PM Prayut blames previous governments for water shortage

[billd766]

Earlier he blamed the water shortage on the previous rice scheme using too much water. Now the previous govt. did not manage the dams.

Oh and 14 students were agitated by a 'politician outside the country'. And the bombs in the south are due to the two political parties.

There's only one thing leaky here.

"Now the previous govt. did not manage the dams." And he is exactly RIGHT. Yingluk ordered the operating curves of the major storage dams changed to a lower level because she did not want to be blamed for mismanagement of another flood. Between Jan and July 2012, 7.5 billion Cubic Metres of additional water (ie over and above normal level reduction) were dumped from Bhumipol and Sirikit Dams, the 2 largest, despite obvious evidence an el Nino event was imminent.

From October 2012 the levels in these dams dropped below the new lower storage levels and have never recovered back to that operating level.

http://www.thaiwater.net/DATA/REPORT/php/rid_dam_1.php?lang=en

Clicking on each dam will produce an inter-active graph (which I can't link to) giving daily levels in each of the dams.

His statement regarding catchment areas sounds off to me, but the allegation that Yingluk AGAIN mismanaged dams is indisputable.

Banharn and his party were looking after the control philosophy for the dams, not Yingluck. I gave a talk to the American Chamber of Commerce and some Government advisors at the time. I have all the data on rainfall and capacity of reservoirs and dams required. The problem at the time of the floods was that the heavy rains fell mainly in the Yom River basin catchment area which was where the Yom River Dam/reservoir was supposed to have been built, but was cancelled in 2006 following another coup. During the last floods and recent rainfall patterns, there have been only light rains in the catchment areas feeding the existing dams/reservoirs. The dams serve to store excess rains during the monsoon to regulate the down stream flow in the rivers but also they need to store enough water to cover the irrigation/drinking water requirements during periods of drought. Without the Yom River Dam/reservoir there has always been a higher risk of floods or water shortage because they cannot control the water flow properly without the Yom River Dam and reservoirs which was stopped due to environmentalists demonstrating against it.

But (not) Banharn as I belive he was no longer in any government postion but HIS party was, just as they were in charge during the floods of 2011. His party WAS part of the PTP coalition government and I suspect as he was (and probably still is) a great friend of Thaksin his party was given that ministry as a sop for joining the coalition. His minister would not have made the decision to lower the dam levels on his own so somebody in the ruling PTP told him what to do and as a loyal party member he did as he was told.

Can you remember the PTP party election slogan?

"Thaksin thinks, PTP acts".

That may give some people a clue as to who was running things when the PTP was in power.

[halloween]

Still waiting for your debunking Estrada's post too Halloween, which will be fun considering he actually is an SME, it's ironic as you are having a wee pop at some posters on another thread about not cow towing to your "tables" post.

I have no idea what you are talking about, more information please.

Don't bother, found it.

Edited July 21, 2015 by halloween

[Eric Loh]

Why do you lie like this. The floods took place in September to December 2011. The PTP government took office in middle August 2011. If you wanted to lower the level of the dams to avoid flooding downstream water had to be let out over a 3 month period. So your lies don't tie up. There isnt 3 months between middle August and middle September. The Dems was in power untill middle August and the flood was already building up and areas such as Singburi was already flooded, but they did nothing to prevent the flood reaching BKK. If you want to confirm this search for NASA images taken at that time. PTP spend money (B 80 bn) on building flood walls at the industrial estates and all of these walls have been completed. PTP provided funds to the BMA to dredge canals in BKK and remove water plants that prevents water flowing. Dredging is however not a once off task, it must be repeated on an annual basis. The present government have provided zero Baht for these tasks.

The present government canceled the B 350 bn flood prevention projects, which included a water management system, the system that could have prevented the present chaos. They also stated publicaly that this B 350 bn would be used for drought related projects. None of these drought projects ever materialised. This is however a dead give away that they knew about the pending drought already last year and did nothing to prevent its impact. Why didnt they cut the outflows from dams when they knew there was a drought ? Why did they not react on the international warnings of a pending El Nino ? Incompetence or arrogance or false belief in rain dances ?

Can you please provide proof of any flood related funds been stolen by PTP? Any I mean I will even accept an article written by BKK Post in which they speculate that some of the B 80 bn was stolen with even meager evidence. Untill today the present government have never ever mentioned corruption in the spending of the B 80 bn, but you offcourse know better and more than them.

As none of the B 350 bn was ever spend on the flood prevention projects how could any corruption have taken place. Please explain how this is possible. Your dear great leader canceled all of the projects and after that there is no trace of what the money was used for. Maybe it was used for other projects or for salary increases or it never got spend, but there was never a public explanation of what this funds was used for. I am not saying they stole the money, just saying the public lost track of the funds.

When the PTP was in office, there were only small flash floods in different province, these flash floods are the same that happens every year. PTP deliberately delayed the release of flood water so farmers can bring in a 3rd crop. PTP's Agriculture Minister even admitted to this mistake.

As for corruption, if you simply search "PTP flood prevention corruption" on google, there were many cases and complaints.

Not saying the current government is any better as nothing has been done.

Let put what the Agri Minister said in the correct perspective and not out of context. He didn't admit it was a mistake but acknowledged that it was his decision to delay water release and he went on to state his reasons. Those were reasons worthy of consideration like causing farmers additional problems during harvesting and that rainfall was unusually 50% higher than normal. Agree on second point that all flood aids and prevention are mired with corruption just like any other projects in the hands of civil servants.

[halloween]

Obviously you have no idea of Thai politics. To say that Past P.M. Banharn is a very minor player is very naïve. It was a coalition Government and Banharn's party were in control of the dams, Yingluck could not go up against his decision. As an expert and consultant in water engineering having followed and been involved in the King's Master Plan for flood prevention and water conservation since 1982 I am fully aware of the real cause of the flooding and water shortages is caused by non implementation of phase III of the King's Master Plan.

Right, a party which had an absolute majority absolutely needed coalition partners to govern. Even if "Yingluck could not go up against his decision" she was the PM, and despite her weakness, the responsibility is hers.

The admitted fault of not dropping dam level has already been covered.

[Baerboxer]

More to the point, what's being done right now, that will reduce the problem of water shortage that will inevitably arise (no pun intended) next year at the same time?

Probably about the same as always - not a lot. If it rains to much we'll have a flood; if it doesn't rain enough a drought. That's mother nature for you.

I do remember someone from the current government going to the Netherlands. The Dutch are the real experts for obvious reasons. I lived there and saw just how clever they are, because they have to be.

Interesting side btw, whilst I was there. Dutch TV did an investigative program which showed the German plan for extreme flood relief should the parts of Germany bordering the Netherlands be massively flooded. The plan, you probably guessed, was to divert the water and flood the Netherlands!

[smutcakes]

Obviously you have no idea of Thai politics. To say that Past P.M. Banharn is a very minor player is very naïve. It was a coalition Government and Banharn's party were in control of the dams, Yingluck could not go up against his decision. As an expert and consultant in water engineering having followed and been involved in the King's Master Plan for flood prevention and water conservation since 1982 I am fully aware of the real cause of the flooding and water shortages is caused by non implementation of phase III of the King's Master Plan.

Right, a party which had an absolute majority absolutely needed coalition partners to govern. Even if "Yingluck could not go up against his decision" she was the PM, and despite her weakness, the responsibility is hers.

The admitted fault of not dropping dam level has already been covered.

In your own words from another thread is Abhisit not the PM controlling things?

[AlQaholic]

At least he didn't throw bananas at the reporters.....

[mike324]

Why do you lie like this. The floods took place in September to December 2011. The PTP government took office in middle August 2011. If you wanted to lower the level of the dams to avoid flooding downstream water had to be let out over a 3 month period. So your lies don't tie up. There isnt 3 months between middle August and middle September. The Dems was in power untill middle August and the flood was already building up and areas such as Singburi was already flooded, but they did nothing to prevent the flood reaching BKK. If you want to confirm this search for NASA images taken at that time. PTP spend money (B 80 bn) on building flood walls at the industrial estates and all of these walls have been completed. PTP provided funds to the BMA to dredge canals in BKK and remove water plants that prevents water flowing. Dredging is however not a once off task, it must be repeated on an annual basis. The present government have provided zero Baht for these tasks.

The present government canceled the B 350 bn flood prevention projects, which included a water management system, the system that could have prevented the present chaos. They also stated publicaly that this B 350 bn would be used for drought related projects. None of these drought projects ever materialised. This is however a dead give away that they knew about the pending drought already last year and did nothing to prevent its impact. Why didnt they cut the outflows from dams when they knew there was a drought ? Why did they not react on the international warnings of a pending El Nino ? Incompetence or arrogance or false belief in rain dances ?

Can you please provide proof of any flood related funds been stolen by PTP? Any I mean I will even accept an article written by BKK Post in which they speculate that some of the B 80 bn was stolen with even meager evidence. Untill today the present government have never ever mentioned corruption in the spending of the B 80 bn, but you offcourse know better and more than them.

As none of the B 350 bn was ever spend on the flood prevention projects how could any corruption have taken place. Please explain how this is possible. Your dear great leader canceled all of the projects and after that there is no trace of what the money was used for. Maybe it was used for other projects or for salary increases or it never got spend, but there was never a public explanation of what this funds was used for. I am not saying they stole the money, just saying the public lost track of the funds.

When the PTP was in office, there were only small flash floods in different province, these flash floods are the same that happens every year. PTP deliberately delayed the release of flood water so farmers can bring in a 3rd crop. PTP's Agriculture Minister even admitted to this mistake.

As for corruption, if you simply search "PTP flood prevention corruption" on google, there were many cases and complaints.

Not saying the current government is any better as nothing has been done.

Let put what the Agri Minister said in the correct perspective and not out of context. He didn't admit it was a mistake but acknowledged that it was his decision to delay water release and he went on to state his reasons. Those were reasons worthy of consideration like causing farmers additional problems during harvesting and that rainfall was unusually 50% higher than normal. Agree on second point that all flood aids and prevention are mired with corruption just like any other projects in the hands of civil servants.

Yup hardly any politician will admit its a mistake. But their reasoning was not valid argument as the economy dropped like a stone causing more damaged than it benefited. PTP argued the point that water was already full and they couldn't not have done anything to facilitate the flow of water into the sea which is a lie. He did not need to admit it, we all know it was a mistake.

[smutcakes]

Drought 15 months after Army took power- PTP fault

Floods one month after PTP took power-PTP fault.

[halloween]

Obviously you have no idea of Thai politics. To say that Past P.M. Banharn is a very minor player is very naïve. It was a coalition Government and Banharn's party were in control of the dams, Yingluck could not go up against his decision. As an expert and consultant in water engineering having followed and been involved in the King's Master Plan for flood prevention and water conservation since 1982 I am fully aware of the real cause of the flooding and water shortages is caused by non implementation of phase III of the King's Master Plan.

Right, a party which had an absolute majority absolutely needed coalition partners to govern. Even if "Yingluck could not go up against his decision" she was the PM, and despite her weakness, the responsibility is hers.

The admitted fault of not dropping dam level has already been covered.

In your own words from another thread is Abhisit not the PM controlling things?

Yea, right up until 5th August 2011.

[Brit_Doggie]

Oh so it was previous governments fault and not the uinimformed consumers fault knock me down with a wet noodle.

[halloween]

Oh so it was previous governments fault and not the uinimformed consumers fault knock me down with a wet noodle.

Consumers between Jan 2012 and May 2014 were very well informed that they could get more for their rice than it was worth. As a result water usage was well up, and dams were being further depleted (after Yingluk's big dump) as water being used exceeded that collected.

[wwest5829]

Hmm, OK, but what does the accused mismanage the of water in 2012 have to do with the current water shortage? I am truly a little confused on that point.

The storage dams were full in Jan 2012. Yingluk via her minister, ordered the dam levels lowered to the low operating curve rather than the higher curve between Jan and Jul 2012. From Oct 2012 to now, dam levels have been dropping steadily, never getting back to the lower curve, because of low rainfall and high demand.

If she hadn't ordered dropping to the lower curve and used the higher, there would have been an EXTRA 7.5 billion CM in the 2 largest storage dams alone.

These dams are multi purpose, the 2 major purposes being storage and flood prevention. She ordered flood prevention to be the major priority (because her government had been blamed for worsening the 2011 flood) at a time when floods were increasingly unlikely and when drought storage should have been the prime concern.

Yes, I saw the point concerning 2012. My confusion is what that has to do with 2015? Is there not a three year gap? To blame a 3 year gap in the rainfall to the administration decision of 2012 seems to me, to be holding any administration responsible for natural rainfall or the lack thereof. We have both read the weather forecasts over time. I find there can be a substantial difference in forecasts and reality. To hold the gov't solely responsible, it seems to me, to leave something wanting in reasoning.

[smutcakes]

Oh so it was previous governments fault and not the uinimformed consumers fault knock me down with a wet noodle.

Consumers between Jan 2012 and May 2014 were very well informed that they could get more for their rice than it was worth. As a result water usage was well up, and dams were being further depleted (after Yingluk's big dump) as water being used exceeded that collected.

Or the ever expanding BKK and the lower provinces could need more and more water to feed it.....

[Red Queen]

PM Prayut blames previous governments for water shortage

Of course he does,

Edited July 21, 2015 by Red Queen

[Down the rabbit hole]

Yes, I saw the point concerning 2012. My confusion is what that has to do with 2015? Is there not a three year gap? To blame a 3 year gap in the rainfall to the administration decision of 2012 seems to me, to be holding any administration responsible for natural rainfall or the lack thereof. We have both read the weather forecasts over time. I find there can be a substantial difference in forecasts and reality. To hold the gov't solely responsible, it seems to me, to leave something wanting in reasoning.

You and me both.

Dear old Halloween. first among the rabid bite-your-leg Thaksin-haters. According to him, if you get bitten by a mosquito, there'll be a Shianawatra behind it somewhere. Reasoning not their strong suit, reason not exactly their thing if you know what I mean.

It would be almost charming if it wasn't so tragic. Some expats lose their wits after coming to Thailand, some lose them before.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Down the rabbit hole

[halloween]

Yes, I saw the point concerning 2012. My confusion is what that has to do with 2015? Is there not a three year gap? To blame a 3 year gap in the rainfall to the administration decision of 2012 seems to me, to be holding any administration responsible for natural rainfall or the lack thereof. We have both read the weather forecasts over time. I find there can be a substantial difference in forecasts and reality. To hold the gov't solely responsible, it seems to me, to leave something wanting in reasoning.

You and me both.

Dear old Halloween. first among the rabid bite-your-leg Thaksin-haters. According to him, if you get bitten by a mosquito, there'll be a Shianawatra behind it somewhere. Reasoning not their strong suit, reason not exactly their thing if you know what I mean.

It would be almost charming if it wasn't so tragic. Some expats lose their wits after coming to Thailand, some lose them before.

Do you have anything to add, other than name-calling and slurs?

To answer you and wwest, if 7 billion CM of water hadn't been dumped by Yingluk's government, a few years of low rainfall, even with higher usage, would not have seen the dams at their current critically low levels. The higher and lower operating curves should give you an idea where the levels would be even with the steady decline since Oct 2012.

[taff33]

If he didn't take over the country he wouldn't have to "take the brunt"for it,it's tough at the top.

[mojorison]

As this is a major concern to you, could you put it into perspective by a comparison of the area of golf courses in Thailand compared to rice farms? Some of us enjoy a belly laugh.

I don't understand your comment. Do you agree or not? Sounds like you disagree, and yet your point seems to support his statement.

I was pointing out it is a nit-pick. Quite possibly golf courses use more water per unit area, but the total area is miniscule in comparison. Is that difficult to grasp?

Thank you for explaining your (cryptic) comment. Size is irrelevant. There is a conflict of interest. End.

[halloween]

Thank you for explaining your (cryptic) comment. Size is irrelevant. There is a conflict of interest. End.

Size is irrelevant. Get told that a lot?

[Fat Haggis]

The size of these courses is indeed minuscule compared to the areas of farmland, I don't think it's nitpicking at all, it's highlighting that watering golf courses as small as they are uses the same amounts of water as pointed out earlier, one is a necessity the other a luxury, proves that priorities are all wrong and it's also a HUGE conflict of interest.

You've a cheek to go on about slurs, too, when you ended your last post with one!!

Don't you know it's not the size that counts, but the education behind it?

Edited July 21, 2015 by Fat Haggis

[halloween]

The size of these courses is indeed minuscule compared to the areas of farmland, I don't think it's nitpicking at all, it's highlighting that watering golf courses as small as they are uses the same amounts of water as pointed out earlier, one is a necessity the other a luxury, proves that priorities are all wrong and it's also a HUGE conflict of interest.

You've a cheek to go on about slurs, too, when you ended your last post with one!!

Don't you know it's not the size that counts, but the education behind it?

I have already agreed that watering golf courses along with a lot of other activities are a waste when water is in short supply. Apparently you can't see that it is just a cheap shot with little substance, the volume of water being insignificant compared to that wasted on a crop worth almost nothing. Oh well.

There is also quite a difference between name-calling and light-hearted implication. Now if had actually mentioned a golfer's pencil.......

[Tywais]

Troll post removed.

[Thai at Heart]

Hmm, OK, but what does the accused mismanage the of water in 2012 have to do with the current water shortage? I am truly a little confused on that point.

The storage dams were full in Jan 2012. Yingluk via her minister, ordered the dam levels lowered to the low operating curve rather than the higher curve between Jan and Jul 2012. From Oct 2012 to now, dam levels have been dropping steadily, never getting back to the lower curve, because of low rainfall and high demand.

If she hadn't ordered dropping to the lower curve and used the higher, there would have been an EXTRA 7.5 billion CM in the 2 largest storage dams alone.

These dams are multi purpose, the 2 major purposes being storage and flood prevention. She ordered flood prevention to be the major priority (because her government had been blamed for worsening the 2011 flood) at a time when floods were increasingly unlikely and when drought storage should have been the prime concern.

As I have said. Can't have it both ways. Agriculture or risk of flooding. That is the simple trade off

[lvr181]

Hmm, OK, but what does the accused mismanage the of water in 2012 have to do with the current water shortage? I am truly a little confused on that point.

The storage dams were full in Jan 2012. Yingluk via her minister, ordered the dam levels lowered to the low operating curve rather than the higher curve between Jan and Jul 2012. From Oct 2012 to now, dam levels have been dropping steadily, never getting back to the lower curve, because of low rainfall and high demand.

If she hadn't ordered dropping to the lower curve and used the higher, there would have been an EXTRA 7.5 billion CM in the 2 largest storage dams alone.

These dams are multi purpose, the 2 major purposes being storage and flood prevention. She ordered flood prevention to be the major priority (because her government had been blamed for worsening the 2011 flood) at a time when floods were increasingly unlikely and when drought storage should have been the prime concern.

As I have said. Can't have it both ways. Agriculture or risk of flooding. That is the simple trade off

It may seem that black or white to some, but it is how it's MANAGED that is important.

[Yunla]

Oh so it was previous governments fault and not the uinimformed consumers fault knock me down with a wet noodle.

Consumers between Jan 2012 and May 2014 were very well informed that they could get more for their rice than it was worth. As a result water usage was well up, and dams were being further depleted (after Yingluk's big dump) as water being used exceeded that collected.

I agree with you about rice-farmers being essentially told that alchemy had finally been perfected, and that it was suddenly possible to turn base materials into gold, and how this could only have one possible outcome on the use of water.

I don't really think that pointing accusatory fingers back in time achieves anything much, except in the case of clear criminal wrongdoing, but at the same time it seems obvious to me that water mismanagement and a lack of business flexibility is a long-term problem, not confined to any of the recent governments. Things like water management and the long-term viability of any business product, have to be viewed beyond the annual fluctuations, and mapped in terms of future decades, centuries. The key to all business success is flexibility, adaptability, and most importantly the willingness to swallow one's pride and admit that a favourite traditional business model is perhaps not really the best option today.

In many ways, to be ashamed of failure is the wrong attitude, it is far better to see past losses as a gift of knowledge, a golden opportunity to change to a new business model that may be phenomenally successful in the future. People will see a business have amazing success in the future and ask how they did it, and they will reply, "we failed a lot."

A good business is one that learns from their past failures, and wears those failures on their sleeve with pride, as they adapt in a new future direction that avoids those areas they now know to be pitfalls. So the blame-game in the OP is the wrong perspective, this is not a blame issue, this is a learning issue.

[halloween]

Hmm, OK, but what does the accused mismanage the of water in 2012 have to do with the current water shortage? I am truly a little confused on that point.

The storage dams were full in Jan 2012. Yingluk via her minister, ordered the dam levels lowered to the low operating curve rather than the higher curve between Jan and Jul 2012. From Oct 2012 to now, dam levels have been dropping steadily, never getting back to the lower curve, because of low rainfall and high demand.

If she hadn't ordered dropping to the lower curve and used the higher, there would have been an EXTRA 7.5 billion CM in the 2 largest storage dams alone.

These dams are multi purpose, the 2 major purposes being storage and flood prevention. She ordered flood prevention to be the major priority (because her government had been blamed for worsening the 2011 flood) at a time when floods were increasingly unlikely and when drought storage should have been the prime concern.

As I have said. Can't have it both ways. Agriculture or risk of flooding. That is the simple trade off

Yes, you said it before, which doesn't make it right. If I accept the either/or scenario, why set the dams to anti-flood mode while agriculture was encouraged by price to heavy usage?

[mojorison]

Thank you for explaining your (cryptic) comment. Size is irrelevant. There is a conflict of interest. End.

Size is irrelevant. Get told that a lot?

Yeah, in addition to the penis reduction banner ads.

[LannaGuy]

I think Thaksin stole the water! it's all his fault that Lucifer!

Edited July 22, 2015 by LannaGuy

[geriatrickid]

He's at least partly right, but manipulating the water management was nothing unique to the previous government. What is beyond doubt is that the rice scheme increased the water consumption dramatically. With several years of moderate rainfall, it was only a question of when, rather than if, a problem would arise. Still, the main problem is the lack of rain.

How about a does of the painful truth?

Do you know what uses more water that rice farmers?

Do you know what uses more pesticides than rice farmers?

GOLF COURSES

Average amount of pesticides used per acre, per year, on golf courses - 8.2 KG

Average amount of pesticides used, per acre, per year, in agriculture - 2.1 kg

Amount of water used by 60,000 villagers in Thailand, on average, per day- 6500 cu. m

Amount of water used by one golf course in Thailand, on average, per day - 6500 cu. m.

Sources: Pesticides: “EcoMall: A Greener Golf Course, 2004;” Thailand: U.K. Sports Turf Research Institute

Guess how many golf courses the Thai military owns and operates. Why does an impoverished country like Thailand have military operated golf courses? Is it to provide the 2000+ generals something to do?

Why hasn't anyone ever asked why the Thai Army is taking large amounts of water for a golf course in drought stricken Surin?

Instead of looking for scapegoats, why not take action now and stop using the water for golf courses?

As this is a major concern to you, could you put it into perspective by a comparison of the area of golf courses in Thailand compared to rice farms? Some of us enjoy a belly laugh.

What is your question?

It seems that you are quick to blame the former civilian government for the water shortage, but you are unable to grasp that the golf courses operated by the Thai military are a contributing factor to the water shortage. If the General was serious about the water crisis, he would close the golf courses in the drought stricken regions.