How to transliterate this?

[Kanga Japan]

Can someone tell me how to transliterate บรัสเซลส์, as it is pronounced in Thai?

The RTGS shows it as BRATSEN.

Thank you for your help.

[AyG]

The RTGS (from thai-language.com?) looks wrong. There's no BR consonant cluster in Thai.

BARATSEN would be right.

[Kanga Japan]

Thanks for that AyG.

I tried it again with the RTGS (from thai-language.com). The first time, when I entered it with another word, it came out pratsen. When I entered it by itself, it came out again as bratsen.

I will use BARATSEN.

Thank you again.

[MaeJoMTB]

Boratsane

[Kanga Japan]

Dear MaeJoMTB,

Thank you for that, but I am confused now. I wonder which is correct.

[starrdog]

There's no BR consonant cluster in Thai.

There is for loanwords. From thai-language.com when looking up Brussels and Brazil:

"9. In this word the combination บร or บล is pronounced as an initial double consonant 'BR' or 'BL'. This is usually only the case for loanwords from other languages such as English."

Edited July 8, 2015 by starrdog

[AyG]

There's no BR consonant cluster in Thai.

There is for loanwords. From thai-language.com when looking up Brussels and Brazil:

"9. In this word the combination บร or บล is pronounced as an initial double consonant 'BR' or 'BL'. This is usually only the case for loanwords from other languages such as English."

You're placing far too much weight on the authority of a site that openly admits that its transliterations are based upon computer algorithm and are frequently wrong.

If a cluster "BR" does not exist in Thai, then Thai people aren't magically going to acquire the ability to pronounce such a cluster because an imported word uses it. That's pretty much about as ludicrous as suggesting that the majority of Thai people can pronounce "sport" without transforming it into "SA-PORT".

Some educated Thai people who have been exposed to English may be able to pronounce the "BR" initial cluster, much as some may be able to pronounce "SPORT". However, the vast majority won't be able to.

So, for the vast majority of Thai speakers there is no BR consonant cluster in Thai.

[starrdog]

You may be right, but since ปร is quite common, I don't really see บร as being too far of a stretch for "the vast majority".

[MaeJoMTB]

Just been corrected by a Thai

= BRASIL

[starrdog]

Yeah, I just asked a Thai friend to read บราซิล and he got it no problem. I asked how he knew and he looked offended that I even asked, saying Thais are football fans and everyone knows Brazil.

[Richard W]

I concur with the original post - "Bratsen" is the correct RTGS transliteration of the Thai word for 'Brussels'. What's the context? Brussels sprouts?

The RID gives a mix of br- and bar- for loan words from English.

Initial /dr/ allegedly occurs in Thai [M]hai[M]droo[M]jen 'hydrogen' and derivatives.

[leosmith]

I'd transliterate it as brat(L)seew using my own crazy invented transliteration. I don't like transliteration at all, but especially transliteration that doesn't include tone information, and says things like ก = k and ข = kh.

[wprime]

It's Brusells but a Thai would pronounce as Brutsen

[Briggsy]

It is Brussels. I suspect the r would most likely be dropped. The first vowel would be a ั . The final consonant cluster, ls, would be approximated to a ว.

[leosmith]

All this speculation…here are some native speakers.

Here (39 sec in) it sounds like I was expecting. I think we all agree that transliteration is crap, so in phonetic Thai it's บรัด-เซล (with the ล making a w-like sound…or an L sound without touching the tip of your tongue to the roof of your mouth at the end).

Here (12 sec in) it sounds more like บรัด-เซล (with the ล making an L-like sound).

Finally here (12 sec in), it sounds like บรัด-เซ่ล (the final tone is falling and the ล is an L-like sound).

[Neeranam]

You may be right, but since ปร is quite common, I don't really see บร as being too far of a stretch for "the vast majority".

It is common and no problem for Thais. There are a few loan words like เบรก (brake) or บรีซ (breeze).

[Kanga Japan]

Thank you all for your help on this subject.