islamist political ideology to fracture democratic society in Indonesia and elsewhere. Its evident even within this forum many are contributing to the Islamist goal of undermining democratic institutions by their support of the far right.

What the heck does 'the far right' have to do with Islamic integration? More sloppy reasoning. Liberals, led by Obama, are leading the charge for the U.S. Muslim integration. Whether anybody likes it or not, it is liberal policies that led the West into accepting this nonsense that Muslims will integrate willingly as a whole.

[ezzra]

No such thing as Muslim integrations, it's an urban myth, and if by rare chance, a Muslim

want to assimilate in to the surrounding non Muslim community, there will be always someone

who will poison his mindd and soul and tell/order not to... such are the Islam/Muslim teachings...

[toolpush]

 

They argue that welcoming Muslim immigrants was the first mistake the Western governments committed.

Granting migrants’ quest for their religious rights was another blunder

And that is incorrect why?

Allowing persons of a mindset that is radically opposed to everything a free people holds dear to obtain citizenship was a huge blunder. The Saudis don't make that mistake. They allow "guest workers" only as long as they have a job, then they go home. The Saudis allow no dispensation for Christian worship and presumably any other infidel religion. They allow no tolerance for cultural differences, forcing everyone to kow tow to sharia. They have the example that the west should follow re Muslims.

More fool the west for not doing so. IMO not one mosque in a western city till there is a church in Riyadh.

Riyadh?? Why not Mecca and Medina?

 

[gchurch259]

Many have little or no education or skills and expect to live off the government and taxpayers in their host country, all the while complaining about how unfair and intolerant the host country is. Simple, stay where you are born and make something of yourself and that country

Some Muslim Countries are more advanced and have good hard working people. Others, just make too many babies and have no infrastructure to develop into a second or first world country.

Another problem was the European countries colonizing the North African countries and exploiting them for years.

[noitom]

This Thai writer says "second," the failure is "mainly" due to "incompetent policies of European governments. The Thai writer perceives that European governments are more incompetent than the Thai governments on whose watch 7,000 souls have been slaughtered an tens of thousands injured, maimed an disrupted in the Thai south.

[JDGRUEN]

The words Muslim and Integration are Oxymorons

The words Muslim and Assimilation cannot exist in the same sentence - except as Muslims do not Assimilate

[John1012]

I let someone come and stay in my house. My house. They then try to dominate my society with their own antiquated and mysoginistic practices. Is it any surprise that I object and reject them and their beliefs? I am not being right wing, just defending my rights, in my house, to live , within my laws, as I wish. If these believers object, they are quite within their rights to leave, we are a free democratic society. If they don't leave, then live within the rules of the society that exists, or change them by democratic methods.

[simple1]

If you click through on the link the writer is clearly talking to the concerns regarding Islamism in Indonesia and similar challenges being faced in Western countries.

"Islamisation in the sense of imposing Islamic values in peoples public life is not only an Indonesian phenomenon. It can be found in other predominantly Muslim countries whose constitution is not based on Islamic law. Turkey is a clear example in point.

If disintegration refers to the process of disassociating people from the bigger group, what Islamists have been doing in all over the Muslim world is unquestionably an act of disintegration. Like in Europe, Muslim fundamentalists are trying to disengage from nations not merely because of the failure of policies set by secular governments, but mainly due to the failure of Muslim themselves"

Doesn't "disintegration" imply that there was a previous "integration"?

Or, to quote my very Thai ex-girlfriend: You give me to think too much (holding her hands up to her head)!

I am certain you understand the writer is talking to the threat of Islamist political ideology to fracture democratic society in Indonesia and elsewhere. Its evident even within this forum many are contributing to the Islamist goal of undermining democratic institutions by their support of the far right.

What the heck does 'the far right' have to do with Islamic integration? More sloppy reasoning. Liberals, led by Obama, are leading the charge for the U.S. Muslim integration. Whether anybody likes it or not, it is liberal policies that led the West into accepting this nonsense that Muslims will integrate willingly as a whole.

Post removed to enable reply.

Not familiar with US politics, but as I understand the US does in general have a reasonably integrated Muslim heritage population, with the Islamists representing a very small percentage. Again as I understand, from a US citizen on this forum, who has had hands on experience, US integration policies are led at the State level, not Federal. Other Western nations have historically put little effort into integration policies, addressing Wahhabi ideology etc and will likely be a generational timeline to rectify the policy mistakes of the past.

The rise of the far right is relevant, IMO, offers nothing but further fracturing of Western society, extending the time for resolving challenges faced and diverting security resources.

Edited June 6, 2015 by simple1

[simple1]

This Thai writer says "second," the failure is "mainly" due to "incompetent policies of European governments. The Thai writer perceives that European governments are more incompetent than the Thai governments on whose watch 7,000 souls have been slaughtered an tens of thousands injured, maimed an disrupted in the Thai south.

The writer is an Indonesian born Muslim who is talking to the dangers of the Islamists threatening democracy in Indonesia and Western countries

Edited June 6, 2015 by simple1

[JockPieandBeans]

The writer who is an Indonesian born Muslim. has quite unintentionally, destroyed the whole argument of the Muslim apologists.

From the OP

What is important to underline here is that many scholars and experts believe that Muslims have failed to accept European values. They give various explanations for this failure, which we can sum up into three arguments.

As for the 3 arguments. Lets look a little deeper.

First, the failure results from an unjust social and political system. In France, for example, the system has caused multiple insecurities among the marginalised Muslims.

They endure the lowest education levels, often have the lowest paid jobs and are more prone to unemployment than the French majority.

Second, the failure is mainly due to the incompetent policies that the European governments have taken with regard to Muslim immigrants. The right wings, who have long been behind this argument, blame Western governments for being too tolerant toward Muslim immigrants.

They argue that welcoming Muslim immigrants was the first mistake the Western governments committed.

Granting migrants’ quest for their religious rights was another blunder. The current rise of Muslim extremism, so the argument goes, is mainly due to this over-tolerant policy, which has been in place since the 1970s.

The third argument is similar to the second with a different tone. They blame the government’s policy over Muslim immigrants, not for its tolerance (let alone over-tolerance), but rather for its inflexible and intolerant approach toward Muslims.

As it mentions Europe but refers to France. I will stick Europe but refer to the UK.

1. An unjust Social and Political system ? In Europe ? I defy anyone to provide evidence that Muslims in Europe have endured an unjust Social and Political system. It would be much closer to the truth to say that the Politco of Europe have bent over backwards to try and accommodate Muslims.

They endure the lowest education levels ? Here was I thinking that Muslims attended the same schools as everyone else. Unless their parents took the decision to send them elsewhere. So, if Muslims do have the lowest education levels. Who's fault is it ? Low education means a sh!t job, everywhere in the world.

2. Utter garbage. European Governments have bent over backwards to try and appease Muslims. Remember Muslims, they are OUR Governments, not yours. You are free to leave anytime you like. Yep, everyone is a right wingers if you do not agree that Muslims should be able to do what they want.

3. In this day and age, for ANY Muslim to be talking about tolerance is clearly indulging in illegal substances.

"Islamisation in the sense of imposing Islamic values in people’s public life is not only an Indonesian phenomenon. It can be found in other predominantly Muslim countries whose constitution is not based on Islamic law. Turkey is a clear example in point.

Perhaps it might have been prudent to follow up with a thesis of why '' Islamisation '' is happening in Countries like Turkey and Indonesia. Follow that up with a thesis on why Islamic values are being imposed, sometimes by stealth, on ALL these Countries whose constitutions are not based on Islamic Law.

On second thoughts, don't bother wasting your time. Those that are not blind, already know the answer.

[otherstuff1957]

Religion is the great divider. As long as religions depict non-believers as inferior or damned, as long as religious traditions set people apart, as long as religions ban intermarriage between different faiths they will continue to do more harm than good.

[thaibeachlovers]

They're trying to integrate people living under an intolerant religious tyranny with free societies with radically different moral values and laws? How is that supposed to work, again?

If you click through on the link the writer is clearly talking to the concerns regarding Islamism in Indonesia and similar challenges being faced in Western countries.

"Islamisation in the sense of imposing Islamic values in people’s public life is not only an Indonesian phenomenon. It can be found in other predominantly Muslim countries whose constitution is not based on Islamic law. Turkey is a clear example in point.

If disintegration refers to the process of disassociating people from the bigger group, what Islamists have been doing in all over the Muslim world is unquestionably an act of disintegration. Like in Europe, Muslim fundamentalists are trying to disengage from nations not merely because of the failure of policies set by secular governments, but mainly due to the failure of Muslim themselves"

Doesn't "disintegration" imply that there was a previous "integration"?

Or, to quote my very Thai ex-girlfriend: You give me to think too much (holding her hands up to her head)!

I am certain you understand the writer is talking to the threat of Islamist political ideology to fracture democratic society in Indonesia and elsewhere. Its evident even within this forum many are contributing to the Islamist goal of undermining democratic institutions by their support of the far right.

contributing to the Islamist goal of undermining democratic institutions

Since when was supporting the "far right" undemocratic? Unless they intend to suspend voting, the right is just as democratic as the left.

[Neurath]

Why isn't this conversation being conducted in Thai? Integration and all that....

Stunning that it hasn't occurred to many posters isn't it. They're too busy integrating themselves into their own ethnic and religious group(s). Really though, they're desperately ingratiating themselves with said ethic/religious group(s). Of course, for this group, integration works one way - towards whatever they happen to be no matter where they happen to be - because what they are defines by default what is good. Integration in Thailand therefore means Thais becoming more like them. Integration of other groups in Western countries means these groups becoming more like them. "Heathens, purveyors of foreignness, smelly food and wrongness in dress! Thou shalt become like me for I am Excellence and rightness Embodied!"

[thaibeachlovers]

Why isn't this conversation being conducted in Thai? Integration and all that....

Stunning that it hasn't occurred to many posters isn't it. They're too busy integrating themselves into their own ethnic and religious group(s). Really though, they're desperately ingratiating themselves with said ethic/religious group(s). Of course, for this group, integration works one way - towards whatever they happen to be no matter where they happen to be - because what they are defines by default what is good. Integration in Thailand therefore means Thais becoming more like them. Integration of other groups in Western countries means these groups becoming more like them. "Heathens, purveyors of foreignness, smelly food and wrongness in dress! Thou shalt become like me for I am Excellence and rightness Embodied!"

Perhaps, but to my knowledge no farang group is proposing to execute Thais in the street for not accepting their way as the only way.

[janpharma]

Muslim integration doesn't exist...

[rethaier]

God dosnt integrate, god demands obedience and that is all.

The insanity and fanaticism people give all religions and the dogma spewed on its behalf guarantees discord.

Until religion is reduced to the realms of sci fi writing and fairy stories for the under 10s there will always be death and conflict over religious beliefs.

Dont care what religion, all are a parasite on humanity not just Islam.

I agree with most of your comment but no other religion other than Islam says convert or die. So Islam is more than a mere parasite, it is a predator.

Edited June 6, 2015 by rethaier