Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[fred Kubasa]

Everyone misunderstands Thailand who, ultimately, know everything !

[Rimmer]

Troll post and replies removed

[flyingdoc]

ttthailand echoes what I have been saying all along !

[cookee68]

I have not seen any discussion of the testimony of Dr. Chasit Yoohad as reported in http://bigstory.ap.org/urn:publicid:ap.org:eab0f9d26be242048e4dae7a83a9334e.

A second witness, Dr. Chasit Yoohad, gave testimony about his examination of the victims' bodies. He said he also performed a medical checkup of the two accused, and found them in good health. He said he asked through a translator if they had committed the crime, and they replied that they had.

This strikes me as strange. Why would the doctor be interrogating the Burmese? Of course, if the doctor was part of a frame up, the testimony is extremely convenient. It also does not state when this examination of the Burmese took place. I assume the translator was the pancake seller who has been accused of participating in the torture of the two accused. Even if the doctor's interrogation was carried out fairly, the two Burmese kids would probably not have dared risk renewed torture by claiming innocence. Further, how does anyone know that questions and answers from the pancake seller were correct translations?

Will the "translator" give evidence at the trial? Should this claim of the Burmese admission of guilt be regarded as hearsay if he does not?

Or will the translator need a translator

[cookee68]

Is Thai murder trial set to collapse?

KOH SAMUI: -- Families of British backpackers fly home as defence lawyers call for suspects to be acquitted over claims of missing evidence and crime-scene blunders

The families of murdered British backpackers Hannah Witheridge and David Miller flew home from Thailand yesterday as the legal team representing the accused claimed the case was on the verge of collapse.

Burmese migrants Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo face a possible death penalty if they are convicted of sexually assaulting and killing Hannah, 23, with a hoe, and clubbing David, 24, unconscious before leaving him to drown on a beach on Kao Tao island last September.

Hannah’s father and brother, and David’s parents and brother last week flew to neighbouring Kao Samui for the three-day opening of the trial, where they were visibly shocked as photographs of the bodies were casually handed around the court.

The case – marred by claims of missing evidence and crime-scene blunders – was adjourned yesterday until July 22 while the defendants’ lawyers prepare to call for their acquittal.

‘We hope by the end of the prosecution case, we will have destroyed it and we will show that it is completely lacking in credibility,’ said Andy Hall, a British migrant rights activist working with defence lawyers.

Mr Hall said the defence held ‘incredibly significant information from an independent authority’ with which it would discredit the prosecution case when the trial reopens. He declined to give more details but the information is believed to relate to DNA samples obtained from Hannah’s body after it was returned to the UK.

Kao Tao’s migrant workers were subjected to mass DNA testing before Zaw and Wai, both 22, were arrested amid global media attention and intense pressure on police to find the killers.

The pair confessed to the murders but later withdrew their statements, claiming police had tortured them. Police insist they have DNA evidence linking them to the murders but said key samples could not be independently tested because they had been ‘used up’ by forensics teams. They also admitted the crime scene had been contaminated, and that the hoe was removed before it was forensically examined.

Police have been accused of making scapegoats of migrants amid claims that the real killers were Thai men linked to powerful families who are said to run Kao Tao.

David’s father said on Friday the families were ‘keeping an open mind’. The trial is due to last until September, with a verdict expected in October.

--Mail Online: 2015-07-12

Lets not forget this is media talk, and we all know how media talk can sometimes be total bullshit, none of this will make a difference unless it is proved, Thailand don't care about he said she said, when it hurts them

[bunglebag]

I see Sean Mcanna has changed his name. The guilty parties(IMO) The Island mafia were wanting to kill him, I wonder why? He should on the stand.

it wouldn't surprise me if he was involved and when things went too far he separated from his Thai island friends. Feeling guilty he started to tell people little hints about what really happened and that's when they came after him, to shut him up. It was either kill him or let him leave the island and keep his mouth shut, after all he was just as guilty as the other two or three.

Just a guess ....

I was following his facebook that night as it was happening, pretty much a week to the hour after the murders. He was shitting himself and rightly so. Personally I believe that if he hadn't got into that shop and made the facebook post with photo then he may well have died that night and the case would have been much easier to 'close' then.

Just a feeling but I do feel he knows more than he has said, either as a witness or through the grapevine.

His posts that night were:

'Owner of ac bar did it'

and

'Thai mafia are trying to kill me. please help me. Sky news phone me'

Notice that one is present tense and one is past tense. He tried to say later that the 'did it' one was in relation to his own impending death at their hands but why past tense and the other present?

And prior to the hanging threat his room got ransacked over within days of the murder. he implied he knew/could guess who it was. I wonder what they were looking for

Edited July 13, 2015 by bunglebag

[mikiea]

While the matching of DNA samples is important, I suspect that the overriding importance of a likely contamination of the crime scene and problems in the chain of custody of any collected physical evidence will emerge as the major issues.

what you say is true and correct . but understand this , the fix has been purchased already by the local grand poompa . the prosecution will be making up shxt as he goes along and the police nodding in agreement with anything he says . what is needed here is a chronological list of police claims and statements made put to music . now that would be at least interesting , now not so much . stank by any other name is stank and this trial wafts of stankieness.

[Bangkok Barry]

At the end of the day, don't the police have to prove their case beyond all reasonable doubt? Which, obviously, is impossible. How has it even gone to trial? Of course, I am assuming that fairness exists in the Thai judicial system, which might not be the case and someone can be convicted even if questions remain unanswered.

[DennisF]

Blood on guitar, marks that look strikingly similar to those on David, a supposed motorcycle accident days before,

Sean McCoward certainly has questions to answer.

Truthfully would be nice although, I suspect, a bit of a stretch for him.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

The police probably know as many of us knew that they had the wrong people and that the lack of creditable evidence would free the accused while the real killers get a chance to do it all over again.

[docshock13]

At the end of the day, don't the police have to prove their case beyond all reasonable doubt? Which, obviously, is impossible. How has it even gone to trial? Of course, I am assuming that fairness exists in the Thai judicial system, which might not be the case and someone can be convicted even if questions remain unanswered.

Sadly here, $$$ and connections determine whether justice or injustice will be served.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Thailand is as beautiful and dangerous as a Venus Fly Trap. It lures its prey in with beauty and the next thing you know the victim is eaten. People come here and know the danger but choose to believe bad things will never happen to them. On the contrary...

[DennisF]

If people researched this story and stopped asking questions that hve been answered on many occasions this topic would b about 5 pages long.

Interested in the topic??

Then make the bloooody effort and read about it before asking stupid questions.

Just a bit of advice.. no offence intended, well, not much

[steven23]

free burmese!!!! Innocent people

[boomerangutang]

One of several reasons the RTP and prosecution team are so flummoxed, is probably because they get the same data from Brit forensics as the defense gets. Defense say they have some very interesting data (advantagous to the defendants) which they will reveal later. Prosecution probably knows what that data is. My educated guess is it's DNA typing which shows there's no match between defendants' DNA and that found in/on Hannah. In other words, if that's true, it blows the prosecution's case clear out of the water, like a 1/4" plywood boat hitting a mine. It will also substantiate what I and many others have been saying on these blogs for months: The RTP is intentionally skewing the DNA trail in order to nail the scapegoats AND in order to try and shield the real culprits from scrutiny.

The crucial DNA is that which was found in/on Hannah. That's what others' DNA is being compared to - regarding 'matches.'

If it's shown that RTP top brass deliberately skewed the evidence, then they should be disciplined to the full extent of the law. Doubtful that could happen in Thailand. 'inactive post' maybe - serious legal ramifications, remote. A top brass will do a runner before he submits to disciplinary action. That's why it's not too soon to confiscate passports. Imagine if that had been done with Thaksin just prior to the Beijing Olympics, when he said, "Trust me, I'm not going to run off. I just want to take my family to the Olympics, and then I'll come right back. I promise." BTW, Thaksin is also a police top brass.

[StealthEnergiser]

A bit of info from different sources on the hoe most people would of seen by now ,

I find it interesting that Mon and a policeman told the cleaner to put gloves on and put the hoe back on the crime, scene personally i think some one may have asked him to give it a good clean first.

Police tried to manipulate Koh Tao witness, court told

U Oh confirmed he was the owner of the garden hoe, which is alleged to have been used as the murder weapon in the case,” Aung Myo Thant said.

“A police officer had earlier testified that the hoe was used to murder the victims, then the blood-stained tool was placed under a bag and discarded on the beach.”

But U Oh testified that the hoe was in the same place he left it the night before, the lawyer said.

“Also, police cajoled him to say he washed off the blood from the hoe. However, that is not what he told the judge. He said that he had not paid any attention to the hoe and was not aware of whether there was any blood on it or not.”

The defence team previously requested the DNA sample to be re-examined by Thailand’s top forensic expert, Dr Pornthip Rojanasunand.

https://www.dvb.no/news/police-tried-to-manipulate-koh-tao-witness-court-told/54664

Lack of Evidence, Local Media Coverage Adds to Mystery of Koh Tao Murder

Last week, a partially blind Burmese beach cleaner told the court he spotted the garden hoe at the scene before police arrived, and returned the tool to its normal spot nearby. Upon police's request, he later retrieved the hoe, which he said he was unaware was covered in blood.

“The garden hoe yielded no DNA traces and no fingerprints, according to police,” said the defendants’ lawyer, Nakhon Chompuchat. “But we think there should be something left.”

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1436774626&typecate=06&section=

Another online source

They also asked why officers took many hours to seal off the crime scene.

Chasit Yoohat, 51, a private doctor from Koh Tao Clinic who was called to the scene, and Montriwat Tuwichean, 46, who owns a bungalow and restaurant named In Touch, who called police, also testified Wednesday.

Court orders retesting of evidence in Koh Tao murder case

Police believe a garden hoe which came from the resort and was found leaning against a tree near the crime scene, was used to bludgeon both victims.

After arriving at the crime scene around 5.40am O admitted removing the hoe from next to the tree and taking it back to a vegetable garden inside the resort where he worked.

Around half an hour later he said he was approached by the resort’s boss and a policeman who told him to put on a pair of gloves and return it to the scene, which he did.

- See more at: http://www.mizzima.c...L.z6wn9MP5.dpuf

Crime scene blunder stopped murder weapon DNA test

Another Burmese migrant worker, known as O, who worked at a local resort, told the second day of the murder trial, which is being held on the nearby island of Koh Samui, that he was first to stumble across the bodies. He said he owned the heavy hoe that police say was used to kill the Britons, and had taken it away from the scene.

“I saw my hoe [near the slain holidaymakers] and took it back to my vegetable garden,” he told the court.

The defence questioned how he had failed to notice blood on the hoe but he said it had been too dark.

Police eventually found the tool hidden by rubbish bags in the garden of the resort where he worked.

http://www.thetimes....icle4493211.ece

[Equalizer]

Is Thai murder trial set to collapse?

KOH SAMUI: -- Families of British backpackers fly home as defence lawyers call for suspects to be acquitted over claims of missing evidence and crime-scene blunders

The families of murdered British backpackers Hannah Witheridge and David Miller flew home from Thailand yesterday as the legal team representing the accused claimed the case was on the verge of collapse.

Burmese migrants Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo face a possible death penalty if they are convicted of sexually assaulting and killing Hannah, 23, with a hoe, and clubbing David, 24, unconscious before leaving him to drown on a beach on Kao Tao island last September.

Hannah’s father and brother, and David’s parents and brother last week flew to neighbouring Kao Samui for the three-day opening of the trial, where they were visibly shocked as photographs of the bodies were casually handed around the court.

The case – marred by claims of missing evidence and crime-scene blunders – was adjourned yesterday until July 22 while the defendants’ lawyers prepare to call for their acquittal.

‘We hope by the end of the prosecution case, we will have destroyed it and we will show that it is completely lacking in credibility,’ said Andy Hall, a British migrant rights activist working with defence lawyers.

Mr Hall said the defence held ‘incredibly significant information from an independent authority’ with which it would discredit the prosecution case when the trial reopens. He declined to give more details but the information is believed to relate to DNA samples obtained from Hannah’s body after it was returned to the UK.

Kao Tao’s migrant workers were subjected to mass DNA testing before Zaw and Wai, both 22, were arrested amid global media attention and intense pressure on police to find the killers.

The pair confessed to the murders but later withdrew their statements, claiming police had tortured them. Police insist they have DNA evidence linking them to the murders but said key samples could not be independently tested because they had been ‘used up’ by forensics teams. They also admitted the crime scene had been contaminated, and that the hoe was removed before it was forensically examined.

Police have been accused of making scapegoats of migrants amid claims that the real killers were Thai men linked to powerful families who are said to run Kao Tao.

David’s father said on Friday the families were ‘keeping an open mind’. The trial is due to last until September, with a verdict expected in October.

--Mail Online: 2015-07-12

Well i do like blowing my own trumpet so here goes. I said British forensics will obtain DNA and now i know why they have kept it stump. They knew that if it was announced before the trial began this trial would probably never happen as these two would have been found hanging in their cells. They revealed it after the commencement and it makes perfectly logical sense.

[boomerangutang]

Perhaps a modern lie detector should be used to determine the truth. I mean on the police offers involved in the case...........

Water boarding...

Start with the chef of police...

Where's Dick Cheney when you need him? Perhaps he can hop on a plane and bring his waterboard with him. Put hinges on it, fold it up, and perhaps he can take it as carry-on luggage.

"we're waxing down our surfboards, we can't wait for June." Beach Boys

[steven23]

if there is justice it should collapse !!!

[boomerangutang]

Yes that section of the interview with the doctor starts at 16.40 unfortunately its all in Thai but I remember some posters on here months ago mentioning that he was saying that the wounds on David were caused by a knife?

I believe it was shown to be likely that the wounds were caused by a fistblade, or whatever they are called. Fit inside your fist and have a very nasty one inch blade protruding out through your fingers.

Yes, that's what reasonable people might deduce from looking at the wounds. However, I don't think Thai forensics have deduced that David's wounds were caused by a blade. All I've heard in that regard, is Thai forensics saying all his wounds were caused by hoe. The reenactment - same same.

There's a reason, in my view. If Thai forensics did the right thing, and claimed David's wounds were caused by a weaponized ring or a fist-held blade (they're very similar weapons) - then that could implicate some of the people who are buddies with Mon (because they sported those types of weapons until right after the crime) - and that's a complete no-no. Thai officialdom want no mention of Mon or Nomsod.

[StealthEnergiser]

Yes that section of the interview with the doctor starts at 16.40 unfortunately its all in Thai but I remember some posters on here months ago mentioning that he was saying that the wounds on David were caused by a knife?

I believe it was shown to be likely that the wounds were caused by a fistblade, or whatever they are called. Fit inside your fist and have a very nasty one inch blade protruding out through your fingers.

Yes, that's what reasonable people might deduce from looking at the wounds. However, I don't think Thai forensics have deduced that David's wounds were caused by a blade. All I've heard in that regard, is Thai forensics saying all his wounds were caused by hoe. The reenactment - same same.

There's a reason, in my view. If Thai forensics did the right thing, and claimed David's wounds were caused by a weaponized ring or a fist-held blade (they're very similar weapons) - then that could implicate some of the people who are buddies with Mon (because they sported those types of weapons until right after the crime) - and that's a complete no-no. Thai officialdom want no mention of Mon or Nomsod.

Its going to be very interesting at the next part of the trial to see what evidence the prosecution use as they would be well aware now that the defence has substantial information that may blow the case wide open. If others have been asked to lie I think they will be having second thoughts.

The should be a much stronger media presence and Prayuth should be advised that he was wrong and should be reminded that he spoke to British and Burmese leader promising a fair trial.

I think we will see signs of panic before the next trial dates.

Edited July 13, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[thailandchilli]

Enjoy

[boomerangutang]

Interesting that Sonthi named names (in the video). Being a power broker himself, he's much more in-tune with VIP names, than most of here on T.Visa. Even tho he expressed himself with confidence, he also had a slight grin - which indicated something like: "yes, the system is corrupt. Yes, the two Burmese are scapegoats, and we know there are powerful people who are untouchable, but hey, this is Thailand, whadya expect? Time rolls on. There's nothing much you or I can do about it. It's a time-honored tradition, that VIP's and police brass are untouchable."

Alternatively, Sonthi (and other influential Thais who see the light) - could make a campaign out of what they know about the inside shenanigans of the sham investigation. However, to do more than he's already done, would quite possibly put himself in harm's way.

At the end of the day, don't the police have to prove their case beyond all reasonable doubt? Which, obviously, is impossible. How has it even gone to trial? Of course, I am assuming that fairness exists in the Thai judicial system, which might not be the case and someone can be convicted even if questions remain unanswered.

Sadly here, $$$ and connections determine whether justice or injustice will be served.

Doc, you said just what I was going to say. In the Thai justice system, there are factors which take precedence over justice. 'beyond reasonable doubt'? ...that's a silly farang concept.

[NeverSure]

I always wanted the Brits to find something but I understood the following. Please correct me.

1. The Brits weren't allowed to participate in the actual investigation. They were stonewalled in Thailand.

2. The Brits may have gotten DNA from Hannah upon the return of her body to the UK but:

a. They weren't allowed to independently get DNA from the suspects to compare.

b. The bodies were thoroughly cleaned and embalmed before being returned to the UK.

[thailandchilli]

More reports of a trial collapse possibility, this time from the Witherbridge families local newspaper:

Thai murder trial could collapse: men accused of killing Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge due back in court next week

After three days of evidence last week, defence lawyers and a human rights activist representing Myanmar nationals Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Tu have called for the case against them to be dropped.

“Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo (Win Zaw Tun) now have no chance to retest crucial Thailand based forensic evidence implicating them in the crimes they are charged of.”

The trial has drawn global attention. Initial reports said the DNA evidence had been lost but police said that was a misunderstanding.

http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/thai_murder_trial_could_collapse_men_accused_of_killing_norfolk_student_hannah_witheridge_due_back_in_court_next_week_1_4150210

Edited July 13, 2015 by thailandchilli

[minikev]

The video show police and forensics doctor being interviewed on tv .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ_1WfVs7RY&feature=player_embedded

Yes that section of the interview with the doctor starts at 16.40 unfortunately its all in Thai but I remember some posters on here months ago mentioning that he was saying that the wounds on David were caused by a knife? But I may be wrong. Would be so useful if there was someone on here who could do a reliable translation.............................

The interviewer suggests that the hoe is not likely to be the instrument to make these wounds and that it is more likely to be one of the knuckle knives as suggested by a particular facebook user. The doctor says that scarring would be as deep as the blade in question and would "scratch" the bone if a knuckle blade was used. The hoe could cause this wound as the skin would split on contact from a heavy blow and in fact these scars are what would be expected from a heavy blow from a blunt instument.

I am pretty fluent and this is what I interperet him to say.

[thailandchilli]

The video show police and forensics doctor being interviewed on tv .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ_1WfVs7RY&feature=player_embedded

Yes that section of the interview with the doctor starts at 16.40 unfortunately its all in Thai but I remember some posters on here months ago mentioning that he was saying that the wounds on David were caused by a knife? But I may be wrong. Would be so useful if there was someone on here who could do a reliable translation.............................

The interviewer suggests that the hoe is not likely to be the instrument to make these wounds and that it is more likely to be one of the knuckle knives as suggested by a particular facebook user. The doctor says that scarring would be as deep as the blade in question and would "scratch" the bone if a knuckle blade was used. The hoe could cause this wound as the skin would split on contact from a heavy blow and in fact these scars are what would be expected from a heavy blow from a blunt instument.

I am pretty fluent and this is what I interperet him to say.

Thanks

So the RTP's expert doctor is confirming the prosecutors case that its the hoe that caused the wounds..........their in for more shocks soon at the trial then, this will be ripped apart by the defense, little wonder the prosecutors have not brought all the detailed photos to court.

Edited July 13, 2015 by thailandchilli

[bunglebag]

The only important thing is the proof that the DNA found in Hannah's body belongs to the 2 Burmese. The other elements come only in supplement.

All the rest is barren drivel that does not honor its authors.

Even if that happened (genuine match or not) can you tell me how does that prove murder exactly?

I really don't think you should call things like potential murder weapons supplemental?

e.g. if there was dna from person x in hannah and none from person y, but only fingerprints from person y on the murder weapon then who is more likely to have been the murderer?

[meekhao1066]

I hope not but:

If the RTP knew their investigation and arrests were inaccurate would they send the bodies back to the UK without either trying to remove DNA with either removal of body parts or oxygen bleaching (no idea if this works on a body) of the bodies …. or is this too forward looking even for them.

Oh we had to remove the body parts for the DNA testing!

I rather feel that the UK autopsy will state the bodies were in a condition that would not allow foreign DNA to be collected …. for reasons stated …. I truly hope not!

Is it likely that Mike Moulden will be able to testify or will the judge rule his testimony inadmissible …. not known as an expert by the Thai court whatever his CV states. Even if it was tried to be shown that Hannah died from gun shot wounds.

And why would a Thai court allow the defence to offer evidence from another countries persons?

I sadly feel that what ever the defence states or tries to introduce as evidence it is a lost cause ….. not to say give up (of course not keep trying to find the truth) …. but!

Edited July 13, 2015 by metisdead
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[bunglebag]

I would not know where to find it, so only speculation but there was suggestion that he flew out of Surat on the first flight, flying under his fathers name.

After taking the "little duck" and having to ask directions from fishermen on the way to the mainland.

Yes these were some of the early stories, first few days. I wonder if that speedboat driver found hiding in a cave has ever had anything to do with Little Duck (name of boat, or a boat belonging to Little Duck Tours & Restaurant, Koh Samui, or both?).

If the flight aspect is true then I would have thought that under the circumstances he would not fly under his or his father's name if possible but who knows. How much id is required for an internal flight?

Those are just some of the things that farang investigators would have looked in to - if allowed to do any investigating. That's why the PM made it clear "British are welcome as observers-only" even tho the Thai PM had agreed to the UK PM's request, the day before - to allow British investigators. RTP echoers will tell you it's justified, because Thailand is a sovereign country, but the reality is; countries often cooperate on crime investigations.

As for DNA. RTP first claimed Nomsod's didn't match. They followed up with claiming the B2' DNA did match. Both results were announced quite quickly - particularly for a country which claimed, 2 weeks prior, they didn't have facilities for DNA typing. It all hinged on the DNA found in/on Hannah. Only RTP top brass could claim what that crucial DNA was, so everyone else had to take their word for it. ha ha, big mistake.

Now we find there's no way RTP can produce that crucial DNA or the samples to get re-tested. If there was any doubt in anyone's mind the RTP were lying (about the DNA found in Hannah) .....the RTP's own screw-ups should make it all crystal clear. The only samples of DNA which may be reliable, are in British custody. Will they release the samples or the typing? I suspect they have released the typing - to both the prosecution and defense. That's why the prosecution is stumbling over itself and why the defense mentions they've got a favorable surprise coming re; the DNA.

Personally I feel one of the biggest DNA queries has to be Mon's. The local (owned) plod allegedly did a test on him the morning after he and his dodgy copper mate tried to get Sean into the jungle for a hanging. About 8 hours later apparently it was not a match. But a week or two later BKK forensic dept said absolute minimum of 24 hours for a turnaround (and that's without travel time too).

I know it's not possible but damn I'd love to see genuine samples of Mon, Nomsod, and all the AC bar DJs (including Nomsod, Fat Hoe boy, DJ David Love and the rest) and maybe some fire dancers for starters put against DNA recovered from the bodies in the UK.

We know the DJs in particular like guns, knives and other gimicky weapons too like wee knuckle knives. We know the family associated with the bar in question own the local police, We know they are partial to the odd Western girl, and we know they don't like to lose face and we know that they think they are untouchable - indeed they may be. We know that some of these at least were in AC bar that night, maybe Nomsod was there too possibly with one or two HiSo friends from BKK with whom he seemed to be joking about the murders the next day on facebook. The lack of cctv provided by ac bar of that night is deafening me thinks.