SURVEY: Should Greece be allowed to remain in the Eurozone?

[stickylies]

This is what happens to a nation built on corruption...

The whole EU was built on corruption (inherent to perverse capitalism).

massive scandals in each and every state. Then, now and tomorrow.

Everybody knew what was going on in Greece decades ago but the European dream (utopia) was more important (read: profitable) for the policy makers...

Yes utopia does not exist...except of course Marxist utopia in which nobody has any money to take from

jup, it's useles/hopeless because no matter what system, there will always be humans involved. the most perverted species on earth.

[stickylies]

Get rid of the parasite and bloodsucker nation.................they will never pay back all those billions of euro they already got.....

indeed, and also that we knew already for ages, the farce continues, 555

[stickylies]

Varoufakis has resigned over concerns that creditors no longer want him at the negotiating table.

Hopefully, as a gesture of good will, Draghi will resign too (surely he can go back to Goldman Sachs), and also Dijsselbloem (he can start a career as second hand car salesman or as time share expert, he has the perfect suit for it). Lagarde will have more difficulty finding a job, as she only got her current job because the IMF needed a woman, after the Straus Kahn debacle.

LOL @ dijsselbloem comment

[thaigold]

What a shame. Europe claims it has a "Union," but hangs out its weakest members to dry. And notice; as Greece founders, not one word of encouragement or implied assistance from the West. Unbelievable! So ... instead of assisting Greece - a brother in the "Union" they humiliate and chastise Greece like it was a naughty child. Sickening.
Come on Germany, as you were forgiven once, so forgive Greece and move forward. It is, after all, the right thing to do. Only cowards abuse the weak and fallen - do the right thing.

[thaigold]

This is simply wrong... Lehman Bros went bankrupt in 2008 for 10 times the amount Greece "owes" to the ECB; the IMF; and the international bankers. The Federal Reserve opened its banking window; and let the US taxpayer pickup the bill. Now if the US can rescue one corrupt bank to save the system, why can't the EU (with 500 million people) not save Greece? If Germany is allowed to throw Greece to the wolves, who's next?

[stickylies]

^^ germany was forgiven TWICE...

Edited July 6, 2015 by stickylies

[elgordo38]

Greece has created her own financial problems through decades of nepotism and government mismanagement. She has tried to avoid them by borrowing more and more (and schemes like trying to sue/shame Germany into paying off their debts) instead of making fundamental changes, and has now defaulted on her debts.

The Greeks refuse to give up the posh system they've grown used to, that is (apparently) financed in large part with that borrowed money. Up to 1/3rd of working Greeks are employed by their government ! They can't tax the other 2/3rds enough to pay for that and all other functions of their government. Add to that what is a (comparatively) plush pension scheme and it's little wonder they are so far in debt that they are now in default of their obligations.

When the previous government agreed to start making changes in return for "bail out" money, the Greeks protested. Instead of tightening up their belts, accepting responsibility for their own situation and trying to make changes, they voted in a government who promised to reverse those changes and go back to "the good old days". It seems the new government's entire fiscal plan was based on trying to sue Germany for money it alleges it is owed from a bank loan it made back during World War 2 ! Even if that had of somehow miraculously happened, all it would have done is pay down some of what they currently owe, not all of it, and the debt would continue to grow as they continue to spend more than they take in.

Obviously their plan failed and the EuroZone and IMF people are getting tired of throwing money into a bottomless pit. Too many other countries have been in financial difficulties recently and needing bail outs. Too many are starting to think along the same lines - we'll just overspend and borrow more until we can't afford to pay and then demand that our debts be forgiven or there'll be another "crisis". Every time there is a crisis they know there is the possibility that the Euro will lose value and therefore drag down the economies of the more affluent members (the ones who actually pay their debts and provide the money to bail out the others).

At some point you have to draw the line. At some point these debtor countries have to start taking responsibility for their own actions. If Greece can't pay her debts now, even with all the bail-out money she's been given in the past, how on earth does she think she can afford to go it alone (i.e. withdraw from the Euro). Go the Zimbabwe route of constant currency devaluations and start printing Trillion Drachma bills that won't even buy a loaf of bread ?

As for the EuroZone, perhaps it would be better to boot Greece out as all it would really do is strengthen the Euro by having one less liability draining resources from the rest. Most of the market turmoil has probably already happened as various entities hedge their bets one way or another and all their PhD talents have determined all the various outcomes already. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and move on. Maybe that time is now.

That's just my opinion though, which is worth about as much as the ink this is printed on !

One senior was waiting in line to cash a $133 pension check. I do not consider that excessive. Yes the past governments have created the present problem. Its to bad they cannot be held accountable much like the big banks and the derivative scandal of 2009. Today people make money and disappear to leave others holding the bag.

[Orac]

I assume the issue is not just the Greek govt debt but also all Greek private and corporate debt since any reversion to a new currency away from the euro would leave anyone with a debt in euros in a mess if/when the new currency loses value against the euro which I basically the same as happened to Thailand in 1997 when the dollar peg was dropped but all the property developers had USD loans.

Has anyone checked if Corfu is on eBay yet?

[SheungWan]

Whether Greece remains in the eurozone is an abstract question. They can be one foot in and one foot out. The real question is whether the eurozone should break its rules and pay further monies to Greece without structural changes. If Greece starts issuing New Drachmas then there will be a dual currency system, hence it is not a sudden in or out operation.

[ggold]

With Greece having voted 'no' in the referendum, will they be forced to leave the Eurozone? Can they voluntarily leave? Is there a mechanism in place for an exit?

I think either scenario is possible. There may not be a mechanism for an exit, I believe thay are making it up as they go along. Doesn't really matter who is to blame, they both Greece and the EU share that blame. But it has been interesting to see the disunity of the EU. They have shown there is no democracy in the EU. You either do as they say or they get nasty.

The unelected bureaurocrats seem to think they can tell nation states what they must do. Regardless of what the citizens of than nation might feel. That they resort to blackmail of a nation is very telling. And should speak volumes re any renagotiations the UK will be looking for. Better out than in, why would the UK want to tie it's future to what is becoming a failed project. It makes no sense.

I have noticed that while this has all been going on the value of the Euro has dropped, that this must be good for the Euro economies regarding exports. So is this a smoke screen?

If you think this has just been an arm twisting process, regardless of what the vote is and what the Eurocrats have threatened. They would not allow the Euro to collapse, They would keep Greece afloat regardless, then the drop in value is helping the Euro economies at the expense of Greece, for the time being!

I would like to see the Euro collapse, with Greece in or out. Doesn't matter to me. But to stay in a union which has behaved the way it has to Greece, When they all fudged the issue from the start. The Euro doesn't and cannot work the way things are set up without more political union. It will go sooner or later.

The UK cannot be part of the EU if we keep the £, not if there is more political union.

Greece, Spain, Portugal, and probably a few other EU contries should never have joined the Euro. Even France is going to wish it was not part of the Euro at some stage in the next five years.

Edited July 6, 2015 by ggold

[Andrew65]

They should not have been a member of the EU in the first place.

Let’s say as an entrepreneur I would have successfully gained credit from a bank by providing modified balances. Let’s assume the value of the credit was much higher than the value of my company. Than I refuse to pay any installments, and referred to the repayment demand of the Bank as extortion. In a next step I hold a referendum to let my staff decide if I should pay my debts. At this point I would be in custody already awaiting my trial without room for negotiations with the prosecutor. So who is the OXI here?

ev

From what I have learnt in these years of economic crisis, I believe that this is what's known as moral-hazard. (A term thought to have originated in the insurance industry).

[MockingJay]

Greece, along with many other unproductive, corrupt to the core and chaotic others should not have been allowed to be in the Eurozone in the first place plus was the whole Euro travesty bound to fail from the very start. Germany will pay for all failed states to the bitter end and will be the very last ship to sink in the coming disastrous superstorm.

Edited July 6, 2015 by MockingJay

[Andrew65]

Whether Greece remains in the eurozone is an abstract question. They can be one foot in and one foot out. The real question is whether the eurozone should break its rules and pay further monies to Greece without structural changes. If Greece starts issuing New Drachmas then there will be a dual currency system, hence it is not a sudden in or out operation.

...but I thought that Eurozone countries bailing-out others, was against the rules that underpinned the Euro at it's inception!?

(Weren't France & Germany the first countries to contravene the Growth & Stability Pact (3%), the French stating that only the "small" countries had to comply, in fact the same French that insisted that Greece be allowed into the Eurozone!?).

[ggold]

They should not have been a member of the EU in the first place.

Let’s say as an entrepreneur I would have successfully gained credit from a bank by providing modified balances. Let’s assume the value of the credit was much higher than the value of my company. Than I refuse to pay any installments, and referred to the repayment demand of the Bank as extortion. In a next step I hold a referendum to let my staff decide if I should pay my debts. At this point I would be in custody already awaiting my trial without room for negotiations with the prosecutor. So who is the OXI here?

It gets to the stage where if you borrowed enough money from the bank, You own the bank! Because the bank can't afford to lose billions, a few million and they have you by the short and curlies! If you owe them billions then you have them by the short and curlies.

So this has been a tug of war between short and curlies. Who will win Merkel of Tzipras?

[VIPinthailand]

I don't mind to give 500 euro to Greece if I can make a 7% from my stocks this year.

so far it has been a disaster and could have been worse.

and this is what will happen soon , they will cancel their Greek debt so we can go on track.

[anon4546543]

If Greece is forced to exit the Eurozone, then who do they turn to. The Russians? The Chinese? Is NATO going to give these 2 countries all that area to build bases? Fat chance. Eurozone is now propping up so many countries and it is dragging the whole of Europe down. Eurozone will not allow a Greece exit and soon the whole sham will collapse due to lack of hard and fiat cash. For European citizens, I would buy a mixture of currencies and none of them being European.

[Lukecan]

I say kick all of them out, with the exception of costas of course.

[melvinmelvin]

If Greece is forced to exit the Eurozone, then who do they turn to. The Russians? The Chinese? Is NATO going to give these 2 countries all that area to build bases? Fat chance. Eurozone is now propping up so many countries and it is dragging the whole of Europe down. Eurozone will not allow a Greece exit and soon the whole sham will collapse due to lack of hard and fiat cash. For European citizens, I would buy a mixture of currencies and none of them being European.

What do you mean forced to leave he Eurozone?

There are no legal provisions in the treaty for forcing any member out of the Eurozone.

There are no legal provisions in the treaty for leaving the Eurozone by own will.

Greece may leave the EU, there are provisions for that.

[stickylies]

If Greece is forced to exit the Eurozone, then who do they turn to. The Russians? The Chinese? Is NATO going to give these 2 countries all that area to build bases? Fat chance. Eurozone is now propping up so many countries and it is dragging the whole of Europe down. Eurozone will not allow a Greece exit and soon the whole sham will collapse due to lack of hard and fiat cash. For European citizens, I would buy a mixture of currencies and none of them being European.

i'm thinking about buying a greece island... with euros.

[Wat dee]

DP

Edited July 6, 2015 by Wat dee

[Wat dee]

Is the question really 'should Greece be allowed to say in the Eurozone?' or should it be 'does Greece gain any advantage by staying in the Eurozone?'. I suspect that the answer to both questions is probably No.

The ECB, the IMF and Germany are partly to blame for this mess. Let me make an analogy: back in the '90s and early '00s the US banks were handing out money like drunken sailors. Then, the US economy slowed and crashed and over a 10 year period (2005 to 2015), 1 out of 4 US homeowners lost their homes to bank foreclosure. Now Greece's creditors are in the same position as the US Banks were a few years ago when millions of people were defaulting on their loans. However, there is one important difference. Greece's debtors cannot kick the Greeks out of their houses and sell them off to repay the debt! These sovereign debts are basically unsecured loans and if Greece defaults, their debtors have no real recourse.

If I were in charge of Greece, I would do two things:

1.print Drachma's and have them loaded into the ATM's this morning.

2.declare bankruptcy and negotiate repayment of the loans on a basis of 20 cents on the Euro.

They can't print,mint and plates were destroyed when they entered EU

[tomacht8]

They should leave the euro zone.

They can form a common economic space along with Albania.

[ABCer]

I voted "no" for the following reasons.

General considerations:

- as somebody put it nicely I cannot own property before paying off mortgage;

- many countries would like to repeat the stunt by borrowing and not paying back;

- even if Greece is forgiven and the debt written off the conditions that brought the existing crisis still exist;

Political considerations:

- Greece is facing an enormous internal challenge;

- first and immediate is financial structure... cannot see their banking system work outside Euro (what money?);

- people and economy are hurting already ... and their banks are not to be trusted internally and externally;

- may God save them from nationalization ... things will get much, much worse (it is a manner of speech only, Greeks God is different);

- but the up-side is - this small nation has no immediate enemies prone to aggression;

- the only real danger - they will have to learn to work for living and it isn't easy in the present politico-economic climate;

- I am trying to be optimistic looking at Israelis. Why Greeks couldn't do the same? But only if they are going to make a giant effort;

Religious considerations:

- to those asking what Religion has to do with it my answer is "nothing... and everything";

- making a giant effort requires a certain quality. Israelis have it. Not sure about Greeks but I wish they do because I love Greece;

- present day Greeks Religion is Orthodox Christian - the same as Russians. Makes me less optimistic... but I really do not wish to go into further controversy.

All said above is on IMHO basis. Not intent of hurting anybody's feelings.

[sawadee1947]

With Greece having voted 'no' in the referendum, will they be forced to leave the Eurozone? Can they voluntarily leave? Is there a mechanism in place for an exit?

I think either scenario is possible. There may not be a mechanism for an exit, I believe thay are making it up as they go along. Doesn't really matter who is to blame, they both Greece and the EU share that blame. But it has been interesting to see the disunity of the EU. They have shown there is no democracy in the EU. You either do as they say or they get nasty.

The unelected bureaurocrats seem to think they can tell nation states what they must do. Regardless of what the citizens of than nation might feel. That they resort to blackmail of a nation is very telling. And should speak volumes re any renagotiations the UK will be looking for. Better out than in, why would the UK want to tie it's future to what is becoming a failed project. It makes no sense.

I have noticed that while this has all been going on the value of the Euro has dropped, that this must be good for the Euro economies regarding exports. So is this a smoke screen?

If you think this has just been an arm twisting process, regardless of what the vote is and what the Eurocrats have threatened. They would not allow the Euro to collapse, They would keep Greece afloat regardless, then the drop in value is helping the Euro economies at the expense of Greece, for the time being!

I would like to see the Euro collapse, with Greece in or out. Doesn't matter to me. But to stay in a union which has behaved the way it has to Greece, When they all fudged the issue from the start. The Euro doesn't and cannot work the way things are set up without more political union. It will go sooner or later.

The UK cannot be part of the EU if we keep the £, not if there is more political union.

Greece, Spain, Portugal, and probably a few other EU contries should never have joined the Euro. Even France is going to wish it was not part of the Euro at some stage in the next five years.

I appreciate you are a fortune teller. Me too: if UK is so stupid to leave EU it will collapse, because imports would be amazing expensive. Same to exports. UK would be cut off from all markets. And to have a currency just for such a little Island...?

But God sake there are people who do not thinks as you = majority, who knows the advantage of having an elected European parliament.

[ggold]

With Greece having voted 'no' in the referendum, will they be forced to leave the Eurozone? Can they voluntarily leave? Is there a mechanism in place for an exit?

I think either scenario is possible. There may not be a mechanism for an exit, I believe thay are making it up as they go along. Doesn't really matter who is to blame, they both Greece and the EU share that blame. But it has been interesting to see the disunity of the EU. They have shown there is no democracy in the EU. You either do as they say or they get nasty.

The unelected bureaurocrats seem to think they can tell nation states what they must do. Regardless of what the citizens of than nation might feel. That they resort to blackmail of a nation is very telling. And should speak volumes re any renagotiations the UK will be looking for. Better out than in, why would the UK want to tie it's future to what is becoming a failed project. It makes no sense.

I have noticed that while this has all been going on the value of the Euro has dropped, that this must be good for the Euro economies regarding exports. So is this a smoke screen?

If you think this has just been an arm twisting process, regardless of what the vote is and what the Eurocrats have threatened. They would not allow the Euro to collapse, They would keep Greece afloat regardless, then the drop in value is helping the Euro economies at the expense of Greece, for the time being!

I would like to see the Euro collapse, with Greece in or out. Doesn't matter to me. But to stay in a union which has behaved the way it has to Greece, When they all fudged the issue from the start. The Euro doesn't and cannot work the way things are set up without more political union. It will go sooner or later.

The UK cannot be part of the EU if we keep the £, not if there is more political union.

Greece, Spain, Portugal, and probably a few other EU contries should never have joined the Euro. Even France is going to wish it was not part of the Euro at some stage in the next five years.

I appreciate you are a fortune teller. Me too: if UK is so stupid to leave EU it will collapse, because imports would be amazing expensive. Same to exports. UK would be cut off from all markets. And to have a currency just for such a little Island...?

But God sake there are people who do not thinks as you = majority, who knows the advantage of having an elected European parliament.

There is a saying

" Never lay all your eggs in one backet" That is exactly what the EU is a single Backet, which is on the verge of collapse becuase the whole system is bankrupt not just financially!

And the UK imports far more from the EU than we export to the EU. So no there would be no cut off from markets and imports would not be amazing expensive.

If the UK didn't have its currency of such a little island it would be in worse a possition than it is. This little island currency is actually stronger than the Euro and always has been.

While we may vote for MEP's to represent our individual countries. We have no say in who is selected to govern over us The Bureaucrats chose their own for such possitions. There is nothing democratic about how they operate as has been shown with the way they have treated Greece.

God has nothing to do with it, only peoples stupidity.

[hawker9000]

With Greece having voted 'no' in the referendum, will they be forced to leave the Eurozone? Can they voluntarily leave? Is there a mechanism in place for an exit?

You have to sympathize with the 40% who voted Yes, but will now be dragged into the abyss by the soft-headed, short-sighted, dim-witted majority who couldn't see that at least some percent of something is better than 100% of nothing.

Buh-bye Greece.

[Stargeezr]

I had not realized just how much, each country in this so called Euro zone,

had to pay to be a part of it. Wow!, no wonder that even Britain is saying that they

want out. I wonder that if or when Greece is out, will the news stories

switch over to Italy or some other country that has huge problems as well.

What a mess! I think that Greece had major corruption problems with

so many people either not paying taxes, or hiding things like errr swimming pools

etc., that they should have paid tax on, but did not. How about over paid

people in so many professions, and government, who totally helped Greece get

so far in debt. I hope the other countries in the EU get their debts down

because Greece is only the tip of this ice burg.

[hawker9000]

I had not realized just how much, each country in this so called Euro zone,

had to pay to be a part of it. Wow!, no wonder that even Britain is saying that they

want out. I wonder that if or when Greece is out, will the news stories

switch over to Italy or some other country that has huge problems as well.

What a mess! I think that Greece had major corruption problems with

so many people either not paying taxes, or hiding things like errr swimming pools

etc., that they should have paid tax on, but did not. How about over paid

people in so many professions, and government, who totally helped Greece get

so far in debt. I hope the other countries in the EU get their debts down

because Greece is only the tip of this ice burg.

You're not getting this. The problem isn't that Greece wasn't collecting its taxes. It apparently wasn't, but the U.S. has a shoot-first-ask-questions-later IRS (and supporting judiciary) if there ever was one, with its financial-tracking tentacles reaching worldwide (literally), and it's still $18 trillion in debt (and rising)! Socialist and socialist-leaning governments inevitably hit this brick wall, sooner or later, nazi tax collectors or no, over-accommodating central banks or no. The masses have been hornswoggled by the left into this "we-must-spend-our-way-out-of-debt-screw-austerity" snake oil - hard to imagine anything more ludicrous - and it's just bankrupting even the most developed countries. You did get that last part right though; probably just the tip of the iceberg.

Edited July 7, 2015 by hawker9000

[NeverSure]

This is simply wrong... Lehman Bros went bankrupt in 2008 for 10 times the amount Greece "owes" to the ECB; the IMF; and the international bankers. The Federal Reserve opened its banking window; and let the US taxpayer pickup the bill. Now if the US can rescue one corrupt bank to save the system, why can't the EU (with 500 million people) not save Greece? If Germany is allowed to throw Greece to the wolves, who's next?

This is totally incorrect. Lehman wasn't rescued by anyone. It was allowed to fail which is a loss to the stockholders.

In order to have qualified for a bailout, it would have needed to qualify for a loan - have the ability to pay it back. The Fed didn't touch it.

Greece doesn't qualify for a bailout because it can't show any of the three C's of creditworthiness - Capacity (ability to pay), Credit History, Collateral.

The New York Times - The bailout that never was.

[teatree]

Love him or hate him, Farage has been bang on about the Euro for years. Here is a clip from the Euro's 10th anniversary in 2009.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DlVFKBwbuU