Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[boomerangutang]

Credit ASTV.. October 22, 2014 22 ตุลาคม 2557 (English Translation Below) from another facebook site

Mao Mao, one of the initial suspects turned main witness for the defense told Radio Free Asia that he is now free. However, two or three off-uniform officers still followed him everywhere. He didn't feel safe so the asked to temporary stay at Burmese Consulate in Bangkok. Three of the six were physically beaten and their bodies scalded with hot water as police attempted to obtain information about the three people who had fled. All six were then released. Police had beaten Mao Mao 3 times to confess but he refused. They also claim he was a man on CCTV. The other 2 Burmese suspects, Zaw and Win, tortured and forced to become scapegoats.

Yes, the police sorely wanted the 3rd Burmese man to confess, for two main reasons:

>>>> not even the RTP's staunchest excusers think the crime was a two-man job, let alone done by two so small.

>>>> Maung Maung resembles the Running Man video much more than either of the two defendants. MM is taller and has bushier hair. However, MM doesn't have the gait and odd arm mannerisms (right arm straight and swung high, left arm bent at stomach) as Nomsod, who, to any reasonable person, is 'Running Man'

[stephenterry]

< snip >

Wow..and so it goes on. 'The Perfect Case'. There has not been one day that the incompetence has not been to the fore. I keep saying it. The best defense is the prosecution. There hasn't been one! And I repeat one credible piece of evidence in 5 days! now to remotely show the B2 were involved. That must be a record for any trial in any country. They have 8 days to present their case and 5 have gone with nothing...zilch! Incredible and very very sad. It seems I'm repeating myself but it's just mind blowing.

You maybe keep saying it but I maybe said it straight-out before you did and there were a lot of folks who did not agree at the time and said that the Prosecution and their supporters (meaning you-know-who) would be able to pull it off anyway.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804973-capital-punishment-concerns-raised-over-thai-backpackers-murder-case/page-27#entry9216377

What you meant, JLC, was the exact opposite of what you posted, i.e. would anyone on here believe there would be a 62 line of witnesses ready to perjure themselves.

However, the last point that the prosecution wouldn't be able to pull it off, is certainly the way it's going - and that's with no witnesses deliberately perjuring themselves.

[rbmcn]

If a foreigner is in Thailand he is subject to Thai justice. It is what it is. Whether a Burmese laborer, tourist, businessman or other. If one has money, that can make things go away or at least be minimized. If no money at hand to " inject" into strategic levels of the system, you are screwed, guilty or not. I have been involved in the criminal justice systems of three countries for 30 years- none are perfect, all are riddled with corruption and incompetence. ALL!! The British system is rotten from the beat Bobby upwards. In fact, there are no more Bobby's- just clots in cars.

[HUH]

One hundred sixty pages of people running around like headless chicken screaming "No DNA! Cover-up! Cover-Up!"

Then it turns out they were wrong and what do they do? Jump to the next set of speculation and conjecture.

Some people never learn.

What was it you said about listening to early reports...........watch this space

[boomerangutang]

I thought RTP would at least do a somewhat crafty job of cover-up and shielding the H's people, but they're falling all over themselves. 'Didn't look at CCTV of the beach/dock that morning, because decided it wasn't important.' That could be the most incriminating item thus far (indicating RTP's mishandling of the case) .....among a long list of screw-ups.

What's next? RTP and prosecution saying it won't be possible to obtain DNA from Nomsod, Mon, and their tough-guy buddies, because their DNA is 'all-used up' Nothing would surprise me.

According to this current schedule, the earliest scheduled ferry off Koh Tao is 9:30 AM

http://www.kohtaoonline.com/timetable.htm

Who's talking about a 'scheduled ferry' ?! Here's the scenario: Several young men have just finished brutally murdering two people. One perp in particular (maybe more of 'em) are extremely desperate to flee from the scene of the crime. They're from the island. They know every fast boat operator, or at the very least, know how to quickly get a fast boat. They've got lots of money, so payment is not an issue. ....etc etc etc.

[JLCrab]

< snip >

Wow..and so it goes on. 'The Perfect Case'. There has not been one day that the incompetence has not been to the fore. I keep saying it. The best defense is the prosecution. There hasn't been one! And I repeat one credible piece of evidence in 5 days! now to remotely show the B2 were involved. That must be a record for any trial in any country. They have 8 days to present their case and 5 have gone with nothing...zilch! Incredible and very very sad. It seems I'm repeating myself but it's just mind blowing.

You maybe keep saying it but I maybe said it straight-out before you did and there were a lot of folks who did not agree at the time and said that the Prosecution and their supporters (meaning you-know-who) would be able to pull it off anyway.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804973-capital-punishment-concerns-raised-over-thai-backpackers-murder-case/page-27#entry9216377

What you meant, JLC, was the exact opposite of what you posted, i.e. would anyone on here believe there would be a 62 line of witnesses ready to perjure themselves.

However, the last point that the prosecution wouldn't be able to pull it off, is certainly the way it's going - and that's with no witnesses deliberately perjuring themselves.

No I meant exactly what I said as at the time last March I posted that, there were persons on here claiming that if the H-guy and the Prosecutor wanted their underlings to swear to something that did not exist, they would swear to something that did not exist because that's what their boss told them to swear and they would never consider doing otherwise.

[HUH]

Interesting previous post on TV made on the 18th Sept

The bar the victims were at (AC) is EXTREMELY dodgy past 1am. Some dangerous folk frequent there

[boomerangutang]

One hundred sixty pages of people running around like headless chicken screaming "No DNA! Cover-up! Cover-Up!"

Then it turns out they were wrong and what do they do? Jump to the next set of speculation and conjecture.

Some people never learn.

"Some people never learn" ....what? pray tell. We never learn to keep our mouths shut when an obvious cover-up is unraveling?

Most of the posters on here grew up in faranglands, where people are encouraged to speak up when they see a blatant wrongdoing. If I had grown up in Thailand, I'd probably be comfortable with keeping my head in the sand, not questioning authority, and not thinking outside-the-box.

[sammygood]

is anyone really surprised to read this "news"

[JLCrab]

I thought RTP would at least do a somewhat crafty job of cover-up and shielding the H's people, but they're falling all over themselves. 'Didn't look at CCTV of the beach/dock that morning, because decided it wasn't important.' That could be the most incriminating item thus far (indicating RTP's mishandling of the case) .....among a long list of screw-ups.

What's next? RTP and prosecution saying it won't be possible to obtain DNA from Nomsod, Mon, and their tough-guy buddies, because their DNA is 'all-used up' Nothing would surprise me.

According to this current schedule, the earliest scheduled ferry off Koh Tao is 9:30 AM

http://www.kohtaoonline.com/timetable.htm

Who's talking about a 'scheduled ferry' ?! Here's the scenario: Several young men have just finished brutally murdering two people. One perp in particular (maybe more of 'em) are extremely desperate to flee from the scene of the crime. They're from the island. They know every fast boat operator, or at the very least, know how to quickly get a fast boat. They've got lots of money, so payment is not an issue. ....etc etc etc.

... And go straight to the main pier where --

And when you smile for the camera

I know they're gonna love it

(Courtesy 'Peg' -- Steely Dan)

[PaPiPuPePo]

The court was told officers had inspected it with a magnifying glass but deemed there were no viable fingerprints on it, and no DNA evidence to collect.

http://news.sky.com/story/1523975/police-never-checked-cctv-after-britons-killed

H12.jpg

Get the <deleted>*k, I cant believe this is happening. I have to admit as soon as I read that I laughed out loud until I remembered the victims families and the B2. This is outrageous incompetence and neglect of duty. It really cant get worse can it? Yes it probably can and will.

As if you find fingerprints with a magnifying glass! Even on KT with its rinky-dink police station they could go down to "7" and get some superglue and a lighter.

By now these various cock-ups should be enough to declare a mis-trial or acquit. Almost no CCTV evidence, the cops "believe" no one could have left on the boats that went unmonitored, this business with the fingerprints, and so on and on.

[SamuiLoner]

The court in Koh Samui heard that the senior investigating police chief and his officers did not believe the killer would have taken that boat, which left an hour or so after the estimated time of death of the pair.

"We have the footage, but we never checked it," Police Colonel Cherdpong said.

Interesting that the officer was quoted as saying "the killer" (Singular) and "did not believe the killer would have taken that boat". Does this boil down to, he knows the killer took another boat.? Or is this just another piece of reporting lost in translation.?

[boomerangutang]

I can't wait until the evidence that is held by the British Police, comes to the fore....

You may be waiting a long time, my dear. There are several similarities with this case and the murder of Kirsty Jones in Chiang Mai, several years ago. In that case, there were two Thai suspects (one is a cop), both let off due to Thai police incompetence and/or blatant cover-up (take your choice). A hill triber (poor, bottom of social ladder, unempowered) was nabbed by cops - as a scapegoat. Luckily, he got a good lawyer and was let off.

The British connection: Kirsty's mother, years later and mega-frustrated at the investigation going nowhere, went and asked British authorities why they would not release forensic evidence they had. She was told, by the Brit authorities, it was because of diplomatic reasons. Translated: British had evidence which would likely find the murderer, but are purposefully withholding it because they don't want any Thai police brass to lose face.

[eeworldwide]

I can't wait until the evidence that is held by the British Police, comes to the fore....

You may be waiting a long time, my dear. There are several similarities with this case and the murder of Kirsty Jones in Chiang Mai, several years ago. In that case, there were two Thai suspects (one is a cop), both let off due to Thai police incompetence and/or blatant cover-up (take your choice). A hill triber (poor, bottom of social ladder, unempowered) was nabbed by cops - as a scapegoat. Luckily, he got a good lawyer and was let off.

The British connection: Kirsty's mother, years later and mega-frustrated at the investigation going nowhere, went and asked British authorities why they would not release forensic evidence they had. She was told, by the Brit authorities, it was because of diplomatic reasons. Translated: British had evidence which would likely find the murderer, but are purposefully withholding it because they don't want any Thai police brass to lose face.

That's as well may be, but the British contingent have already stated they have evidence and will bring it into play in due course. Let's hope that they do have the clearance to do so!

[Khun Paul]

Nothing about this case surprises me from the obviously gross incompetence of the police investigation to the outlandish and often completely incomprehensible speculation of some posters.

The families of the deceased are having a hard enough time coming to terms not only with the passing of their loved ones but also having to relive their last moments in the spotlight of what appears to be a biased prosecution who having been told the offenders have done it now seek to incarcerate them with minuscule evidence garnered by incompetent officers, who I fear have other axes to grind or debts to pay off. .

The fact that the Worlds press is kept at arms length speaks volumes about the veracity of the prosecutions case and the worries that possibly these two offenders might not have done it. If this is being viewed as a test of Thailands justice system , then it has failed at the first hurdle, from the initial scene to today the actions of the so-called Investigating officers show the world that in fact thje Royal Thai Police are incompetent and the only way they get convictions is by parading the offenders and getting confessions ( the question has always been how) . Actual investigative skills are at best minimal and often non-existent , this is played out not only here in this case but generally seen across the country on a daily basis.

[Khun Paul]

Nothing about this case surprises me from the obviously gross incompetence of the police investigation to the outlandish and often completely incomprehensible speculation of some posters.

The families of the deceased are having a hard enough time coming to terms not only with the passing of their loved ones but also having to relive their last moments in the spotlight of what appears to be a biased prosecution who having been told the offenders have done it now seek to incarcerate them with minuscule evidence garnered by incompetent officers, who I fear have other axes to grind or debts to pay off. .

The fact that the Worlds press is kept at arms length speaks volumes about the veracity of the prosecutions case and the worries that possibly these two offenders might not have done it. If this is being viewed as a test of Thailands justice system , then it has failed at the first hurdle, from the initial scene to today the actions of the so-called Investigating officers show the world that in fact thje Royal Thai Police are incompetent and the only way they get convictions is by parading the offenders and getting confessions ( the question has always been how) . Actual investigative skills are at best minimal and often non-existent , this is played out not only here in this case but generally seen across the country on a daily basis.

[Khun Paul]

Nothing about this case surprises me from the obviously gross incompetence of the police investigation to the outlandish and often completely incomprehensible speculation of some posters.

The families of the deceased are having a hard enough time coming to terms not only with the passing of their loved ones but also having to relive their last moments in the spotlight of what appears to be a biased prosecution who having been told the offenders have done it now seek to incarcerate them with minuscule evidence garnered by incompetent officers, who I fear have other axes to grind or debts to pay off. .

The fact that the Worlds press is kept at arms length speaks volumes about the veracity of the prosecutions case and the worries that possibly these two offenders might not have done it. If this is being viewed as a test of Thailands justice system , then it has failed at the first hurdle, from the initial scene to today the actions of the so-called Investigating officers show the world that in fact thje Royal Thai Police are incompetent and the only way they get convictions is by parading the offenders and getting confessions ( the question has always been how) . Actual investigative skills are at best minimal and often non-existent , this is played out not only here in this case but generally seen across the country on a daily basis.

[smedly]

If I am honest I don't think NS (Headman's son, Nomsod) has anything to do with these disgusting crimes, maybe people connected to him did, its hard to argue some things dont point to that. I think if NS was complicit something undeniable would have surfaced.

Here are two (of many) things undeniable, which implicate Nomsod. One is specific, one is general:

>>> Running Man videos. The man shown is him.

>>> The fact that RTP and prosecution and, of course, the Headman's family and even the self-appointed PM are all trying desperately to deflect, hide, trash, discount any evidence which might point to him.

There may be other incriminating evidence, such as matching DNA (unless we're to take the word of chief cop Somyotha ha ha). .....but prosecution/RTP is saying DNA evidence doesn't exist, oh yes it does, oh no it's used up, Oh no it's not used up, some things have been lost, oh no nothing's been lost - meanwhile days/weeks/months go by, with no reliable reexamination of DNA. Note: even if DNA is allowed, Nomsod's won't be allowed (by the court) to be tested/compared to DNA found in/on Hannah. Mark my words.

It should be because the prosecution has introduced it to this trial - a huge error on their part

If this was a court in the west - that evidence introduced by the prosecution would now be open to scrutiny and retesting to confirm the testimony, if I was defence council I would be asking for samples

[HUH]

I can't wait until the evidence that is held by the British Police, comes to the fore....

You may be waiting a long time, my dear. There are several similarities with this case and the murder of Kirsty Jones in Chiang Mai, several years ago. In that case, there were two Thai suspects (one is a cop), both let off due to Thai police incompetence and/or blatant cover-up (take your choice). A hill triber (poor, bottom of social ladder, unempowered) was nabbed by cops - as a scapegoat. Luckily, he got a good lawyer and was let off.

The British connection: Kirsty's mother, years later and mega-frustrated at the investigation going nowhere, went and asked British authorities why they would not release forensic evidence they had. She was told, by the Brit authorities, it was because of diplomatic reasons. Translated: British had evidence which would likely find the murderer, but are purposefully withholding it because they don't want any Thai police brass to lose face.

That's as well may be, but the British contingent have already stated they have evidence and will bring it into play in due course. Let's hope that they do have the clearance to do so!

Yes its actually the defense team that have said they have "very significant new evidence from the UK that will discredit the prosecution case" But we do not know what UK authority this came from and a report from Andy Hall said they are in a strict confidentiality agreement to not disclose publicly until they present it to the court.

[smedly]

According to testimony presented at the trial, both Hannah and David were last seen alive entering AC Bar. The police were aware of statements that a fight had occurred in AC Bar that night, but no attempt was made to find out what happened in AC Bar. In footage before they entered the bar, there was no indication Hannah and David were being followed by suspicious characters. It was concluded that this was not a premeditated crime. It is assumed (no CCTV footage to confirm this) that Hannah and David left the bar through the back door onto the beach. My interpretation of their attitude: What happened in a bar, how Hannah and David left, and whether they were followed, is irrelevant. The Burmese we want to be guilty were not there.

so lets be absolutely clear about this

The very last cctv footage of Hannah and David that night was both of them going into AC bar (at different times) split by approx 1 hour - but were never seen leaving again,

and

AC bar refused to release cctv footage from inside the bar that night

and

The back of AC bar leads onto the beach (never been there)

and

cctv footage of B1 B2 B3 on a motorbike with guitar heading to their favourite spot on the beach (the log) at around 1:30am after going to store for cigs and beer (approx. time)

B1 B2 B3 on the beach that night on the log playing guitar (which they often did)

(conjecture) the big black hole.............

The accused B1 B2 leave the beach at approx 3am and were snuggled up in their beds by around 4am -

• should be cctv of b3 leaving and getting an extra beer at the store (as claimed) before going to see his girlfriend
• should be cctv of B1 B2 leaving the beach and going to bed
• should be cctv of B3 returning at around 5am and finding B1 and B2 sleeping as claimed
• suspected altercation in AC bar (not confirmed) possibly some time between 2am and 3am, possible assault on David or Hannah in the bar -

Hannah and David leave the bar together through the back door onto the beach and are followed......

fill in the blanks

.................................

next we see video footage released by the original police investigator (who was promptly removed) showing running man video, police later claim in court that it is B1 or B2 but apart from the lack of wrist bands (which they were both wearing) looks nothing like either of them, tall skinny man with strange walk and pointed nose

police looking for Mon and Nomsod as prime suspects

police removed from case..............the rest is pure fiction

The policeman gave evidence that following his review of hundreds of hours of CCTV he is absolutely positive that Hannah and David were not followed. Yet he didn't show footage of them leaving the AC Bar, either through front or back exit, even though he must have seen it during the hundreds of hours he diligently spent reviewing footage. What kind of testimony is that? If they were followed prior to being assaulted, this is most likely to have occurred when the left the AC Bar until they met their deaths but none of this footage has been presented as evidence.

exactly - it's all fiction

[stephenterry]

What you meant, JLC, was the exact opposite of what you posted, i.e. would anyone on here believe there would be a 62 line of witnesses ready to perjure themselves.

However, the last point that the prosecution wouldn't be able to pull it off, is certainly the way it's going - and that's with no witnesses deliberately perjuring themselves.

No I meant exactly what I said as at the time last March I posted that, there were persons on here claiming that if the H-guy and the Prosecutor wanted their underlings to swear to something that did not exist, they would swear to something that did not exist because that's what their boss told them to swear and they would never consider doing otherwise.

Generally speaking, Thai behaviour (low to middle classes) is exactly that. Never complain (something that makes my blood boil) , obey your boss, and keep your head in the sand. But you probably haven't lived here for any length of time, if at all, - so your naivety is forgivable.

What is refreshing, in this trial is that a FEMALE forensic specialist spoke her mind - she didn't kow-tow to her bosses. On that note, I think one female defence witness would receive more attention and respect, than 62 male prosecution witnesses combined. It only takes one to open the flood-gates.

[smedly]

There seem to be a few people absent from this forum today - is it any wonder lol

[amerasianex]

The Island of Hawaii has a huge tourism industry. In the last ten years exactly zero visitors to that island have been raped robbed or murdered. Why would any visitor come to Thailand when they get rapped robbed and murdered here daily? Thailand has a huge problem as it is. The whole world is watching them and this case. If justice is not served. It will be just one more nail in the coffin of Thai people. Ive said this for many years now and now the tourism industry is dead and will be for many many years. Unless you want to count Chinese.The whole world is connected and Thailand is on trial. Not only two poor Burmese boys......

[glenmohr]

The farce continues. Thailand continues to insult the victims and their families. The "Good" General willing to restore happiness and fight corruption does absolutely nothing to stop this farce.

Too true Toonsai, there is one person who could bring this farce to an end with a flick of his finger and he does not, I wonder why?

[glenmohr]

The farce continues. Thailand continues to insult the victims and their families. The "Good" General willing to restore happiness and fight corruption does absolutely nothing to stop this farce.

Too true Toonsai, there is one person who could bring this farce to an end with a flick of his finger and he does not, I wonder why?

[Fat Haggis]

There seem to be a few people absent from this forum today - is it any wonder lol

, you beat me to it...

Perhaps they are in court as witnesses for the prosecution..Just a thought...

Or maybe they're too busy being cross examined!!

From day 1 this has been a farce, not a single Piece of real detective work was done, run of the mill "beat coppers" trampled all over the crime scene, the local coppers best of buddies with the family and the list can go on.

The initial investigation seemed to be going in the direction we all believed it should have gone, till the top dog was replaced. From that point on, it's gone down hill faster than Vannesa Mae!!

[Dogmatix]

For those who say that the police didn't release toxicology reports for reasons of delicacy, this is clearly not the whole truth. But perhaps lack of linguistic ability might have inhibited you from being sufficiently thorough in reviewing information that is readily available in Thai before posting with an air of great authority here. Pages from the summary of the report were leaked to Thai media at the time and widely circulated on social media. For both of the deceased the summary clearly states that no narcotic or psychotropic substances were found in the blood or urine and that no traces of poisoning from food were found in the stomach. However, there is no reference to alcohol. The rest of the summary is totally consistent with what police are recorded on tube about the DNA traces found. So there is no reason to suspect that the summary was a forgery.

[smedly]

Nothing about this case surprises me from the obviously gross incompetence of the police investigation to the outlandish and often completely incomprehensible speculation of some posters.

The families of the deceased are having a hard enough time coming to terms not only with the passing of their loved ones but also having to relive their last moments in the spotlight of what appears to be a biased prosecution who having been told the offenders have done it now seek to incarcerate them with minuscule evidence garnered by incompetent officers, who I fear have other axes to grind or debts to pay off. .

The fact that the Worlds press is kept at arms length speaks volumes about the veracity of the prosecutions case and the worries that possibly these two offenders might not have done it. If this is being viewed as a test of Thailands justice system , then it has failed at the first hurdle, from the initial scene to today the actions of the so-called Investigating officers show the world that in fact thje Royal Thai Police are incompetent and the only way they get convictions is by parading the offenders and getting confessions ( the question has always been how) . Actual investigative skills are at best minimal and often non-existent , this is played out not only here in this case but generally seen across the country on a daily basis.

the outlandish and often completely incomprehensible speculation of some posters.

your post starts like this - then you proceed to do almost the same thing

but apart from that I agree with you as do many people here

[jackanapes]

everything the police should have done I/e checked cctv footage from the pier checked out the boatman seen leaving the island after the murder they neglected to do was it blunder upon blunder or rtps plan to fit up these two boys on evidence to fit the crime ?.

[Dogmatix]

Here is the page of the summary of the autopsy report that states the findings of the toxology and DNA traces found. I apologise that it is Thai but no English version is available and I think it is highly relevant to the dscussion. The sections referring to the toxology report are 413, 413.1, 413.2 and 424, 424.1, 424.2. For both of the deceased the summary clearly states that no narcotic or psychotropic substances were found in the blood or urine and that no traces of poisoning from food were found in the stomach. However, there is no reference to alcohol.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Dogmatix