Bangkok’s Sex Shops, Street Bars Survive Graft Crackdown

[IMA_FARANG]

This article reads like it is something caused by foreigners and that all these activities were something illicit and somehow "dirty".

That just isn't true.

In fact as every Thai knows in a normal Thai community living area there are hundreds if not thousands of small businessmen and women running totally legitimate business service industries from there own homes but paying no taxes to the government.

From food sellers that sell food from their own kitchens, to hair dressers, to nurses who will give you "antibiotics" for your sniffles, barbers with one or two chairs that will give you the 75 Baht haircut special....you can find all these things in a Thai moo Ban living area.

If you have ever lived in such an area.....and many "Farangs" never have.... you probably don't realize the range of such services you can find in the Thai neighborhood all around you in such an area,

[Sviss Geez]

Survive graft crackdown? They aren't paying taxes? Them and every family owned small shop business in the country.

Are you a tax inspector, how do you know who is paying tax and who isn't? Are you aware that, as in most countries, there are certain levels of income here that attract no tax?

[lildragon]

Do people honestly expect Thailand to change overnight? At least more laws are enforced and more cases are brought against corrupt politicians / civil servants... if you don't feel the change, perhaps you are living in the sticks to see the change?

I live in Bangkok and have done for over 6 years now. While there was a few minor crackdowns places like sukhumvit are all business as usual. A few heads have rolled from the PTP side to be replaced by some one Junta friendly.

And to the poster saying this is ALL the Cops. While the cops more than play there part (a main role yes) do you think some of the higher ups in the very swollen army ranks don't have their fingers in some juicy illicit pies?

18 coups before this one changed nothing (well, the first one did) why do you morons think this one is any different? Your wives told you so right?

[movsrus]

Everything remains the same just different pigs feeding at the trough.

[HerbalEd]

Didn't I read somewhere that the "good general" was going to eliminate corruption?

There must be some way we can blame this on Thaksin.

Some of the ardent junta fan boys claim he has worked miracles in a year. To me everything is exactly the same, the noose gets tightened here and there only for things to go back to normal.

Things were like this under other juntas, I don't know why these fan boys just don't wise up to it.

They are "exactly the same"?? No. They may not be as much as you want ... and indeed there should be much more ... but to say there is zero positive change is to be blindly cynical, and disingenuous.

[heybruce]

Didn't I read somewhere that the "good general" was going to eliminate corruption?

There must be some way we can blame this on Thaksin.

Just out of curiosity: what did Thaksin do about it?

I don't know, but whatever the elected governments did or didn't do, it appears it worked better than the junta's efforts. As the article explains, people have been paying much more in bribes to stay in business since the "good general" seized power..

And it didn't occur to you that if illegal business is less profitable there is less incentive to engage in it?

So that's Prayuth's clever plan, reduce graft by letting the police, mafia and government officials increase their bribe demands and put everyone out of business. Brilliant!

This could lead to an unemployment problem, though.

[FangFerang]

Didn't I read somewhere that the "good general" was going to eliminate corruption?

There must be some way we can blame this on Thaksin.

Just out of curiosity: what did Thaksin do about it?

Thaksin did exactly what Prayuth is doing: Nothing.

[losworld]

Didn't I read somewhere that the "good general" was going to eliminate corruption?

There must be some way we can blame this on Thaksin.

There's so much corruption you will need generations weeding it out. It's in the mentality of many as a way to get ahead or simply as a means of doing business. Attitudes have to change.

[spidermike007]

Didn't I read somewhere that the "good general" was going to eliminate corruption?

There must be some way we can blame this on Thaksin.

Just out of curiosity: what did Thaksin do about it?

I don't know, but whatever the elected governments did or didn't do, it appears it worked better than the junta's efforts. As the article explains, people have been paying much more in bribes to stay in business since the "good general" seized power..

And it didn't occur to you that if illegal business is less profitable there is less incentive to engage in it?

So that's Prayuth's clever plan, reduce graft by letting the police, mafia and government officials increase their bribe demands and put everyone out of business. Brilliant!

This could lead to an unemployment problem, though.

By this point it is increasingly obvious he does not have a plan. He is winging it day by day. And being ineffective in the process.

[maureeses]

She said it has become more expensive since the army took over because the people she pays said they also have to pay more.

Very interesting.

I wonder if this is a result of new snouts in the trough, or the faltering economy.

My wife keeps referring to the PM as "mafia". I thought this was just some miss-applied slang; but maybe she is on to something.

I don't think he's mafia, but junta is needed. Also, a stupid person just can't go around calling another one stupid- whether the PM is stupid or not. It's wrong and just ironic for the stupid one to start the name calling.

[Deli]

What's new ?

[dageurreotype]

He should have been charged with crimes against humanity. Legalization and harm minimisation programs is the only way to curb the drug problem, not government sanctioned murder. Prohibition of alcohol in the USA in the 1920's and 30's was a resounding failure, crime and coruption became rampant and more people died from alcohol, just like with the war on drugs. When will people wake up!!

This page 2 re drug legalisation http://alcoholism.about.com/od/pot/a/bldea050426_3.htm

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/debate/myths/myths4.htm cites experience of countries worldwide and the results of legalising drugs.

Coincidentally, today's BP has an article re the current proposal to legislate casinos here, citing experiences of countries who have legislated and their deleterious affects on society and comparing it with Holland's failed drugs legislation, to wit, it merely encourages those who already do to do more of it and attracts newcomers, not to mention the increase in drug/gambling cartels and money laundering.

I'm not 'moralising', however this has been my personal experience of giving people enough rope to hang themselves. They invariably do. Especially here.

[dageurreotype]

And it didn't occur to you that if illegal business is less profitable there is less incentive to engage in it?

And it seemingly hasn't occurred to you that swinging one's arse around a pole is far less taxing and far more lucrative than actually doing a job of work and therefore worth the extra tea money?

[lildragon]

Didn't I read somewhere that the "good general" was going to eliminate corruption?

There must be some way we can blame this on Thaksin.

Some of the ardent junta fan boys claim he has worked miracles in a year. To me everything is exactly the same, the noose gets tightened here and there only for things to go back to normal.

Things were like this under other juntas, I don't know why these fan boys just don't wise up to it.

They are "exactly the same"?? No. They may not be as much as you want ... and indeed there should be much more ... but to say there is zero positive change is to be blindly cynical, and disingenuous.

I could give multiple examples but were Prayuth failed big time was on the issue of the Koh Tao murders. Every man and his dog knows that case is an absolute sham. He could of cracked a bunch of skulls, took out corrupt cops, officials, island mafia. Instead he towed the line because of all the connections involved (and they run quite high when you do some research).

Taxi mafias from the airport removed, now they are back. Street sellers moved, now they are back. So he has gone after a few token PTP cronies. Whoopy dee do! How about he reforms his own army? Loads of generals (way too many generals for one nations army) having riches beyond their salary. If he reformed that I would take him more seriously. But he won't, he's just a puppet the same as Yingluck was.

[Linzz]

Didn't I read somewhere that the "good general" was going to eliminate corruption?

There must be some way we can blame this on Thaksin.

Just out of curiosity: what did Thaksin do about it?

According to my Thai wife and many posters on here say,Thaksin had people killed who got in his way. How corrupt is that?

Edited July 2, 2015 by Linzz

[alocacoc]

Thanks. Now it's only a matter of time till bloomberg is banned in TH.

[ldiablo]

Here we have an article about Bangkok's sex shops and bars and for whatever reason it turns into as always a debate about Thakin. The man hasn't been in the country since 2006. Don't you think it's time to stop your trivial squabbling and talk about more important issues.

[Razzler1973]

I don't think you can compare food stalls and cocktail vans to some of the other dodgy activities

Without being stupid here but can't the government make all this official? Do proper inspections of the vans and carts, give out licences and make it all official?

[halloween]

I don't know, but whatever the elected governments did or didn't do, it appears it worked better than the junta's efforts. As the article explains, people have been paying much more in bribes to stay in business since the "good general" seized power..

And it didn't occur to you that if illegal business is less profitable there is less incentive to engage in it?

So that's Prayuth's clever plan, reduce graft by letting the police, mafia and government officials increase their bribe demands and put everyone out of business. Brilliant!

This could lead to an unemployment problem, though.

It's called the law of unintended effects. By reducing corruption opportunities elsewhere, the corrupt have been forced to seek higher payments to maintain their income, which makes illegal activities less attractive.

We could instead use the Thaksin model, and shoot anyone suspected of having an erection.

[halloween]

And it didn't occur to you that if illegal business is less profitable there is less incentive to engage in it?

And it seemingly hasn't occurred to you that swinging one's arse around a pole is far less taxing and far more lucrative than actually doing a job of work and therefore worth the extra tea money?

Oh I understand the attractions of prostitution. What makes you think it's the working girls paying bribes individually, rather than their employers?

[geriatrickid]

Do people honestly expect Thailand to change overnight? At least more laws are enforced and more cases are brought against corrupt politicians / civil servants... if you don't feel the change, perhaps you are living in the sticks to see the change?

What cases have been brought? All that we have seen is the ongoing vendetta against Yingluck. Can you name one politician from Phuket who is currently on trial for corruption? Who has been charged? Finding corrupt officials on Phuket is like finding a cheap hooker on Bangla. They are everywhere.

The only thing that has changed is that the cost of bribes have increased. You are delusional if you think there has been a change. How do you explain the fact that despite all the public announcements, not one person has been charged with land encroachment theft in Surat Thani or Phuket. NOT ONE!!! And that is the region where some of the worst and most obvious cases occurred. Do you get it? NOT ONE charge of corruption has been brought for the most visible cases. I am fed up with people like you so desperate to back a military that you invent "facts" to support your position. There is a local Phuket blog currently being harassed by the Thai navy. It has illustrated the corruption on a weekly basis. The Marine 5 Police chief and the military appointed governor continue to protect the taxi cartel and the jet ski thugs. Look at who the kingpins are. Look at the billions of baht of tax revenue diverted away from the people over the past decade and tell me again that this military regime has corruption on the run.

Oh yes the military did such a good job on corruption On Phuket that now 50% of the beach is RESERVED for the jet skis and para sail businesses. How many illegal taxis have been taken off the road? NOT ONE. How many drivers have been charged with failure to respect the fare rules? NOT ONE. How difficult would it be to enforce the most basic, the most simple of rules? Why is the bars are still open long past the closing hours?

Hello? Are you clueless or a liar or blind? The corruption is worse than ever. The only difference is that it is more hidden than before.

You don't like the PTP or Yingluck. Fine. I get it. However, don't come on here and try and pass off that corruption is being addresses when it is worse than before for the simple reason that there is no one speaking out. In case you forgot, the Democrats held the PTP to the fire on many isuses including the rice pledging and the Democrats were the ones that basically killed the rice program. There's now a new multi billion baht palm oil subsidy, but the public will never know the details because there is no democratically elected government, which includes an opposition, to review that subsidy. The military is on a buying spree and its big ticket item will be submarines. Without democracy there is no one to question the expenditures.

That's the integrity your military rule has brought. Good job.

[MobileContent]

Didn't I read somewhere that the "good general" was going to eliminate corruption?

There must be some way we can blame this on Thaksin.

Just out of curiosity: what did Thaksin do about it?

Thaksin former Interior Minister Purachai if I remember right, resigned because he want it to stop. Have not seen any of the Interior Ministers under Prayuth resign. Prayuth needs the police and has surely a deal with Lumpini and Thonglor.

[MobileContent]

Do people honestly expect Thailand to change overnight? At least more laws are enforced and more cases are brought against corrupt politicians / civil servants... if you don't feel the change, perhaps you are living in the sticks to see the change?

What cases have been brought? All that we have seen is the ongoing vendetta against Yingluck. Can you name one politician from Phuket who is currently on trial for corruption? Who has been charged? Finding corrupt officials on Phuket is like finding a cheap hooker on Bangla. They are everywhere.

The only thing that has changed is that the cost of bribes have increased. You are delusional if you think there has been a change. How do you explain the fact that despite all the public announcements, not one person has been charged with land encroachment theft in Surat Thani or Phuket. NOT ONE!!! And that is the region where some of the worst and most obvious cases occurred. Do you get it? NOT ONE charge of corruption has been brought for the most visible cases. I am fed up with people like you so desperate to back a military that you invent "facts" to support your position. There is a local Phuket blog currently being harassed by the Thai navy. It has illustrated the corruption on a weekly basis. The Marine 5 Police chief and the military appointed governor continue to protect the taxi cartel and the jet ski thugs. Look at who the kingpins are. Look at the billions of baht of tax revenue diverted away from the people over the past decade and tell me again that this military regime has corruption on the run.

Oh yes the military did such a good job on corruption On Phuket that now 50% of the beach is RESERVED for the jet skis and para sail businesses. How many illegal taxis have been taken off the road? NOT ONE. How many drivers have been charged with failure to respect the fare rules? NOT ONE. How difficult would it be to enforce the most basic, the most simple of rules? Why is the bars are still open long past the closing hours?

Hello? Are you clueless or a liar or blind? The corruption is worse than ever. The only difference is that it is more hidden than before.

You don't like the PTP or Yingluck. Fine. I get it. However, don't come on here and try and pass off that corruption is being addresses when it is worse than before for the simple reason that there is no one speaking out. In case you forgot, the Democrats held the PTP to the fire on many isuses including the rice pledging and the Democrats were the ones that basically killed the rice program. There's now a new multi billion baht palm oil subsidy, but the public will never know the details because there is no democratically elected government, which includes an opposition, to review that subsidy. The military is on a buying spree and its big ticket item will be submarines. Without democracy there is no one to question the expenditures.

That's the integrity your military rule has brought. Good job.

Well said and one that knows Thailand well. Their are just to many ass kissers here on TVF. Yingluck surely had her problems and so did Thaksin, Banharn, Chavalit and the other PM's. For every 1000 Baht you can take in Isaan for corruption you get 100,000 Baht in the South but Phuket, Krabi, Surat Thani is very well protected by both the guys in Bangkok and the South.

It is a cash cow that goes in billions of dollars a year. Just as an addition our company had to pay both the NAP (Chavalit) and Democrats (Suthep). NAP was 3 million but the price went up to 5 million after Suthep become the Communication Minister and inc charge of CAT. Of course the money was not paid cash to both of those parties but we have been asked to write some white papers for 3 and 5 million Baht as a study document (white paper) on the communication industry in Thailand in having CAT and TOT merge. Guess what? Those documents are still written on a yearly basis since 1988 but the Thai voters are fool and haven't figured it out. 5 million x 20 years is a 100 million Baht. One the end our company was swallowed by a corporation linked to the army and the shares were sold for 1 US$.

I got a good package deal out of it as well to shut my mouth of course.

Edited July 2, 2015 by MobileContent

[surangw]

if corruption ( the ingrained system) went away rapidly, nothing would get done, the police would leave their jobs in droves,. progress on infastructure would grind to a halt, and so on.

[aussiebrian]

He should have been charged with crimes against humanity. Legalization and harm minimisation programs is the only way to curb the drug problem, not government sanctioned murder. Prohibition of alcohol in the USA in the 1920's and 30's was a resounding failure, crime and coruption became rampant and more people died from alcohol, just like with the war on drugs. When will people wake up!!

This page 2 re drug legalisation http://alcoholism.about.com/od/pot/a/bldea050426_3.htm

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/debate/myths/myths4.htm cites experience of countries worldwide and the results of legalising drugs.

Coincidentally, today's BP has an article re the current proposal to legislate casinos here, citing experiences of countries who have legislated and their deleterious affects on society and comparing it with Holland's failed drugs legislation, to wit, it merely encourages those who already do to do more of it and attracts newcomers, not to mention the increase in drug/gambling cartels and money laundering.

I'm not 'moralising', however this has been my personal experience of giving people enough rope to hang themselves. They invariably do. Especially here.

You are moralising (comment on issues of right and wrong, typically with an unfounded air of superiority.

"the self-righteous moralizing of his aunt was ringing in his ears")

You are also not looking at this problem with an open mind, (choosing 2 links that must have been hard to find) with many more links disagreeing with your views.

The Netherlands for a start and even Portugal have not LEGALISED drugs but have decriminalised them. Your assumptions that they are failed is in contrary to the truth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands

(Summary)

The drug policy of the Netherlands officially has four major objectives:

1. To prevent recreational drug use and to treat and rehabilitate recreational drug users.
2. To reduce harm to users.
3. To diminish public nuisance by drug users (the disturbance of public order and safety in the neighborhood).
4. To combat the production and trafficking of recreational drugs.^[1]

While the legalization of cannabis remains controversial, the introduction of heroin-assisted treatment in 1998 has been lauded for considerably improving the health and social situation of opiate-dependent patients in the Netherlands.^[10]

Together with an approach that focusses on easily accessible health care, harm reduction and prevention, this causes the medical condition of the Dutch addicts to be less severe than that of many other countries.^[31]

^{https://news.vice.com/article/only-in-the-netherlands-do-addicts-complain-about-free-government-heroin}

All That's Left Is the Addiction Itself

The program can be hailed as a great success. Crime has plunged in neighborhoods where heroin use was endemic. Users have less trouble with the law, and their lives have stabilized and improved. They get a roof over their head, they receive welfare, and according to De Ridder, 80 percent of them have some sort of job.

The only problem they still have, of course, is their addiction.

Lahey said without the program, the “whole city would be full of junkies.”

“Now addicts can live more peacefully and start thinking about other things than just getting high. What remains after everything else has been taken care of, is their addiction,” he said. “If you get the dope for free, your only problem is that you’re addicted to the dope. It seems like a paradox, but it's true. All that's left when everything else is taken care of is the question: do I really want to keep on using this?”

http://www.amsterdam.info/drugs/

The Dutch see the use of drugs as a health matter, similar to the use of tobacco and alcohol, and in fact not very distant from problems of obesity, alcoholism and tobacco smoking. They also point to the fact that prohibition of alcohol in the US in the years 1919-1933 brought more negative effects of increased criminality, than the positive social changes and had to be withdrawn.

Portugal

http://mic.com/articles/110344/14-years-after-portugal-decriminalized-all-drugs-here-s-what-s-happening

In 2001, the Portuguese government did something that the United States would find entirely alien. After many years of waging a fierce war on drugs, it decided to flip its strategy entirely: It decriminalized them all.

If someone is found in the possession of less than a 10-day supply of anything from marijuana to heroin, he or she is sent to a three-person Commission for the Dissuasion of Drug Addiction, typically made up of a lawyer, a doctor and a social worker. The commission recommends treatment or a minor fine; otherwise, the person is sent off without any penalty. A vast majority of the time, there is no penalty.

Fourteen years after decriminalization, Portugal has not been run into the ground by a nation of drug addicts. In fact, by many measures, it's doing far better than it was before.

http://www.popsci.com/science-decriminalize-legalize-drugs-marijuana-weed

What happens if you decriminalize everything?

At the far end of natural experiments, Portugal has, for the last 12 years, decriminalized possession of not only marijuana, but every recreational drug. As a result, the country has drawn a spotlight of attention and research.

Interestingly, researchers and politicians both for and against general drug decriminalization have used Portugal as an example. The disagreements arise in part because different people looked at different numbers, such as lifetime drug use, which went up, or problematic drug use, which went down. Alex Stevens, a criminal justice researcher at the University of Kent in the U.K. who has studied Portugal extensively and supports the country's policy, thinks that the most important numbers show improvement. Lifetime drug use could include many people who tried a drug, but didn't develop a harmful habit, he says.

In-depth reporting by the Boston Globe and at the New Yorker agreed with this sentiment, concluding that--after drug reform--Portugal's drug use situation mostly got better. Confounding more clarity, however, was a comprehensive program for treating addicts that started at the same time, so it's difficult to isolate the effects of decriminalization versus treatment.

I could go on and on without looking too far. I have seen the drug problem getting much worse in Australia since I was young, and around the world, with more and more dangerous drugs being made. Do a few searches, you will not find many sites and studies that say it was a failure. You can always find something negative if you do a lot of looking, but any scientific studies do not agree with your moralising.

Also if it was to be done properly, all drugs should be decriminalised and then legalised, Drugs should be a health issue, not a legal problem.

I do not want your children or my child to use drugs, but with the current laws, that is a lot more likely. People need to be responsible for their own actions.

I do not condone drug use, and in a more human society, the current insanity would not be allowed to continue. In the future, people will look back at the war on drugs as draconian and a huge failure, resulting in the opposite effect of what it's aim is supposed to be.

It is best not to use any drugs, including tobacco and alcohol. But this is the real world I am living in, not like yours.

While I am writing this there is a program on Australia Plus about how overused and abuse of prescription drugs is the biggest drug problem.

What do you want? More of the same failed war on Drugs, murder, corruption, deaths or a change that reduces harm for the users and society. I know what I want.

Edited July 2, 2015 by aussiebrian

[jadee]

One difference now compared with a decade ago is the open selling of sex toys outside Nana and that area. I don't remember seeing that when I first visited Thailand in 2005, or maybe it was better hidden. Sex DVDs are still openly sold although I don't know how they survive now anyone can simply download what they want from a torrent site. That's one oddity I have noticed; some websites have been blocked such as the British newspaper The Daily Mail, while sites you'd think should be blocked such as The Pirate Bay are apparently fine.

[heybruce]

I don't know, but whatever the elected governments did or didn't do, it appears it worked better than the junta's efforts. As the article explains, people have been paying much more in bribes to stay in business since the "good general" seized power..

And it didn't occur to you that if illegal business is less profitable there is less incentive to engage in it?

So that's Prayuth's clever plan, reduce graft by letting the police, mafia and government officials increase their bribe demands and put everyone out of business. Brilliant!

This could lead to an unemployment problem, though.

It's called the law of unintended effects. By reducing corruption opportunities elsewhere, the corrupt have been forced to seek higher payments to maintain their income, which makes illegal activities less attractive.

We could instead use the Thaksin model, and shoot anyone suspected of having an erection.

Is that it? Okay...., um, where have corruption opportunities been reduced?

Also, why do the outlaws selling noodles, fruits, and cheesy souvenirs on the sidewalks have to take the brunt of the crackdown?

I could once again explain that eliminating corruption requires transparency in government finances and operations, including the police and military, and routine financial disclosures by government people, including the police and military, but that always goes unanswered. It seems people prefer to extoll the virtues of the "hang-em high" approach to fighting corruption. Thinking about meaningful changes in government operations that have worked in other countries is not as much fun. Also, I don't think the junta is a fan of transparency, and many people assume the junta can do no wrong.

[lildragon]

Do people honestly expect Thailand to change overnight? At least more laws are enforced and more cases are brought against corrupt politicians / civil servants... if you don't feel the change, perhaps you are living in the sticks to see the change?

What cases have been brought? All that we have seen is the ongoing vendetta against Yingluck. Can you name one politician from Phuket who is currently on trial for corruption? Who has been charged? Finding corrupt officials on Phuket is like finding a cheap hooker on Bangla. They are everywhere.

The only thing that has changed is that the cost of bribes have increased. You are delusional if you think there has been a change. How do you explain the fact that despite all the public announcements, not one person has been charged with land encroachment theft in Surat Thani or Phuket. NOT ONE!!! And that is the region where some of the worst and most obvious cases occurred. Do you get it? NOT ONE charge of corruption has been brought for the most visible cases. I am fed up with people like you so desperate to back a military that you invent "facts" to support your position. There is a local Phuket blog currently being harassed by the Thai navy. It has illustrated the corruption on a weekly basis. The Marine 5 Police chief and the military appointed governor continue to protect the taxi cartel and the jet ski thugs. Look at who the kingpins are. Look at the billions of baht of tax revenue diverted away from the people over the past decade and tell me again that this military regime has corruption on the run.

Oh yes the military did such a good job on corruption On Phuket that now 50% of the beach is RESERVED for the jet skis and para sail businesses. How many illegal taxis have been taken off the road? NOT ONE. How many drivers have been charged with failure to respect the fare rules? NOT ONE. How difficult would it be to enforce the most basic, the most simple of rules? Why is the bars are still open long past the closing hours?

Hello? Are you clueless or a liar or blind? The corruption is worse than ever. The only difference is that it is more hidden than before.

You don't like the PTP or Yingluck. Fine. I get it. However, don't come on here and try and pass off that corruption is being addresses when it is worse than before for the simple reason that there is no one speaking out. In case you forgot, the Democrats held the PTP to the fire on many isuses including the rice pledging and the Democrats were the ones that basically killed the rice program. There's now a new multi billion baht palm oil subsidy, but the public will never know the details because there is no democratically elected government, which includes an opposition, to review that subsidy. The military is on a buying spree and its big ticket item will be submarines. Without democracy there is no one to question the expenditures.

That's the integrity your military rule has brought. Good job.

Yeah yeah,,,but....Thaksin....

kidding awesome post. As I said earlier, suits have been replaced by uniforms and prices adjusted accordingly. Some are just too blind to see it.

[jayboy]

Didn't I read somewhere that the "good general" was going to eliminate corruption?

There must be some way we can blame this on Thaksin.

Just out of curiosity: what did Thaksin do about it?

Drug War. Probably one of the most important and effective anti corruption actions taken in Thailand. At the time several provinces and large parts of the border region had all but been taken over by the drug cartel(s), The cartel's influence reached into the police, the judiciary, political leaders, and the military. The influx of cheap drugs was ripping the social fabric of Thailand apart and every month,thousands were becoming addicted. This cleanup has been much discussed in TVF and Thaksin blamed for many of the drug cartel and police related deaths.

Corrupt officials were removed and human trafficking stopped during the cleanup.. The Thaksin initiated war on corruption was a civil government initiated operation undertaken by the military and the police working together.

So your saying the Thaksin initiated and led mass murder campaign disguised as a anti drug campaign was a stunning success and a credit to this madman?

All it achieved was the deaths of 2500 or more people, most not involved in the drug trade and increasing the price of drugs...

"The exact numbers of dead have sometimes been debated, with international organizations, like Amnesty International, estimating as high as 2800, while the Royal Thai Police only admit 72 killings. Subsequent governments actually talked up the numbers of dead and promised future death tolls of 3000-4000."

"Thaksin began a new round in his campaign against drugs in February and ordered police “to produce results at any cost.” The goal was to “eradicate all drugs in Thailand.” This three-month campaign resulted in 2,275 deaths."

"According to the Narcotics Control Board, the policy was effective in reducing drug consumption, especially in schools, by increasing the market price......The war on drugs was widely criticized by the international community. Thaksin requested that the UN Commission on Human Rights send a special envoy to evaluate the situation, but said in an interview, "The United Nations is not my father. I am not worried about any UN visit to Thailand on this issue."

"I still consider the human rights abuses carried out during the War on Drugs to be the worst committed during the tenure of an elected government since Thailand liberalised in the 1980s"

Only a very sick individual would consider this one of the most important and effective anti corruption actions taken in Thailand

I don't think he was arguing there was any credit to Thaksin for this deplorable exercise.He was simply pointing out the drugs war had very strong backing from the military and the police, and for that matter most Thais of all backgrounds including many at the highest level.It is futile to pretend this was not the case, and it reflects the appalling damage and pain that the drugs trade causes.

The trouble is that these factors tend to be ignored by Thaksin haters who only have one objective in mind, namely to attribute all Thailand's ills to one man.

The response to my points is usually to suggest that the immorality of the drugs war is the issue, not whether it was popular or not.I entirely agree.It was a grave stain on the record of those who participated in or connived at it.The fact however that Thaksin has never been charged has a significance which only the most unsophisticated could fail to understand.

But the reality is that many of those who pontificate endlessly about Thaksin and the drugs war are not the slightest bit interested in morality or human rights.It is just part of general hysteria about Thaksin.

[waza]

Just out of curiosity: what did Thaksin do about it?

Drug War. Probably one of the most important and effective anti corruption actions taken in Thailand. At the time several provinces and large parts of the border region had all but been taken over by the drug cartel(s), The cartel's influence reached into the police, the judiciary, political leaders, and the military. The influx of cheap drugs was ripping the social fabric of Thailand apart and every month,thousands were becoming addicted. This cleanup has been much discussed in TVF and Thaksin blamed for many of the drug cartel and police related deaths.

Corrupt officials were removed and human trafficking stopped during the cleanup.. The Thaksin initiated war on corruption was a civil government initiated operation undertaken by the military and the police working together.

So your saying the Thaksin initiated and led mass murder campaign disguised as a anti drug campaign was a stunning success and a credit to this madman?

All it achieved was the deaths of 2500 or more people, most not involved in the drug trade and increasing the price of drugs...

"The exact numbers of dead have sometimes been debated, with international organizations, like Amnesty International, estimating as high as 2800, while the Royal Thai Police only admit 72 killings. Subsequent governments actually talked up the numbers of dead and promised future death tolls of 3000-4000."

"Thaksin began a new round in his campaign against drugs in February and ordered police “to produce results at any cost.” The goal was to “eradicate all drugs in Thailand.” This three-month campaign resulted in 2,275 deaths."

"According to the Narcotics Control Board, the policy was effective in reducing drug consumption, especially in schools, by increasing the market price......The war on drugs was widely criticized by the international community. Thaksin requested that the UN Commission on Human Rights send a special envoy to evaluate the situation, but said in an interview, "The United Nations is not my father. I am not worried about any UN visit to Thailand on this issue."

"I still consider the human rights abuses carried out during the War on Drugs to be the worst committed during the tenure of an elected government since Thailand liberalised in the 1980s"

Only a very sick individual would consider this one of the most important and effective anti corruption actions taken in Thailand

I don't think he was arguing there was any credit to Thaksin for this deplorable exercise.He was simply pointing out the drugs war had very strong backing from the military and the police, and for that matter most Thais of all backgrounds including many at the highest level.It is futile to pretend this was not the case, and it reflects the appalling damage and pain that the drugs trade causes.

The trouble is that these factors tend to be ignored by Thaksin haters who only have one objective in mind, namely to attribute all Thailand's ills to one man.

The response to my points is usually to suggest that the immorality of the drugs war is the issue, not whether it was popular or not.I entirely agree.It was a grave stain on the record of those who participated in or connived at it.The fact however that Thaksin has never been charged has a significance which only the most unsophisticated could fail to understand.

But the reality is that many of those who pontificate endlessly about Thaksin and the drugs war are not the slightest bit interested in morality or human rights.It is just part of general hysteria about Thaksin.

What the??? You dont think he was arguing there was any credit to Thaksin for this deplorable exercise.!!!! The man stated, "Drug War. Probably one of the most important and effective anti corruption actions taken in Thailand." I concede that it had the support of some very senior Thais, but so did the coup and the present military government and that doesn't make it moral. Drugs didn't kill these 2800 people, Thaksin's policy did. This plus many other crimes against humanity, many corrupt scams that raped the Thai treasury are ample reasons to dislike Thaksin.

​The fact he hasn't been charged as yet is just an indication of how immoral Thai politics can be and the constant attempts by TVF members to justify , dismiss or honour Thaksin for his action is a reflection of their lack of humanity

Edited July 2, 2015 by waza