Big Impact Expected From Tougher Visa Rules

[Gonzo the Face]

Instead of sightseeing, these tourists have taken advantage of the visa exemption by getting married to Thai women "for reasons other than love", and have conducted business here. Many of them have not paid tax.

Foreigners not paying tax is a big problem -- There is nowhere else to go for revenue, as all Thai business owners are law-abiding and proudly pay all taxes due already.

I hope they have and are using data to drive policy. Personally I can't imagine that lost business tax revenue comes anywhere close to the inflow of foreign money "tourists" bring with them.

Chuck

well how many law abaiding Thai businessman do you know???LOL

gee even the cops dont obey the laws that dont suit them

But I would make a guess that this is their country and they are not foreigners. ????

I would think it is not in our jurisdiction to copy them or punish them... we are guests, remember

[marquess]

The sand has been running out of the proverbial Dolly for a long time, and not it may have finally gone. This coupled with the downgraded night life, makes the place less attractive for long term stayers. As to the police general saying that people are marry Thai women for reasons, other than love, so that they could get visas. What an A*s*. One would have thought that marriage entitled one to real benefits here, like citizenship, and gov benifits, and equal rights. In my six and a half years of being here and five of being married I have not come across anyone who has married for a visa.

[sossn]

I think these new rules are causing chaos for many people and that thailand will miss out on business as i have spoken to several people who buy goods in Thailand because they are married to Thai will now do business elsewhere.

Furthermore no one has been able to explain if a farang can obtain a multiple entry tourist visa in his own country and what are the rules and regulations in regard to stay in Thailand on a purchased Tourist visa if anyone can inform would be greatly appreciated

[bdenner]

Here we go again You lot are making me dizzy and in doing so confusing the FACTS.

[john b good]

I would like to address this to those people who seem to feel that Thailand should be a bowl of cherries , just here for their plucking. "YOU ARE A GUEST IN THAILAND". You are here because you chose too be. But do not expect a special program tailored for each and every whinger out there because the law does not fit them. Thai law is here to protect Thailand not YOU specifically.

the whole thing is so absolutely ludicrous it defies description.

how many billion baht is the marketing department of thai government pouring into worldwide advertising and pr campaigns to ATTRACT more people to come to the kingdom, pretty please?

Yes they do !!! They are trying and do attract TOURISTS", and they make it much more easy to get into the country by having visa on arrival for TOURISTS. They also make it easy to re-enter for up to 90 days for TOURISTS. Those cheap charlie whingers posting here do not want to be tourists, they want to stay here for as long as they want, as in living here, not being a tourist. .... and because the law has turned a blind eye for some years, too many of the whingers have stayed and spent some money in bars getting drunk,, then you seem to feel this is your god given right.

Grow up, respect the law or get out its that simple.

Step back and think a moment..... is it as easy for a Thai to get into your home country, and can they do border runs in your country. I doubt it , then why should you expect it in someone's elses country. Other than spending money getting drunk and living cheap, what are you contributing to the good of the country???

their government maintains offices in every major country for the only purpose of attracting and enticing folks to come and spend some money.

This is correct , as does your home country I am sure. And then your country makes it much harder for them to get into that country.

Scizophrenic as can be, while marketing is spending billions of tax baht on trying to attract visitors, another department of the bureaucracy, called Immigration, is paranoically issuing new rules effectively discouraging people from coming and/or staying/investing in the Kingdom.

They offer Tourist Visa from or through and every Royal Thai Embassy, and/or Royal Thai Consulate in the world, but whingers think this is too much effort to put out , after all it will slow them down for spending their thousands of dollars, milking a system that has had a blind eye towards them before, and they have abused the system. Now its time to pay the piper.

Another beautiful example of the usual insanity of bureaucracies (by no means confined to Thailand)

Perhaps, but is your home country any different ??

Sooner or later even they will find out that visitors have choices...that there are many many nice countries to visit, live, invest and spend money.

Yes this is true, and if the Thai system of laws offends you, then take your own advice .... Find this other country, that will make you happy. This will not only make you whingers happy, it will make all the rest of us expats, who do live by and up to the law, happy.

Consider this. There are many types of visas available for those who wish to stay here. Push away from the bar and get on the internet one day and look into it. Yes it will take a little effort, but that is your responsibility to do it, if you wish to stay here and spend your vast sum of money.

If you fall into the cracks and there is no visa available to meet your particular needs, then guess what, maybe you don't belong here. You want to make an estimate of how many times each day Thai's or other foreigners are told that by embassy's and/or consulates around the world, when trying to get into a foreign country???

Get off your high horse and stop feeling so superior to the citizens of this country. Simple get the proper visa, get legal, or if that is too much for you or cannot otherwise be done..... get out, go somewhere where you can drink in peace.

Goodbye land of no more smiles.. I wish you well in your new chosen location and much happiness.

If you love Thailand and wish to spend time in this beautiful country, which you apparently do, as you are here, then live up to and respect its laws.

OMHO

I agree in principal Gonzo. IMHO has become a haven for the dregs of society. It won't do any harm (a lot of good in fact) to have things cleaned up a bit.

I do think though the people who are gonna be the main beneficiaries in all this "who hah" are those who run these little and not so little visa "help" service agencies.

And just imagine all those big buses that currently travel each day with people on border runs all being parked up.

It will all sort itself out in the wash (wash being the appropriate word as in being cleaned up)

For George and his mates, keep up the good work in keeping everyone as best informed as can be.

[Gonzo the Face]

I dont claim to have a clue about this but common sense tells me the Land borders are going to be where problems are. I flew into Bangkok yesterday, I am Australian so VOA. I use Thailand as a Hub....I have about 25 VOA this year and passport is 3 years old.....so you can imagine the number.

If this is to be enforced at the Airport it will mean screening and checking by Travel Agents and Airlines before someone gets on a plane. If its like now where nobody seems to know for sure and Thai Immigration have some different interpretation its going to be a real mess. Suppose people stuck at the airport will fill the new place.

Land Borders........ pretty easy to turn them back and they are not in Thailand so no problem. Airport a lot different. My common sense ..... or lack of,suggests this scenarion. Like others I dont know for sure.

I don't think it is Thailand's responsibility to let you enter the country, nor to get you back to some other point, if you try and get into Thailand illegally. I would think, you will pay for a ticket out, which, I think you should already have, or perhaps there will be a detention center or holding area until someone in your family sends some money. I also believe there is a ruling [law] that you need 10,000 baht to support your self if coming into the country VOA

[Martin]

I am finding that there is disquiet (which I sympathise with) amongst middle-class Thais about what they see as the large number of 'farang' men coming in, who bring with them (in the euphemistic words of the acedemics) no 'social capital'.

With the politicians and the bureaucrats aware of this, we can expect a tightening-up aimed at keeping out 'bad' foreigners every time there is an 'excuse' like a dodgy teacher being deported.

Remember that the Thais who would like to see the back of these 'bad' foreigners are not ones who will lose out financially by it. However, an 'excuse' for the tightening-up is needed, to give to those Thais who will be hit financially.

In the longer term, Thailand can expect lots of 'good', and well-off, foreigners wanting to settle here in retirement to avoid the winter-heating bills, and other nastinesses, of living in many other parts of the world.

Catering to middle-class foreigner retirees is likely to be better business than catering to tourists, in the future.

[Kaojai]

I guess we file this under "not smart enough."

On the contary, The Thais are being very smart. A poster mentioned about the advertising abroad, this is exactly the point. Thailand wants foreign people in thailand, or rather they want foreign investment....the average sex tourist who does a 30 day run isnt the sort of person that LOS wants.

On the other hand, a businessman who wants to legitimately set up a company that pays taxes and employs Thai personnel is welcome via a work permit......but at the end of the day, its THEIR country.

Yes, exactly. If you are a tourist, come for a month or two, spend your money and go home.

If you're a legitimate business person, go about your business in a legitimate way.

If you're retired, get a nonimmigrant 'O-A' and enjoy your stay in Thailand while spending your money there. Thailand wants you because of your financial impact not because inebriated layabouts improve the landscape.

Thailand is not a registered charity nor designated refugee camp for foreigners who can't afford to live in their own country.

The financial requirements for a nonimmigrant visa in Thailand are set pretty low. If you can't meet them, you're not going to be contributing that much to the Thai economy. The Malaysia deal sounds a little more inviting in terms of the length of the visa, but you still have to put money in a local bank account and some of the provinces put a minimum foreign real estate purchase price at nearly US$90,000 which is still going to be too much for those who can't meet the requirements for Thailand.

If all the sex tourists and guys who spend 23 hours a day in the bar beers shift from Thailand to Malaysia (booze is quite expensive there, I believe) it won't be a bad thing for Thailand and Malaysia will probably become a whole lot less inviting very quickly.

[loveandlaughter]

A bit rough Mr Gonzo the Face

The Herald article does put it all very succiently.

As does Marquess......

The bar-sex-tourism thing is running out of steam.......even Michel Houellebecq said in interviews about his book Platform - in which the narrator set up a resorty for sex tourists (of both sexes) only to have it blown up by Muslim extremists - that if he had been a bit more risque and up to date he would have set it in Cambodia.

This must be what is meant by not marrying for love, as they cannot see why anyone would marry a bar girl

[massein]

I am finding that there is disquiet (which I sympathise with) amongst middle-class Thais about what they see as the large number of 'farang' men coming in, who bring with them (in the euphemistic words of the acedemics) no 'social capital'.

With the politicians and the bureaucrats aware of this, we can expect a tightening-up aimed at keeping out 'bad' foreigners every time there is an 'excuse' like a dodgy teacher being deported.

Remember that the Thais who would like to see the back of these 'bad' foreigners are not ones who will lose out financially by it. However, an 'excuse' for the tightening-up is needed, to give to those Thais who will be hit financially.

In the longer term, Thailand can expect lots of 'good', and well-off, foreigners wanting to settle here in retirement to avoid the winter-heating bills, and other nastinesses, of living in many other parts of the world.

Catering to middle-class foreigner retirees is likely to be better business than catering to tourists, in the future.

What about the Gold Card

[Mosha]

I looked at the Thai Consulate in Hull (UK) website and came up with a condensed version of the changes from a tourist point. The websites front page does state however that no official word has come from the Immigration Beaureau

http://www.thaiconsul-uk.com/

http://www.thaiconsul-uk.com/pdfs/Visas%20...0Oct%202006.pdf

As for the tax side of things. How do you prove you are not working/earning an income whilst in Thailand. I'm on a O type visa and living off my pension. I am now considering going for an early upgrade to this visa. Either retirement or the support, although my visa will see me until August next year, I'm concerned about any financial changes that may come about.

Edited September 16, 2006 by Mosha

[pakwan]

With the politicians and the bureaucrats aware of this, we can expect a tightening-up aimed at keeping out 'bad' foreigners every time there is an 'excuse' like a dodgy teacher being deported.

The "Dodgy Teacher" had just pasted the crtiria for a job here and would still be here if HE hadn't tried to "Claim the Fame". Yes, it's good that he's gone but still, nobody even knew.

Remember that the Thais who would like to see the back of these 'bad' foreigners are not ones who will lose out financially by it. However, an 'excuse' for the tightening-up is needed, to give to those Thais who will be hit financially.

The majority of the Thai's that will be hit financially will be hookers. Self-respecting businessmen, Married for love men and Teachers who may pop in to a bar from time to time are usually there with co-workers and not there to drop off a bar stool, stupidly drunk, and into waiting pocketbook of a strange female with a pair of revolving panties. Most of the rest will be you fake tourists and illegal bar owners who have spurned your country to hide in this one. You are the ONLY targets of these rule changes and rightfully so. If other countries did this there might not have been a 9/11 or London based terrorist sect.

In the longer term, Thailand can expect lots of 'good', and well-off, foreigners wanting to settle here in retirement to avoid the winter-heating bills, and other nastinesses, of living in many other parts of the world.

Do you really believe that 10,000 new retirees a year will spend what 1,000,000 tourists will? Are you aware of just how many farang lease a piece of land, build huge houses on it and peddle them to their countymen? The only Thai's that benifit are the landOWNER and their families. You check the internet and see if you can "Buy Your Dreamhome" for a relitively small price. They're all priced out of the range of 75% of the Thai people and most of the rest wouldn't buy them anyway because they know the land wouldn't be theirs. Start your search near Pattaya and Hua Hin.

Anybody coming here completely on the up and up should do so. Step right up, sign your name, hand out a few photos and photocopies, fill out the right paperwork and get on with your life. The rest of you whiners should just piss off so they'll run out of reasons to change the laws.

Sorry, nothing humble about my opinion.

Catering to middle-class foreigner retirees is likely to be better business than catering to tourists, in the future.

[brahmburgers]

Weeding a garden with a jack hammer, this bit of 'house cleaning' is typical Thai bureaucratic heavy-handed silliness. When they start hearing the wails of the millions of Thais who are tied in to the tourist industry, these rules will ease. This is a bureaucracy that's beholden to a man named Thaksin who no longer speaks in public because nearly everything he says has to be retracted the next day. That's their role model.

[Soju]

On the contary, The Thais are being very smart. A poster mentioned about the advertising abroad, this is exactly the point. Thailand wants foreign people in thailand, or rather they want foreign investment....the average sex tourist who does a 30 day run isnt the sort of person that LOS wants.

On the other hand, a businessman who wants to legitimately set up a company that pays taxes and employs Thai personnel is welcome via a work permit.

Some businessmen may see an opportunity from abroad, and decide then and there to get a business visa and come to Thailand and start some business. But for many, it's not so quick and easy. They come once to Thailand, maybe on vacation, or maybe with the idea of trying to do some business, but not knowing exactly what they're looking for. They arrive without any visa and just get the 30-day stamp. They like what they see, but not wanting to rush into anything they hold off. They come back again a few more times to thoroughly check out the situation before deciding to establish their small business in Thailand. With the new enforcement of the law, this method is no longer possible without first obtaining a visa because they are limited to 3 entries every 180 days. If someone is really serious and already has an established business contact in Thailand, they should be able to get a business visa. For someone who is just in the preliminary stage and who doesn't yet have established business contacts, they have no way to get a business visa. Thus, IMHO, the new rules will not likely have an effect on big foreign businesses starting up in Thailand but could potentially have a large impact on small foreign businesses starting in Thailand.

[Big Dogster]

I would like to address this to those people who seem to feel that Thailand should be a bowl of cherries , just here for their plucking. "YOU ARE A GUEST IN THAILAND". You are here because you chose too be. But do not expect a special program tailored for each and every whinger out there because the law does not fit them. Thai law is here to protect Thailand not YOU specifically.

the whole thing is so absolutely ludicrous it defies description.

how many billion baht is the marketing department of thai government pouring into worldwide advertising and pr campaigns to ATTRACT more people to come to the kingdom, pretty please?

Yes they do !!! They are trying and do attract TOURISTS", and they make it much more easy to get into the country by having visa on arrival for TOURISTS. They also make it easy to re-enter for up to 90 days for TOURISTS. Those cheap charlie whingers posting here do not want to be tourists, they want to stay here for as long as they want, as in living here, not being a tourist. .... and because the law has turned a blind eye for some years, too many of the whingers have stayed and spent some money in bars getting drunk,, then you seem to feel this is your god given right.

Grow up, respect the law or get out its that simple.

Step back and think a moment..... is it as easy for a Thai to get into your home country, and can they do border runs in your country. I doubt it , then why should you expect it in someone's elses country. Other than spending money getting drunk and living cheap, what are you contributing to the good of the country???

their government maintains offices in every major country for the only purpose of attracting and enticing folks to come and spend some money.

This is correct , as does your home country I am sure. And then your country makes it much harder for them to get into that country.

Scizophrenic as can be, while marketing is spending billions of tax baht on trying to attract visitors, another department of the bureaucracy, called Immigration, is paranoically issuing new rules effectively discouraging people from coming and/or staying/investing in the Kingdom.

They offer Tourist Visa from or through and every Royal Thai Embassy, and/or Royal Thai Consulate in the world, but whingers think this is too much effort to put out , after all it will slow them down for spending their thousands of dollars, milking a system that has had a blind eye towards them before, and they have abused the system. Now its time to pay the piper.

Another beautiful example of the usual insanity of bureaucracies (by no means confined to Thailand)

Perhaps, but is your home country any different ??

Sooner or later even they will find out that visitors have choices...that there are many many nice countries to visit, live, invest and spend money.

Yes this is true, and if the Thai system of laws offends you, then take your own advice .... Find this other country, that will make you happy. This will not only make you whingers happy, it will make all the rest of us expats, who do live by and up to the law, happy.

Consider this. There are many types of visas available for those who wish to stay here. Push away from the bar and get on the internet one day and look into it. Yes it will take a little effort, but that is your responsibility to do it, if you wish to stay here and spend your vast sum of money.

If you fall into the cracks and there is no visa available to meet your particular needs, then guess what, maybe you don't belong here. You want to make an estimate of how many times each day Thai's or other foreigners are told that by embassy's and/or consulates around the world, when trying to get into a foreign country???

Get off your high horse and stop feeling so superior to the citizens of this country. Simple get the proper visa, get legal, or if that is too much for you or cannot otherwise be done..... get out, go somewhere where you can drink in peace.

Goodbye land of no more smiles.. I wish you well in your new chosen location and much happiness.

If you love Thailand and wish to spend time in this beautiful country, which you apparently do, as you are here, then live up to and respect its laws.

OMHO

You're the one who needs to get off his high horse. They will be coming after you soon enough on whatever proper visa you were able to scam

[pascharay]

I would like to address this to those people who seem to feel that Thailand should be a bowl of cherries , just here for their plucking. "YOU ARE A GUEST IN THAILAND". You are here because you chose too be. But do not expect a special program tailored for each and every whinger out there because the law does not fit them. Thai law is here to protect Thailand not YOU specifically.

the whole thing is so absolutely ludicrous it defies description.

how many billion baht is the marketing department of thai government pouring into worldwide advertising and pr campaigns to ATTRACT more people to come to the kingdom, pretty please?

Yes they do !!! They are trying and do attract TOURISTS", and they make it much more easy to get into the country by having visa on arrival for TOURISTS. They also make it easy to re-enter for up to 90 days for TOURISTS. Those cheap charlie whingers posting here do not want to be tourists, they want to stay here for as long as they want, as in living here, not being a tourist. .... and because the law has turned a blind eye for some years, too many of the whingers have stayed and spent some money in bars getting drunk,, then you seem to feel this is your god given right.

Grow up, respect the law or get out its that simple.

Step back and think a moment..... is it as easy for a Thai to get into your home country, and can they do border runs in your country. I doubt it , then why should you expect it in someone's elses country. Other than spending money getting drunk and living cheap, what are you contributing to the good of the country???

their government maintains offices in every major country for the only purpose of attracting and enticing folks to come and spend some money.

This is correct , as does your home country I am sure. And then your country makes it much harder for them to get into that country.

Scizophrenic as can be, while marketing is spending billions of tax baht on trying to attract visitors, another department of the bureaucracy, called Immigration, is paranoically issuing new rules effectively discouraging people from coming and/or staying/investing in the Kingdom.

They offer Tourist Visa from or through and every Royal Thai Embassy, and/or Royal Thai Consulate in the world, but whingers think this is too much effort to put out , after all it will slow them down for spending their thousands of dollars, milking a system that has had a blind eye towards them before, and they have abused the system. Now its time to pay the piper.

Another beautiful example of the usual insanity of bureaucracies (by no means confined to Thailand)

Perhaps, but is your home country any different ??

Sooner or later even they will find out that visitors have choices...that there are many many nice countries to visit, live, invest and spend money.

Yes this is true, and if the Thai system of laws offends you, then take your own advice .... Find this other country, that will make you happy. This will not only make you whingers happy, it will make all the rest of us expats, who do live by and up to the law, happy.

Consider this. There are many types of visas available for those who wish to stay here. Push away from the bar and get on the internet one day and look into it. Yes it will take a little effort, but that is your responsibility to do it, if you wish to stay here and spend your vast sum of money.

If you fall into the cracks and there is no visa available to meet your particular needs, then guess what, maybe you don't belong here. You want to make an estimate of how many times each day Thai's or other foreigners are told that by embassy's and/or consulates around the world, when trying to get into a foreign country???

Get off your high horse and stop feeling so superior to the citizens of this country. Simple get the proper visa, get legal, or if that is too much for you or cannot otherwise be done..... get out, go somewhere where you can drink in peace.

Goodbye land of no more smiles.. I wish you well in your new chosen location and much happiness.

If you love Thailand and wish to spend time in this beautiful country, which you apparently do, as you are here, then live up to and respect its laws.

OMHO

You're the one who needs to get off his high horse. They will be coming after you soon enough on whatever proper visa you were able to scam

well said, first they come for the clowns.

[Aviador]

I vacationed in southern Thailand in 2003. What started out as a two week stay turned into almost 6 weeks. I loved the climate, the people as well as the low cost of living. After selling my home in the US I arrived here in Khaolak on March 20th 2004. I was 69 years of age at the time intended to spend the rest of my days here by applying for a Non O retirement visa. I transferred 3 Million Baht from one US into a Thai account.

Renting a small house, I met a young fellow here in town, married, one baby who operated a transportation company, spoke reasonable English but needed some money to expand his fleet while building a restaurant at the same time on his in-laws property. I lent him close to a million Baht. He thought I was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Suwan seemed to have connections and promised to get my non O retirement visa in short order. We traveled to Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur and supposedly had everything going.

Meanwhile I was involved in a car accident in Phuket and this is where he was indispensable dealing with the police, the insurer and the hospital. The insurance company balked at paying, since the victim was sent to a hospital which wanted to amputate the poor man’s leg above the knee. I however insisted on a transfer to the International Hospital where they did save the fellow’s limb. I paid all the hospital charges which came to just under 600,000 Baht, as well as the 200,000 Baht settlement for the family. I still had money in a US account which was now transferred into my account here. That left me with just under a million.

Then along came the tsunami. Suwan was visibly upset, having lost 4 out of 6 Minibuses as well 1 driver and 2 tourists that fateful day. I told him not to worry about the money, we will manage. The insurance company did send a check for 180,000 Baht which promptly bounced. Since I still had money in the bank I managed fine just on whatever social security sends me every month. One day Suwan received a letter stating additional customers had started a class action suit against the parent company of the insurer and a hearing would be held at the court in Phuket. I attended 2 sessions with Suwan but since I had fallen on my butt 2 weeks prior, injuring my spine, sitting was most uncomfortable. Besides I could not understand the proceedings anyway which were all in Thai, I therefore let him go by himself from then on. One day he called and said he had a check in the amount of 148,000 Baht in his Hands. Well, better than nothing I thought. He had my bank book and asked me to send him a signed power of attorney form, which his mother would bring up in order to withdraw money to pay the lawyer. Done deal.

That was the last anyone, including his family heard from him for 2 weeks. Somehow

I had a feeling something was amiss A trip to the bank confirmed my worst fears. He had cleaned me out. He didn’t even leave me enough for a bottle of cheap Mekong whiskey. His family knows where he is (in Phuket) but won't tell me. Funny how quick the smiles disappeared, after my money was gone.

What can I do concerning the new visa regulations? I always hated those visa runs to Ranong anyway. I live frugally and have enough in the Bank again to afford a trip to Malaysia, or other country, except the US. Too far anyway. I wouldn’t mind doing it once a year or semi-annually. I had purchased a new Mitsubishi pickup paying cash for it. Suwan however, without my knowledge had registered the truck in HIS name and refuses to send me the papers. (Knowing him, he probably borrowed money on it) I have only the receipt. He also still has my pass book. I can’t even prove I did have 2 million in the account at one time.

I can not, nor would I want stay away for 3 months. I have a house with a 4year pre-paid lease, a dog, the truck and care for a couple of kids. I spend all my money here in town.

But what are the alternatives?

[John K]

Objective Analysis

The story in post # 1 reflectS that the Thais do know it will hurt and that it is a deliberate move to make it more difficult to stay in Thailand. I personally feel they have significantly underestimated what impact it will have on the Thai economy.

The story also reads like the people that are on tourist visas deliberately avoid other visas. That is completely opposite of the truth. You can go just about anyplace and overhear conversations of people trying to figure out a way to qualify for longer stay visas that don’t require a 30 day visa run.

All sectors of the Thai economy are to some degree supported by people who the Thais look to unload. From apartments to small local economies like street vendors and restaurants. No doubt some neighborhoods will suffer more that others, but 10 to 20 Billion ThB per year will be tough to swallow. That will come from lost income and the need to pay proper wages for teachers. It certainly looks like a sure fire way to get incumbents out of office as it is timed just before elections. Where so many have failed in getting the Thaksin and the TRT out of office, the Royal Thai Police Commandant has done it with the stroke of a pen.

Reading between the lines it looks like they want to force non Thai bars out of business. One observation is non Thai bars understand customer service better than Thai bars. If this would last for any length of time Thailand would not look as sweet to tourists as it does today. People would be expecting to get ripped off just for sitting down and ordering a cold beer on a hot day.

It looks like this will phase in over 3 months. The first and the biggest group will disappear next month, then after that people who arrived in August and finally people who arrive this month will be forced to leave around new year. So it should be like 70% in October, 25% in November, and 5% in December. I am sure many will be doing a last visa run near the end of this month to buy a few extra weeks thus 70% for October. Add that to the political uncertainty and tourists opting out for other destinations, and by the end of October the semi official start of the high tourist season many tourist destinations will be mostly vacant.

Fallout from the Thai education system will start to show more. Not the effects on teachers but the effects on businesses. Simply many Thais have a paper education and rely on others to help carry them. Remove many of the educated westerners on tourist visas who are helping out and the possibility of business failures goes up significantly. I suspect that this will insignificant at the start but become more pronounced over time.

Typically I have seen Thais try to compensate for income loss by raising prices and not following the rules of economics and lowering prices. This practice will quicken the end of Thailand as a low price desirable tourist destination.

Teachers will demand higher wages and get them. 50000 ThB at a public school will probably be the low end of the wage scale. Also the practice of having the teacher foot the bill for the visa and work permit will come to a grinding halt over night as teacher will outright refuse. There is money for that but in many places that has found it’s way to someone’s wallet in the school or school system.

The thought also occurred to me that if this is Thaksin’s doing in some way because he feels he can never recover and be PM again, the thought of Saddam Hussein retreating from Kuwait and the oil fields burning crossed my mind.

If the Thais want to come out on top then they should add to this plan by making working visas easier to get. I am sure they will be delightfully surprised with the outcome. Tourist visas are simply a last resort because all attempts at other visas have failed.

[blade63]

I would like to address this to those people who seem to feel that Thailand should be a bowl of cherries , just here for their plucking. "YOU ARE A GUEST IN THAILAND". You are here because you chose too be. But do not expect a special program tailored for each and every whinger out there because the law does not fit them. Thai law is here to protect Thailand not YOU specifically.

the whole thing is so absolutely ludicrous it defies description.

how many billion baht is the marketing department of thai government pouring into worldwide advertising and pr campaigns to ATTRACT more people to come to the kingdom, pretty please?

Yes they do !!! They are trying and do attract TOURISTS", and they make it much more easy to get into the country by having visa on arrival for TOURISTS. They also make it easy to re-enter for up to 90 days for TOURISTS. Those cheap charlie whingers posting here do not want to be tourists, they want to stay here for as long as they want, as in living here, not being a tourist. .... and because the law has turned a blind eye for some years, too many of the whingers have stayed and spent some money in bars getting drunk,, then you seem to feel this is your god given right.

Grow up, respect the law or get out its that simple.

Step back and think a moment..... is it as easy for a Thai to get into your home country, and can they do border runs in your country. I doubt it , then why should you expect it in someone's elses country. Other than spending money getting drunk and living cheap, what are you contributing to the good of the country???

their government maintains offices in every major country for the only purpose of attracting and enticing folks to come and spend some money.

This is correct , as does your home country I am sure. And then your country makes it much harder for them to get into that country.

Scizophrenic as can be, while marketing is spending billions of tax baht on trying to attract visitors, another department of the bureaucracy, called Immigration, is paranoically issuing new rules effectively discouraging people from coming and/or staying/investing in the Kingdom.

They offer Tourist Visa from or through and every Royal Thai Embassy, and/or Royal Thai Consulate in the world, but whingers think this is too much effort to put out , after all it will slow them down for spending their thousands of dollars, milking a system that has had a blind eye towards them before, and they have abused the system. Now its time to pay the piper.

Another beautiful example of the usual insanity of bureaucracies (by no means confined to Thailand)

Perhaps, but is your home country any different ??

Sooner or later even they will find out that visitors have choices...that there are many many nice countries to visit, live, invest and spend money.

Yes this is true, and if the Thai system of laws offends you, then take your own advice .... Find this other country, that will make you happy. This will not only make you whingers happy, it will make all the rest of us expats, who do live by and up to the law, happy.

Consider this. There are many types of visas available for those who wish to stay here. Push away from the bar and get on the internet one day and look into it. Yes it will take a little effort, but that is your responsibility to do it, if you wish to stay here and spend your vast sum of money.

If you fall into the cracks and there is no visa available to meet your particular needs, then guess what, maybe you don't belong here. You want to make an estimate of how many times each day Thai's or other foreigners are told that by embassy's and/or consulates around the world, when trying to get into a foreign country???

Get off your high horse and stop feeling so superior to the citizens of this country. Simple get the proper visa, get legal, or if that is too much for you or cannot otherwise be done..... get out, go somewhere where you can drink in peace.

Goodbye land of no more smiles.. I wish you well in your new chosen location and much happiness.

If you love Thailand and wish to spend time in this beautiful country, which you apparently do, as you are here, then live up to and respect its laws.

OMHO

You're the one who needs to get off his high horse. They will be coming after you soon enough on whatever proper visa you were able to scam

well said, first they come for the clowns.

agree. im pretty sure there's till more to come....

[taxexile]

When they start hearing the wails of the millions of Thais who are tied in to the tourist industry, these rules will ease.

the tourist industry will hardly notice any changes.

these new regulations will affect only those who prey on the border hoppers , under the radar business owners and other semi -legals who reside here.

if , as it seems is happeneing , the regulations are clarified and simplified , then those who wish to stay here will have to become fully legal , they are talking about easing the regulations for teacher work permits , others will have to obtain proper visas and meet the conditions , a visa based on retirement or marriage is easy to obtain and offers security here.

those who do the month in month out "oil worker" shuffle will I'm sure be accommodated by immigration , as will the frequent business visitor.

for those who have always existed 'under the radar' so to speak , well maybe its time to move on.

thailand , quite rightly , doesnt want you , and once you go , then those who feed off you will be starved out too. (e.g. dodgy lawyers offering dodgy advice , greedy landlords and business partners who take advantage of your dodgy status ), the businesses you run will close and in many cases that will be a good thing. thailand could do with fewer beer shacks with no customers , sloppily run dive centres and happy shiny property agents. it can only improve things.

if you run a legitimate business or want to start one , then seek the advice of a reputable legal firm and meet the requirements , if you cant meet the requirements then move to a less regulated country. if you have a girlfriend and you are in love , then why not get married.

these regulations are still less stringent than those in our home countries.

thailands reputation has hit rock bottom abroad over the past few years and hopefully this will be the start of a long overdue clean up.

the presence of so many falangs here along with the activities they sometimes engage in has caused an upsurge of resentment from locals. yes , the thais are quick to blame foriegners for anything amiss here , but foriegners have given thais many reasons to resent.

a few will be unfairly affected by this , but not too many.

"We will check whether they are really in love or not," Suwat Thamrongsrisakul, the head of the department, said at a news conference.

this sounds interesting , how will they do that , and what will they do when the wife , sitting in her nice house with a healthy bank account answers them in thai saying that its a terrible marriage and i'll make it worth your while if you dont renew his visa.

it couldnt be easier for a disgruntled misses to lever some advantage.

[LivinLOS]

Aviador..

Unless you have 800k left in the bank (annually and for now) or can make a combination of verifiable incoime and some money in bank to show in excess of 800k annually.. Your screwed and time to return to the US having been screwed and milked by the smiling ones.

Such is Thailand if you dont keep control of your pocketbook unfortunately. Thanks for the baht and goodbye.

[LivinLOS]

When they start hearing the wails of the millions of Thais who are tied in to the tourist industry, these rules will ease.

the tourist industry will hardly notice any changes.

these new regulations will affect only those who prey on the border hoppers , under the radar business owners and other semi -legals who reside here.

if , as it seems is happeneing , the regulations are clarified and simplified , then those who wish to stay here will have to become fully legal , they are talking about easing the regulations for teacher work permits , others will have to obtain proper visas and meet the conditions , a visa based on retirement or marriage is easy to obtain and offers security here.

those who do the month in month out "oil worker" shuffle will I'm sure be accommodated by immigration , as will the frequent business visitor.

for those who have always existed 'under the radar' so to speak , well maybe its time to move on.

thailand , quite rightly , doesnt want you , and once you go , then those who feed off you will be starved out too. (e.g. dodgy lawyers offering dodgy advice , greedy landlords and business partners who take advantage of your dodgy status ), the businesses you run will close and in many cases that will be a good thing. thailand could do with fewer beer shacks with no customers , sloppily run dive centres and happy shiny property agents. it can only improve things.

if you run a legitimate business or want to start one , then seek the advice of a reputable legal firm and meet the requirements , if you cant meet the requirements then move to a less regulated country. if you have a girlfriend and you are in love , then why not get married.

these regulations are still less stringent than those in our home countries.

thailands reputation has hit rock bottom abroad over the past few years and hopefully this will be the start of a long overdue clean up.

the presence of so many falangs here along with the activities they sometimes engage in has caused an upsurge of resentment from locals. yes , the thais are quick to blame foriegners for anything amiss here , but foriegners have given thais many reasons to resent.

a few will be unfairly affected by this , but not too many.

"We will check whether they are really in love or not," Suwat Thamrongsrisakul, the head of the department, said at a news conference.

this sounds interesting , how will they do that , and what will they do when the wife , sitting in her nice house with a healthy bank account answers them in thai saying that its a terrible marriage and i'll make it worth your while if you dont renew his visa.

it couldnt be easier for a disgruntled misses to lever some advantage.

\

While in the grand scheme of things this may be not totally wrong.. In areas like Phuket the economy will nosedive.

If you have any concept of how many normal, high net worth, non working farangs live here you would agree.

I did a random sample in an expat watering hole.. Of the group all were here as long stayers of one kind or another, (not short term tourists).. the sample was 12 - 15 people and there were 3 of us on non imm's.. The rest were mostly Penang triple entry tourists (about 6 or so) and some border hoppers and offshore rotation workers. Of the group only 2 additionals would qualify for non imm's one was the bar owner who could get legal (and should it can be argued) buy hiring more staff, paying more taxes, etc etc etc and the other was over 50 and can retire legally.

So more than 50% of normal expats guys who all have money, dont work here illegally, etc were being told they were no longer welcome. Thats a lot of revenue lost.. Dont care how you want to malign them or thier intentions.. On a fiscal choice basis these guys have no legal avenues to stay and will need to start looking hard at thier choices outside of Thailand.

[astral]

..new rules have been issued because an increasing number of tourists have stayed for extended periods - without paying proper amounts of tax.

Ah yes, the old tax excuse. Investment income is probably taxed at source and not liable under the various Double Taxation Treaties that Thailand has signed.

I am sure that all good Thai citizens, from the Prime Minister down, are paying all the tax they should.

This has also helped them avoid close scrutiny by authorities here and in their homeland.

"We are trying to make it more difficult for bad people to get in," Immigration Police chief Lt General Suwat Thamrongsrisakul said at a press conference yesterday.

"I don't think it's going to hurt good people because they can apply for a tourist visa [in their homeland]," he said.

How will the Embassies and Consulates recognise these bad people

The move is expected to have a big impact on the foreign community and some sectors such as teaching and diving, plus places where there are many bars run by foreigners, such as Pattaya and Chiang Mai.

What about the Thai people who will loose their jobs because the bars and dive schools close?

How does he propose to replace the teachers?

Do the Thai teachers have the skills??

Let's face it the standards of English teaching are pretty appalling and without the help of the foregn teachers will slide even further down the tubes.

What is going to be done to ease the work permit and visa regulations for qualified teachers

so that schools cn afford to employ them.

Suwat conceded the move may cause some problems, but said "maybe we have to do something to make it better [later]".

What an understatement!!!

A source added: "Under the current rules, people from these countries can stay in Thailand for as long as they want. Some even stay here for one year.

Why not make that easier, for people who can prove they can support themselves............?

Instead of sightseeing, these tourists have taken advantage of the visa exemption by getting married to Thai women "for reasons other than love",

You mean hot torrid sex........................

Some said foreigners should abandon Thailand for neighbouring countries, while others predicted it might force school bosses to pay foreign teachers a proper wage or cause a boom in men wanting to marry Thai women.

What other options are there?

Meanwhile, plans are under way to simplify the process for foreign teachers to work here as the current system requires 13 separate steps, which take many months to complete.

Heads of international schools have been meeting with the Immigration Department to try to simplify the process.

Good. Now what about the government schools who deperately need good foreign language teachers??

Thailand recently simplified the process for foreigners who want to become permanent residents. The amount of paperwork required has been slashed and the time involved reportedly cut from more than a year to about four months.

I must have missed that one. When was that announced??

[John K]

Here is a quick math lesson for any influential Thais that may be reading this.

First understand that the people you are targeting stay in apartments and not hotels.

Second assume the average rent is 10000 ThB per month.

Third multiply that by the number of people who you feel will be effected say 50000.

That quickly translates to 500,000,000 (500 million) ThB per month lost and 50000 vacant apartments.

Multiply that times 12 months and you get 6,000,000,000 ( 6 Billion) ThB in lost real estate revenues alone.

I don’t need to tell you what will happen to apartment owners that can’t pay their mortgage.

The question is how long can you keep this up?

How much different is that from what you would expect to gain by them paying taxes with a proper visa?

Edited September 16, 2006 by John K

[Colonel_Mustard]

Here is a quick math lesson for any influential Thais that may be reading this.

First understand that the people you are targeting stay in apartments and not hotels.

Second assume the average rent is 10000 ThB per month.

Third multiply that by the number of people who you feel will be effected say 50000.

That quickly translates to 500,000,000 (500 million) ThB per month lost and 50000 vacant apartments.

Multiply that time 12 months and you get 6,000,000,000 ( 6 Billion) ThB in lost real estate revenues alone.

I don’t need to tell you what will happen to apartment owners that can’t pay their mortgage.

The question is how long can you keep this up?

Does anyone really have any idea of how many people will be affected? I have no real idea but would be very surprised if it was as high as 50,000.

[LivinLOS]

Nationwide !! Are you joking..

Theres 1000's in the little town of Patong alone.. Add in Patts / Jomtien / Upcountry issanites (though I suspect many of those can marry thier way around it) and I would say its conservative.

[ding]

I guess I'll retire in the Philipines, Cambodia... or somewhere else then.

[kozi]

Great news.

This should cut down the numbers of Farang dregs, dross and undesirables who are taking advantage of the lax Thai visitor laws, scamming the system and up to all kinds of illegal activities.

These scum are not community minded people and do not create any benefits for Thailand whatsoever, including the illegal business controllers, bars, pimps etc.

Hopefully this new ACT will make the legitimate Farang long stay residents, (Retired, marrieds, students, skilled workers) presents more valued in Thailand and pave the way for decent Farang communities, especially in Chiang Mai.

As for rest,

Good Ridends

[John K]

We will know in about 6 weeks how many people but there is no doubt that it will be a significant negative cash flow for Thailand. The problem the Thais are trying to fix is ultimately tied to corruption at some level. There will be cries from the Thais very soon. People on 30 day visas are too integrated into the Thai economy. Ripping them out wholesale like this very possibly could kill the host.

[taxexile]

I did a random sample in an expat watering hole.. Of the group all were here as long stayers of one kind or another, (not short term tourists).. the sample was 12 - 15 people and there were 3 of us on non imm's.. The rest were mostly Penang triple entry tourists (about 6 or so) and some border hoppers and offshore rotation workers. Of the group only 2 additionals would qualify for non imm's one was the bar owner who could get legal (and should it can be argued) buy hiring more staff, paying more taxes, etc etc etc and the other was over 50 and can retire legally.

So more than 50% of normal expats guys who all have money, dont work here illegally, etc were being told they were no longer welcome. Thats a lot of revenue lost.. Dont care how you want to malign them or thier intentions.. On a fiscal choice basis these guys have no legal avenues to stay and will need to start looking hard at thier choices outside of Thailand.

i think that immigration are aware that there are a large number of people under 50 who can afford to live here without working and that immigration / consulate officials will soon allow those who can provide proof of bringing money in to the country to be given visas.

rules and regulations are often made on the hoof here , with amendments and alterations coming along as necessary.