American gay couple unable to leave Thailand with daughter

[Franky Bear]

Why do gay couples want children?

Why do straight couples want children?

If you think that is a stupid question, you'd be right.

Well, I think your question is stupid as well.

It's like you're so bigoted that you think gay people are a different SPECIES or something.

Of course not all gay people want children and not all straight people do either.

I think the previous poster is asking, "why do 'any' homosexual couples want children" I think it would be OK for homosexuals to work with children, or maybe even foster them for a few weeks until they get placed with a normal couple. I believe they would look after them well, but I cannot change my mind on this, homosexuals should never be able to adopt them. The kids would just get all mixed up.

I'm astounded at these comments. I'm

Also surprised this hate/bile what ever you want to call it is allowed on the board. Imagine we were talking about back people?

[NoshowJones]

FrankyBear. Only giving my opinion which I'm entitled to do on a public forum.

[Shawn0001]

I don't agree with either, an old guy is going to have some time with his kid, and he only has that 30 year younger wife because he has plenty of money, but two men bringing up a kid together????? that is just cruel to the kid, he/she is going to spend the rest of his/her life wondering "will I call them both dad or what?

His/her mind is going to go all sort of ways, he /she is going to wonder why his pals (that's if he/ she ever has any) have a female mum and a male dad,

and he/she is going to resent the fact that he/she is different from normal people. It is just cruel to bring up a kid in that unnatural way.

You present your imagination as facts. One of my friends at school was brought up in a same sex household, she did not suffer any of the problems you envision.

As far as you know.

Yes, but remember I do actually know this person and witnessed her family life as a child so that comeback is pretty funny coming from someone who likes to decide what will happen in the future to people they do not know.

[Franky Bear]

FrankyBear. Only giving my opinion which I'm entitled to do on a public forum.

Options. It's hate. Vile hate

[NoshowJones]

Shawn0001. I just think it is wrong for same sex people to adopt children. I will respect your opinion, and hope you will respect mine.

[huawei]

^^^ agree but please use more appropriate language to support your argument. I have seen enough mixed up kids with foreigner/ Thai relationships..nothing is perfect...

[Rimmer]

Some posts have been removed, please see the following Forum Rule:

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[NoshowJones]

FrankyBear. Only giving my opinion which I'm entitled to do on a public forum.

Options. It's hate. Vile hate

I have no hatred of homosexuals, none of them have ever done me any harm, but I do hate the damage that could, note I said could, be done to these children.

[Shawn0001]

Why do gay couples want children?

Why do straight couples want children?

If you think that is a stupid question, you'd be right.

Well, I think your question is stupid as well.

It's like you're so bigoted that you think gay people are a different SPECIES or something.

Of course not all gay people want children and not all straight people do either.

Oh dear have I touched a nerve, 5555. I am not bigoted, just wish to expand on my knowledge of human behaviour.

A man & a woman become partners/married/friends and decide to procreate. Normal in nature.

Same sex couple become partners/married/friends cannot procreate. Normal in nature.

Procreation is generally to carry on the family gene pool, which is perfectly natural, and many women have strong maternal instincts, even gay women. So a lesbian couple can realistically have one, or both parners with strong maternal instincts. I cannot understand how a male can have strong maternal instincts. Can you explain to me how this is possible, or are they only trophy children?

Can you understand how anyone or anything has any instinct? It is not something that is easily understood. And saying something happens in nature is not an understanding of how that happens, it is merely an observation that it does indeed happen in nature.

First, it seems that you are confused as to what maternal instict actually means, it is not the desire to procreate, it is the instict to nurture children, the bond between mother and child. Are you asking how gay men can have maternal instinct or how they can have the desire to procreate? I will answer the former.

The part of the brain associated with maternal instinct is the amygdala-centered network, this is the area associated with attention and strong emotions, in women this network naturally turns on during pregnancy or child birth. In parents with both mother and father present, the mother has an active amygdala-centered network but the father does not. However, in cases of single parent fathers a change is observed where the man’s amygdala-centered network switches on providing an increase in maternal instincts. In the same way a woman’s brain rewires during pregnancy, a man’s brain rewires through tending to the baby. Interestingly in homosexual male parents, both men usually have active amygdala-centered networks, meaning that there is no shortage of maternal instinct in male same sex parents. How this effects paternal instincts is another question.

[smutcakes]

Can you understand how anyone or anything has any instinct? It is not something that is easily understood. And saying something happens in nature is not an understanding of how that happens, it is merely an observation that it does indeed happen in nature.

First, it seems that you are confused as to what maternal instict actually means, it is not the desire to procreate, it is the instict to nurture children, the bond between mother and child. Are you asking how gay men can have maternal instinct or how they can have the desire to procreate? I will answer the former.

The part of the brain associated with maternal instinct is the amygdala-centered network, this is the area associated with attention and strong emotions, in women this network naturally turns on during pregnancy or child birth. In parents with both mother and father present, the mother has an active amygdala-centered network but the father does not. However, in cases of single parent fathers a change is observed where the man’s amygdala-centered network switches on providing an increase in maternal instincts. In the same way a woman’s brain rewires during pregnancy, a man’s brain rewires through tending to the baby. Interestingly in homosexual male parents, both men usually have active amygdala-centered networks, meaning that there is no shortage of maternal instinct in male same sex parents. How this effects paternal instincts is another question.

Are you a professor on this? Maybe you can link me to your works and study?

[Shawn0001]

Shawn0001. I just think it is wrong for same sex people to adopt children. I will respect your opinion, and hope you will respect mine.

Yes, I can respect your opinion. My only issue was how you presented your concerns, as if they are facts which they are not, they are just speculation.

Every concern you have is rooted in social stigma, that can change very quickly and I welcome that change.

[Shawn0001]

Can you understand how anyone or anything has any instinct? It is not something that is easily understood. And saying something happens in nature is not an understanding of how that happens, it is merely an observation that it does indeed happen in nature.

First, it seems that you are confused as to what maternal instict actually means, it is not the desire to procreate, it is the instict to nurture children, the bond between mother and child. Are you asking how gay men can have maternal instinct or how they can have the desire to procreate? I will answer the former.

The part of the brain associated with maternal instinct is the amygdala-centered network, this is the area associated with attention and strong emotions, in women this network naturally turns on during pregnancy or child birth. In parents with both mother and father present, the mother has an active amygdala-centered network but the father does not. However, in cases of single parent fathers a change is observed where the man’s amygdala-centered network switches on providing an increase in maternal instincts. In the same way a woman’s brain rewires during pregnancy, a man’s brain rewires through tending to the baby. Interestingly in homosexual male parents, both men usually have active amygdala-centered networks, meaning that there is no shortage of maternal instinct in male same sex parents. How this effects paternal instincts is another question.

Are you a professor on this? Maybe you can link me to your works and study?

Sorry, I'm no professor just interested, but here is a link:

http://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2014/05/parenting-rewires-male-brain

[NoshowJones]

Shawn0001. I just think it is wrong for same sex people to adopt children. I will respect your opinion, and hope you will respect mine.

Yes, I can respect your opinion. My only issue was how you presented your concerns, as if they are facts which they are not, they are just speculation.

Every concern you have is rooted in social stigma, that can change very quickly and I welcome that change.

It's nice to answer me with a decent post, maybe they are not facts, but there have been many posters on here who, just like me, have concerns about children being

adopted by same sex couples.

[Shawn0001]

Shawn0001. I just think it is wrong for same sex people to adopt children. I will respect your opinion, and hope you will respect mine.

Yes, I can respect your opinion. My only issue was how you presented your concerns, as if they are facts which they are not, they are just speculation.

Every concern you have is rooted in social stigma, that can change very quickly and I welcome that change.

It's nice to answer me with a decent post, maybe they are not facts, but there have been many posters on here who, just like me, have concerns about children being

adopted by same sex couples.

Me too, it concerns me greatly. but my only concern in the possible results of social stigmas and the only way to change that is to welcome it,

[CharlieH]

Post removed

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[manarak]

Shawn0001. I just think it is wrong for same sex people to adopt children. I will respect your opinion, and hope you will respect mine.

Yes, I can respect your opinion. My only issue was how you presented your concerns, as if they are facts which they are not, they are just speculation.

Every concern you have is rooted in social stigma, that can change very quickly and I welcome that change.

I actually share the concerns.

As far as I know, both side's beliefs are pure speculation, i.e. the side that believes "adopted children raised by gay/lesbian same sex couples turn out as normal as other children raised by heterosexual mixed sex parent couples", and the side that believes "adopted children raised by gay/lesbian same sex couples have more risks of developing differently than other children raised by heterosexual mixed sex parent couples".

Honestly, I don't know what to believe.

In those thoughts, I want to only consider what's best for the child - the couple's revendications for gay rights or whatever are in my opinion totally irrelevant compared to trying to ascertain what's best for the child.

Then, one also has to consider children that grow up in other "different" situations, such as orphans, single parent families, growing up with uncles or grandparents... do they develop differently?

If we accept the risk in these situations, is it rational to deny same sex couples?

Just some food for thought.

[evadgib]

What a bunch of nasty old homophobes there are in this forum. Perhaps the moderators should be removing the bigoted posts. But......

Actually it's the Hetrophobes, as explained in post 1777 of the 'Brigades' thread.

Edited June 26, 2015 by evadgib

[attrayant]

As far as I know, both side's beliefs are pure speculation

Then you haven't been paying attention.

Study Finds No Difference Between Children Raised By Same-Sex and Heterosexual Couples

Consensus is overwhelming in terms of there being no difference in children who are raised by same-sex or different- sex parents, University of Oregon sociology professor Ryan Light said on Tuesday.

I feel like I've stepped into a time machine and gone back to the 70s. Those of you who are waving your "think of the children!" flags should come up with some solid evidence of your claims. If you can't, then you're creating your own boogeyman and using that to justify your hatred and/or fears. The tremendous preponderance of the research I've been able to find shows that children are molested by heterosexuals at a disproportionately higher rate than by homosexuals. Here's a primer:

Members of disliked minority groups are often stereotyped as representing a danger to the majority's most vulnerable members. For example, Jews in the Middle Ages were accused of murdering Christian babies in ritual sacrifices. Black men in the United States were often lynched after being falsely accused of raping White women. n a similar fashion, gay people have often been portrayed as a threat to children. Back in 1977, when Anita Bryant campaigned successfully to repeal a Dade County (FL) ordinance prohibiting anti-gay discrimination, she named her organization "Save Our Children," and warned that "a particularly deviant-minded [gay] teacher could sexually molest children".

The cite offers a fairly thorough overview of the research and comes to this conclusion:

The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.

Edited June 26, 2015 by attrayant

[Jingthing]

What a bunch of nasty old homophobes there are in this forum. Perhaps the moderators should be removing the bigoted posts. But......

Actually it's the Hetrophobes, as explained in post 1777 of the 'Brigades' thread.

So are gay anti-straight bigots working overtime to deny basic civil rights to straight people? No? I didn't think so.

[Seastallion]

Asian roots were mentioned.

Well, the father isn't Asian and the lady who gave birth is not the mother.

So who is the biological mother? Why are "Asian" roots assumed?

If Asian roots, so what, it's not as if that is a problem.

Regardless of how this happened, THIS baby already exists and the lady who gave birth to her has no biological connection to this baby.

Does she really want this baby?

Is she really a good candidate to raise her?

If not, so she ends up in an orphanage in Thailand?

To the the "morality" police here ... that's better than a loving couple with a biological connection (one of them) raising her?

That doesn't wash.

To those who think this might be a financial shakedown ... well, I don't know, but that seems more logical than the gay panic excuse.

She's a beautiful child, and luk kreung......perhaps that is the birth-mother's angle. She wants a cute luk kreung who will one day make ads or be a tv star.

From the photo, it does seem as if the biological mother is Asian.

I thought that was a really lovely photo of the two dads and the 2 kids.

[Seastallion]

Why do straight couples want children?

If you think that is a stupid question, you'd be right.

Well, I think your question is stupid as well.

It's like you're so bigoted that you think gay people are a different SPECIES or something.

Of course not all gay people want children and not all straight people do either.

Oh dear have I touched a nerve, 5555. I am not bigoted, just wish to expand on my knowledge of human behaviour.

A man & a woman become partners/married/friends and decide to procreate. Normal in nature.

Same sex couple become partners/married/friends cannot procreate. Normal in nature.

Procreation is generally to carry on the family gene pool, which is perfectly natural, and many women have strong maternal instincts, even gay women. So a lesbian couple can realistically have one, or both parners with strong maternal instincts. I cannot understand how a male can have strong maternal instincts. Can you explain to me how this is possible, or are they only trophy children?

Can you understand how anyone or anything has any instinct? It is not something that is easily understood. And saying something happens in nature is not an understanding of how that happens, it is merely an observation that it does indeed happen in nature.

First, it seems that you are confused as to what maternal instict actually means, it is not the desire to procreate, it is the instict to nurture children, the bond between mother and child. Are you asking how gay men can have maternal instinct or how they can have the desire to procreate? I will answer the former.

The part of the brain associated with maternal instinct is the amygdala-centered network, this is the area associated with attention and strong emotions, in women this network naturally turns on during pregnancy or child birth. In parents with both mother and father present, the mother has an active amygdala-centered network but the father does not. However, in cases of single parent fathers a change is observed where the man’s amygdala-centered network switches on providing an increase in maternal instincts. In the same way a woman’s brain rewires during pregnancy, a man’s brain rewires through tending to the baby. Interestingly in homosexual male parents, both men usually have active amygdala-centered networks, meaning that there is no shortage of maternal instinct in male same sex parents. How this effects paternal instincts is another question.

That is fascinating, and until reading it I was very cautious about endorsing same sex couples raising children. I'm all for same-sex couples getting married, but I was concerned about parental roles wrt raising a child.

Your information goes a long way to giving me more confidence in supporting same-sex couples raising children.

I myself was a single dad of 2 children, for a total of 20 years. I guess my amygdalla grew!

As you say, though,, paternal matters may come into it...especially for lesbian couples. I think a child needs both a maternal and a paternal role model and mentor.

[cumgranosalum]

More unpopular research here on the topic; http://www.cbsnews.com/news/kids-of-gay-parents-fare-worse-study-finds-but-draws-fire-from-experts/

The problem is clearly that the LGBT lobby works hard to discredit any information that is counter to their viewpoint.

So - when presented with a well carried out study, or when discussing it, those with differing opinions get branded homophobic dinosaurs.

This is how liberals work in general - you have a different opinion - then you are racist, islamophobic, homophobic - take your pick.

Before rolling out the stereotypes, you might spend some time reading the reports properly and the content rather than just the media headlines. So, rather than resort to ad hominem attacks, why not criticise the actual subject matter of their criticism....my feeling is that you do not have the ability to do so.

Well - I did read the reports.

What particular points in there would you like to discuss?

Your post above is nothing but an attack on me and nothing to do with an attack on what I said.

To have an actual debate, it's best to discuss the points made, not throw about insults on the person making them.

Unsurprisingly, you don't seem to realise that you haven't made any points....most probably because you haven't read the reports......i don't mean your media summaries either!

Edited June 26, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[HenryB]

If God want any Couple to have baby one them should get pregnant. If one can not get pregnant that is God saying no babies.

He did say steal kill for one or buy one

[HenryB]

Don't change your view. It's happening and it's nothing at all new and there is no evidence of harm to the kids. Especially among LESBIANS who yes have it easier because they can birth the babies themselves.

Look, dudes, GLBT are indeed a minority group and some haters hate them. But that's no reason to deny GLBT people parental rights. By that logic, Jews who are also a small minority that many people hate shouldn't be allowed kids because they will be exposed to haters as they grow up. The problem is the HATERS. It is not the people who wish to be parents.

There is no perfect family or perfect parents. Each family is different in their own way. This is part of the fabric of diversity which is something that enlightened, civilized, non-bigoted people value.

Jews have the right have babies Just not the right to buy one. I think you know about the Civil War in America it was to end buying and selling people and yes babies.

I never knew it was fought so some great smart wonderful gays can buy babies Please read the 14 to 16 Amendment to the US Constitution nothing giving rights any Americans to buy babies. You even said yourself it is about money.

I could careless if they are Gay, Jewish, Muslim Members of the Church of England or Black this is just buying babies

I am wondering do you sell babies?

Edited June 26, 2015 by HenryB

[Franky Bear]

If God want any Couple to have baby one them should get pregnant. If one can not get pregnant that is God saying no babies.

He did say steal kill for one or buy one

God doesn't exist though. He's a figure in people head

[evadgib]

What a bunch of nasty old homophobes there are in this forum. Perhaps the moderators should be removing the bigoted posts. But......

Actually it's the Hetrophobes, as explained in post 1777 of the 'Brigades' thread.

So are gay anti-straight bigots working overtime to deny basic civil rights to straight people? No? I didn't think so.

My point being that anything other than complete compliance in threads of this nature generates a...

....from the very people claiming to be victims!

Edited June 26, 2015 by evadgib

[Jingthing]

Don't change your view. It's happening and it's nothing at all new and there is no evidence of harm to the kids. Especially among LESBIANS who yes have it easier because they can birth the babies themselves.

Look, dudes, GLBT are indeed a minority group and some haters hate them. But that's no reason to deny GLBT people parental rights. By that logic, Jews who are also a small minority that many people hate shouldn't be allowed kids because they will be exposed to haters as they grow up. The problem is the HATERS. It is not the people who wish to be parents.

There is no perfect family or perfect parents. Each family is different in their own way. This is part of the fabric of diversity which is something that enlightened, civilized, non-bigoted people value.

Jews have the right have babies Just not the right to buy one. I think you know about the Civil War in America it was to end buying and selling people and yes babies.

I never knew it was fought so some great smart wonderful gays can buy babies Please read the 14 to 16 Amendment to the US Constitution nothing giving rights any Americans to buy babies. You even said yourself it is about money.

I could careless if they are Gay, Jewish, Muslim Members of the Church of England or Black this is just buying babies

I am wondering do you sell babies?

Deflection. Some people here are OK with surrogacy but just don't accept equal access for gays. Separate issue for those against all surrogacy. That's not bigotry. Get it now?

[Nick167]

When will this idiots learn....never trust these thais to be your surrogates. Period. Thye will "thai" you eventually.

[Jingthing]

There are some reliable options in India but gays are also discriminated against there.

[joebrown]

"Release the homophobes!"

Yeah, I especially like the ones that read I have no problem with the gay lifestyle, but children...

Gay parents don't raise children to be gay, you dolts.

A little more baht to sweeten the deal should clear this up.

I'm 'straight' and until coming to LOS 10 years ago was homophobic. However, being in a more tolerant country than my homeland has taught me greater understanding of different lifestyles. I am pleased to say I now have gay friends. I've never asked them about their need for children or otherwise, but if I did I would ask them the question you have raised.

This question is - 'What exactly do gay parents raise their children to be?" IMHO most children look for role-models and try to follow the path set by their parents values, opinions and influences. I may be wrong but the parents' own lifestyle would most likely be the biggest influence on them.

I've no idea what expectations gay couples in general have for their children, but I'de hazard a quess it goes something like ' what ever makes them hapi' but you seem halfway bright if you cant work it out , go ask!!!

rijit

"but you seem halfway bright if you can't work it out, go ask"

Many thanks for your condescending assessment of my IQ.

"but I'de hazard a guess it goes something like"......so you don't actually know the answer then, do you? As I pointed out my gay friends don't have children, or didn't you read that? Do you have any gay friends with children? If so, I suggest you go ask them about this issue, and then perhaps you might enlighten me with your findings, which will be based on factual information rather than 'guesswork'!

Well. i take it back your not halfway bright at all, no where near it.

rijit

Once again a post of zero value to the thread! Please keep trying though because your attempts are amusing to say the least.