Valve checks on motorcycles - a few questions.

[marcusmarsh]

My Honda CB500F has just had its 24,000 km service. Part of the 24,000km is a valve check. Plus I got lots of bits done like changing sprockets, chain, spark plug and more sorted and she,s running real nice

When I asked the mechanics about the valve check they said ''all is fine''. That may well be the truth as so far those mechanics have done me well. But this being Thailand (no offence to anyone intended) I would like to make sure that is really the case. Its the first valve check its had. How can I check the valves really ARE doing fine ?

Are their some symptoms that tell me when a bike with valves that are not running fine would show ?

Im mechanically inept and guess im after any tips on valves and what I should do other than just trust the mechanics who said 'all fine'.

Is it normal for a bike that,s done 24,000 km to have vales that have never been adjusted, needed adjusting ?

Appreciated

Marcus

[papa al]

"How can I check the valves really ARE doing fine ?

​The valve cover must come off and clearance checked with a feeler gauge...see YouTube.

Are their some symptoms that tell me when a bike with valves that are not running fine would show ?

Not necessarily. Audible ticking possibly.

Is it normal for a bike that,s done 24,000 km to have vales that have never been adjusted, needed adjusting ?"

Quite possible.

[stubuzz]

I am guessing they were not checked.

[papa al]

Best use a shop that allows owner to observe work.

Otherwise, ???.

[apetley]

Have a look at the cam cover. It will be obvious if it has been removed for the valve check. If it hasn't been removed they didn't check clearances.

How soon after arriving did they do the service as valve clearance should be done on a cold engine?

If the engine is quiet it is more than likely perfectly ok so don't worry too much.

Edited June 7, 2015 by apetley

[CarolJadzia]

Valve clearances are easy to check. Just lift off the rocker cover. Turn your engine over to align the right TDC marks, and check the clearances with a feeler gauge.

Not long done my partners SV650. Around the same mileage. Only needed to change two shims out of the eight. We only changed them because they were fractionally out of tolerance.

The old rule is "a noisy tappet never hurt anyone". Means the bigger problem is that as valve seats wear the tolerance can close up. This can cause the valve not to close properly and that will lead to a valve burning out.

However with a low mileage engine like that, as long as it has been looked after, I would not expect that to be an issue.

I would not worry unless there is a lose of power or something. You can get compression testers to check your compression is where it should be. But if everything seems to be running ok it probably is.

As for seeing if the cover has been disturbed well you will notice on a dirty engine that someone has been playing. But if you keep your engine spotless, a good mechanic will leave no signs they have been in.

[marcusmarsh]

Thanks to cj, ape and papa - appreciate those answers.

The booked time for service was 9am Friday morning. It usually takes 4 hours so I usually stay in town and pick it up in a bit. This time, I got there at 8.45am, and as soon as he saw the check-list of things to do he asked if I could come back the next day in the evening time. She is running really well. I clearly notice a difference. Guess that.s mainly the sprockets and chain but what do I know...

One thing, unless im going bonkers (possible), is I can now hear the gears as I change them. I used to hear it when putting into first but now I can hear them on all gears - it seems far more clearly.

Not sure if it was always like that but dont think so. Is there anything done during a service which might make that happen ?

I did google it without much coming up.

[LindaLovelace]

"How can I check the valves really ARE doing fine ?

​The valve cover must come off and clearance checked with a feeler gauge...see YouTube.

Are their some symptoms that tell me when a bike with valves that are not running fine would show ?

Not necessarily. Audible ticking possibly.

Is it normal for a bike that,s done 24,000 km to have vales that have never been adjusted, needed adjusting ?"

Quite possible.

But as you said, this is Thailand, so you do not know what the guy actually did or whethr he did it correctly. I have been so disappointed with the maintenance interval service at dealers that I now do it all myself. For example, they NEVER lubricated the cables, ETC.!!!

If you are mechanically inept, you are between a rock and a hard place and I have no answers. I can tell you that you cannot trust the work of 99% of the mechanics in this cuntry. Finding the 1% is the trick.

[LindaLovelace]

Have a look at the cam cover. It will be obvious if it has been removed for the valve check. If it hasn't been removed they didn't check clearances.

How soon after arriving did they do the service as valve clearance should be done on a cold engine?

If the engine is quiet it is more than likely perfectly ok so don't worry too much.

You can burn your valves with a quiet engine. Been there, done that.

[LindaLovelace]

Thanks to cj, ape and papa - appreciate those answers.

The booked time for service was 9am Friday morning. It usually takes 4 hours so I usually stay in town and pick it up in a bit. This time, I got there at 8.45am, and as soon as he saw the check-list of things to do he asked if I could come back the next day in the evening time. She is running really well. I clearly notice a difference. Guess that.s mainly the sprockets and chain but what do I know...

One thing, unless im going bonkers (possible), is I can now hear the gears as I change them. I used to hear it when putting into first but now I can hear them on all gears - it seems far more clearly.

Not sure if it was always like that but dont think so. Is there anything done during a service which might make that happen ?

I did google it without much coming up.

If he kept the bike all night, maybe he did the job and did it right! That's a good indicator.

I cannot imagine anything that could possibly happen during a service that would change the sound of the gears shifting. With all due respect you probably are going bonkers -- thinking too much. If your old chain was all bound up and creating a lot of drag, and now it runs free, could this do it? I don't know.

[Beardog]

Thanks to cj, ape and papa - appreciate those answers.

The booked time for service was 9am Friday morning. It usually takes 4 hours so I usually stay in town and pick it up in a bit. This time, I got there at 8.45am, and as soon as he saw the check-list of things to do he asked if I could come back the next day in the evening time. She is running really well. I clearly notice a difference. Guess that.s mainly the sprockets and chain but what do I know...

One thing, unless im going bonkers (possible), is I can now hear the gears as I change them. I used to hear it when putting into first but now I can hear them on all gears - it seems far more clearly.

Not sure if it was always like that but dont think so. Is there anything done during a service which might make that happen ?

I did google it without much coming up.

If he kept the bike all night, maybe he did the job and did it right! That's a good indicator.

I cannot imagine anything that could possibly happen during a service that would change the sound of the gears shifting. With all due respect you probably are going bonkers -- thinking too much. If your old chain was all bound up and creating a lot of drag, and now it runs free, could this do it? I don't know.

True story as the valve measurements should be done cold as well as warm. I still myself would prefer to be at the shop when they do the lash adjustments as quite a few shops will tell you they did it & never look at it at all. but like everyone else says if the bike has a little usual road grime on the engine there will always be a telltale sign (even if it is just the edge of the rubber piece that gives access to the valve train) will have a newer look to it as it is customary to clean the rubber making it easy to tell if they are giving you a line of crap. But being Thailand they may omit the cleanup & just slam the rubber back in. Even though Kawasaki in Pattaya (the main shop) is very good(at least inregards to my servicing) I would rather be their especially as something as crucial as the shims for the valve train. But I have feeler guages & will check the clearances before they do the shim work if needed. I would do it myself but for the small amount of Baht why get my hands greasy.

like Linda says the new gear noise is most likely the new sprocket & chain. Unless it was really beat from popping wheelies the sound wouldn't be that noticeable but with new gears it will always have a different sound than the old parts at 24,000 kilos.

[Overandout]

I'm not familiar with this particular model, but with many bikes, the valve cover gasket should only be reused if the valve cover is removed within a short period of time or kms after a new one was fitted.

Assuming that your gasket was the original, its a good bet that the Honda service schedule states that a new gasket should be used at the 24,000 kms service.

So, if your invoice doesn't list a new gasket, I would be asking why.

[CarolJadzia]

A different grade of oil will change the engine sound. Do you know what oil they used? The viscosity index is what the numbers on the side of the oil bottle means.

Oil is not all the same. Many modern synthetic oils are thinner than the older mineral oils. Oil is the blood of the engine. Cheap oil from Tescos will be ok in a car, but I would never put it in my bike.

http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto_oils/oil_viscosity_explained.htm

[CarolJadzia]

I'm not familiar with this particular model, but with many bikes, the valve cover gasket should only be reused if the valve cover is removed within a short period of time or kms after a new one was fitted.

Assuming that your gasket was the original, its a good bet that the Honda service schedule states that a new gasket should be used at the 24,000 kms service.

So, if your invoice doesn't list a new gasket, I would be asking why.

Sorry but I will have to disagree, some rocker cover gaskets are rubber, they do not need to be replaced. Not sure about this engine. However a rocker cover gasket is not subject to the same conditions as a head gasket and can often be reused.

[papa al]

Valve clearances are easy to check. Just lift off the rocker cover. Turn your engine over to align the right TDC marks, and check the clearances with a feeler gauge.

Not long done my partners SV650. Around the same mileage. Only needed to change two shims out of the eight. We only changed them because they were fractionally out of tolerance.

The old rule is "a noisy tappet never hurt anyone". Means the bigger problem is that as valve seats wear the tolerance can close up. This can cause the valve not to close properly and that will lead to a valve burning out.

However with a low mileage engine like that, as long as it has been looked after, I would not expect that to be an issue.

I would not worry unless there is a lose of power or something. You can get compression testers to check your compression is where it should be. But if everything seems to be running ok it probably is.

As for seeing if the cover has been disturbed well you will notice on a dirty engine that someone has been playing. But if you keep your engine spotless, a good mechanic will leave no signs they have been in.

it is possible for valves to be out of spec and compression is within spec.

[CarolJadzia]

it is possible for valves to be out of spec and compression is within spec.

All sorts of things are possibly. Just not the norm.

I have seen an engine where the gap changes. Took ages to work it out. Turns out someone had filled down the shims by hand. As the engine was running the shims turned changing the tappet gap.

Sometimes valves can get bent, seats can burn out. Springs can weaken. Valves can bounce. Not to mention what can happen with camshafts and cam chains.

There is of course also desmodromic valves on Ducati's.

[Overandout]

I'm not familiar with this particular model, but with many bikes, the valve cover gasket should only be reused if the valve cover is removed within a short period of time or kms after a new one was fitted.

Assuming that your gasket was the original, its a good bet that the Honda service schedule states that a new gasket should be used at the 24,000 kms service.

So, if your invoice doesn't list a new gasket, I would be asking why.

Sorry but I will have to disagree, some rocker cover gaskets are rubber, they do not need to be replaced. Not sure about this engine. However a rocker cover gasket is not subject to the same conditions as a head gasket and can often be reused.

Firstly, I said "some valve cover gaskets". I have no idea if this bike has a rubber gasket set on the valve cover or not, but most modern Japanese in line 4 motors do.

Secondly, if you think that rubber valve cover gaskets don't need replacing then you've got a lot to learn about mechanics.

Here is a quote from my last big bike's service manual (for a Suzuki GSXR 750 y - K3) in the section "Periodic Maintenance" - "Valve clearance" which is due at 24,000 kms and had a rubber profiled valve cover gasket.

Reinstall Cylider Head Cover:

* Pour engine oil in each oil pocket of the cylinder head

* Install the dowel pins

* Install the O rings

* Install new gaskets to the cylinder head cover

* Apply SUZUKI BOND B to the cam end caps of the gaskets as shown

CAUTION USE NEW GASKETS TO PREVENT OIL LEAKS

So, if I had ever taken my GSXR to a Suzuki dealer for this work I would fully expect them to follow the service manual faithfully and charge me for the new gaskets (plural because the 4 end caps are also classed as gaskets).

Whether you would change them is obviously questionable, but I was giving advice to the OP about how an authorised dealer should do a proper job.

Sorry if being correct offends you.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Overandout

[CarolJadzia]

Hey. Your the expert. You believe what you like.

I have a City and Guilds in Motorcycle mechanics. 3 years experience of working in a bike shop as a mechanic. Along with over 30 years spannering experience on motorcycles in the UK.

I know for a fact what happens in bike shops here. They don't change the rocker cover gasket unless it needs it or the customer has expressly asked for it.

But of course your in Thailand, the bike shop was fully kitted out with Snap on roll cabs and flank drive sockets. They are the experts. Far better than the average monkey mechanics you will find in England.

[Overandout]

Hey. Your the expert. You believe what you like.

I have a City and Guilds in Motorcycle mechanics. 3 years experience of working in a bike shop as a mechanic. Along with over 30 years spannering experience on motorcycles in the UK.

I know for a fact what happens in bike shops here. They don't change the rocker cover gasket unless it needs it or the customer has expressly asked for it.

But of course your in Thailand, the bike shop was fully kitted out with Snap on roll cabs and flank drive sockets. They are the experts. Far better than the average monkey mechanics you will find in England.

I don't understand what you are getting at here.

Of course the Thai garages probably don't follow the procedures in the service manuals. That's why I am saying that if they are not invoicing for parts that probably should be changed in the service, it probably indicates that they are not to be trusted to have done the work they claim.

I am no more of an expert than you, but I am giving practical advice to the OP, not "showing off about my own "abilities".

The fact that you have a C&G and some professional experience doesn't change what an official service center should or shouldn't do according to manufacturer's service schedule. You of all people should know that.

[CarolJadzia]

I am no more of an expert than you, but I am giving practical advice to the OP, not "showing off about my own "abilities".

The fact that you have a C&G and some professional experience doesn't change what an official service center should or shouldn't do according to manufacturer's service schedule. You of all people should know that.

No that is not what I am saying at all.

All I am saying is don't accuse a Thai Bike Shop of malpractice all because they have not followed your precious service manual.

It does not work like that anywhere in the world, let alone Thailand.

[ttakata]

Uh back to the OP.

The bolts on the cam cover should have paint marks when the factory torqued the bolts to spec.

The assembler takes a marker and writes from the bolt head to the cover like this photo.

If the cover was removed the paint marks probably won't line up anymore since the exact bolt probably didn't go in the same hole at the same torque.

Please let us know what you think about the cover being removed.

Was this at an official Honda bigbike center?

Edited June 23, 2015 by ttakata

[marcusmarsh]

OK, so just a wee update....

Havent been ignoring this thread so thanks to all posters, very much appreciated

So after getting a puncture a few days back I needed to find a shop that could fix it quickly for me. All the small roadside guy,s just waved me away and then I remembered a big bike shop that has 2nd hand and new motorcycles for sale here in Chiang Mai (some lovely bikes in there). Drove round to there where the guy ,who spoke excellent English, was most helpful.

Without wishing to sound like a snob, I could see he had a much higher intelligence level than the Honda shop guys and noticed I immediately felt more relaxed (the language would have played the bigger part there though).

Today I have taken the bike around there to get the valves checked. Its been there all day as they needed the engine to cool down first and I just received a call saying he does indeed need to make a few adjustments. Told me the price of some parts that cost 200 baht.

Anyone know what they might be ? (Guess I,ll find out later)

I will report tomorrow exactly whats happened as he has ordered something and it might not be delivered in time for me to collect today. That could be valve non related though as I am having a new air filter put on.

But it does mean, in my opinion at least, that the Honda guys didnt spot or even look at the valves. Or perhaps didnt know what they were looking for/at.

I will report exact assessment tomorrow.

[Overandout]

Only parts involved with valve adjustments are the shims (or the replacement gasket ). 200 Baht won't buy many shims so I expect it will just be one or two exhaust valves needing doing.

[ktm jeff]

marcusmarsh , Glad you found a better mechanic than the Honda monkeys that seems to have ripped you off . That puncture could well have saved your engine . And i bet you were cursing that puncture . 200 Baht sounds like a few shims , but it may need more , that he can use from other valves . Could you keep us informed , and name this shop to help others in CM get a better service . .

[JesseLeeOver]

I've got my appointment set for my CB650F at Honda Bigwing here in Bangkok. I'm dreading taking it in for the valve check. I have had shitty luck with motorcycle maintenance. I mean absurd things going on with something as simple as an oil change. It's nuts. Anyone have experience with Honda Big Wing here in BKK. They fellow at the counter quoted me an 8 hour job, but still, I'm just weary of this 24K checkup.

[marcusmarsh]

So I collected the bike today...

Im looking at the bill now (nice to have my first ever bill in English) and it reads '4 shim valve' at 185 baht per piece. He had the replaced ones in a bag which he gave to me as he did with the old air filter too.

He said the air filter was very dirty and, after ringing me to check, replaced it. He showed me the old filter and it was filthy (though maybe that,s normal and just needed cleaning but I was happy to get it replaced).

Honda had never even mentioned the air filter Im pretty sure (though maybe im wrong) and Im inept with mechanics so didnt know about checking it. The new one has a warranty of 100,000 km but he told me to clean it every 10,000km. I had a indicator replaced too.

The bill reads

1 x Signal light - 870 baht

4 pieces shim valve - 740 baht

1 slime repair kit (so I can repair my own punctures... um ...hopefully) - 350 baht

1 BMC air filter - 2,500 baht

Labour - 1,500 baht

Total 5,960 baht.

Labour = Check valve clearance and adjust, clean spark plug, fitting signal light, fitting new air filter.

..........................................................................................................................................................

I am about to move to Koh Phang Ngan next week but had I not been moving I would, with absolute certainty, used this guy from here on in (being that my Honda warranty has now expired).

And yes, happy I got that puncture Though not at the time. I seem to have good luck with the mechanics on vehicles Ive owned but punctures ? Forget about it. On any bike ive owned I feel like I bang em out on a monthly. Slight exaggeration obviously but feels that way - this time it was metal screw sitting in the tyre - even did a day trip with it in as I noticed it on morning of the trip.

For those in Chiang Mai that the above info might be of use.

The shop is called 'Piston Shop'.

Guy,s name is Watit ( Nat)

Tel - 053-234 344

And the road is, the best I can do is to write it phonetically - as it was pronounced,

49/3 Assadatorn Road.

[email protected]

www.facebook/piston.shop

..............................................................................................................

Directions,

If you were on the outside of the moat and rode past Chang Puak gate to the very corner of moat. Turn left directly at corner. Its along that road. Through 1 or 2 sets of lights and its on the left hand side along that main road. If you get to the Tesco,s you,ve gone too far.

.......................................

Once more big thanks to all that posted, as always appreciated. And YES im totally aware that having my bike on KP is not the greatest, will be forever riding around in circles But will pop her on the boat from time to time to take her on tours around the southern mainland too.

Cheers

Marcus

Edited June 30, 2015 by marcusmarsh

[ktm jeff]

Nice one marcus , glad you got the job correctly sorted . The Piston shop has been highly recomended many times before too . Good mechanics are hard to come by in any country , but more difficult in Thailand , where "our" lack of languags skills can make things more difficult . Jesse , if you know what work is entailed in doing the shims ( seems the "Honda mechanics " dont ) , then INSIST you watch while they are checked / done - or have a knowledable friend watch for you . Only way to be sure its done . Find a shop ( Honda ? ) that is honest enougth to allow this , without invalidating your warranty . Good luck .

[JesseLeeOver]

I had a Datsun 240z that played around with then finally swapped the larger 2.8L motor and added the turbo charging system to it. I've adjusted the valves on the Datsun several times, but never played around with any motorcycle. I just need a good, honest mechanic, and I'm not trying to be funny here. lol!

[ktm jeff]

^ I can recomend some in Cm , but with you in BKK , you need other people to recomend some . Bike shims are the same principal as car shims , but doing yourself may invalidate warranty . Or have Honda "do" them ( and you ) , then do as the OP , and have them done elsewhere , by a competant / honest and capable mechanic . Restored a "samurai" many moons ago .

[JesseLeeOver]

^ I can recomend some in Cm , but with you in BKK , you need other people to recomend some . Bike shims are the same principal as car shims , but doing yourself may invalidate warranty . Or have Honda "do" them ( and you ) , then do as the OP , and have them done elsewhere , by a competant / honest and capable mechanic . Restored a "samurai" many moons ago .

Okay, so give it the old triple check then