Looking for advice on a Thai yabaa problem

[ozyjon]

Any advice...welcome...

I'm certainly no expert on this subject... But I have the impression...that once people get hooked on yabaa.... they rarely WANT to help themselves off it.

I don't know about being hooked on yabba (Ketamine?) but it is an antisocial drug, unlike coke or other amphetamines, so the liklihood is the social group he is using it with and what they get up to when they dabble is part of the addiction.

Removing that is hard as I mentioned earlier, change of scenery is the best way to remove that element. Then you have to deal with the physical addiction itself. Every hour you spend high on this stuff equals 3-4 hours of horrible hangover/ withdrawal, if he's using it every day then I have no idea.......

If I was in your shoes and this person was a friend of mine (example - full disclaimer), I would get out of town immediately to some remote beach location away from it all. I would get him drunk and chasing tail by night and out getting daylight exercise by day while eating normally. Physical exertion and nutrition are fundamental to eliminating the residual chemicals however motivation is a real stumbling block and that is why you need a wingman/ friend. If the waking hours were too difficult there are medications that can help with cold turkey. You can start to understand why hospitals over prescribe pills alone because they have to manage a large group of cases in a confined space and they just don't have the wherewithal to attend personally.

Your main objective is to get him hooked on something else that is acceptable and remove his desire to be part of whatever circle it is he is currently involved with.

Do some research on the drug and talk to a doctor about withdrawal, that is if you really want to help. You can only do so much though, as eventually he has to go on his way.

You advocate doing research on the drug, yet you think Yaba might be Ketamine?

I suggest you read this article which explains a bit more what Yaba is - http://www.drugs-info.co.uk/drugpages/yaba/yaba.html

********************************************************************************************************************

Thanks for the link,,, i remember a similar post some time ago, after reading it i also

remember other drugs being concocted in kitchens in many countries.

THE INGREDIENTS,,,,,,,

'' The main ingredients, which include salt, household cleaning products, distilled

cold medicines and lithium from camera batteries,''

Who in their right mind would swallow this concoction and not expect to have fire ants crawling

under their skin?

I also understand why cold medicines in some countries need prescriptions and are

monitored

[RasiMike]

My brother in law started on speed when he was a samlor driver in BKK. He ended up on meds prescribed by his Roiet doctor, that left him walking around like a zombie and unable to care for his wife or children. His only 'cure' thus far, has been to get himself into the temple - where he's been for more than 3 years.

My wife and I visited him recently and he has recovered but is reluctant to venture too far from the monks. We offered him employment while he tries to repair the damage done to his wife and children but unfortunately he doesn't fully trust himself. We left the door open by voicing our support and willingness to help when or if he's ready.

It's important to recognize and acknowledge that some people can't control their vices and all the help in the world won't ever be enough. Just a few minutes walk from our home in Australia, a long time ice addict and mother carved up all of her children - from babies to teenage. One of the boys was enrolled in my sons year five class at school and we knew him quite well. Despite years of professional support and ongoing attempts to help this woman, the soft approach didn't work. She couldn't or wouldn't be 'cured' and it ended with her murdering all of her children. It would be better in some cases to just walk away and let them die or help themselves.

[jcisco]

Hearing voices that is a totally different class of reaction to drug abuse, do you know if he was diagnosed as suffering any degree of psychosis or a full psychotic break?

Might want to impart onto him in addition to counselling just how he appeared to behave and recount it all, he may not remember. And make it clear that he risks going into that state again, the results of which can be devastating as they are unpredictable.

[jcisco]

That woman and what she did is not the result of drug abuse, women killing her children is a complex issue. Blaming drugs for it is the easy way, what was a woman who cannot take care of herself, taking care of children.

My brother in law started on speed when he was a samlor driver in BKK. He ended up on meds prescribed by his Roiet doctor, that left him walking around like a zombie and unable to care for his wife or children. His only 'cure' thus far, has been to get himself into the temple - where he's been for more than 3 years.

My wife and I visited him recently and he has recovered but is reluctant to venture too far from the monks. We offered him employment while he tries to repair the damage done to his wife and children but unfortunately he doesn't fully trust himself. We left the door open by voicing our support and willingness to help when or if he's ready.

It's important to recognize and acknowledge that some people can't control their vices and all the help in the world won't ever be enough. Just a few minutes walk from our home in Australia, a long time ice addict and mother carved up all of her children - from babies to teenage. One of the boys was enrolled in my sons year five class at school and we knew him quite well. Despite years of professional support and ongoing attempts to help this woman, the soft approach didn't work. She couldn't or wouldn't be 'cured' and it ended with her murdering all of her children. It would be better in some cases to just walk away and let them die or help themselves.

[Sheryl]

As some other posters have said, there is no way to commit someone against their will without a court order. So what the family undetstandably wants -- a way to force him into rehab without involving the police etc '- is not possible.

I would add that the likelihood of success in rehab when it is forced on an unwilling person is low.

In a situation like this, until and unless he is motivated to change, the best course of action is to take steps to protect the rest of the family from his behavior. Which may involve some hard choices. I suggest you advise the family to contact Al-Anon which is a support group for the family members of substance abusers. Google Al-Anon thailand or see pinned notice in the drink too much sub forum. They will get emotional support and practical advice from people who have faced the same problem. It is free of charge and anonymous.

[jcisco]

Sorry for being negative... but it is going to get much worse.. like it was said... in drug rehab.. no matter where you are in the world. The person got to help himself first otherwise everything he or she is going through now is only temporary.

What I suggest is some outside field trips to drug houses, take him to jail or prison and let him see his future.. because what it sounds like that is his future if he doesn't get help. Take him to a home for HIV victims etc... take the gloves off and let him see his future. All one can hope is something clicks before he hits rock bottom. Another the family might be the problem time to cut him off. All harder said than done..

Do you have any firsthand experience with problematic drug abusers, first hand or professional experience.

OR

Actually read any of the studies that have been published in the last 30 years?

[RasiMike]

That woman and what she did is not the result of drug abuse, women killing her children is a complex issue. Blaming drugs for it is the easy way, what was a woman who cannot take care of herself, taking care of children.

My brother in law started on speed when he was a samlor driver in BKK. He ended up on meds prescribed by his Roiet doctor, that left him walking around like a zombie and unable to care for his wife or children. His only 'cure' thus far, has been to get himself into the temple - where he's been for more than 3 years.

My wife and I visited him recently and he has recovered but is reluctant to venture too far from the monks. We offered him employment while he tries to repair the damage done to his wife and children but unfortunately he doesn't fully trust himself. We left the door open by voicing our support and willingness to help when or if he's ready.

It's important to recognize and acknowledge that some people can't control their vices and all the help in the world won't ever be enough. Just a few minutes walk from our home in Australia, a long time ice addict and mother carved up all of her children - from babies to teenage. One of the boys was enrolled in my sons year five class at school and we knew him quite well. Despite years of professional support and ongoing attempts to help this woman, the soft approach didn't work. She couldn't or wouldn't be 'cured' and it ended with her murdering all of her children. It would be better in some cases to just walk away and let them die or help themselves.

Hi jcisco

Like most, I've known circles of individuals where all types of drugs are used and enjoyed by people of many different socioeconomic backgrounds, with no real detrimental effects. Just as I've seen where they've used and abused by individuals from the same ilk, that have suffered more serious issues. I firmly believe that drugs, just as firearms, alcohol, fatty foods and motor vehicles don't kill people.

I can't agree in the above case mate, as I have associates in the local government community/healthcare professions that know this woman and have firsthand, long term knowledge of the case and the family situation.

The woman was suffering from drug psychosis and had been "talking with god and other entities' and displaying the classic physical behaviours of amphetamine psychosis for a long time. Unfortunately in some places, taking endangered children from members of certain ethnic/cultural backgrounds is now considered 'taboo' and is not so easy to do no matter how dysfunctional of psychotic a guardian may be.

[jcisco]

That woman and what she did is not the result of drug abuse, women killing her children is a complex issue. Blaming drugs for it is the easy way, what was a woman who cannot take care of herself, taking care of children.

My brother in law started on speed when he was a samlor driver in BKK. He ended up on meds prescribed by his Roiet doctor, that left him walking around like a zombie and unable to care for his wife or children. His only 'cure' thus far, has been to get himself into the temple - where he's been for more than 3 years.

My wife and I visited him recently and he has recovered but is reluctant to venture too far from the monks. We offered him employment while he tries to repair the damage done to his wife and children but unfortunately he doesn't fully trust himself. We left the door open by voicing our support and willingness to help when or if he's ready.

It's important to recognize and acknowledge that some people can't control their vices and all the help in the world won't ever be enough. Just a few minutes walk from our home in Australia, a long time ice addict and mother carved up all of her children - from babies to teenage. One of the boys was enrolled in my sons year five class at school and we knew him quite well. Despite years of professional support and ongoing attempts to help this woman, the soft approach didn't work. She couldn't or wouldn't be 'cured' and it ended with her murdering all of her children. It would be better in some cases to just walk away and let them die or help themselves.

Hi jcisco

Like most, I've known circles of individuals where all types of drugs are used and enjoyed by people of many different socioeconomic backgrounds, with no real detrimental effects. Just as I've seen where they've used and abused by individuals from the same ilk, that have suffered more serious issues. I firmly believe that drugs, just as firearms, alcohol, fatty foods and motor vehicles don't kill people.

I can't agree in the above case mate, as I have associates in the local government community/healthcare professions that know this woman and have firsthand, long term knowledge of the case and the family situation.

The woman was suffering from drug psychosis and had been "talking with god and other entities' and displaying the classic physical behaviours of amphetamine psychosis for a long time. Unfortunately in some places, taking endangered children from members of certain ethnic/cultural backgrounds is now considered 'taboo' and is not so easy to do no matter how dysfunctional of psychotic a guardian may be.

I get what you are saying, ok, understood. Unfortunately there definitely some outliers in all things, such extreme cases are rather sad.

All bets are off once someone dives accross that line into psychotic wonderland, be it if they get there from abusing a drug or tearing themselves apart with anxiety.

EDIT: Thanks for the well considered reply .

Edited July 8, 2015 by jcisco

[thailand49]

Sorry for being negative... but it is going to get much worse.. like it was said... in drug rehab.. no matter where you are in the world. The person got to help himself first otherwise everything he or she is going through now is only temporary.

What I suggest is some outside field trips to drug houses, take him to jail or prison and let him see his future.. because what it sounds like that is his future if he doesn't get help. Take him to a home for HIV victims etc... take the gloves off and let him see his future. All one can hope is something clicks before he hits rock bottom. Another the family might be the problem time to cut him off. All harder said than done..

Do you have any firsthand experience with problematic drug abusers, first hand or professional experience.

OR

Actually read any of the studies that have been published in the last 30 years?

I will be the first here to admit I do not have a answer for this poster situation. I seriously doubt you do too! Run through all the post if you like and criticize again if you like. But no one has a answer!

I do not know if this is considered firsthand experience with problematic drug abusers. But I grew up with gangs and drugs all around me. My cousin who was my age, like my sister, who kept me out of trouble but couldn't help herself died at age 16 from a drug overdose. A number of my other High school friends also died from drugs. My best friend, at 18 years of age was involved in drugs and gangs we stopped hanging around because of it. One day I got a called from him he had just returned from rehab and we got together for a movie to catch up. After the movie while walking home a car pull up and shot him.

What I do know is you can force someone, jailed him, keep him lock up and dry him up.. but as the poster said himself go back and read instead of criticizing that the son does not want to be there given the choice he still want the yabba! But unless, he wants the help himself the % of success is small. This is no different than any other addiction including smoking.

I made a suggestion, in a situation like this maybe letting him see, talk, to others who have gone through the same thing maybe shocking him might help. Again, I am far from a expert and like many we are grasping for straw to try to help in the only way we can.

You seem to have the answer and expertise.. so give it.. instead of being part of the problem think about being the solution. Up to now you have provided nothing!

Edited July 8, 2015 by thailand49

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The only thing I don't understand is you said they spoke to the police and they weren't interested. Surely if they are informed he is using it they must do something like ask him where he's getting it from at least.

No, you misread or misunderstood what I wrote... The family has had no contact with the police, and the police never on their own encountered the guy despite his drug use.

The court judge that the family did speak with said he could not order the individual to be confined for rehab UNLESS the police filed a drug case against him.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I suggest you advise the family to contact Al-Anon which is a support group for the family members of substance abusers. Google Al-Anon thailand or see pinned notice in the drink too much sub forum. They will get emotional support and practical advice from people who have faced the same problem. It is free of charge and anonymous.

Sheryl, here in Thailand, do you know, is there a separate Narc-Anon for drug related things -- different than Al-Anon... Or are both under the Al-Anon roof here?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Once again, I'd like to say thanks to all those who have offered comments and suggestions here.... Much appreciated.

I particularly took to heart the episode one person recounted of a family getting hauled off to jail after they went on a trip with a drug using family member and were stopped with drugs that person had in their car.

I hope others of you can understand, given Thai culture and this being a decent family, that it's just not in their realm of thinking to walk away from the drug user, their child and sibling. I doubt anything I could say or advise would change their mind about that. So I guess I'll just have to watch and see how things play out.

Meanwhile, on a more positive note, since no one here as yet seems to have mentioned it... In my research and conversations on this, I did come across a network of Thai government run hospitals that seem specifically targeted to dealing with drug abusers. They go under the common name of Thanyarak and there appear to be at least a half dozen locations spread out around the country.

But from what the family is telling me, the Thanyarak hospitals only accept patients in two situations: 1, they volunteer to be admitted, or 2, they are referred by the police/criminal courts. So at least right now, they're not a viable option in this family's situation.

But for others who may find the info useful, here's a website for Thanyarak that includes links to 6 different hospitals:

http://www.thanyarak.go.th/eng/

And, as I was noodling around their website, it turns out they have posted there some documents that look to be a pretty comprehensive list of all different kinds of inpatient and outpatient drug treatment programs around the country. So I'll post a link to those documents here as well, they're divided into public hospitals, private hospitals-clinics and rehabilitation centers.

http://www.thanyarak.go.th/eng/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1638&Itemid=132

[mmh8]

there was a particular term made for speed - speed psychosis - which is must like what you describe,

despite what anyone tells you, giving up any drug is a decision and a real want. you won't be able to help anyone who has not made that decision.

can try shock tactics, find out where the local druggies are, show them the life these people lead in various stages of mess up.

[mankondang]

Hi.

As a retired Drugs and Alcohol Councillor I empathise with you and your friend and his family.

Reading TV I see much well intended information on a topic that is not well funded in the best of countries, least a relatively poor country like Thailand.

Please try and contact this Wat which used to cater for Drug and Alcohol Detoxification and Rehabilitation here in Thailand.

Wat Tham Krabok

T. Kooklone

A. Phraphuttabat

Saraburi 18120

Tel. 036 266 292

Google the Wat for more info

The wat operates on donations so I do of know if they still offer this service. But contact them for advice at least.

I congratulate you on your humanity.. Jai dii

[mankondang]

Can a monastery "keep" someone??? Did the monks know/understand why the girl had been brought there?

[mankondang]

Try to contact:

Wat Tham Krabok

T. Kooklone

A. Phraphuttabat

Saraburi 18120

The. 036 266 292

Google Wat Tham Krabok, Thailand for their website and contact them for info.

I am a retired AOD councillor with a Masters Degree...but have little knowledge of this wat other than to say it is an AOD detox and rehab center who's modalities make farang centers seem like a picknick..but they have a good success rate.

May I add that you are now in what we call the Intervention Stage and the advise here is to work on the clients Ambivalence to drugs...ask " what's good about taking drugs"..listen. Then ask "What's bad to you about taking drug" Listen and reinforce his answers to the latter do so in a calm none judgemental non critical way. You may help him want to change. Persevere and congratulations on be a good humanitarian.

[mankondang]

Yes. Please contact them.

Your at what is know as the "Intervention Stage" the first stage. Work on the guys ambivalence to drugs. Ask what's good about them. Listen. Then ask what's bad about taking them. Listen and work on the latter in a patient nonjudgmental non critical way. You may get him to into the wat and they will take up the next Stages of Detoxification and Rehabiliitaion. Family support is needed here. Then on discharge the family can help (as does organizations such as AA or DA or whatever) in Relaps Prevention. All the best.

[Sheryl]

I suggest you advise the family to contact Al-Anon which is a support group for the family members of substance abusers. Google Al-Anon thailand or see pinned notice in the drink too much sub forum. They will get emotional support and practical advice from people who have faced the same problem. It is free of charge and anonymous.

Sheryl, here in Thailand, do you know, is there a separate Narc-Anon for drug related things -- different than Al-Anon... Or are both under the Al-Anon roof here?

Both in Thailand and elsewhere, there is NA (Narcotics Anonymous, for drug users), AA (Alcoholic Anonymous, for drinkers) and then Al-Anon for the families of either one.

The issues for families are largely the same whether the person is abusing alcohol or drugs...in both cases they have to learn to accept the limits of what they can do in regard to someone else's choices and behavior, deal with the problems it causes them and find ways to minimize the impact on themselves etc etc

[Sheryl]

Once again, I'd like to say thanks to all those who have offered comments and suggestions here.... Much appreciated.

I particularly took to heart the episode one person recounted of a family getting hauled off to jail after they went on a trip with a drug using family member and were stopped with drugs that person had in their car.

I hope others of you can understand, given Thai culture and this being a decent family, that it's just not in their realm of thinking to walk away from the drug user, their child and sibling. I doubt anything I could say or advise would change their mind about that. So I guess I'll just have to watch and see how things play out.

Meanwhile, on a more positive note, since no one here as yet seems to have mentioned it... In my research and conversations on this, I did come across a network of Thai government run hospitals that seem specifically targeted to dealing with drug abusers. They go under the common name of Thanyarak and there appear to be at least a half dozen locations spread out around the country.

But from what the family is telling me, the Thanyarak hospitals only accept patients in two situations: 1, they volunteer to be admitted, or 2, they are referred by the police/criminal courts. So at least right now, they're not a viable option in this family's situation.

But for others who may find the info useful, here's a website for Thanyarak that includes links to 6 different hospitals:

http://www.thanyarak.go.th/eng/

And, as I was noodling around their website, it turns out they have posted there some documents that look to be a pretty comprehensive list of all different kinds of inpatient and outpatient drug treatment programs around the country. So I'll post a link to those documents here as well, they're divided into public hospitals, private hospitals-clinics and rehabilitation centers.

http://www.thanyarak.go.th/eng/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1638&Itemid=132

There is no shortage of rehab places, both public and private, and many are listed in the pinned mental health thread. But none of them will take someone against their will unless court remanded. It is the user's unwillingness that is the issue here, not locating a rehab place.

Not suggesting the family abandon him by any means but they do need to learn how to stay sane themselves despite his continued drug use and to make peace with this awful situation until such a time as he is amenable to trying to change. That is where Al-Anon can help.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks Sheryl.... I didn't know there was an already posted list here of drug and alcohol resources in the pinned thread you mentioned in this forum -- perhaps because it's kind of hiding as a post within a broader thread titled "Mental Health Resource List."

And, I now see you wrote the post within that thread on the drug/alcohol centers....

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/90910-mental-health-resource-list/?p=3610021

FWIW, the documents posted on the Thanyarak website that I linked to above are much more extensive and detailed in terms of types of programs, costs, details etc etc. for places all over the country, both public and private -- all organized in their lists province by province.

Edited July 8, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Deserted]

Manarom Hospital in Bangkok is pretty good I think. Many patients there have similar problems to your man.

[Deserted]

Above all, they must not support him in anyway except possibly food and shelter. Absolutely give him no money. And if he continues, use tough love and kick him out of the dwelling. His continued use in and around the house could cause more grief than anyone needs. I have a neighbor who asked his uncle to take drive him to Mai Sai. The uncle agreed and took his daughter for the ride. They were stopped and a bag of Ya Ba was found in the trunk. The uncle and his daughter swear they did not know the nephew had put it there but all 3 are now languishing in Chiang Rai jail and have been for 9 months.

Pretty shocking story, how many tablets are we talking here? WHat was the sentence they were given?

[Sheryl]

Manoram is indeed very good, but pricey whereas the government programs are free. But again, the key impediment here is not availability of programs. It is the man's willingness. Until he is willing -- or until there is a police case, which frankly if he remains unwilling is likely to occur eventually however much they try to avoid it -- there isn't really anything that can be done in terms of rehab.

Meanwhile the family does indeed need to protect themselves and be careful. If he ever comes to his senses and gets off drugs he is going to have to deal with guilt of all the harm he has caused others. So in protecting themselves they will actually be lessening his burden in the longer run.

[Sheryl]

Thanks Sheryl.... I didn't know there was an already posted list here of drug and alcohol resources in the pinned thread you mentioned in this forum -- perhaps because it's kind of hiding as a post within a broader thread titled "Mental Health Resource List."

And, I now see you wrote the post within that thread on the drug/alcohol centers....

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/90910-mental-health-resource-list/?p=3610021

FWIW, the documents posted on the Thanyarak website that I linked to above are much more extensive and detailed in terms of types of programs, costs, details etc etc. for places all over the country, both public and private -- all organized in their lists province by province.

Thanks for pointing that out. I have added the Thanyarak link and also made a specific pinned thread for drug/alcohol rehab.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just a bit of an update here on the young Thai man that led to my OP...

He was released from the psych hospital where he'd been receiving about two weeks of treatment a few days ago... At that point, he had the opportunity to move back home with his parents. But instead, the day he was released, he disappeared from his family again and apparently went back to the apartment where he'd been staying before (and presumably using drugs).

Within a day, somehow and I don't know the details, he'd been arrested (for the first time) by Thai police for suspected drug use and landed in jail, awaiting a court appearance, which is where he's currently sitting as I write this.

The family is hoping the court in a few days will order him into an extended/mandatory residential drug treatment program, something he wouldn't voluntarily do himself. But apparently that's going to depend on the result of a police-administered drug test that was done at the time of his arrest. If the court doesn't require the mandatory program, it sounds like the other option would be requiring him to show up somewhere once a month for mandatory drug testing, with any further positive tests obviously having consequences.

So, in short, the family shelled out some thousands of baht for his two-week hospital stay, which did dry him out a bit, but apparently did nothing to abate his desire for drugs. From what I can gather, he still has never admitted to his parents or siblings that he's been involved with drugs.

[faraday]

Habits take a long time to acquire & a long time to break. This is even more true for Drug & Alcohol addiction.

He will, no doubt, make many attempts to get off this vile stuff, & if he really wants to, he will suceed eventually.

The underlying reason why he takes Drugs, must be uncovered; it will most probably be very painful for him emotionally.

[Sheryl]

What you describe is absolutely typical. Investments made by family to help someone stop abusing drugs before they themselves are prepared to admit they have a problem and before they themselves want to stop using, are always a waste.

Unfortunately even a prolonged residential program, if court ordered against his will, may not do much.

it all has to start with the individual's readiness to acknowledge there is a problem and desire to change. There is no way to force that.