UN approves accreditation for Palestinian Return Center

[webfact]

UN approves accreditation for Palestinian Return Center
By EDITH M. LEDERER

UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The United Nations approved U.N. accreditation Monday for the London-based Palestinian Return Center in a defeat for Israel which claims the organization is affiliated with Hamas and "openly promotes terrorism."

The center, which describes itself as an independent consultancy dedicated to find a solution for the Palestinian refugees in accordance with international law, has denied the Israeli allegations. It announced last Friday that it was starting legal action against Israel's U.N. Mission for alleged defamation.

Last month, the U.N. committee that accredits non-governmental organizations, or NGOs, recommended that the center's application be approved. But Israel circulated a resolution, co-sponsored by the United States, Australia and Canada, to the committee's parent body, the 54-member Economic and Social Council known as ECOSOC, opposing the application for consultative status.

In Monday's vote, 13 countries supported Israel's resolution, 16 were opposed and 18 abstained, which meant the resolution was defeated and the application was approved.

Israel's Deputy U.N. Ambassador David Roet said before the vote that the center "is not what it claims to be."

Roet said world media sources, intelligence agencies and independent researchers have cited numerous links between the center and Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip. He called the center "an essential part of the Hamas network in Europe," that recruits, radicalizes and encourages operatives to take up arms against Israel.

The center says it has been operating in Britain and Europe since 1966 and specializes "in the research, analysis, and monitor of issues pertaining to the dispersed Palestinians and their internationally recognized legal right to return." It says it has worked with different British governments and members of Parliament from all parties.

U.S. Deputy U.N. Ambassador Michele Sisson said the center only applied for consultative status a year ago and the United States has "serious concerns" about its background and activities that haven't been answered.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-07-21

[halloween]

Could they open a few branches in Oz?

[Seastallion]

I hope the defamation case succeeds. Israel is all too fond of making nasty allegations that have no basis in fact and they need to be reigned in.

[Steely Dan]

The PRC members are busy deleting tweets displaying blood libel and antisemitism. Not that anybody in the UN would notice as the entire organization has become tarnished by its ideologically motivated bias.

http://blog.unwatch.org/index.php/2015/07/20/hamas-linked-uk-group-celebrated-kidnapping-of-teens-today-set-to-win-un-status/

They don't even lie well, not that the truth has any currency whatsoever with some of our esteemed members.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Steely Dan

[samthefish]

Israelis murdered and stole long before there was Hamas, PLO or Hezbollah. Sometimes it seems people forget why the things are the way they are.

[JingerBen]

Things are beginning to change between Israel and Palestine now the Palestinians are gaining access to diplomatic alternatives to violence.

Boycott Divest and Sanction is growing even among moderate Israelis who want to put an end to the land grabs, killing, and expulsion of their neighbours.

[Somtamnication]

Can't wait for the Israeli apologists to comment.

[Ulysses G.]

Israelis murdered and stole long before there was Hamas, PLO or Hezbollah. Sometimes it seems people forget why the things are the way they are.

Arabs murdered and stole long before the Jews finally responded in kind. In fact, the Arabs are the ones that started the violence in the first place. Indeed, sometimes it seems people forget why the things are the way they are.

*From late 1919, Arab attacks on Jewish settlements became more frequent and relentless, particularly in the Jordan Valley and the Galilee."2

* "As early as 1920, Palestine Arab opposition to Zionism and desire for self-government led to a threat to public security. ... three days of rioting in Jerusalem, in which Arab mobs fell upon Jews with sticks, stones and knives. The Arab Police either adopted a passive attitude or joined in the riots.

http://www.middleeastpiece.com/palestinianviolence.html

[Ulysses G.]

Boycott Divest and Sanction is growing even among moderate Israelis who want to put an end to the land grabs, killing, and expulsion of their neighbours.

BDS has been a dismal failure. The Israeli economy has doubled in size in the period BDS has been in operation.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1408/the_failures_of_the_israel_boycotters

http://ukmediawatch.org/2015/06/19/the-bds-movement-is-failing-part-1/

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/david-s-harp/.premium-1.599763

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/BDS-in-South-Africa-an-abject-failure-374142

[Seastallion]

Israelis murdered and stole long before there was Hamas, PLO or Hezbollah. Sometimes it seems people forget why the things are the way they are.

* "As early as 1920, Palestine Arab opposition to Zionism and desire for self-government led to a threat to public security. ... three days of rioting in Jerusalem, in which Arab mobs fell upon Jews with sticks, stones and knives. The Arab Police either adopted a passive attitude or joined in the riots.

http://www.middleeastpiece.com/palestinianviolence.html

Hmmm..so a source you quote and obviously approve of mentions the PALESTINIAN Arabs of 1920. You often argue that there was no such thing before much more recent history.

The source also admits to their objection to ZIONIST incursion, which was obviously happening well before 1947.

Awkward.

[Ulysses G.]

You are making up things again. I have never argued any such thing. The AREA was called Palestine and they were Arabs, but they did not have their own country or government. The land was not theirs. They were murdering innocent Jewish families who wanted to buy their own land and be left in peace. I could not care less about how you try to justify such terrorism..There were Jews living there continuously, long before them, that had just as much right to their own land as they did. .

Edited July 21, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Neurath]

There were lots of non-Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel. They owned it before 1949. There were lots of Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel and they owned it before 1949.

In Canada and New Zealand and Australia there's a lot of often acrimonious of debate about land rights for indigenous people - I do wonder whether the claim to land in Israel is properly characterized as debate about land rights and whether the same claim has the same force for the indigenous peoples in all these places?

[arjunadawn]

You are making up things again. I have never argued any such thing. The AREA was called Palestine and they were Arabs, but they did not have their own country or government. The land was not theirs. They were murdering innocent Jewish families who wanted to buy their own land and be left in peace. I could not care less about how you try to justify such terrorism..There were Jews living there continuously, long before them, that had just as much right to their own land as they did. .

The fact you would have to defend the absurd sleight of hand regarding "Palestinians" and Palestinians is ridiculous. It is always regrettable when, under the cover of intelligent conversation, one party sneaks in fallacy.

Was there never a single Arab in this region at all one would still be required, if in discussion, to perhaps note the difference between oh, lets say, a christian or Jew, by defining Palestinian Christian or Palestinian Jew as a subject. The region of course has been named Palestine for a very long time. In so doing neither label- Palestinian Christian or Palestinian Jew- suggests remotely a state called Palestinian ever existed. Of course, there never was and no chronicle from any state actor in history suggests otherwise, islamic and other alike.

Of course other posters know this but seizing words that, at first glace, create smoke, they then tried to built fire; there is none.

[Ulysses G.]

There were lots of non-Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel. They owned it before 1949. There were lots of Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel and they owned it before 1949.

In Canada and New Zealand and Australia there's a lot of often acrimonious of debate about land rights for indigenous people - I do wonder whether the claim to land in Israel is properly characterized as debate about land rights and whether the same claim has the same force for the indigenous peoples in all these places?

Jews ARE the indigenous people in the area called Palestine. They have been living there continuously for over 3,000 years. There were people before them that have died out over time and people after them that are still around and had a larger population at one time.

[BKKBobby]

There were lots of non-Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel. They owned it before 1949. There were lots of Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel and they owned it before 1949.

In Canada and New Zealand and Australia there's a lot of often acrimonious of debate about land rights for indigenous people - I do wonder whether the claim to land in Israel is properly characterized as debate about land rights and whether the same claim has the same force for the indigenous peoples in all these places?

Jews ARE the indigenous people in the area called Palestine. They have been living there continuously for over 3,000 years. There were people before them that have died out over time and people after them that are still around and had a larger population at one time.

Yeah, and the Angles and the Saxons ARE the indigenous people in the area that is called northern Germany.

A small amount of Angles and Saxons surely remained in Germany and stayed continuosly until this day.

The rest moved on, as you probably know.

Im just trying to point out that it is silly to base claims on your argument.

Edited July 21, 2015 by BKKBobby

[Ulysses G.]

Yeah, and the Angles and the Saxons ARE the indigenous people in the area that is called northern Germany.

Np one is trying to "push them into the sea".

[Johpa]

There were lots of non-Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel. They owned it before 1949. There were lots of Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel and they owned it before 1949.

In Canada and New Zealand and Australia there's a lot of often acrimonious of debate about land rights for indigenous people - I do wonder whether the claim to land in Israel is properly characterized as debate about land rights and whether the same claim has the same force for the indigenous peoples in all these places?

I am sorry, but the brutal tides of history that lead to displacements of people, migrations, and the like, apparently are not equally applicable to all people. And within the confines of the feckless United Nations, Jews are not favored in that regard, and are asked to turn and reverse the tides of history, a futile endeavor that will lead only to further suffering of all sides. But don't dare call it antisemitism as there are indeed legitimate reasons to criticize Israeli policies and we all know that amongst the church choir led by the likes of Desmond Tutu, antisemitism and criticism of Israeli policies are mutually exclusive.

[TooPoopedToPop]

There were lots of non-Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel. They owned it before 1949. There were lots of Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel and they owned it before 1949.

In Canada and New Zealand and Australia there's a lot of often acrimonious of debate about land rights for indigenous people - I do wonder whether the claim to land in Israel is properly characterized as debate about land rights and whether the same claim has the same force for the indigenous peoples in all these places?

I am sorry, but the brutal tides of history that lead to displacements of people, migrations, and the like, apparently are not equally applicable to all people. And within the confines of the feckless United Nations, Jews are not favored in that regard, and are asked to turn and reverse the tides of history, a futile endeavor that will lead only to further suffering of all sides. But don't dare call it antisemitism as there are indeed legitimate reasons to criticize Israeli policies and we all know that amongst the church choir led by the likes of Desmond Tutu, antisemitism and criticism of Israeli policies are mutually exclusive.

Is the United Nations Human Rights Council "feckless" for condemning Israel 46 times?

To think so is either willful ignorance or spreading propaganda.

[samthefish]

You are making up things again. I have never argued any such thing. The AREA was called Palestine and they were Arabs, but they did not have their own country or government. The land was not theirs. They were murdering innocent Jewish families who wanted to buy their own land and be left in peace. I could not care less about how you try to justify such terrorism..There were Jews living there continuously, long before them, that had just as much right to their own land as they did. .

So why they bother to give casinos to native americans? IT WASN'T THEIR LAND!! No big government tiipii anywhere!!!

[Neurath]

There were lots of non-Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel. They owned it before 1949. There were lots of Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel and they owned it before 1949.

In Canada and New Zealand and Australia there's a lot of often acrimonious of debate about land rights for indigenous people - I do wonder whether the claim to land in Israel is properly characterized as debate about land rights and whether the same claim has the same force for the indigenous peoples in all these places?

Jews ARE the indigenous people in the area called Palestine. They have been living there continuously for over 3,000 years. There were people before them that have died out over time and people after them that are still around and had a larger population at one time.

Not exclusively. Other peoples there also. But anyway, if the claim to exclusive ownership in lands not covered by 1949 (eg West Bank) is the status of being indigenous and if being indigenous brings with it a right of return then I suppose the same principle and right should operate with regard to, say, Australian Aboriginies who have been living in that dark continent continuously for over 40,000 years. I do agree that the dispossession of indigenous peoples is a shameful affair.

[Johpa]

Is the United Nations Human Rights Council "feckless" for condemning Israel 46 times?

To think so is either willful ignorance or spreading propaganda.

Yea, about the only thing that the UN does these days is condemn Israel. In the corporate controlled modern world, the UN has become quite feckless and increasingly irrelevant. I do not think that my opinion on the matter is either willfully ignorant nor propagandistic in the least. But for many people condemning Israel has become their raison d'être, their mantra that connects them into a sense of community otherwise lacking in their modern world lacking other forms of congregation. And such people might see the UN as being something other than feckless. So perhaps we disagree on the matter of the UN, and that is OK with me. I maintain close friendships with people with whom I have far more substantive disagreements.

[Ulysses G.]

Is the United Nations Human Rights Council "feckless" for condemning Israel 46 times?

The United Nations Human Rights Council is completely corrupt and hypocritical.

http://triblive.com/opinion/editorials/8754818-74/israel-watch-health#axzz3gaDHMlXH

[dexterm]

There were lots of non-Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel. They owned it before 1949. There were lots of Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel and they owned it before 1949.

In Canada and New Zealand and Australia there's a lot of often acrimonious of debate about land rights for indigenous people - I do wonder whether the claim to land in Israel is properly characterized as debate about land rights and whether the same claim has the same force for the indigenous peoples in all these places?

Jews ARE the indigenous people in the area called Palestine. They have been living there continuously for over 3,000 years. There were people before them that have died out over time and people after them that are still around and had a larger population at one time.

Judaism is a religion not a race. Peoples of many different races practice Judaism or call themselves Jews. You would have us believe that peoples who were living in Palestine before the rise of Judaism such as Canaanites and Philistines conveniently disappeared.

Despite the usual history mythologizing, semantic gymnastics to explain how there is no such thing as a Palestinian and that even though they formed 90% of the population they were somehow invisible to early Zionist immigrants, and logical contortions appealing to the supernatural that God gave an empty parcel of land in the cradle of civilization solely to Jews and that today's existing Palestinian residents were merely the caretakers on non renewable annual leases awaiting their true masters who had been absent for 2,000 years but incredibly in an undiluted lineage still held the original title deeds, even though they have just stepped off a plane from New York, Melbourne or Manchester and have never set eyes on the place before. Believe it or not, folks, the above forms the basis of Zionism.

Zionists are illegal immigrants to Palestine. The fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence in 1948 were born outside Palestine, mainly in Eastern Europe speaks volumes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Signatories_of_the_Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence

All very interesting school debating society stuff but it doesn't count in the real world. Palestinians aren't concerned whether their ancestors only came from a region called Palestine or a country called Palestine.They know their suffering under Israeli occupation is real enough.

What does count is the 70% of the world's countries (and more to come) do recognize Palestine. And the UN recognition in the OP adds further weight to the growing reality.

The bottom line for all Palestinian delegitimizers is this: even if you think there was was never a country called Palestine, well think again...because there is one now! And just like Israelis they are not going away. So get over it, and start thinking towards the future rather than a spurious past.

If Israelis don't get serious soon about discussing a just peace in a 2 state solution, they will find themselves in a one state solution, having to absorb 4.5 Palestinians, and losing any hope of a state with a predominantly Jewish character.

[JingerBen]

There were lots of non-Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel. They owned it before 1949. There were lots of Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel and they owned it before 1949.

In Canada and New Zealand and Australia there's a lot of often acrimonious of debate about land rights for indigenous people - I do wonder whether the claim to land in Israel is properly characterized as debate about land rights and whether the same claim has the same force for the indigenous peoples in all these places?

Jews ARE the indigenous people in the area called Palestine. They have been living there continuously for over 3,000 years. There were people before them that have died out over time and people after them that are still around and had a larger population at one time.

Judaism is a religion not a race. Peoples of many different races practice Judaism or call themselves Jews. You would have us believe that peoples who were living in Palestine before the rise of Judaism such as Canaanites and Philistines conveniently disappeared.

Despite the usual history mythologizing, semantic gymnastics to explain how there is no such thing as a Palestinian and that even though they formed 90% of the population they were somehow invisible to early Zionist immigrants, and logical contortions appealing to the supernatural that God gave an empty parcel of land in the cradle of civilization solely to Jews and that today's existing Palestinian residents were merely the caretakers on non renewable annual leases awaiting their true masters who had been absent for 2,000 years but incredibly in an undiluted lineage still held the original title deeds, even though they have just stepped off a plane from New York, Melbourne or Manchester and have never set eyes on the place before. Believe it or not, folks, the above forms the basis of Zionism.

Zionists are illegal immigrants to Palestine. The fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence in 1948 were born outside Palestine, mainly in Eastern Europe speaks volumes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Signatories_of_the_Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence

All very interesting school debating society stuff but it doesn't count in the real world. Palestinians aren't concerned whether their ancestors only came from a region called Palestine or a country called Palestine.They know their suffering under Israeli occupation is real enough.

What does count is the 70% of the world's countries (and more to come) do recognize Palestine. And the UN recognition in the OP adds further weight to the growing reality.

The bottom line for all Palestinian delegitimizers is this: even if you think there was was never a country called Palestine, well think again...because there is one now! And just like Israelis they are not going away. So get over it, and start thinking towards the future rather than a spurious past.

If Israelis don't get serious soon about discussing a just peace in a 2 state solution, they will find themselves in a one state solution, having to absorb 4.5 Palestinians, and losing any hope of a state with a predominantly Jewish character.

Exceptionally good post.

It's like a fresh breeze that blows away the fog of Zionist propaganda.

[ggold]

There were lots of non-Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel. They owned it before 1949. There were lots of Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel and they owned it before 1949.

In Canada and New Zealand and Australia there's a lot of often acrimonious of debate about land rights for indigenous people - I do wonder whether the claim to land in Israel is properly characterized as debate about land rights and whether the same claim has the same force for the indigenous peoples in all these places?

Jews ARE the indigenous people in the area called Palestine. They have been living there continuously for over 3,000 years. There were people before them that have died out over time and people after them that are still around and had a larger population at one time.

Judaism is a religion not a race. Peoples of many different races practice Judaism or call themselves Jews. You would have us believe that peoples who were living in Palestine before the rise of Judaism such as Canaanites and Philistines conveniently disappeared.

Despite the usual history mythologizing, semantic gymnastics to explain how there is no such thing as a Palestinian and that even though they formed 90% of the population they were somehow invisible to early Zionist immigrants, and logical contortions appealing to the supernatural that God gave an empty parcel of land in the cradle of civilization solely to Jews and that today's existing Palestinian residents were merely the caretakers on non renewable annual leases awaiting their true masters who had been absent for 2,000 years but incredibly in an undiluted lineage still held the original title deeds, even though they have just stepped off a plane from New York, Melbourne or Manchester and have never set eyes on the place before. Believe it or not, folks, the above forms the basis of Zionism.

Zionists are illegal immigrants to Palestine. The fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence in 1948 were born outside Palestine, mainly in Eastern Europe speaks volumes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Signatories_of_the_Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence

All very interesting school debating society stuff but it doesn't count in the real world. Palestinians aren't concerned whether their ancestors only came from a region called Palestine or a country called Palestine.They know their suffering under Israeli occupation is real enough.

What does count is the 70% of the world's countries (and more to come) do recognize Palestine. And the UN recognition in the OP adds further weight to the growing reality.

The bottom line for all Palestinian delegitimizers is this: even if you think there was was never a country called Palestine, well think again...because there is one now! And just like Israelis they are not going away. So get over it, and start thinking towards the future rather than a spurious past.

If Israelis don't get serious soon about discussing a just peace in a 2 state solution, they will find themselves in a one state solution, having to absorb 4.5 Palestinians, and losing any hope of a state with a predominantly Jewish character.

Maybe you could show me on a Map where this Palestinian state is, I looked in an Atlas and I can't find it! The only reason the Palestinians lot hasn't got better, is Abbas. If the PA had made infrastructure a priority rather than maintaning the place as a refugee camp there might have been peace.

As much as Netanyahu deosn't want to talk peace, abbas doesn't want to talk peace either. But there will never be a one state solution. Israel can maintain the curent situation for ever.

I read somewhere that about 30% of gazans want to leave gaza, they have had enough of Hamas, the majority of west bank arabs dislike the PA and it's corrupt ways. Some even want Israeli law in the west bank. So I am not so sure those arabs are there to stay

Now I know you can say the same about Israeli society being divided, But the point is Israel has elections. There has not been an election in the west bank for a while, Abbas refused to call elections when they were due.

So realisticly untill there is a democratic process for the arabs to choose a better leader who does Israel talk to. They voted for Hamas in Gaza, look what it got them. The Arabs need to make some changes if they hope to have peace.

All this delegitamising is not going to work, The world is not going to vote Israel out of existance. The Arabs however may just make the wrong choices yet again and become irrelevant.

The game has changed, Iran and Saudi Arabia are vying for influence in the reagon. The moderate arab nations are going to need Israels help, like it or not! The West bank Arabs are a problem. Hamas talking to Saudi Arabia, Iran is not happy about this.

So things are changing, This problem will be resolved, but not how Abbas wants. But for the next few years plus the Arabs will have their hands full with ISIS etc. The Palestinains become less of an issue, especially if Abbas shows any resistance to peace. The old addage that the palestinian question is the cuase of the current ME problems is starting to look thin with ISIS on the rampage, even getting a toe hold in Gaza.

I'm sure Israel would allow Egypt to clear out Gaza! Would a more moderate Arab block of nations even agree that parts of the west bank and its arab population be absorbed into Jordan, with finacial assistance from the oil states?

You are right Israel is here to stay, But I'll wait and see if there ever will be a palestinian state, not that I'm against such a state but the arabs at the moment doen't look like they want to talk peace. Abbas is actually helping the Israeli cause by not persuing peace, but rather trying to delegitimise Israel instead.

As much as Israel might suffer from such a move, it will effect the west bank Arabs as much. Where will the Arabs work if not in Israel no jobs no work, yet again Abbas shoots himself in the foot. So maybe it is just as well the BDS movement has had very little success.

All it shows is the Arabs only know how to destroy rather than build anything of good. Hamas in Gaza, ISIS in the levant, Boko Haram etc etc.

[BKKBobby]

There were lots of non-Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel. They owned it before 1949. There were lots of Jewish people who owned land and houses and businesses in what is now Israel and they owned it before 1949.

In Canada and New Zealand and Australia there's a lot of often acrimonious of debate about land rights for indigenous people - I do wonder whether the claim to land in Israel is properly characterized as debate about land rights and whether the same claim has the same force for the indigenous peoples in all these places?

Jews ARE the indigenous people in the area called Palestine. They have been living there continuously for over 3,000 years. There were people before them that have died out over time and people after them that are still around and had a larger population at one time.

Judaism is a religion not a race. Peoples of many different races practice Judaism or call themselves Jews. You would have us believe that peoples who were living in Palestine before the rise of Judaism such as Canaanites and Philistines conveniently disappeared.

Despite the usual history mythologizing, semantic gymnastics to explain how there is no such thing as a Palestinian and that even though they formed 90% of the population they were somehow invisible to early Zionist immigrants, and logical contortions appealing to the supernatural that God gave an empty parcel of land in the cradle of civilization solely to Jews and that today's existing Palestinian residents were merely the caretakers on non renewable annual leases awaiting their true masters who had been absent for 2,000 years but incredibly in an undiluted lineage still held the original title deeds, even though they have just stepped off a plane from New York, Melbourne or Manchester and have never set eyes on the place before. Believe it or not, folks, the above forms the basis of Zionism.

Zionists are illegal immigrants to Palestine. The fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence in 1948 were born outside Palestine, mainly in Eastern Europe speaks volumes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Signatories_of_the_Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence

All very interesting school debating society stuff but it doesn't count in the real world. Palestinians aren't concerned whether their ancestors only came from a region called Palestine or a country called Palestine.They know their suffering under Israeli occupation is real enough.

What does count is the 70% of the world's countries (and more to come) do recognize Palestine. And the UN recognition in the OP adds further weight to the growing reality.

The bottom line for all Palestinian delegitimizers is this: even if you think there was was never a country called Palestine, well think again...because there is one now! And just like Israelis they are not going away. So get over it, and start thinking towards the future rather than a spurious past.

If Israelis don't get serious soon about discussing a just peace in a 2 state solution, they will find themselves in a one state solution, having to absorb 4.5 Palestinians, and losing any hope of a state with a predominantly Jewish character.

Maybe you could show me on a Map where this Palestinian state is, I looked in an Atlas and I can't find it! The only reason the Palestinians lot hasn't got better, is Abbas. If the PA had made infrastructure a priority rather than maintaning the place as a refugee camp there might have been peace.

As much as Netanyahu deosn't want to talk peace, abbas doesn't want to talk peace either. But there will never be a one state solution. Israel can maintain the curent situation for ever.

I read somewhere that about 30% of gazans want to leave gaza, they have had enough of Hamas, the majority of west bank arabs dislike the PA and it's corrupt ways. Some even want Israeli law in the west bank. So I am not so sure those arabs are there to stay

Now I know you can say the same about Israeli society being divided, But the point is Israel has elections. There has not been an election in the west bank for a while, Abbas refused to call elections when they were due.

So realisticly untill there is a democratic process for the arabs to choose a better leader who does Israel talk to. They voted for Hamas in Gaza, look what it got them. The Arabs need to make some changes if they hope to have peace.

All this delegitamising is not going to work, The world is not going to vote Israel out of existance. The Arabs however may just make the wrong choices yet again and become irrelevant.

The game has changed, Iran and Saudi Arabia are vying for influence in the reagon. The moderate arab nations are going to need Israels help, like it or not! The West bank Arabs are a problem. Hamas talking to Saudi Arabia, Iran is not happy about this.

So things are changing, This problem will be resolved, but not how Abbas wants. But for the next few years plus the Arabs will have their hands full with ISIS etc. The Palestinains become less of an issue, especially if Abbas shows any resistance to peace. The old addage that the palestinian question is the cuase of the current ME problems is starting to look thin with ISIS on the rampage, even getting a toe hold in Gaza.

I'm sure Israel would allow Egypt to clear out Gaza! Would a more moderate Arab block of nations even agree that parts of the west bank and its arab population be absorbed into Jordan, with finacial assistance from the oil states?

You are right Israel is here to stay, But I'll wait and see if there ever will be a palestinian state, not that I'm against such a state but the arabs at the moment doen't look like they want to talk peace. Abbas is actually helping the Israeli cause by not persuing peace, but rather trying to delegitimise Israel instead.

As much as Israel might suffer from such a move, it will effect the west bank Arabs as much. Where will the Arabs work if not in Israel no jobs no work, yet again Abbas shoots himself in the foot. So maybe it is just as well the BDS movement has had very little success.

All it shows is the Arabs only know how to destroy rather than build anything of good. Hamas in Gaza, ISIS in the levant, Boko Haram etc etc.

The "moderate" Arab countries dont need Israel.

The leaders in the Arab monarchies are pro-American but the populations are anything but pro-West, and well they are not fond of Israel, if we but it that way.

They might use Israel to attack Iran cause they are reluctant to do it themselves, thats it. If they decide on going ahead with that idea. No more no less.

None of the Arab monarchies can do joint actions with the Jewish state of Israel against other muslims. They have to be viewed upon as legitimate in the eyes of their population. Their biggest fear is not ISIS or Iran, its their own population.

If Israel wants to get close with the "moderate" Arab countries, then Israel should resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict. And forget about sending the Palestinians to Jordan, thats a no no. Israel might like the idea (a lot), but no one else.

Edited July 22, 2015 by BKKBobby

[ggold]

Jews ARE the indigenous people in the area called Palestine. They have been living there continuously for over 3,000 years. There were people before them that have died out over time and people after them that are still around and had a larger population at one time.

Judaism is a religion not a race. Peoples of many different races practice Judaism or call themselves Jews. You would have us believe that peoples who were living in Palestine before the rise of Judaism such as Canaanites and Philistines conveniently disappeared.

Despite the usual history mythologizing, semantic gymnastics to explain how there is no such thing as a Palestinian and that even though they formed 90% of the population they were somehow invisible to early Zionist immigrants, and logical contortions appealing to the supernatural that God gave an empty parcel of land in the cradle of civilization solely to Jews and that today's existing Palestinian residents were merely the caretakers on non renewable annual leases awaiting their true masters who had been absent for 2,000 years but incredibly in an undiluted lineage still held the original title deeds, even though they have just stepped off a plane from New York, Melbourne or Manchester and have never set eyes on the place before. Believe it or not, folks, the above forms the basis of Zionism.

Zionists are illegal immigrants to Palestine. The fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence in 1948 were born outside Palestine, mainly in Eastern Europe speaks volumes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Signatories_of_the_Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence

All very interesting school debating society stuff but it doesn't count in the real world. Palestinians aren't concerned whether their ancestors only came from a region called Palestine or a country called Palestine.They know their suffering under Israeli occupation is real enough.

What does count is the 70% of the world's countries (and more to come) do recognize Palestine. And the UN recognition in the OP adds further weight to the growing reality.

The bottom line for all Palestinian delegitimizers is this: even if you think there was was never a country called Palestine, well think again...because there is one now! And just like Israelis they are not going away. So get over it, and start thinking towards the future rather than a spurious past.

If Israelis don't get serious soon about discussing a just peace in a 2 state solution, they will find themselves in a one state solution, having to absorb 4.5 Palestinians, and losing any hope of a state with a predominantly Jewish character.

Maybe you could show me on a Map where this Palestinian state is, I looked in an Atlas and I can't find it! The only reason the Palestinians lot hasn't got better, is Abbas. If the PA had made infrastructure a priority rather than maintaning the place as a refugee camp there might have been peace.

As much as Netanyahu deosn't want to talk peace, abbas doesn't want to talk peace either. But there will never be a one state solution. Israel can maintain the curent situation for ever.

I read somewhere that about 30% of gazans want to leave gaza, they have had enough of Hamas, the majority of west bank arabs dislike the PA and it's corrupt ways. Some even want Israeli law in the west bank. So I am not so sure those arabs are there to stay

Now I know you can say the same about Israeli society being divided, But the point is Israel has elections. There has not been an election in the west bank for a while, Abbas refused to call elections when they were due.

So realisticly untill there is a democratic process for the arabs to choose a better leader who does Israel talk to. They voted for Hamas in Gaza, look what it got them. The Arabs need to make some changes if they hope to have peace.

All this delegitamising is not going to work, The world is not going to vote Israel out of existance. The Arabs however may just make the wrong choices yet again and become irrelevant.

The game has changed, Iran and Saudi Arabia are vying for influence in the reagon. The moderate arab nations are going to need Israels help, like it or not! The West bank Arabs are a problem. Hamas talking to Saudi Arabia, Iran is not happy about this.

So things are changing, This problem will be resolved, but not how Abbas wants. But for the next few years plus the Arabs will have their hands full with ISIS etc. The Palestinains become less of an issue, especially if Abbas shows any resistance to peace. The old addage that the palestinian question is the cuase of the current ME problems is starting to look thin with ISIS on the rampage, even getting a toe hold in Gaza.

I'm sure Israel would allow Egypt to clear out Gaza! Would a more moderate Arab block of nations even agree that parts of the west bank and its arab population be absorbed into Jordan, with finacial assistance from the oil states?

You are right Israel is here to stay, But I'll wait and see if there ever will be a palestinian state, not that I'm against such a state but the arabs at the moment doen't look like they want to talk peace. Abbas is actually helping the Israeli cause by not persuing peace, but rather trying to delegitimise Israel instead.

As much as Israel might suffer from such a move, it will effect the west bank Arabs as much. Where will the Arabs work if not in Israel no jobs no work, yet again Abbas shoots himself in the foot. So maybe it is just as well the BDS movement has had very little success.

All it shows is the Arabs only know how to destroy rather than build anything of good. Hamas in Gaza, ISIS in the levant, Boko Haram etc etc.

The "moderate" Arab countries dont need Israel.

The leaders in the Arab monarchies are pro-American but the populations are anything but pro-West, and well they are not fond of Israel, if we but it that way.

They might use Israel to attack Iran cause they are reluctant to do it themselves, thats it. If they decide on going ahead with that idea. No more no less.

None of the Arab monarchies can do joint actions with the Jewish state of Israel against other muslims. They have to be viewed upon as legitimate in the eyes of their population. Their biggest fear is not ISIS or Iran, its their own population.

If Israel wants to get close with the "moderate" Arab countries, then Israel should resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict. And forget about sending the Palestinians to Jordan, thats a no no. Israel might like the idea (a lot), but no one else.

As I said there is a game change going on. The Arab monarchies are so pro American they are lining up to by Russian Nuclear reactors, Saudi Arabia having signed a deal already.

Thanks to Obama they are not so pro American any more, maybe once Obama is gone there might be improved relations. It was not just Israel that was against the Iran deal. No one is talking of sending Arabs to Jordan. If you read my post I suggested Jordan would take over the territory absorbing the Arabs into Jordan.

That is a possibility, if Abbas refuses to make peace. Again ISIS is the problem the Palestinians are in danger of missing out big time if they don't want peace.

I would say while they may worry about their own civilians, they are far more worried about ISIS, Or do you think the people in parts or Iraq and Syria are having a good time under ISIS control?

Even the civilian populations won't be immune from ISIS madness. So to suggest ISIS is not the fear is wrong! This is going to be about Shia v Sunni, Iran v Saudi Arabia and other moderate states.

Even Hamas and the PA are in the sights of ISIS.

Nothing to fear there then!

[BKKBobby]

Jews ARE the indigenous people in the area called Palestine. They have been living there continuously for over 3,000 years. There were people before them that have died out over time and people after them that are still around and had a larger population at one time.

Judaism is a religion not a race. Peoples of many different races practice Judaism or call themselves Jews. You would have us believe that peoples who were living in Palestine before the rise of Judaism such as Canaanites and Philistines conveniently disappeared.

Despite the usual history mythologizing, semantic gymnastics to explain how there is no such thing as a Palestinian and that even though they formed 90% of the population they were somehow invisible to early Zionist immigrants, and logical contortions appealing to the supernatural that God gave an empty parcel of land in the cradle of civilization solely to Jews and that today's existing Palestinian residents were merely the caretakers on non renewable annual leases awaiting their true masters who had been absent for 2,000 years but incredibly in an undiluted lineage still held the original title deeds, even though they have just stepped off a plane from New York, Melbourne or Manchester and have never set eyes on the place before. Believe it or not, folks, the above forms the basis of Zionism.

Zionists are illegal immigrants to Palestine. The fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence in 1948 were born outside Palestine, mainly in Eastern Europe speaks volumes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Signatories_of_the_Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence

All very interesting school debating society stuff but it doesn't count in the real world. Palestinians aren't concerned whether their ancestors only came from a region called Palestine or a country called Palestine.They know their suffering under Israeli occupation is real enough.

What does count is the 70% of the world's countries (and more to come) do recognize Palestine. And the UN recognition in the OP adds further weight to the growing reality.

The bottom line for all Palestinian delegitimizers is this: even if you think there was was never a country called Palestine, well think again...because there is one now! And just like Israelis they are not going away. So get over it, and start thinking towards the future rather than a spurious past.

If Israelis don't get serious soon about discussing a just peace in a 2 state solution, they will find themselves in a one state solution, having to absorb 4.5 Palestinians, and losing any hope of a state with a predominantly Jewish character.

Maybe you could show me on a Map where this Palestinian state is, I looked in an Atlas and I can't find it! The only reason the Palestinians lot hasn't got better, is Abbas. If the PA had made infrastructure a priority rather than maintaning the place as a refugee camp there might have been peace.

As much as Netanyahu deosn't want to talk peace, abbas doesn't want to talk peace either. But there will never be a one state solution. Israel can maintain the curent situation for ever.

I read somewhere that about 30% of gazans want to leave gaza, they have had enough of Hamas, the majority of west bank arabs dislike the PA and it's corrupt ways. Some even want Israeli law in the west bank. So I am not so sure those arabs are there to stay

Now I know you can say the same about Israeli society being divided, But the point is Israel has elections. There has not been an election in the west bank for a while, Abbas refused to call elections when they were due.

So realisticly untill there is a democratic process for the arabs to choose a better leader who does Israel talk to. They voted for Hamas in Gaza, look what it got them. The Arabs need to make some changes if they hope to have peace.

All this delegitamising is not going to work, The world is not going to vote Israel out of existance. The Arabs however may just make the wrong choices yet again and become irrelevant.

The game has changed, Iran and Saudi Arabia are vying for influence in the reagon. The moderate arab nations are going to need Israels help, like it or not! The West bank Arabs are a problem. Hamas talking to Saudi Arabia, Iran is not happy about this.

So things are changing, This problem will be resolved, but not how Abbas wants. But for the next few years plus the Arabs will have their hands full with ISIS etc. The Palestinains become less of an issue, especially if Abbas shows any resistance to peace. The old addage that the palestinian question is the cuase of the current ME problems is starting to look thin with ISIS on the rampage, even getting a toe hold in Gaza.

I'm sure Israel would allow Egypt to clear out Gaza! Would a more moderate Arab block of nations even agree that parts of the west bank and its arab population be absorbed into Jordan, with finacial assistance from the oil states?

You are right Israel is here to stay, But I'll wait and see if there ever will be a palestinian state, not that I'm against such a state but the arabs at the moment doen't look like they want to talk peace. Abbas is actually helping the Israeli cause by not persuing peace, but rather trying to delegitimise Israel instead.


As much as Israel might suffer from such a move, it will effect the west bank Arabs as much. Where will the Arabs work if not in Israel no jobs no work, yet again Abbas shoots himself in the foot. So maybe it is just as well the BDS movement has had very little success.

All it shows is the Arabs only know how to destroy rather than build anything of good. Hamas in Gaza, ISIS in the levant, Boko Haram etc etc.

The "moderate" Arab countries dont need Israel.

The leaders in the Arab monarchies are pro-American but the populations are anything but pro-West, and well they are not fond of Israel, if we but it that way.

They might use Israel to attack Iran cause they are reluctant to do it themselves, thats it. If they decide on going ahead with that idea. No more no less.

None of the Arab monarchies can do joint actions with the Jewish state of Israel against other muslims. They have to be viewed upon as legitimate in the eyes of their population. Their biggest fear is not ISIS or Iran, its their own population.

If Israel wants to get close with the "moderate" Arab countries, then Israel should resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict. And forget about sending the Palestinians to Jordan, thats a no no. Israel might like the idea (a lot), but no one else.

As I said there is a game change going on. The Arab monarchies are so pro American they are lining up to by Russian Nuclear reactors, Saudi Arabia having signed a deal already.

Thanks to Obama they are not so pro American any more, maybe once Obama is gone there might be improved relations. It was not just Israel that was against the Iran deal. No one is talking of sending Arabs to Jordan. If you read my post I suggested Jordan would take over the territory absorbing the Arabs into Jordan.

That is a possibility, if Abbas refuses to make peace. Again ISIS is the problem the Palestinians are in danger of missing out big time if they don't want peace.

I would say while they may worry about their own civilians, they are far more worried about ISIS, Or do you think the people in parts or Iraq and Syria are having a good time under ISIS control?

Even the civilian populations won't be immune from ISIS madness. So to suggest ISIS is not the fear is wrong! This is going to be about Shia v Sunni, Iran v Saudi Arabia and other moderate states.

Even Hamas and the PA are in the sights of ISIS.


Nothing to fear there then!

Of course ISIS should be feared. But the US will not let the Gulf countries fall, the current monarchies will remain. USA will soon have a new president anyway. The Gulf states are not going to abandon the US, the relationship to the US is whats secures the future of their monarchies. They are not best buddies with the US because they love American food and culture. Being on very good terms with the US has its advantages.The US wont abandon them either, they are very important strategic partners in the most important waters of the world.

The best way to approach the "moderate" Arab countries is by resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict.

[ggold]

Jews ARE the indigenous people in the area called Palestine. They have been living there continuously for over 3,000 years. There were people before them that have died out over time and people after them that are still around and had a larger population at one time.

Judaism is a religion not a race. Peoples of many different races practice Judaism or call themselves Jews. You would have us believe that peoples who were living in Palestine before the rise of Judaism such as Canaanites and Philistines conveniently disappeared.

Despite the usual history mythologizing, semantic gymnastics to explain how there is no such thing as a Palestinian and that even though they formed 90% of the population they were somehow invisible to early Zionist immigrants, and logical contortions appealing to the supernatural that God gave an empty parcel of land in the cradle of civilization solely to Jews and that today's existing Palestinian residents were merely the caretakers on non renewable annual leases awaiting their true masters who had been absent for 2,000 years but incredibly in an undiluted lineage still held the original title deeds, even though they have just stepped off a plane from New York, Melbourne or Manchester and have never set eyes on the place before. Believe it or not, folks, the above forms the basis of Zionism.

Zionists are illegal immigrants to Palestine. The fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence in 1948 were born outside Palestine, mainly in Eastern Europe speaks volumes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Signatories_of_the_Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence

All very interesting school debating society stuff but it doesn't count in the real world. Palestinians aren't concerned whether their ancestors only came from a region called Palestine or a country called Palestine.They know their suffering under Israeli occupation is real enough.

What does count is the 70% of the world's countries (and more to come) do recognize Palestine. And the UN recognition in the OP adds further weight to the growing reality.

The bottom line for all Palestinian delegitimizers is this: even if you think there was was never a country called Palestine, well think again...because there is one now! And just like Israelis they are not going away. So get over it, and start thinking towards the future rather than a spurious past.

If Israelis don't get serious soon about discussing a just peace in a 2 state solution, they will find themselves in a one state solution, having to absorb 4.5 Palestinians, and losing any hope of a state with a predominantly Jewish character.

Maybe you could show me on a Map where this Palestinian state is, I looked in an Atlas and I can't find it! The only reason the Palestinians lot hasn't got better, is Abbas. If the PA had made infrastructure a priority rather than maintaning the place as a refugee camp there might have been peace.

As much as Netanyahu deosn't want to talk peace, abbas doesn't want to talk peace either. But there will never be a one state solution. Israel can maintain the curent situation for ever.

I read somewhere that about 30% of gazans want to leave gaza, they have had enough of Hamas, the majority of west bank arabs dislike the PA and it's corrupt ways. Some even want Israeli law in the west bank. So I am not so sure those arabs are there to stay

Now I know you can say the same about Israeli society being divided, But the point is Israel has elections. There has not been an election in the west bank for a while, Abbas refused to call elections when they were due.

So realisticly untill there is a democratic process for the arabs to choose a better leader who does Israel talk to. They voted for Hamas in Gaza, look what it got them. The Arabs need to make some changes if they hope to have peace.

All this delegitamising is not going to work, The world is not going to vote Israel out of existance. The Arabs however may just make the wrong choices yet again and become irrelevant.

The game has changed, Iran and Saudi Arabia are vying for influence in the reagon. The moderate arab nations are going to need Israels help, like it or not! The West bank Arabs are a problem. Hamas talking to Saudi Arabia, Iran is not happy about this.

So things are changing, This problem will be resolved, but not how Abbas wants. But for the next few years plus the Arabs will have their hands full with ISIS etc. The Palestinains become less of an issue, especially if Abbas shows any resistance to peace. The old addage that the palestinian question is the cuase of the current ME problems is starting to look thin with ISIS on the rampage, even getting a toe hold in Gaza.

I'm sure Israel would allow Egypt to clear out Gaza! Would a more moderate Arab block of nations even agree that parts of the west bank and its arab population be absorbed into Jordan, with finacial assistance from the oil states?

You are right Israel is here to stay, But I'll wait and see if there ever will be a palestinian state, not that I'm against such a state but the arabs at the moment doen't look like they want to talk peace. Abbas is actually helping the Israeli cause by not persuing peace, but rather trying to delegitimise Israel instead.

As much as Israel might suffer from such a move, it will effect the west bank Arabs as much. Where will the Arabs work if not in Israel no jobs no work, yet again Abbas shoots himself in the foot. So maybe it is just as well the BDS movement has had very little success.

All it shows is the Arabs only know how to destroy rather than build anything of good. Hamas in Gaza, ISIS in the levant, Boko Haram etc etc.

The "moderate" Arab countries dont need Israel.

The leaders in the Arab monarchies are pro-American but the populations are anything but pro-West, and well they are not fond of Israel, if we but it that way.

They might use Israel to attack Iran cause they are reluctant to do it themselves, thats it. If they decide on going ahead with that idea. No more no less.

None of the Arab monarchies can do joint actions with the Jewish state of Israel against other muslims. They have to be viewed upon as legitimate in the eyes of their population. Their biggest fear is not ISIS or Iran, its their own population.

If Israel wants to get close with the "moderate" Arab countries, then Israel should resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict. And forget about sending the Palestinians to Jordan, thats a no no. Israel might like the idea (a lot), but no one else.

As I said there is a game change going on. The Arab monarchies are so pro American they are lining up to by Russian Nuclear reactors, Saudi Arabia having signed a deal already.

Thanks to Obama they are not so pro American any more, maybe once Obama is gone there might be improved relations. It was not just Israel that was against the Iran deal. No one is talking of sending Arabs to Jordan. If you read my post I suggested Jordan would take over the territory absorbing the Arabs into Jordan.

That is a possibility, if Abbas refuses to make peace. Again ISIS is the problem the Palestinians are in danger of missing out big time if they don't want peace.

I would say while they may worry about their own civilians, they are far more worried about ISIS, Or do you think the people in parts or Iraq and Syria are having a good time under ISIS control?

Even the civilian populations won't be immune from ISIS madness. So to suggest ISIS is not the fear is wrong! This is going to be about Shia v Sunni, Iran v Saudi Arabia and other moderate states.

Even Hamas and the PA are in the sights of ISIS.

Nothing to fear there then!

Of course ISIS should be feared. But the US will not let the Gulf countries fall, the current monarchies will remain. USA will soon have a new president anyway. The Gulf states are not going to abandon the US, the relationship to the US is whats secures the future of their monarchies. They are not best buddies with the US because they love American food and culture. Being on very good terms with the US has its advantages.The US wont abandon them either, they are very important strategic partners in the most important waters of the world.

The best way to approach the "moderate" Arab countries is by resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Please make your mind up first you say the monarchies fear their own populations more than ISIS, Now you say ISIS should be feared! Which is it? What you mean is. Now that Obama has got his deal with Iran, he is scrambling to convince his ME allies that he has their back against Iran!

So how stupid was it making a deal his allies were against, then doing an about face trying to calm their fears, would it be anything to do with the Russian nuclear reactors that will pop up all over the ME?

As you say being on good terms with the US has it's advantages, Israel and the moderate Arab states have found that out. But obviously you have missed just how influential America has been with Obama in power.

Russia making claims to the Ukraine, China making claims to the south China seas encroaching on other countries territorial waters, The Iranians running circles around Obama's red lines. Russian nuclear reactors, soon all over the ME. I wonder if any of that would have happened had a stronger American President been in power.

All for the love of American fast food and culture. They sell themselves cheap!

[BKKBobby]

Jews ARE the indigenous people in the area called Palestine. They have been living there continuously for over 3,000 years. There were people before them that have died out over time and people after them that are still around and had a larger population at one time.

Judaism is a religion not a race. Peoples of many different races practice Judaism or call themselves Jews. You would have us believe that peoples who were living in Palestine before the rise of Judaism such as Canaanites and Philistines conveniently disappeared.

Despite the usual history mythologizing, semantic gymnastics to explain how there is no such thing as a Palestinian and that even though they formed 90% of the population they were somehow invisible to early Zionist immigrants, and logical contortions appealing to the supernatural that God gave an empty parcel of land in the cradle of civilization solely to Jews and that today's existing Palestinian residents were merely the caretakers on non renewable annual leases awaiting their true masters who had been absent for 2,000 years but incredibly in an undiluted lineage still held the original title deeds, even though they have just stepped off a plane from New York, Melbourne or Manchester and have never set eyes on the place before. Believe it or not, folks, the above forms the basis of Zionism.

Zionists are illegal immigrants to Palestine. The fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence in 1948 were born outside Palestine, mainly in Eastern Europe speaks volumes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Signatories_of_the_Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence

All very interesting school debating society stuff but it doesn't count in the real world. Palestinians aren't concerned whether their ancestors only came from a region called Palestine or a country called Palestine.They know their suffering under Israeli occupation is real enough.

What does count is the 70% of the world's countries (and more to come) do recognize Palestine. And the UN recognition in the OP adds further weight to the growing reality.

The bottom line for all Palestinian delegitimizers is this: even if you think there was was never a country called Palestine, well think again...because there is one now! And just like Israelis they are not going away. So get over it, and start thinking towards the future rather than a spurious past.

If Israelis don't get serious soon about discussing a just peace in a 2 state solution, they will find themselves in a one state solution, having to absorb 4.5 Palestinians, and losing any hope of a state with a predominantly Jewish character.

Maybe you could show me on a Map where this Palestinian state is, I looked in an Atlas and I can't find it! The only reason the Palestinians lot hasn't got better, is Abbas. If the PA had made infrastructure a priority rather than maintaning the place as a refugee camp there might have been peace.

As much as Netanyahu deosn't want to talk peace, abbas doesn't want to talk peace either. But there will never be a one state solution. Israel can maintain the curent situation for ever.

I read somewhere that about 30% of gazans want to leave gaza, they have had enough of Hamas, the majority of west bank arabs dislike the PA and it's corrupt ways. Some even want Israeli law in the west bank. So I am not so sure those arabs are there to stay

Now I know you can say the same about Israeli society being divided, But the point is Israel has elections. There has not been an election in the west bank for a while, Abbas refused to call elections when they were due.

So realisticly untill there is a democratic process for the arabs to choose a better leader who does Israel talk to. They voted for Hamas in Gaza, look what it got them. The Arabs need to make some changes if they hope to have peace.

All this delegitamising is not going to work, The world is not going to vote Israel out of existance. The Arabs however may just make the wrong choices yet again and become irrelevant.

The game has changed, Iran and Saudi Arabia are vying for influence in the reagon. The moderate arab nations are going to need Israels help, like it or not! The West bank Arabs are a problem. Hamas talking to Saudi Arabia, Iran is not happy about this.

So things are changing, This problem will be resolved, but not how Abbas wants. But for the next few years plus the Arabs will have their hands full with ISIS etc. The Palestinains become less of an issue, especially if Abbas shows any resistance to peace. The old addage that the palestinian question is the cuase of the current ME problems is starting to look thin with ISIS on the rampage, even getting a toe hold in Gaza.

I'm sure Israel would allow Egypt to clear out Gaza! Would a more moderate Arab block of nations even agree that parts of the west bank and its arab population be absorbed into Jordan, with finacial assistance from the oil states?

You are right Israel is here to stay, But I'll wait and see if there ever will be a palestinian state, not that I'm against such a state but the arabs at the moment doen't look like they want to talk peace. Abbas is actually helping the Israeli cause by not persuing peace, but rather trying to delegitimise Israel instead.

As much as Israel might suffer from such a move, it will effect the west bank Arabs as much. Where will the Arabs work if not in Israel no jobs no work, yet again Abbas shoots himself in the foot. So maybe it is just as well the BDS movement has had very little success.

All it shows is the Arabs only know how to destroy rather than build anything of good. Hamas in Gaza, ISIS in the levant, Boko Haram etc etc.

The "moderate" Arab countries dont need Israel.

The leaders in the Arab monarchies are pro-American but the populations are anything but pro-West, and well they are not fond of Israel, if we but it that way.

They might use Israel to attack Iran cause they are reluctant to do it themselves, thats it. If they decide on going ahead with that idea. No more no less.

None of the Arab monarchies can do joint actions with the Jewish state of Israel against other muslims. They have to be viewed upon as legitimate in the eyes of their population. Their biggest fear is not ISIS or Iran, its their own population.

If Israel wants to get close with the "moderate" Arab countries, then Israel should resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict. And forget about sending the Palestinians to Jordan, thats a no no. Israel might like the idea (a lot), but no one else.

As I said there is a game change going on. The Arab monarchies are so pro American they are lining up to by Russian Nuclear reactors, Saudi Arabia having signed a deal already.

Thanks to Obama they are not so pro American any more, maybe once Obama is gone there might be improved relations. It was not just Israel that was against the Iran deal. No one is talking of sending Arabs to Jordan. If you read my post I suggested Jordan would take over the territory absorbing the Arabs into Jordan.

That is a possibility, if Abbas refuses to make peace. Again ISIS is the problem the Palestinians are in danger of missing out big time if they don't want peace.

I would say while they may worry about their own civilians, they are far more worried about ISIS, Or do you think the people in parts or Iraq and Syria are having a good time under ISIS control?

Even the civilian populations won't be immune from ISIS madness. So to suggest ISIS is not the fear is wrong! This is going to be about Shia v Sunni, Iran v Saudi Arabia and other moderate states.

Even Hamas and the PA are in the sights of ISIS.

Nothing to fear there then!

Of course ISIS should be feared. But the US will not let the Gulf countries fall, the current monarchies will remain. USA will soon have a new president anyway. The Gulf states are not going to abandon the US, the relationship to the US is whats secures the future of their monarchies. They are not best buddies with the US because they love American food and culture. Being on very good terms with the US has its advantages.The US wont abandon them either, they are very important strategic partners in the most important waters of the world.

The best way to approach the "moderate" Arab countries is by resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Please make your mind up first you say the monarchies fear their own populations more than ISIS, Now you say ISIS should be feared! Which is it? What you mean is. Now that Obama has got his deal with Iran, he is scrambling to convince his ME allies that he has their back against Iran!

So how stupid was it making a deal his allies were against, then doing an about face trying to calm their fears, would it be anything to do with the Russian nuclear reactors that will pop up all over the ME?

As you say being on good terms with the US has it's advantages, Israel and the moderate Arab states have found that out. But obviously you have missed just how influential America has been with Obama in power.

Russia making claims to the Ukraine, China making claims to the south China seas encroaching on other countries territorial waters, The Iranians running circles around Obama's red lines. Russian nuclear reactors, soon all over the ME. I wonder if any of that would have happened had a stronger American President been in power.

All for the love of American fast food and culture. They sell themselves cheap!

Everyone should fear ISIS. Especially in the region. Attack in Kuwait and now the Saudis have ISIS actions inside their borders too. Im just saying that ISIS wont be able to overthrow the rulers of the Arab monarchies.

Russia and Israel can never replace good ol' US.

I dont think they will switch sides to Russia, theres never a guarantee but US is the best help they can have to remain as rulers.

I might be wrong, of course.

Lets see.

Edited July 22, 2015 by BKKBobby