Dentistry in Thailand - A salutary waring from Australia

[cumgranosalum]

Here is a recent article form ABC

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-02/dental-health-hiv-hepatitis-scare-sydney-may-affect-thousands/6588534

thousands of dental patients have been advised to have blood tests......

This is unlikely ever to happen in Thailand - WHY?

When people recommend dentists in Thailand they do so without any real medical expertise.

the recommendations are usually based firstly on cost and then the lack of pain.

This event in Australia however should serve as a warning to thoe who blithely walk into any dentist in Thailand recommended by a an unqualified source.

there NO SYSTEM to adequately check out this sort of problem in Thailand..... so even if you are "satisfied" with your treatment you have no way of knowing how good or appropriate it really was......so think before you make a decision based on cost or your "mates'" assessment.

[NickJ]

I would also be concerned with tattoos in Thailand. There again a person could seek an artist because he does good work. Yet the shops often dont have an autoclave, a machine that steam santizes medical equipment. Some do, most dont.

Thinking its enough that new needles are being used. Its not. The artist could have a dirt gun.

Also, Ink or rather high quality ink is expensive in Thailand I dont know if I would trust just anyone not to pour the ink back into the bottle.

And.....microwaves are not autoclaves....

[CaptHaddock]

The conclusions the OP draws merit examination. The reported problem occurred in Australia, not Thailand. I certainly don't think Thailand is free from the problem of inadequate safety procedures in dental clinics, but there is no actual evidence of that either in the OP's post or in the article. OP implies that there is a an inspection procedure for dental clinics in Oz, but, there is no suggestion of such a system in the article. It was not an inspection that detected the problem, but the complaint of a customer.

As for the recommendations of dental patients or of medical patients in general, they are all worthless because the public is unable to evaluate the quality of the medical care they receive. A large-scale study in the US some years ago showed that 60% of treatments were substandard. In the US hospitals are the best place to contract MRSA largely because doctors refuse to wash their hands as often as they should since it would cost them lost fee income to do so. This is not to suggest that all is necessarily well in the Thai healthcare industry, but that first world care is not all that people think it is.

[cumgranosalum]

I would also be concerned with tattoos in Thailand. There again a person could seek an artist because he does good work. Yet the shops often dont have an autoclave, a machine that steam santizes medical equipment. Some do, most dont.

Thinking its enough that new needles are being used. Its not. The artist could have a dirt gun.

Also, Ink or rather high quality ink is expensive in Thailand I dont know if I would trust just anyone not to pour the ink back into the bottle.

And.....microwaves are not autoclaves....

I think this problem is pretty ell established, but people fail to realise that in regards to healthcare in Thailand there is very little - if any - monitoring by independent bodies and comeback is virtually unheard of.... given the endemic nature of graft and corruption in Thiland, even if it was "discovered" it would be very unikey to get the "oxygen of publicity"

[cumgranosalum]

The conclusions the OP draws merit examination. The reported problem occurred in Australia, not Thailand. I certainly don't think Thailand is free from the problem of inadequate safety procedures in dental clinics, but there is no actual evidence of that either in the OP's post or in the article. OP implies that there is a an inspection procedure for dental clinics in Oz, but, there is no suggestion of such a system in the article. It was not an inspection that detected the problem, but the complaint of a customer.

As for the recommendations of dental patients or of medical patients in general, they are all worthless because the public is unable to evaluate the quality of the medical care they receive. A large-scale study in the US some years ago showed that 60% of treatments were substandard. In the US hospitals are the best place to contract MRSA largely because doctors refuse to wash their hands as often as they should since it would cost them lost fee income to do so. This is not to suggest that all is necessarily well in the Thai healthcare industry, but that first world care is not all that people think it is.

I'm drawing attention to this event, not because it was in Australia, but because it illustrates firstly that there are systems (in this case, the NSW health Authority) in place there whereby whether through customer complaint or inspection these matters will come to light, whereas in Thailand given the endemic nature of graft and corruption, and absence of such systems, there is little or no chance of this either being detected or coming to light.

This problem i would venture to say also is by no means restricted to the dental arm of Thai healthcare.

Edited July 5, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[CaptHaddock]

The conclusions the OP draws merit examination. The reported problem occurred in Australia, not Thailand. I certainly don't think Thailand is free from the problem of inadequate safety procedures in dental clinics, but there is no actual evidence of that either in the OP's post or in the article. OP implies that there is a an inspection procedure for dental clinics in Oz, but, there is no suggestion of such a system in the article. It was not an inspection that detected the problem, but the complaint of a customer.

As for the recommendations of dental patients or of medical patients in general, they are all worthless because the public is unable to evaluate the quality of the medical care they receive. A large-scale study in the US some years ago showed that 60% of treatments were substandard. In the US hospitals are the best place to contract MRSA largely because doctors refuse to wash their hands as often as they should since it would cost them lost fee income to do so. This is not to suggest that all is necessarily well in the Thai healthcare industry, but that first world care is not all that people think it is.

I'm drawing attention to this event, not because it was in Australia, but because it illustrates firstly that there are systems (in this case, the NSW health Authority) in place there whereby whether through customer complaint or inspection these matters will come to light, whereas in Thailand given the endemic nature of graft and corruption, and absence of such systems, there is little or no chance of this either being detected or coming to light.

This problem i would venture to say also is by no means restricted to the dental arm of Thai healthcare, unless you think that somehow evidence of a problem in Australia is evidence of a problem in Thailand.

What you allege about the Thai healthcare system may be true, but you provide no evidence of any kind. You allege endemic graft and corruption in the Thai healthcare system, but you provide no substantiation of any kind. In the absence of evidence, your view amounts to nothing more than a prejudice. You have not identified any actual problem in Thai healthcare, whether of the dental variety or any other.

Edited July 5, 2015 by CaptHaddock

[h90]

I would also be concerned with tattoos in Thailand. There again a person could seek an artist because he does good work. Yet the shops often dont have an autoclave, a machine that steam santizes medical equipment. Some do, most dont.

Thinking its enough that new needles are being used. Its not. The artist could have a dirt gun.

Also, Ink or rather high quality ink is expensive in Thailand I dont know if I would trust just anyone not to pour the ink back into the bottle.

And.....microwaves are not autoclaves....

I think this problem is pretty ell established, but people fail to realise that in regards to healthcare in Thailand there is very little - if any - monitoring by independent bodies and comeback is virtually unheard of.... given the endemic nature of graft and corruption in Thiland, even if it was "discovered" it would be very unikey to get the "oxygen of publicity"

If you go to the cheapest dentist in Thailand you may get some cheap service. If you go to an expensive one, you get the same service as at an expensive one in Farangistan. Just expensive in Thailand is 1/3 the money than expensive in Farangland.

[spidermike007]

Graft is probably not the issue with regard to health standards and public safety in thailand. It is more an issue of incompetency. Officials here are rarely appointed based on merit. It is usually based on cronyism. So, when a guy who founded a chain of shoe stores is heading the health department, for example, he just might be in over his head. And who suffers? The public. Make sure you know your clinic uses good safety procedures. The state does not look after you here, on ANY level.

[cumgranosalum]

Graft is probably not the issue with regard to health standards and public safety in thailand. It is more an issue of incompetency. Officials here are rarely appointed based on merit. It is usually based on cronyism. So, when a guy who founded a chain of shoe stores is heading the health department, for example, he just might be in over his head. And who suffers? The public. Make sure you know your clinic uses good safety procedures. The state does not look after you here, on ANY level.

First you contradict me then go on to support the point I was making.

Because of graft and corruption (to make it clearer, I will add that this includes nepotism/cronyism) is a serious problem in Thailand that many people who hold quite high professional positions are in fact incapable of carrying out the job they have been appointed to.

On top of this when confronted with a "problem" they are much more likely to take the "Kreng Jai" route or even accept payment or favours rather thean let the problem run through the proper course - if that course is even outlined in Thailand.

as for maing sure about your clinic or hospital..........well as a layperson, that is a pie-in-the-sky objective.

to quote Capt. Haddock from above........

"the public is unable to evaluate the quality of the medical care they receive"

Edited July 5, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[gamini]

Thousands of people from all over the world come to Thailand for dental treatment because of its excellence and value for money. Many of them are Australians. They go to well-known dentists at large clinics and hospitals where many of the dentists have been trained overseas, so the article is a lot of nonsense. It probably originated from some discontented Australian dentists. who were losing out business to Thailand
When I was living in Australia I travelled to Thailand for dental treatment because of the ridiculously high cost in Australia. I needed a new denture. The one I had made in Australia only lasted three years and the one I had made in Thailand not only cost quarter of the price but it has lasted me already 8 years.

[Suradit69]

The conclusions the OP draws merit examination. The reported problem occurred in Australia, not Thailand. I certainly don't think Thailand is free from the problem of inadequate safety procedures in dental clinics, but there is no actual evidence of that either in the OP's post or in the article. OP implies that there is a an inspection procedure for dental clinics in Oz, but, there is no suggestion of such a system in the article. It was not an inspection that detected the problem, but the complaint of a customer.

As for the recommendations of dental patients or of medical patients in general, they are all worthless because the public is unable to evaluate the quality of the medical care they receive. A large-scale study in the US some years ago showed that 60% of treatments were substandard. In the US hospitals are the best place to contract MRSA largely because doctors refuse to wash their hands as often as they should since it would cost them lost fee income to do so. This is not to suggest that all is necessarily well in the Thai healthcare industry, but that first world care is not all that people think it is.

I'm drawing attention to this event, not because it was in Australia, but because it illustrates firstly that there are systems (in this case, the NSW health Authority) in place there whereby whether through customer complaint or inspection these matters will come to light, whereas in Thailand given the endemic nature of graft and corruption, and absence of such systems, there is little or no chance of this either being detected or coming to light.

This problem i would venture to say also is by no means restricted to the dental arm of Thai healthcare, unless you think that somehow evidence of a problem in Australia is evidence of a problem in Thailand.

What you allege about the Thai healthcare system may be true, but you provide no evidence of any kind. You allege endemic graft and corruption in the Thai healthcare system, but you provide no substantiation of any kind. In the absence of evidence, your view amounts to nothing more than a prejudice. You have not identified any actual problem in Thai healthcare, whether of the dental variety or any other.

Agree. It's just speculative assumptions. I've been "blithely" using medical and dental services in Thailand for at least 15 years without any problem, during which time malpractice suits have proliferated in the west, pharmaceutical companies in the west have used corruption and graft to fast track treatments that are later found to have caused more damage than help for those who blithely assumed them to be safe and efficacious and prices for medical services have become obscene (or in those countries offering free treatment, services have deteriorated).

Of course you need to exercise some caution wherever in the world you seek treatment and you should always expect to be informed and in control of the decision process when you see a doctor or dentist, but the implication that these problems are somehow worse in Thailand than anywhere else is unsubstantiated prejudice.

[cumgranosalum]

There is a tendency on TV for those who haven’t fully understood or don’t actually have an argument of there own to ask for “evidence” as if they think this is some kind of argumental placebo.

The case is this - I have put forward the proposal that people are way to “trusting” with Thai healthcare.

As an example I’ve shown how failings in healthcare in some other countries can be reported detected and dealt with because those countries have functioning systems in place. Evidence? Well I used Australia as an example and submit that the existence in Oz and many other countries of these appropriate bodies is also evidence. I think if you don’t believe those bodies exist then rather than waste my time listing them, I’d suggest you do the leg-work and check it out (i have cited the NSW health authority.) You'll find they do exist.

I then suggest that Thailand does not have these systems in place. If you think they have, why not suggest what/where they are.......I’m saying they don’t exist or have no teeth. Evidence of none existence is a bit too existential for this topic, don't you think?

As for corruption. If you doubt the extent of nepotism, graft and corruption in Thailand then all I can say it is a shortfall in your understanding of the country. I am taking that more-or-less as given.

If you want to dispute corruption in Thailand I’d suggest that is a topic for a different thread.

Then some posters seem to think by extolling the perceived virtues of the Thai healthcare system and the number of foreigners who come here to make use of it is somehow a counter-argument to my initial proposal. - This is of course utter nonsense - it doesn’t matter how “good” as a lay person you may think it is or how many people use it, it is totally unconnected to my OP. - in fact the more complacent and the bigger the numbers the greater the potential for damage.

So the only REAL argument against my post would be to show firstly that the Thai system is BETTER run than the Australian system, the monitoring is more effective and that an incident similar to the one in Oz can’t happen in Thailand. I think you’ll have a hard time finding “evidence’ for that.

Edited July 6, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[CaptHaddock]

Once again, Mr. Grain of Salt, the amount of actual information about the Thai healthcare system in your post is exactly zero. You don't seem to grasp the difference between having an opinion and having something to say.

Edited July 6, 2015 by CaptHaddock

[cumgranosalum]

Once again, Mr. Grain of Salt, the amount of actual information about the Thai healthcare system in your post is exactly zero. You don't seem to grasp the difference between having an opinion and having something to say.

..so what?..are you suggesting what I say is incorrect? If so why?

Edited July 6, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[SOTIRIOS]

...cutting costs of disposing of suction attachments.....

[mikebell]

A new clinic opened in Bang Saray. I decided to give it a whirl. The sign said 'Open from 10am.' My wife & I got there on the dot. Two receptionists confirmed they were open but the dentist did not come in till 11am!

Came back one hour later to find the dentist arriving and a patient waiting. She was seen first and received 90 minutes treatment! I sat browsing Thai magazines. Eventually I was seen. I had to have an X-ray. Then one filling. Cost 1000 baht. I cannot bite down on the new filling it sits too proud and causes me pain. The dentist told me I needed 3 more. I will get them done soon - elsewhere.

[h90]

A new clinic opened in Bang Saray. I decided to give it a whirl. The sign said 'Open from 10am.' My wife & I got there on the dot. Two receptionists confirmed they were open but the dentist did not come in till 11am!

Came back one hour later to find the dentist arriving and a patient waiting. She was seen first and received 90 minutes treatment! I sat browsing Thai magazines. Eventually I was seen. I had to have an X-ray. Then one filling. Cost 1000 baht. I cannot bite down on the new filling it sits too proud and causes me pain. The dentist told me I needed 3 more. I will get them done soon - elsewhere.

There is something called appointment.....I never got the idea to just drop in at the dentist...Even with pain you call first

[pkspeaker]

The dental and medical care i have received in thailand has always been excellent, i have never relied on any watchdog or government bureu to tell me that this hospital is ok and this one is shoddy.. Place like bangkok-pataya and bumangrad are just good and i dont worry as their reputation is good, my wife uses the government provided system and although she has to wait forever~ the treatment is good. If they have these govt watchdogs in america-it doesn't work and all the doctors just rely on medical malpractice insurance..as weather they are good or bad, they're going to get hit with frivolous lawsuits anyways-which drives costs up for everyone else and this IS the corruption in the american medical care. It makes medical care expensive, of poorer quality, and then you can still get screwed by a bad doctor-what difference does it make to him he's got the insurance and even sthe good doctors face frivilous lawsuits so how do you tell the difference?

[SiSePuede419]

My dentist in Thailand refused to take x-ray. Said it was an safety hazard.

Then he said I didn't need a cleaning. My teeth were clean.

I use an ultrasound toothbrush and had a dentist in America remark how little plaque my teeth had.

Damn fine service in Thailand (at a public hospital).

Ozzie's been outback too long, 555

[melovethai]

Why on the subject of dental care in Thailand. Can anyone recommend a dentist in Nakhon Ratchasima. Cheers

[3mike26]

Thanks for the warning about 3rd world conditions.

Australians are so fortunate to have big-agriculture, big-food, big-pharma, big-chemical, big-medicine, big-media, . etc. looking after their health interests. And yes, dentistry is complicit in this.

Btw in the US alone there estimated over 225,000 deaths per year from iatrogenesis (caused by the clinic/hospital)! The third largest cause of death.

[Baerboxer]

A new clinic opened in Bang Saray. I decided to give it a whirl. The sign said 'Open from 10am.' My wife & I got there on the dot. Two receptionists confirmed they were open but the dentist did not come in till 11am!

Came back one hour later to find the dentist arriving and a patient waiting. She was seen first and received 90 minutes treatment! I sat browsing Thai magazines. Eventually I was seen. I had to have an X-ray. Then one filling. Cost 1000 baht. I cannot bite down on the new filling it sits too proud and causes me pain. The dentist told me I needed 3 more. I will get them done soon - elsewhere.

I went to a dentist in Sai Mai for a complicated extraction of an impacted tooth. The local hospital dentist recommended 3 others as it was beyond his skill level. He gave me the x-rays he took.

My dentist in the UK had out off doing this for years, saying wait till it's necessary. I chose the one I liked the best of the 3 and had the extraction, which involved cutting the gum and load of stitches, then when healed sufficiently, the implant. No problems at all.

As with all, you need to find the ones that suit you.

[1FinickyOne]

The basic consumer guide to dentistry is that if it doesn't hurt, you don't have a problem…

I love my dentist in CM - he has not performed any unnecessary work - he works competently… in several years of using him, only once did we ever go beyond a cleaning and that was when a filling fell out, which I knew as it was obvious.

However, I had a few dentists in USA who did recommend unnecessary work. I was told informally by a dentist friend that w/o unnecessary work, most dentists can not survive.

[bazza40]

You get what you pay for. A lot of Thai dental practices have equipment more than 30 years old. Some have equipment which is as cutting-edge as anything in Western countries.

I've had a lot of work on my teeth done in Thailand - crowns, caps, partial denture and implants. Perhaps I've been lucky; however, my dentist in Australia says the work is as good as anything he could do. And about one third the cost.

Possibly the bad experiences come for those who want fast dentistry. When I had my implants done - three months healing time after extraction, 3 months for bone graft and screws, another checkup after final crowns - I questioned the dentist about the dental practices advertising same day implants. He just smiled and said " My failure rate on implants is about 5%. The failure rate on same day implants is 40 - 50%".

While there may be corruption in obtaining qualifications in the medical field, I suggest it's a lot harder to fake dental skills - dentists are at the coal face, so to speak.

[CaptHaddock]

Thanks for the warning about 3rd world conditions. Australians are so fortunate to have big-agriculture, big-food, big-pharma, big-chemical, big-medicine, big-media, . etc. looking after their health interests. And yes, dentistry is complicit in this. Btw in the US alone there estimated over 225,000 deaths per year from iatrogenesis (caused by the clinic/hospital)! The third largest cause of death.

US excess hospital deaths are at least that many and may be as much as 400,000 per year which would approach the number of tobacco-related deaths, previously thought to be the largest number of preventable deaths.

http://www.fiercehealthcare.com/story/hospital-medical-errors-third-leading-cause-death-dispute-to-err-is-human-report/2013-09-20

[Kerryd]

Meh - plenty of people in North America contracted Hep C and HIV from dentists years ago. Clinics there weren't as well regulated (or inspected) as they are now.

I've gone to a couple different clinics in Pattaya. One was on Pattaya Tai near Tuk Com (before it became Tuk Com) and another out on Soi Khao Noi. Both did excellent work (based on my years and years of experience sitting in dentist chairs in Canada and in the military). If the clinics (or their staff) had of looked shabby or "iffy" in any way I would have gone elsewhere, however they were clean, neat, efficient and caring. I am (normally) not a good patient (I hate going to the dentist with a passion - they used to prescribe Valium to me prior to any dental appointment. It was that or put me under completely.)

However the dentists at both clinics here were great. Initially I was my usual apprehensive (unmedicated) self, expecting medieval tools of dentistry to be wielded by crazed lunatics that couldn't tell the difference between a mole and a molar ! Needless to say I was pleasantly surprised to find them using all the latest instruments in a competent manner (though they all seem to employ an unusually large number of assistants - each time I've had something done there is anywhere from 3-5 assistants crowded around while the doc is working).

I have no hesitation with going back to them should the need arise and if someone asked I would recommend them. However, one must keep in mind that not everyone will have the exact same experiences I had (or react to dentists the way I normally do) and it is quite possible that there may be completely different staff working there now (bars aren't the only places that experience high staff turn-over rates it seems).

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

To have a regulator means nothing if they don't impose the regulations they are supposed to. To assume that Thailand have a problem similar to Australia (and many other western countries) is your right OP but I just smile at people that think everything is better in the west.

[Sandy Freckle]

I've just finished the latest of a series of dental remediation treatments in Bkk…, and realistically I've only ever hoped…, that in 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years time I could look back and say to myself…., "That dental treatment plan back in 2013 - 15 actually worked"

Edited July 6, 2015 by Sandy Freckle

[spidermike007]

Thousands of people from all over the world come to Thailand for dental treatment because of its excellence and value for money. Many of them are Australians. They go to well-known dentists at large clinics and hospitals where many of the dentists have been trained overseas, so the article is a lot of nonsense. It probably originated from some discontented Australian dentists. who were losing out business to Thailand

When I was living in Australia I travelled to Thailand for dental treatment because of the ridiculously high cost in Australia. I needed a new denture. The one I had made in Australia only lasted three years and the one I had made in Thailand not only cost quarter of the price but it has lasted me already 8 years.

It kind of depends. I needed alot of dental work done in the US over 10 years ago. I called about 40 dentists at random and asked for a quote on 10 porcelain crowns. Half would not give me a quote over the phone. I eliminated them. Of the rest, one gave me a very low quote of $400 each. I was intrigued. Went there and met a very nice, Korean American gentleman who turned out to be a great dentist. Had him do one crown and it turned out to be the best dental work of my life. He did all nine later. Thrilled with the work to this day. He explained his practice is mostly immigrants. So, the prices reflected that. My point is that you never know. If you just walk in and ask for a quote you will be taken for a ride. Shop around.

[SaintLouisBlues]

What you allege about the Thai healthcare system may be true, but you provide no evidence of any kind. You allege endemic graft and corruption in the Thai healthcare system, but you provide no substantiation of any kind. In the absence of evidence, your view amounts to nothing more than a prejudice. You have not identified any actual problem in Thai healthcare, whether of the dental variety or any other.

I do love a poster with a sense of humour