Call for 'reforms before elections' forces a detour in PM's road map

[webfact]

THAI TALK
Call for 'reforms before elections' forces a detour in PM's road map

BANGKOK: -- Opinion polls and web pages advocating "reforms before elections" have sprung up. But users of the social media have also been describing this push as an attempt to extend the tenure of the interim government.

But do all supporters of "reforms before elections" want Premier Prayut Chan-o-cha to stay on for two years beyond the timeframe of his current road map? Not necessarily so.

If the proposal of a group of National Reform Council (NRC) members is finally endorsed, the upcoming referendum will be a very unique (and confusing) one indeed.

For one thing, the original idea for the referendum was to ask the people to decide whether to accept the new, controversial constitution draft or not. Now, according to the new recommendation, the same ballot in the referendum will also pose another big question: Do you agree with "reforms before elections".

I am not sure how the questions will be phrased - a very sensitive and complicated process. In fact, it was already quite a tall order to tackle the first item. Now, a second question, no less controversial, has plunged the whole exercise into a new spin, which threatens to get out of control if things proceed the way they have been doing in the past week.

Pro-reform elements have proposed that the reform process should take precedence over elections and that a two-year period might just be the right transition pace. Critics were quick to point out that this might be a conspiracy to extend General Prayut's term by two years.

The premier himself has been coy about it. Officially, he isn't interested in holding on to power. But then, when pressed, Prayut had this very interesting statement to make:

"I am not pushing for anything. If I am asked to stay on, I will take on the task. But if I stay on, it must be because it's legitimate, not because I want to hold on to power. You must protect me from [criticism from] outside the country and within the country - against allegations that I want to cling on to power. … I don't want power, because I don't stand to gain anything from it. I want to work to improve the country. But how to do that, I don't know. It's up to the Constitution."

He isn't saying yes. Neither is he saying no. But, reading between the lines, he is probably more inclined towards yes than no. And, after all, if things don't turn out the way his supporters want, he can always say it wasn't his idea in the first place.

But even those who publicly support extending his term don't want to handle this hot potato. They aren't going to put forward the proposal in any official way. In fact, they are launching a "public campaign", seeking signatures from citizens to submit the big move.

But there is no avoiding the fact that, sooner or later, the issue will have to be tackled and a legally justifiable means will have to be found to push the proposition through.

Also, there is no escaping the fact that tough questions will have to be addressed such as:

1. Who or what agency is going to decide whether two years is sufficient to implement the necessary reforms to ensure that elections will be free, fair and democratic?

2. What guarantee do we have that the proposed reforms will be implemented?

3. What are the criteria of basic reforms that will have to be met to make sure they are genuine reforms that meet with the people's expectations?

4. What if the voters reject the draft constitution but support the "reforms before elections" concept in the referendum? What if it's the other way round?

5. If the "reforms before elections" proposal is accepted, what will be the role of the National Council for Peace and Order (NCPO)? Will the proposed reforms include transformation of the NCPO? In other words, which mouse will bell the cat?

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Call-for-reforms-before-elections-forces-a-detour--30262094.html


-- The Nation 2015-06-11

[NeverSure]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

[KarenBravo]

Seems to me that they are desperate to stop the red-shirts gaining power again, as they would if there were free and fair elections.

The ruling elite are desperate.

Time and history is not on their side.

[Bannum opinions]

"Reform...........Before elections"

The good ole' PDRC mantra.

But what is "Reform" in this context?

One would get a starkly opposite answer depending who is asked...Be it an anti-Democrat or a Democracy advocate.

This kerfuffle is all about one side trying to assert themselves.

I don't have to tell you which side that is.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Bannum opinions

[phoenixdoglover]

I must admit, at this point I'm pretty confused by what the agenda is regarding "reforms". This is probably because the reform concept has not moved from the "idea phase" to the "objective phase".

Consider in the above article that reform is basically defined as "free, fair, and democratic" elections. While I have no problem with that idea, can anyone point to any reform actions that are directed toward that?

Why do I have the sense that this reform agenda is just a giant excuse for inaction?

[ExPratt]

The danger is of course they have to keep their backers happy. Water it down too much and they'll all be out closing airports , Disrupting government business and blocking Poling offices as soon as a democratic Government is elected. They have done their best to disrupt the people they fear are an enemy of Thailand or to their own control of Thailand. Would they be happy with a Government made up of their old enemies ex supporters or followers. If that is not acceptable then the constitution will be Handicapped against those people and would not be accepted in Referendum

[Bakseeda]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

Okay, so give all the Thai peoples a vote , and, What will they do..... Sell it to the highest bidder... Are you going to tell me that you believe Thai peoples who blatantly sell their very valuable vote, Are you going to tell me that those same peoples deserve a vote..? They have exactly what they deserve... A Military Junta... and luckily for them , what seems to be a caring one.... Lucky for us Farangs if we don't like it we can close the door behind us... But, as I see the countries infrastructure functioning better now than ever in my thirteen years of living in Thailand, I see happy peoples still working and still smiling, I see happy children still getting to school.... I see trains running, busses running, I see internal investment up and up... What I don't see are corrupt politicians with their noses deep in the trough of taxpayers moneys.... What did John Lennon say...."Give peace a chance"....... Stupid Farangs should keep their noses out of Thai business... and ...Give peace a chance...!! Pass a Chang please...

[rubl]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

'blatant' attempt?

Anyway, what 'key positions' are you talking about? Anything to do with a referendum or a detour in the PM's roadmap?

[rubl]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

'blatant' attempt?

Anyway, what 'key positions' are you talking about? Anything to do with a referendum or a detour in the PM's roadmap?

[ExPratt]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

Okay, so give all the Thai peoples a vote , and, What will they do..... Sell it to the highest bidder... Are you going to tell me that you believe Thai peoples who blatantly sell their very valuable vote, Are you going to tell me that those same peoples deserve a vote..? They have exactly what they deserve... A Military Junta... and luckily for them , what seems to be a caring one.... Lucky for us Farangs if we don't like it we can close the door behind us... But, as I see the countries infrastructure functioning better now than ever in my thirteen years of living in Thailand, I see happy peoples still working and still smiling, I see happy children still getting to school.... I see trains running, busses running, I see internal investment up and up... What I don't see are corrupt politicians with their noses deep in the trough of taxpayers moneys.... What did John Lennon say...."Give peace a chance"....... Stupid Farangs should keep their noses out of Thai business... and ...Give peace a chance...!! Pass a Chang please...

John Lennon liked a bit of Acid as well

[rubl]

I must admit, at this point I'm pretty confused by what the agenda is regarding "reforms". This is probably because the reform concept has not moved from the "idea phase" to the "objective phase".

Consider in the above article that reform is basically defined as "free, fair, and democratic" elections. While I have no problem with that idea, can anyone point to any reform actions that are directed toward that?

Why do I have the sense that this reform agenda is just a giant excuse for inaction?

Absolutely. The PM should forget about all the interrupts, requests from the USA, EC, Japanese and who over, forget all requests to swing magic wand A44 around. Drop it. Get on with the reforms.

Furthermore I think we foreign posters here on TVF should for a group to protest the lack of information we receive and demand a weekly meeting with the PM to be brought up-to-date with reforms.

[JOC]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

Okay, so give all the Thai peoples a vote , and, What will they do..... Sell it to the highest bidder... Are you going to tell me that you believe Thai peoples who blatantly sell their very valuable vote, Are you going to tell me that those same peoples deserve a vote..? They have exactly what they deserve... A Military Junta... and luckily for them , what seems to be a caring one.... Lucky for us Farangs if we don't like it we can close the door behind us... But, as I see the countries infrastructure functioning better now than ever in my thirteen years of living in Thailand, I see happy peoples still working and still smiling, I see happy children still getting to school.... I see trains running, busses running, I see internal investment up and up... What I don't see are corrupt politicians with their noses deep in the trough of taxpayers moneys.... What did John Lennon say...."Give peace a chance"....... Stupid Farangs should keep their noses out of Thai business... and ...Give peace a chance...!! Pass a Chang please...

So according to you Thai people are too stupid to vote??

All the content people you are seeing everywhere, are simply the grassroots once again being told to know their place in the name of the institution, the flag and Lord Buddha!!

Dear Mr P. Time to scrap "playing democracy" and put the uniforms back on. Your rubber stamp "government" might fool a few domestically, but nobody abroad are impressed!!

Sure it is a pure coincidence that Suthep have decided to leave "monk hood" just at the same time as "reform before elections" appears again. Time for him to get his reward for pawn-services delivered!!

[heybruce]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

'blatant' attempt?

Anyway, what 'key positions' are you talking about? Anything to do with a referendum or a detour in the PM's roadmap?

"A proportional voting system would encourage smaller parties and coalition governments in the lower house of parliament, while the upper house would be filled with a mix of candidates nominated by committee or selected by professional groups, including one dominated by former military figures. Under certain circumstances, the prime minister could be appointed from outside parliament. Watchdog agencies perceived to be tied to the establishment would get new powers. Thus, unelected elites could mind the store, rather than ordinary voters -- thought to be too susceptible to populist blandishments." http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-04-20/thailand-needs-elected-leaders-not-a-new-constitution

Of course you already knew that, didn't you?

[heybruce]

I thought the reforms were in the undemocratic charter. What additional reforms do they intend to force on Thailand?

[JOC]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

Who are they kidding.

Clearly quite a few posters here!! And ironically those posters don't realize, that the very same elite they so strongly are supporting, wouldn't p**s on them, if they (the posters) were on fire..............

[ExPratt]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

Who are they kidding.

Clearly quite a few posters here!! And ironically those posters don't realize, that the very same elite they so strongly are supporting, wouldn't p**s on them, if they (the posters) were on fire..............

Agree. Who will they go after next

[rubl]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

Who are they kidding.

Clearly quite a few posters here!! And ironically those posters don't realize, that the very same elite they so strongly are supporting, wouldn't p**s on them, if they (the posters) were on fire..............

On the other hand there would be a facebook message or tweet indicating that help was on the way, real soon now, if only democracy was 'restored'.

[rubl]

I thought the reforms were in the undemocratic charter. What additional reforms do they intend to force on Thailand?

Not sure about the 'undemocratic charter', but the English version of the Draft Charter from April 2015 list reforms, but surely not in the level of details you require?

[2fishin2]

FACTOID: Thailand will never be reformed, at least in our lifetime. Now what?

[JOC]

FACTOID: Thailand will never be reformed, at least in our lifetime. Now what?

Now what?

We get on with our small lives, enjoying all the craziness Thailand has to offer!!

Despite all our whining here, I guess we all agree, that the positive here by far outweighs the negative!!

[heybruce]

I thought the reforms were in the undemocratic charter. What additional reforms do they intend to force on Thailand?

Not sure about the 'undemocratic charter', but the English version of the Draft Charter from April 2015 list reforms, but surely not in the level of details you require?

I didn't ask for detail, I asked what additional reforms, i.e. not in the unconstitutional charter, do they intend to force on Thailand. Was the meaning not clear to you?

[rubl]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

'blatant' attempt?

Anyway, what 'key positions' are you talking about? Anything to do with a referendum or a detour in the PM's roadmap?

"A proportional voting system would encourage smaller parties and coalition governments in the lower house of parliament, while the upper house would be filled with a mix of candidates nominated by committee or selected by professional groups, including one dominated by former military figures. Under certain circumstances, the prime minister could be appointed from outside parliament. Watchdog agencies perceived to be tied to the establishment would get new powers. Thus, unelected elites could mind the store, rather than ordinary voters -- thought to be too susceptible to populist blandishments." http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-04-20/thailand-needs-elected-leaders-not-a-new-constitution

Of course you already knew that, didn't you?

I knew about the 'perceived'. I also know about 'proportional representation', The Netherlands uses that, like about 95 other countries. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation ).

So, what 'key positions' ?

Edited June 11, 2015 by rubl

[rubl]

I thought the reforms were in the undemocratic charter. What additional reforms do they intend to force on Thailand?

Not sure about the 'undemocratic charter', but the English version of the Draft Charter from April 2015 list reforms, but surely not in the level of details you require?

I didn't ask for detail, I asked what additional reforms, i.e. not in the unconstitutional charter, do they intend to force on Thailand. Was the meaning not clear to you?

The OP doesn't mention 'additional' reforms, only seeing reforms mentioned put through.

[smedly]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

'blatant' attempt?

Anyway, what 'key positions' are you talking about? Anything to do with a referendum or a detour in the PM's roadmap?

I think he is still under the impression there will be an unelected PM right out of the gate which is of course nonsense

[smedly]

I thought the reforms were in the undemocratic charter. What additional reforms do they intend to force on Thailand?

Not sure about the 'undemocratic charter', but the English version of the Draft Charter from April 2015 list reforms, but surely not in the level of details you require?

I didn't ask for detail, I asked what additional reforms, i.e. not in the unconstitutional charter, do they intend to force on Thailand. Was the meaning not clear to you?

The OP doesn't mention 'additional' reforms, only seeing reforms mentioned put through.

examples of reforms might be bodies like the Police - DSI - NACC - Judicial system, not only the bodies themselves but also how they are controlled, no government should be able to take control of a police force or investigating dept like the DSI or be able to influence offices like the Attorney General - they should all be able to work independently freely without government influence or interference, their primary objective - enforcing the law to all on an equal unhindered basis

[tbthailand]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

Okay, so give all the Thai peoples a vote , and, What will they do..... Sell it to the highest bidder... Are you going to tell me that you believe Thai peoples who blatantly sell their very valuable vote, Are you going to tell me that those same peoples deserve a vote..? They have exactly what they deserve... A Military Junta... and luckily for them , what seems to be a caring one.... Lucky for us Farangs if we don't like it we can close the door behind us... But, as I see the countries infrastructure functioning better now than ever in my thirteen years of living in Thailand, I see happy peoples still working and still smiling, I see happy children still getting to school.... I see trains running, busses running, I see internal investment up and up... What I don't see are corrupt politicians with their noses deep in the trough of taxpayers moneys.... What did John Lennon say...."Give peace a chance"....... Stupid Farangs should keep their noses out of Thai business... and ...Give peace a chance...!! Pass a Chang please...

regarding the tired old horse of vote-buying, please figure it out - it didn't impact the elections. http://www.voanews.com/content/asian-observer-group-commends-thai-election-cites-minor-flaws--125003034/141777.html

And yes, everyone deserves to vote.

And no, a military junta is not what the Thai people, or any other people in the world, "deserve".

Switch to Singha - the owners agree with your amazingly demeaning view of the world...

[Fat Haggis]

What about no military should be able to take control of a Government or do you feel the Armed Forces off limits to any reforms?

[tbthailand]

I thought the reforms were in the undemocratic charter. What additional reforms do they intend to force on Thailand?

As I read it, the additional delay is the goal ... the reforms are fluff...

[JOC]

Mr P's latest road map towards "elite-democracy" :

[Fat Haggis]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

Okay, so give all the Thai peoples a vote , and, What will they do..... Sell it to the highest bidder... Are you going to tell me that you believe Thai peoples who blatantly sell their very valuable vote, Are you going to tell me that those same peoples deserve a vote..? They have exactly what they deserve... A Military Junta... and luckily for them , what seems to be a caring one.... Lucky for us Farangs if we don't like it we can close the door behind us... But, as I see the countries infrastructure functioning better now than ever in my thirteen years of living in Thailand, I see happy peoples still working and still smiling, I see happy children still getting to school.... I see trains running, busses running, I see internal investment up and up... What I don't see are corrupt politicians with their noses deep in the trough of taxpayers moneys.... What did John Lennon say...."Give peace a chance"....... Stupid Farangs should keep their noses out of Thai business... and ...Give peace a chance...!! Pass a Chang please...

What a Thai choses to do with his vote should have no bearing on any farangs that doesn't have one, it's their country and if they vote Ronald MacDonald in as PM it's THEIR choice.

Why does it matter to you so much what or who a Thai votes for on their elections, you think the Thais gave a toss about how the farangs voted in the last UK election?

Leave them to it, their mess, they can clean it up.

All we can do is sit back and have opinions that are about as much use as water through a sieve trying to filter out goodness!!!