Greece seeks 3-year aid program, rushes to detail reforms

[TheAppletons]

Not necessary.

He just don't pay the money

Nationalize the banks

Print New Drachma or he could even print Euro

and/or he lift the sanctions against Russia

Russia and China help Greece with a few billions for humanitarian reasons (They don't need that much money if they declare the old debts illegal).

Turkey is also ready to help

OF course that would cause a reaction from the EU, no idea what these incompetent politicians would do. USA sent already their regime change specialists in the region

'Turkey is also ready to help'. Love it.

Yeah, I missed that first time around. That is funny.

[h90]

Greece gets another deadline, this time its Sunday and it appears to be firm.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2015-07-08/greece-s-last-stand-europe-gives-athens-final-deadline?cmpid=yhoo

Given the fact that the Greek banks are closed for 2 weeks already and social unrest is imminent, I think that this deadline is the real one.

Bankruptcy will take place on July 20th when they will fail to pay the ECB. IF there's no deal Sunday there won't be time enough to get the proposals through the parliaments. Tsipras will have to accept a deal that is more austere or strict than the one the Greeks voted OXI against last Sunday. Check mate for Tsipras and the Greeks, Sad thing is that most Europeans, including moi, think the Greeks deserve whats facing them. The anti Europe rhetoric and insults have not stayed unnoticed.

Not necessary.

He just don't pay the money

Nationalize the banks

Print New Drachma or he could even print Euro

and/or he lift the sanctions against Russia

Russia and China help Greece with a few billions for humanitarian reasons (They don't need that much money if they declare the old debts illegal).

Turkey is also ready to help

OF course that would cause a reaction from the EU, no idea what these incompetent politicians would do. USA sent already their regime change specialists in the region

'Turkey is also ready to help'. Love it.

yes they told so 1 week ago, which has either to do with the gas pipeline or they want to put their past tensions to an end / buy themself some concessions

[Ulic]

With all this greece talk which is starting to look like a stuck record, myself, being totally dumb about all this high finance raving, don't understand any of it. If I want a loan from a bank I have to put up some form of security to safeguard the lender and if I can't pay the the loan bank I lose my security. i.e. my house. It therefore seems to my little bit of grey matter that-

1. What security did the lenders get. If none then why did they lend the money in the first place?

2. If Greece did have some form of security why did the not pay back the loan, say on a monthly basis, whatever?

My conclusion is that the lenders were just greedy and and didn't investigate Greece's economy sufficiently and should never have loaned the money and that Greece simply lived beyond their means.

Surely the blame is equally on both.

It was all a scam from the start by the Troika.

The Greek government basically ended up with less than 10% of the bailout money once the ECB and German, French and Italian banksters worked their magic.

They didn't ask for security because at that level what can a goverment give?..... They can not put up sovereign assets because they belong to the people.. They created bonds.

They also paid sweetners to the Troika and everyone involved. Arms deals agreed etc etc.... All that money was siphoned away from Greece and then left them lumped with the debts.

Everything you read in the media is all smoke and mirrors. I suggest you read up on the subject from outside independant economists for the truth.

The EU have behaved the exact same way you expect an organisation that does not even do audits on its finances to act.

Ask yourself this.... How can an Italian National bank add 24 Bn to Greeces bailout pot when Italy was itself already bailed out?? Smell fishy does it??

You keep saying the bailout was a scam and the Greek people got nothing but I don't understand your point.

The Greeks got a 107 billion write down of debt and the Euro zone took over at the creditors. The Greeks got the

money originally, years before, 200+ billion. Then the money keep being spent. A lot of talk about suffering

though austerity, but the Greeks did not live up to commitments to restructure the economy and privatize state assets.

After the last election the government started to hire back terminated staff and have since driven an economy

that now had a balanced budget (not including loan repayments) and modest growth, deep, deep into contraction.

You may blame the EU for this, I blame the Greek government. We agree to disagree. Either way I think it is time for

Greeks to pull up there big boy pants and take responsibility for themselves. Decline any further loans, go back

to the Drachma, negotiate a percentage of loan they should repay (they already got a 50% 107 billion write down)

and then they would have the dignity they want. Right now they are the looser 40 year old children who keep going

back to Mum and Dad for money because the can't budget properly. Europe will be better off without the drag.

Greece will eventually be better off and will have dignity. The rest of Europe will have a shot across the bow to

get its financial houses in order. Yes you can spend through a recession raising the valleys, but you have to

pay off the debts and put away a little something when things are good. Just like everyone here. Either that or do

without. ie austerity. Take not either way Greeks are going to get it. Now it will just be worse, not ended.

[NeverSure]

The USA owes China about 2 trillion at the last count I believe, would have been a lot more but China have cleverly spent a lot of their USD buying up as much gold as they can get their hands on to back the Yuan.

It is set to announce its gold reserves for the first time in over 5 years, this will shake the USD. It is tipped to be quadruple the amount of its last known holdings making it the second biggest gold reserve in the world slightly under what the USA says it has (which it does not have) which means it is the biggest gold reserve and growing.

Do not be surprised if the Yuan is soon the new global reserve currency. People have a lot more confidence in gold back currency than pie in the sky fake paper.

"The USA owes China about 2 trillion at the last count I believe, would have been a lot more but China have cleverly spent a lot of their USD buying up as much gold as they can get their hands on to back the Yuan."

The US doesn't owe China money!! China must hold USD to engage in international trade because NO ONE will accept its money for anything. China, as do most countries including Thailand, holds USD to back its international trades. It holds them in the form of Treasuries. If it sold them it would be out of international business and broke!

"Do not be surprised if the Yuan is soon the new global reserve currency. People have a lot more confidence in gold back currency than pie in the sky fake paper."

There isn't enough gold in all of the world to back China's money even if they owned all of it. The quality of things you must read or listen to must be printed on comic book paper. China is broke, is crashing, is desperate, and if it had surplus gold or money owed to it by the US it would be desperately cashing it in right now.

China is a non transparent, shadowy system who no one trusts and its currency isn't trusted either. If it said it had enough gold to back its money it wouldn't be true even if anyone believed it.

China.

[NeverSure]

The zone that is broke is the Eurozone. The United States Federal Reserve Bank already bailed it out with a $USD 2 trillion loan in December of 2011 - 3 1/2 years ago.

"The Federal Reserve's Covert Bailout of Europe"

By GERALD P. O'DRISCOLL JR.

December 28, 2011

"America's central bank, the Federal Reserve, is engaged in a bailout of European banks. Surprisingly, its operation is largely unnoticed here."

The Federal Reserve's Covert Bailout of Europe

Watch for the Fed to have to bail it out again. Neither China nor Russia could bail them out because they are already sucking air.

Cheers

[melvinmelvin]

The USA owes China about 2 trillion at the last count I believe, would have been a lot more but China have cleverly spent a lot of their USD buying up as much gold as they can get their hands on to back the Yuan.

It is set to announce its gold reserves for the first time in over 5 years, this will shake the USD. It is tipped to be quadruple the amount of its last known holdings making it the second biggest gold reserve in the world slightly under what the USA says it has (which it does not have) which means it is the biggest gold reserve and growing.

Do not be surprised if the Yuan is soon the new global reserve currency. People have a lot more confidence in gold back currency than pie in the sky fake paper.

"The USA owes China about 2 trillion at the last count I believe, would have been a lot more but China have cleverly spent a lot of their USD buying up as much gold as they can get their hands on to back the Yuan."

The US doesn't owe China money!! China must hold USD to engage in international trade because NO ONE will accept its money for anything. China, as do most countries including Thailand, holds USD to back its international trades. It holds them in the form of Treasuries. If it sold them it would be out of international business and broke!

"Do not be surprised if the Yuan is soon the new global reserve currency. People have a lot more confidence in gold back currency than pie in the sky fake paper."

There isn't enough gold in all of the world to back China's money even if they owned all of it. The quality of things you must read or listen to must be printed on comic book paper. China is broke, is crashing, is desperate, and if it had surplus gold or money owed to it by the US it would be desperately cashing it in right now.

China is a non transparent, shadowy system who no one trusts and its currency isn't trusted either. If it said it had enough gold to back its money it wouldn't be true even if anyone believed it.

China.

How does that apply to Greece and the Eurozone/Euro ongoing problems?

[Srikcir]

"reform plan, Greece requested a new three-year rescue"

I don't think that is the kind of reform EU is expecting.

The Greek majority needs to be held accountable for its economic decisions as reflected by the governments it has elected. An exit from the EU will bring reality to the nation - no longer will platitudes suffice to calm its citizens.

Greece can go back to being a third world country until such time (a decade or so) that it can become fiscally responsible. OOPA!

[NeverSure]

How does that apply to Greece and the Eurozone/Euro ongoing problems?

It started with an OP that mentioned the Fed's position and opinion on this. 3 1/2 years ago the US Fed bailed the Eurozone/Euro banks out with a $USD 2 trillion dollar loan. The Eurozone is in big trouble and can't kick Greece out or it would start the unwinding of money in all of the banks due to fractional reserve banking.

Have you wondered why it is the Eurozone begging Greece instead of the other way around?

The Fed knows it is the backstop for this in a worse case scenario and the OP mentioned the Fed's comments.

"Some people" wanted to claim the Fed is too weak due to China. That notion must be dispelled to see the workings behind this.

The discussion peeled off the OP which I assume is on topic? Apparently the OP thought it was.

Cheers

[Guest]

The head of a conservative group in the parliament, Belgium's Guy Verhofstadt, said he was "furious" at Tsipras' failure to spell out specifics of his reform plans.

Here is the quite straightforward speech of Belgium's ex Prime minister. I wish my MP's would be like him.

https://www.facebook.com/GuyVerhofstadt/videos/10153988726765016/

[smedly]

yeh give them more money .....right ?

[Scott]

Numerous posts and replies have been removed and suspensions will be given. This topic is about Greece. It is not about the US or China, at least not directly.

There is a topic about the Chinese economic situation here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/839092-bot-monitors-china-stocks/

Edit: More off-topic posts have been removed. Continue and you will receive a suspension.

[Baerboxer]

LOL. Just look how desperate Europe is to keep Greece despite protestations to the contrary. If it wasn't, the vote against austerity and the past due loans and the begging for more money would have sealed Greece's fate. All noises from the Eurozone are bluffs.

"The head of a conservative group in the parliament, Belgium's Guy Verhofstadt, said he was "furious" at Tsipras' failure to spell out specifics of his reform plans."

Furious, LOL. Why doesn't he just drop the hammer? Why doesn't anyone?

They know that if they kick Greece out it will start and unwinding of money throughout the Eurozone as shrinking economies run out of money in the banks. It's an unwinding of fractional reserve banking.

It's ironic that Greece could cause panic in the rest of the Eurozone, and not the other way around. Greece hold all of the cards.

"U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew added pressure on the European lenders, arguing debt relief was needed for a deal — and describing a Greek euro-exit as a "geopolitical mistake.""

I'm betting that the US Federal Reserve Bank has to step in and bail out the whole of the Eurozone. Again. Those European countries with their smug socialism and better-than-thou ideas are about to get a comeuppance.

Cheers

I agree with you that they are desperate to keep Greece in. They should not and just drop the hammer. I don't agree that it would be the end of the eurozone. It would send a signal to countries to behave.

As for the US to bail anyone the US is Chinese owned soon they will rival the Greek dept. its over 104% most European countries are far lower debt wise Germany at 78% Netherlands at 73,5%

Greece has admitted forging numbers to meet the admission criteria to the Euro, and maybe did the same on entering the EU. Successive governments have simply lived on others' money. Now they try to avoid the consequences of the lenders stopping the hand outs or paying back the loans, or even the interest which they can't as they're bankrupt.

Ignoring the political agenda, kicking them out would seem just. But then, the probability is that Greece isn't the only country that lied and cheated with it's figures to meet the entry criteria.

Politically, it's in everyone's interest to sort a deal out. Too much could come out and too much could unravel. Will anyone from the Greek authorities, government, civil service or the auditors ever face any consequences of the initial lies? Doubt it - all be swept under the carpet and then the big rows will follow as France tries to get Germany, Britain, Holland and Scandinavia to pay for it all.

Either way, not good for the unity and future of the EU.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Baerboxer