Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[GOLDBUGGY]

Statement: Defence Lawyers Team, Koh Tao Case

KOH SAMUI:-- A team of defence lawyers assumed responsibility for this case in the name of the Lawyers Council of Thailand as this appeared to be a situation where the accused had been tortured to confess to the crimes they are accused of.

The accused in this case are migrant workers but all their basic human rights for access to justice as the accused and defendants in a criminal case should be respected.

The Lawyers Council of Thailand expects justice to be achieved for all parties to this case and is working to ensure the truth is revealed. The Lawyers Council of Thailand is confident that the mechanisms of the justice system including prosecution officials, defence lawyers and the court itself will be able to ensure that the United Kingdom, Myanmar and other countries across the world consider and accept the Thai justice system as adhering to standards of international justice.

The Lawyers Council of Thailand hopes that both domestic and international media will cooperate in reporting the truth in this case in a correct manner, in a way that respects the deceased and their families and in such a way as to ensure justice for all parties to the case in accordance with everyone’s expectations. I would like to thank the media in advance for your cooperation.

Mr. Nakhon Chomphuchat

Koh Samui

8th July 2015

"The Lawyers Council of Thailand hopes that both domestic and international media will cooperate in reporting the truth in this case in a correct manner, in a way that respects the deceased and their families and in such a way as to ensure justice for all parties to the case in accordance with everyone’s expectations. I would like to thank the media in advance for your cooperation."

That's very rich of them to say when the defense team, and their proxies, have been busy for months disseminating and encouraging all sort of speculation and rumor mongering to hold the trial "on the court of public opinion" directly in opposition with the stated wishes from the victim's families.

That's very rich of you to say when the "defense team and their proxies" have had no option as they have been denied access to any evidence!

Doesn't it seem odd to you that if the Defense Team has been denied evidence in this case, as you claim anyway, but yet now this same Defense Team are claiming that there is a discrepancy between the DNA collected in the UK, and the DNA collect in Thailand?

Sure seems odd to me as if what you said was true, then I wonder how they knew that and got that information.

[sgtsabai]

What chain of custody? There is none.

[Thaidream]

If I had to make a guess based upon what I have read- they will be convicted in the initial court and then set free after the appeal.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Great to see that the people are starting to see what some what some posters are really like and ignoring them is the best medicine for them .

Yes, I could have responded, but what's the mileage in having a meaningless debate argument. Now the Brits are helping the defence, and if independent testing of DNA is permitted, I'm hopeful the prosecution's case will founder on the rocks of truthful disclosure.

Yes! I agree that an argument is not called for here, but also people are entitled to their own opinion, and this should be respected also.

But since people like Theory so much here, let me throw one out of my own for a change.

Let's say that the Defense is granted Credible Independent Testing of the DNA for the 2 accused. Which personally I hope they are allowed to do. But lets also say it doesn't turn out to be what the Defense Team expected. After all, the only ones who really know if they are guilty or innocent are the 2 accused. So instead of the DNA Testing Negative, it comes back Positive, and there DNA Matches the DNA found inside of Hannah.

Now I am not saying for sure this would happen, or even suggesting this, but my Theory is that if it ever did unfold this way, which it should if they were guilty, then the Defense Team's Ship is Sunk! There is no turning back from their.

As it stands now, and without Independent Testing, to some it may raise doubt in their minds as to the DNA Testing they have. Like you for instance. But through Independent Testing, they leave no doubt at all. So I hope they are granted Independent Testing, but also in this case I would be careful for what I ask for, as you might get it.

But I think your missing the point of the implications of this. If the UK has DNA evidence that conflicts with the RTP DNA then thats it! No matter what amount of re testing is done you can never match one set of DNA with another separate DNA.

You also miss the point, its not just a few posters on here questioning the DNA nor is it just the defense team. It is the UK, why is that? Clue could be in my latter sentence.

I understand your point. To me if you have 2 exact DNA Samples, and there is a discrepancy in these samples, then obviously someone made a mistake. In this case I would call for new testing under the watchful eye of a Neutral Party. You can't release everyone from Prison just because somewhere along the line, through millions of DNA testing, based on someone made a mistake somewhere.

But lets talk about these "Discrepancies" with this DNA. What are they? The UK Investigative Team where allowed into Thailand to observe only! They were not allowed to take evidence home, or DNA Samples of the accused. So how can there be a discrepancy in the DNA of the Cigarette Butt, when they don't have the accused DNA to compare?

This news was brought forward be the Defense Team. Like most of the Media we have been reading this past few months. Is it not their job to cause confusion? Because with confusion you also cause doubt. As far as I can see they have done a good job with the media and both of these. So we will see what really unfolds in this trial.

[phuketandsee]

If I had to make a guess based upon what I have read- they will be convicted in the initial court and then set free after the appeal.

Is there a right of appeal in this case?

[zaphod reborn]

Having sat on an American jury- Evidence samples/DNA are logged and a chain of custody established by date, time and person. If that chain is broken- that leads the jury to wonder why and what happened. The chain of custody is an important part of any evidence. Now whether the RTP use this method is unknown to me but if they don't all evidence becomes suspect as no one knows who handled it and why. I wish we could see the actual trial transcripts.

As an American lawyer I can tell you that if the chain of custody is disrupted, usually the evidence never makes it to the jury. The rules of evidence allow the Judge to exclude evidence that lacks a proper foundation. The problem with this case is that police and third parties had the ability to plant evidence at the crime scene. A real investigation would have closed off the scene and documented the location of evidence with photos. I have serious doubts as to whether items of evidence, like cigarette butts with the defendant's DNA traces on them, were actually part of the original crime scene.

[stephenterry]

If I had to make a guess based upon what I have read- they will be convicted in the initial court and then set free after the appeal.

I agree, completely. This trial is a face savings exercise.

[boomerangutang]

Let's say that the Defense is granted Credible Independent Testing of the DNA for the 2 accused. Which personally I hope they are allowed to do. But lets also say it doesn't turn out to be what the Defense Team expected. After all, the only ones who really know if they are guilty or innocent are the 2 accused. So instead of the DNA Testing Negative, it comes back Positive, and there DNA Matches the DNA found inside of Hannah.

Now I am not saying for sure this would happen, or even suggesting this, but my Theory is that if it ever did unfold this way, which it should if they were guilty, then the Defense Team's Ship is Sunk! There is no turning back from their.

As it stands now, and without Independent Testing, to some it may raise doubt in their minds as to the DNA Testing they have. Like you for instance. But through Independent Testing, they leave no doubt at all. So I hope they are granted Independent Testing, but also in this case I would be careful for what I ask for, as you might get it.

The defense wants independent testing. If truly independent and professionally obtained results show a match between the victim and the B2, the defense will accept it. However, as it stands now, the DNA trail has more holes than swiss cheese. Is it telling - how concerted the efforts are by Thai officialdom to do all they can to thwart a re-examination of the DNA? You tell me.

I guess either way the truth will come out. If the court allow the defence independent testing of the DNA the truth will be for all to see. If the court does not allow it, then the truth is also there for all to see.

Your first assumption assumes the legal system will accept that British and/or independent testing of DNA trail trumps RTP testing. Not necessarily. The legal system can pick the findings which best fit with the results they want, but more likely they'll discount ALL DNA and declare the DNA trail is no good. That's what Ms Pornthip will probably propose (she will testify later), but personally, I think independent DNA findings should prevail. Brit tests would be less likely to be subjective agenda-driven than tests commissioned by the RTP, who are in bed with the Headman and his people.

I don't agree with your closing sentence ("the truth is also there for all to see"). It applies only to the majority of observers, reasonable folks like you and me, who aren't fixated on shielding the Headman's people.

[Emster23]

I would imagine the DNA will match. However do we have a trail showing who collected & controlled it, when and where it went (sorry, legal term seems to have slipped my mind). Given porous nature of investigation it would be very simple to plant accused DNA in place of real evidence. We've got the foxes watching the hen house in this case.. (sorry Zaphod, just saw your post so this is redundant on my part)

Edited July 8, 2015 by Emster23

[stephenterry]

I am also quite curious as to what would be the motive of these 2 young men to attack a foreign man and woman, then rape and commit murder.. In the West, a legal team would hire their own detective/investigator to look into the background of the accused, any police records and trace their movements for the whole week . Also, every possible witness or anyone remotely connected with this case would have been interviewed separately from the police and detailed profiles established. It would surprise me if any of this was done.

Exactly.

[GOLDBUGGY]

If the judge rules in favor of another DNA test it would be quite easy for the police to switch the samples and give the lab the real DNA of the two accused instead of the samples taken from the victims. I wouldn't put anything passed the police and the prosecutors. After all, saving face is paramount.

Did you see the crowd of people around Nomsad, when he gave his DNA Sample to the Police, and the crowd of Reporters outside?

Do you really believe that if the court allows another Independent DNA Sampling of the accused that the Defense is just going to accept some bottle a Lab Guy gives them without questioning that?

I am sorry as I am not trying to offend you, but you really must think that all other people are stupid, including the Defensive Team.

[sambum]

Statement: Defence Lawyers Team, Koh Tao Case

KOH SAMUI:-- A team of defence lawyers assumed responsibility for this case in the name of the Lawyers Council of Thailand as this appeared to be a situation where the accused had been tortured to confess to the crimes they are accused of.

The accused in this case are migrant workers but all their basic human rights for access to justice as the accused and defendants in a criminal case should be respected.

The Lawyers Council of Thailand expects justice to be achieved for all parties to this case and is working to ensure the truth is revealed. The Lawyers Council of Thailand is confident that the mechanisms of the justice system including prosecution officials, defence lawyers and the court itself will be able to ensure that the United Kingdom, Myanmar and other countries across the world consider and accept the Thai justice system as adhering to standards of international justice.

The Lawyers Council of Thailand hopes that both domestic and international media will cooperate in reporting the truth in this case in a correct manner, in a way that respects the deceased and their families and in such a way as to ensure justice for all parties to the case in accordance with everyones expectations. I would like to thank the media in advance for your cooperation.

Mr. Nakhon Chomphuchat

Koh Samui

8th July 2015

"The Lawyers Council of Thailand hopes that both domestic and international media will cooperate in reporting the truth in this case in a correct manner, in a way that respects the deceased and their families and in such a way as to ensure justice for all parties to the case in accordance with everyones expectations. I would like to thank the media in advance for your cooperation."

That's very rich of them to say when the defense team, and their proxies, have been busy for months disseminating and encouraging all sort of speculation and rumor mongering to hold the trial "on the court of public opinion" directly in opposition with the stated wishes from the victim's families.

That's very rich of you to say when the "defense team and their proxies" have had no option as they have been denied access to any evidence!

Doesn't it seem odd to you that if the Defense Team has been denied evidence in this case, as you claim anyway, but yet now this same Defense Team are claiming that there is a discrepancy between the DNA collected in the UK, and the DNA collect in Thailand?

Sure seems odd to me as if what you said was true, then I wonder how they knew that and got that information.

As you would probably say, try to keep up! There was supposed to be a decision made today (which was actually made way back in April, but overturned by the court)but apparently now going to be made tomorrow as to whether the defence team can have access to certain evidence?

[Gweiloman]

I understand your point. To me if you have 2 exact DNA Samples, and there is a discrepancy in these samples, then obviously someone made a mistake. In this case I would call for new testing under the watchful eye of a Neutral Party. You can't release everyone from Prison just because somewhere along the line, through millions of DNA testing, based on someone made a mistake somewhere.

But lets talk about these "Discrepancies" with this DNA. What are they? The UK Investigative Team where allowed into Thailand to observe only! They were not allowed to take evidence home, or DNA Samples of the accused. So how can there be a discrepancy in the DNA of the Cigarette Butt, when they don't have the accused DNA to compare?

This news was brought forward be the Defense Team. Like most of the Media we have been reading this past few months. Is it not their job to cause confusion? Because with confusion you also cause doubt. As far as I can see they have done a good job with the media and both of these. So we will see what really unfolds in this trial.

The victims' bodies were sent back to UK before the B2 were arrested. I would imagine that the British would have examined the bodies for foreign DNA.

It is a simple matter for the defense team to collect DNA from the B2 (presumably during one of many visits) and to have their DNA compared against whatever foreign DNA was collected from the victims' bodies.

Thus assuming that foreign DNA was recovered and none of it matched the suspects' DNA, that could be considered a discrepancy.

[Just1Voice]

It was to be expected that the 2 Koh Tao mob apologists and defenders would show up quickly on this thread. Even if these young men were black this case wouldn't have gone to court in the US. If I had ever bungled a crime scene like that I would have been justly fired as would any with me. Just1Voice, as one USMC to another, thanks for setting that ahem person straight.

Simper Fi, Brother.

[sweatalot]

If the judge rules in favor of another DNA test it would be quite easy for the police to switch the samples and give the lab the real DNA of the two accused instead of the samples taken from the victims. I wouldn't put anything passed the police and the prosecutors. After all, saving face is paramount.

Hopefully they will find a way to avoid this an eliminate RTP of the equation,

otherwise they can forget the retesting

[thailandchilli]

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 10m10 minutes ago

3rd witness owner of InTouch. 4th witness cook AC2 bar who found guitar. Proceedings now closing for the day after 4 witnesses complete.

5:42 AM - 8 Jul 2015 · Details

[fxe1200]

It is not the just the two Burmese on trial here but The whole Thai judicial system and the RTP...

Agree and RTP will no doubt be found morally guilty by any foreign viewers and sane persons in the Land of Scapegoats - I wonder who is gonna be the next victim(s) on Death Island ...

The RTP of Koh Tao is already looking for extra spaces to be used as inactive posts.

Edited July 8, 2015 by fxe1200

[PEAP]

A wayward family member "assisting" the RTP did not "crack" until the third treatment of the Plastic Bag over the head did in fact reveal a "confession" and additional information. No bruises, no marks.

In the current case - - - Where is the Hoe that was alleged to be used in the killing? No mention so far.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Statement: Defence Lawyers Team, Koh Tao Case

KOH SAMUI:-- A team of defence lawyers assumed responsibility for this case in the name of the Lawyers Council of Thailand as this appeared to be a situation where the accused had been tortured to confess to the crimes they are accused of.

The accused in this case are migrant workers but all their basic human rights for access to justice as the accused and defendants in a criminal case should be respected.

The Lawyers Council of Thailand expects justice to be achieved for all parties to this case and is working to ensure the truth is revealed. The Lawyers Council of Thailand is confident that the mechanisms of the justice system including prosecution officials, defence lawyers and the court itself will be able to ensure that the United Kingdom, Myanmar and other countries across the world consider and accept the Thai justice system as adhering to standards of international justice.

The Lawyers Council of Thailand hopes that both domestic and international media will cooperate in reporting the truth in this case in a correct manner, in a way that respects the deceased and their families and in such a way as to ensure justice for all parties to the case in accordance with everyone’s expectations. I would like to thank the media in advance for your cooperation.

Mr. Nakhon Chomphuchat

Koh Samui

8th July 2015

OK so wheres the jury?

In Canada, for Criminal Cases, you don't have to have a Jury. You can select to have your case heard by a Judge only, which many accused do. Since our system is based on British Law, it is probably the same there to.

[sweatalot]

Sambum makes a very good point. If the crime scene is not immediately sealed and people come in an trample on the evidence, everything becomes suspect. The chain of custody is broken from the beginning and a decent lawyer will use all of this to point out inconsistencies in the Prosecutor's case.

... and a decent judge will draw the right conclusions

[boomerangutang]

People saying that the world is watching . So Thailand have to show some justice. I'm sorry but Face is much more important in Thailand than justice . I feel very sad for all involved apart from the b*stards who did this of course. I have a feeling this is going to be the opposite to the OJ Simpson trail where in this case there going to make the glove fit

I agree, 'face' is more important than justice, but there are two concepts that are more important than face or justice, in this case:

>>> maintaining chummy diplomatic relations between Thailand and the UK. If UK forensic findings contradict RTP's then Thai top brass - all the way up to the PM are besmirched. Upon reflection, that's face also, but could affect financial interactions between UK and Thailand. Already, Thailand is leaning increasingly, week by week, toward being chummy with China - and thereby less chummy with those pesky Europeans and Americans, who can't fully accept a self-appointed junta.

>>> shielding the headman's brother and son from legal entanglements.

Note: in the unsolved Kirsty Jones murder/rape of 2000, Kirsty's mother came out publicly and chastized the British FCO for withholding crucial forensic data (which would likely implicate a Thai policeman and/or a Thai g.h. owner). The FCO's reason, "Britain doesn't want to jeopardize diplomatic relations with Thailand."

[GOLDBUGGY]

I am also quite curious as to what would be the motive of these 2 young men to attack a foreign man and woman, then rape and commit murder.. In the West, a legal team would hire their own detective/investigator to look into the background of the accused, any police records and trace their movements for the whole week . Also, every possible witness or anyone remotely connected with this case would have been interviewed separately from the police and detailed profiles established. It would surprise me if any of this was done.

Is not Rape Motive enough?

The Motive for Murder in this case would be to cover up their crime, and thus leave no eye witnesses. They are also charged with Robbery, which is self explanatory, and Immigration Violations.

I tend to agree that it does seem a bit odd that to commit a crime like this you would think they would have committed some violent crime somewhere else. But this would not be the first time it happened. Every Serial Killer started first somewhere!

But instead of tracing there movement on the island for the past week, I would try to trace them from the day they arrived there. Who knows what they could find from other DNA they may have collected from other crimes?

[cookee68]

Mr Nakhon if you expect justice to be done i would expect all parties to be able to scrutinise evidence and ask serious questions of the investigative process.

I feel dreadfully sorry for the boys on trial. I just can't see how they did it when all viable evidence points elsewhere. They've suffered enough so hope they are acquitted sooner rather than later

Explain how all viable evidence points elsewhere?

We have suspects and we will be presented with evidence in court. If they are not good enough the "boys" will be set free,

So very true, and if they are good enough then they will be deemed guilty and go to jail, that's how things work

[GOLDBUGGY]

Having sat on an American jury- Evidence samples/DNA are logged and a chain of custody established by date, time and person. If that chain is broken- that leads the jury to wonder why and what happened. The chain of custody is an important part of any evidence. Now whether the RTP use this method is unknown to me but if they don't all evidence becomes suspect as no one knows who handled it and why. I wish we could see the actual trial transcripts.

This is exactly what I have been trying to say here for a very long time. That, and also that tampering with evidence is a serious Criminal Offense which carries the lost of your Job and Career, and a Mandatory Jail Sentence.

But they still think that doing this is equal to stealing a Chocolate Bar from a Candy Shop, and they stick DNA Samples in an empty Beer Bottle, so forget about it. You will just get Bashed for saying this.

[GOLDBUGGY]

I wonder why the UK did not make the reports from the UK coppers that went over. The UK government keeping Thai authorities happy by saying nothing. The court case should be held a long way away.

Will be a white wash I am thinking.

I would guess that this was part of the agreement for the UK Investigative Team to be allowed in Thailand to observe. You wouldn't want the shoe on the other foot and have a Thai Investigative Team be allowed into the UK to observe and ongoing case, then come home and spill the beans to the Media, would you?

In Canada, the Police will only mention the accused name, and what he is charged with, and what crime he is accused of committing. They never discuss evidence they have or details although they may say they feel they have a strong case against him. I think this is standard protocol. But in this case it seems they were allowed by there Superiors, to discuss this case with the Victims Families.

And in Thailand, this is the type of statement that the Deputy Chief Spokesman for the Royal Thai Police makes:- "I think we did a pretty good job of sealing the crime scene, although we have a limited number of officers on Koh Tao and so local volunteers helped".

I believe the topic we were on was to discuss why the UK Police did not disclose to the public what they found.

You are obviously on a different topic altogether.

[Sooo Upto Me]

If I had to make a guess based upon what I have read- they will be convicted in the initial court and then set free after the appeal.

I agree, completely. This trial is a face savings exercise.

Totally agree.

[sammygood]

so the circus has begun

act 1, scene 1

should the case be thrown out ?

first "confessions" were translations of the local banana pancake seller, right ?

no lawyer present

Edited July 8, 2015 by sammygood

[Sooo Upto Me]

I wonder why the UK did not make the reports from the UK coppers that went over. The UK government keeping Thai authorities happy by saying nothing. The court case should be held a long way away.

Will be a white wash I am thinking.

I would guess that this was part of the agreement for the UK Investigative Team to be allowed in Thailand to observe. You wouldn't want the shoe on the other foot and have a Thai Investigative Team be allowed into the UK to observe and ongoing case, then come home and spill the beans to the Media, would you?

In Canada, the Police will only mention the accused name, and what he is charged with, and what crime he is accused of committing. They never discuss evidence they have or details although they may say they feel they have a strong case against him. I think this is standard protocol. But in this case it seems they were allowed by there Superiors, to discuss this case with the Victims Families.

And in Thailand, this is the type of statement that the Deputy Chief Spokesman for the Royal Thai Police makes:- "I

think we did a pretty good job of sealing the crime scene, although we have a limited number of officers on Koh Tao and so local volunteers helped".

I believe the topic we were on was to discuss why the UK Police did not disclose to the public what they found.

You are obviously on a different topic altogether.

Here we go again, Goldbugger is on the warpath.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Having sat on an American jury- Evidence samples/DNA are logged and a chain of custody established by date, time and person. If that chain is broken- that leads the jury to wonder why and what happened. The chain of custody is an important part of any evidence. Now whether the RTP use this method is unknown to me but if they don't all evidence becomes suspect as no one knows who handled it and why. I wish we could see the actual trial transcripts.

As an American lawyer I can tell you that if the chain of custody is disrupted, usually the evidence never makes it to the jury. The rules of evidence allow the Judge to exclude evidence that lacks a proper foundation. The problem with this case is that police and third parties had the ability to plant evidence at the crime scene. A real investigation would have closed off the scene and documented the location of evidence with photos. I have serious doubts as to whether items of evidence, like cigarette butts with the defendant's DNA traces on them, were actually part of the original crime scene.

If the Police were the ones who could have planted evidence, then what is the point of putting a ribbon up? Who is stopping the photographer from doing the same? Or the Investigators? Or the Lab Guy? It is only because you put a lot of faith in these people in the States, that you have any evidence at all.

On this site, hardly nobody has such faith here, including you.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Let's say that the Defense is granted Credible Independent Testing of the DNA for the 2 accused. Which personally I hope they are allowed to do. But lets also say it doesn't turn out to be what the Defense Team expected. After all, the only ones who really know if they are guilty or innocent are the 2 accused. So instead of the DNA Testing Negative, it comes back Positive, and there DNA Matches the DNA found inside of Hannah.

Now I am not saying for sure this would happen, or even suggesting this, but my Theory is that if it ever did unfold this way, which it should if they were guilty, then the Defense Team's Ship is Sunk! There is no turning back from their.

As it stands now, and without Independent Testing, to some it may raise doubt in their minds as to the DNA Testing they have. Like you for instance. But through Independent Testing, they leave no doubt at all. So I hope they are granted Independent Testing, but also in this case I would be careful for what I ask for, as you might get it.

The defense wants independent testing. If truly independent and professionally obtained results show a match between the victim and the B2, the defense will accept it. However, as it stands now, the DNA trail has more holes than swiss cheese. Is it telling - how concerted the efforts are by Thai officialdom to do all they can to thwart a re-examination of the DNA? You tell me.

I guess either way the truth will come out. If the court allow the defence independent testing of the DNA the truth will be for all to see. If the court does not allow it, then the truth is also there for all to see.

Your first assumption assumes the legal system will accept that British and/or independent testing of DNA trail trumps RTP testing. Not necessarily. The legal system can pick the findings which best fit with the results they want, but more likely they'll discount ALL DNA and declare the DNA trail is no good. That's what Ms Pornthip will probably propose (she will testify later), but personally, I think independent DNA findings should prevail. Brit tests would be less likely to be subjective agenda-driven than tests commissioned by the RTP, who are in bed with the Headman and his people.

I don't agree with your closing sentence ("the truth is also there for all to see"). It applies only to the majority of observers, reasonable folks like you and me, who aren't fixated on shielding the Headman's people.

My quote "the truth is also there for all to see" was in reference to your Independent DNA Test, and if the accused where also found to match the DNA Sample from Hannah, or not.

But from your post I see it is you who is fixated on accusing the Head Man and his Family no matter what truth they find or come out.

Fine stick to that Theory. Good Luck in your query. Keep in Mind there is a One Million Baht Reward if you can prove any of this. So now you have a motive at least.