France deploys riot police to bolster Calais tunnel security

[webfact]

France deploys riot police to bolster Calais security
ELAINE GANLEY, Associated Press
LORI HINNANT, Associated Press

CALAIS, France (AP) — The young Afghan has tried every single day for three months to get into the railway tunnel in Calais leading to England and what he hopes will be a better life. For him, like the dozens who appeared as darkness fell, Wednesday would be the same even if their numbers were immeasurably larger than even a week ago.

Undeterred by an influx of French riot police, a surveillance helicopter, or a ninth death this summer among the tens of thousands who attempt to cross the Channel, the migrants came in groups of a dozen or more. Men and women, some hiding their faces beneath bandannas, walked single file to sneak over a bent fence along the train tracks leading to the tunnel and ultimately to England.

One migrant was crushed to death and another was critically injured after being electrocuted in Paris on Wednesday alone.

"Every day there's a risk of life. People are losing their life. Accept them or reject them," said 31-year-old Nazirullah, who gave no surname. He said he arrived in Calais three months ago, speaking good English and claiming he had worked at the French Embassy back in Afghanistan.

Migrants pressing northward toward both countries are fleeing war, dictatorship and poverty in Africa and the Middle East. They tend to spend as little time as possible in their southern European landing spots, like Italy, where two ships unloaded on Wednesday, one carrying 435 passengers and 14 bodies and another with 692 migrants.

Many hit a dead end on the French side of the 50-kilometer (30-mile) Channel Tunnel, often referred to as the Chunnel, which is used by passenger trains and freight services to connect France and Britain.

British officials have increasingly sounded the alarm over a potential influx of foreigners. French officials, meanwhile, are concerned about the roughly 3,000 migrants in encampments called "the jungle" by the inhabitants of the largely lawless sites scattered haphazardly in the area.

It's not clear how many ever reach Britain, although at least a few succeeded this week in stowing aboard trains to make the 35-minute trip. Others were led away in the darkness, including a small group retrieved from a ditch by a single watchman wielding little more than a flashlight.

France dispatched 120 riot police immediately to Calais to bolster security that British authorities complain has been lax. France's government, meanwhile, called on Eurotunnel, the company that operates the tunnel, to step up its protection of the sensitive site.

By Wednesday night, a police helicopter hovered overhead and gendarmes in flak jackets turned back about two dozen.

Those caught on the French side are generally immediately freed to return to the camps and try again. Those caught on the in British side may be detained while their applications for asylum are considered. But many stay hidden aboard trucks as they roll off the trains until they stop for fuel, then hop off and vanish.

"Smugglers sell migrants the notion that Britain is the only El Dorado for a better life," said Emmanuel Agrius, the deputy mayor of Calais.

Eurotunnel defended its efforts, saying Wednesday it had blocked more than 37,000 attempts since January. Nine people have died trying since June, including the man crushed by a truck. An Egyptian trying to leap from a train roof and board the Eurostar at Paris' Gare du Nord train station was in critical condition after being electrocuted.

There were wildly conflicting totals of people involved in Wednesday's rush for the tunnel, ranging from 150 to as many as 1,200. But French authorities and the company agreed there had been about 2,000 attempts on each of two successive nights. British Home Secretary Theresa May said "a number" of migrants made it through overnight.

Attempts have been increasing exponentially as has the sense of crisis in recent weeks, spurred by new barriers around the Eurotunnel site, lack of access to the Calais port, labor strife that turned the rails into protest sites for striking workers, and an influx of desperate migrants.

"This exceptional migrant situation has dramatic human consequences," French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said. "Calais is a mirror of conflicts tearing up regions of the world."

About 25 migrants were seen getting off a public bus in Calais early Wednesday with a police officer who left them by the side of the road. Several said they were returning from a night of trying to cross the Channel.

"(We) come from train here and tomorrow, inshallah, try again in the train," said an Eritrean, using the Arabic expression for "God willing," who would not give his name as he planned further attempts to reach England.

The man killed overnight, believed to be a Sudanese man in his mid-20s, was crushed by a truck as he tried to stow away, Gilles Debove, a police union official told The Associated Press.

The delays caused mayhem for truckers on both sides of the Channel. Cargo trucks were backed up overnight in Calais for several kilometers (miles) leading to the loading zone, some of them stuck on a highway overpass above one of the many makeshift migrant camps. British police, meanwhile, turned parts of a highway near the British end of the tunnel into a giant parking lot. Passenger service was also delayed.

Eurotunnel called for help from both the French and British governments to protect the site and its 23-kilometer (14-mile) perimeter, which is far more dangerous for migrants than the now locked-down port had been, with small hills, basins of water and electrified shuttles for the trucks that can strike stowaways.

"It's become a phenomenon which is beyond our means," Eurotunnel spokesman John Keefe said. "We're just a small transport company operating in a little corner of Europe."

Keefe said attacks on the fences are organized.

"This is very clearly criminal gangs or human traffickers who coordinate attacks on the fences," he said.

British Prime Minister David Cameron, speaking during his visit to Singapore, described the crisis as "very concerning," but that there was no point in "pointing fingers of blame." Other British officials blamed the government in France, where officials said Eurotunnel also needed to do more.

The British government has agreed to provide an extra 7 million pounds ($11 million) of funding for measures to improve security at Calais. Until Wednesday, 60 French police covered the site, along with Eurotunnel security crews. The new arrivals, Debove said, would be a "burst of oxygen" to protecting the site, but he expected attempts to continue.

The Conservative Party lawmaker for Folkestone in southern England, Damian Collins, said French authorities needed to better secure their side.

"They have allowed people willingly to break into the Channel Tunnel site. I can't believe they would be that lax in protecting an airport or another sensitive facility," Collins said. "But that has happened constantly throughout the summer."

Many of the migrants disembarking in Italy on Wednesday were families, said Giovanna De Benedetto, spokeswoman for Save the Children in the port of Messina.

"Most of them (are) Syrians, who are traveling with their families so they have escaped from four years of conflict, children who simply want to play, to have a future, a dignified life in Europe as millions of children their age have."

May, the home secretary, said Britain was pressing for a bigger fence around the Calais railhead to stop people reaching the French end of the tunnel. She said Britain and France would work together to return people to their home countries and crack down on smugglers.

Ultimately, May added, "the answer to this problem is to ensure we are reducing the number of migrants who are trying to come from Africa across into Europe, that we break that link between making that dangerous journey, as it often is for people, and coming to settle in Europe."
___

Lori Hinnant reported from Paris. Maggy Donaldson in Paris, Chris Den Hond in Calais, Danica Kirka and Jill Lawless in London, and Patricia Thomas in Messina, Italy, contributed.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-07-30

[Thian]

Briton must be paradise for them, they don't care for France or Europe.

What is attracting them so much? The sunny weather? Fish and chips? Beans on toast? Ladys with foul language?

[derator01]

A post violating forum rules has been removed from view.

[zaphod reborn]

Briton must be paradise for them, they don't care for France or Europe.

What is attracting them so much? The sunny weather? Fish and chips? Beans on toast? Ladys with foul language?

A better target for terrorism?

[jpinx]

I've said it before -- France is hosting a siege of UK. they send a token 120 riot police thousands of organised "nothing-to-lose" immigrants, and when they catch tham at the fence - they're just taken back and set free.

These are immigrants in France - France should be dealing with them, screening, repatriating, whatever, but they do nothing -- just let them roam free.

The people who thought up the Schengen agreement were a bunch of idiots to not see this coming....

[lvr181]

And Australia thinks they have a problem? Welcome to the real world.

[DoctorB]

Briton must be paradise for them, they don't care for France or Europe.

What is attracting them so much? The sunny weather? Fish and chips? Beans on toast? Ladys with foul language?

1 A benefits regime that includes free healthcare & education, a requirement for local authorities to house anyone who is homeless and payments up to about 25,000 pounds per year depending on circumstances.

2 No requirement for anyone to carry id thus allowing a flourishing black economy that can employ illegal immigrants with impunity alongside the benefits culture.

3 A human rights culture that makes it more or less impossible for anyone to be deported once they have set foot in the UK, even if they commit atrocious crimes or engage in terrorism.

4 A multi-cultural ethos that teaches that all cultures are equal in validity and quality, and encourages immigrants to set up parallel communities that can re-create the living conditions of their homelands, but without the hassles that displaced them from there.

5 A left/liberal cultural guilt for colonialism/imperialism that shades into a xenophilia that always takes the position that "they" are victims and we are "brutes".

6 A legal system that penalises any criticism of minority groups as "hate speech", however unsavoury their behaviour.

7 A weak and vacillating government and a Prime Minister who always shifts with the prevailing wind, known even to his own party as Mr Slippery.

Etc, etc

I could go on; but why bother. Nothing will change until Britain becomes part of the Caliphate.

Oh, and the icing on the sugar: English is the dominant language, for now at least. Who wants to bother learning Norwegian or Finnish or Flemish? And English could in due course open the door to the US, Canada, Australia etc.

Edited July 30, 2015 by DoctorB

[lvr181]

Briton must be paradise for them, they don't care for France or Europe.

What is attracting them so much? The sunny weather? Fish and chips? Beans on toast? Ladys with foul language?

1 A benefits regime that includes free healthcare & education, a requirement for local authorities to house anyone who is homeless and payments up to about 25,000 pounds per year depending on circumstances.

2 No requirement for anyone to carry id thus allowing a flourishing black economy that can employ illegal immigrants with impunity alongside the benefits culture.

3 A human rights culture that makes it more or less impossible for anyone to be deported once they have set foot in the UK, even if they commit atrocious crimes or engage in terrorism.

4 A multi-cultural ethos that teaches that all cultures are equal in validity and quality, and encourages immigrants to set up parallel communities that can re-create the living conditions of their homelands, but without the hassles that displaced them from there.

5 A left/liberal cultural guilt for colonialism/imperialism that shades into a xenophilia that always takes the position that "they" are victims and we are "brutes".

6 A legal system that penalises any criticism of minority groups as "hate speech", however unsavoury their behaviour.

7 A weak and vacillating government and a Prime Minister who always shifts with the prevailing wind, known even to his own party as Mr Slippery.

Etc, etc

I could go on; but why bother. Nothing will change until Britain becomes part of the Caliphate.

Oh, and the icing on the sugar: English is the dominant language, for now at least. Who wants to bother learning Norwegian or Finnish or Flemish? And English could in due course open the door to the US, Canada, Australia etc.

Yup, everyone is equal. Just that some are more equal than others e.g. Thailand (and some other places as well).

[Thian]

Briton must be paradise for them, they don't care for France or Europe.

What is attracting them so much? The sunny weather? Fish and chips? Beans on toast? Ladys with foul language?

1 A benefits regime that includes free healthcare & education, a requirement for local authorities to house anyone who is homeless and payments up to about 25,000 pounds per year depending on circumstances.

2 No requirement for anyone to carry id thus allowing a flourishing black economy that can employ illegal immigrants with impunity alongside the benefits culture.

3 A human rights culture that makes it more or less impossible for anyone to be deported once they have set foot in the UK, even if they commit atrocious crimes or engage in terrorism.

4 A multi-cultural ethos that teaches that all cultures are equal in validity and quality, and encourages immigrants to set up parallel communities that can re-create the living conditions of their homelands, but without the hassles that displaced them from there.

5 A left/liberal cultural guilt for colonialism/imperialism that shades into a xenophilia that always takes the position that "they" are victims and we are "brutes".

6 A legal system that penalises any criticism of minority groups as "hate speech", however unsavoury their behaviour.

7 A weak and vacillating government and a Prime Minister who always shifts with the prevailing wind, known even to his own party as Mr Slippery.

Etc, etc

I could go on; but why bother. Nothing will change until Britain becomes part of the Caliphate.

Oh, and the icing on the sugar: English is the dominant language, for now at least. Who wants to bother learning Norwegian or Finnish or Flemish? And English could in due course open the door to the US, Canada, Australia etc.

But Europe also gives them all the freebees. They will have to carry their id all the time though (like all of us).

France looks like a 3rd world country with so many camps full of illegal people. And then they even want to have a European government for all Europe.

Also look what the French farmers are doing, they made huge roadblocks now there is much holidaytraffic. They also open up trailers and steal all their goods if it's agricultural produce from other EU members. And their government does nothing to stop that!

France has really lost it in my opinion.

[JDGRUEN]

The post by DoctorB was very much on target as migrants who were interviewed on TV revealed that English language was a big draw.. plus all the other benefits.

[7by7]

Briton must be paradise for them, they don't care for France or Europe.

What is attracting them so much? The sunny weather? Fish and chips? Beans on toast? Ladys with foul language?

1 A benefits regime that includes free healthcare & education, a requirement for local authorities to house anyone who is homeless and payments up to about 25,000 pounds per year depending on circumstances.

2 No requirement for anyone to carry id thus allowing a flourishing black economy that can employ illegal immigrants with impunity alongside the benefits culture.

3 A human rights culture that makes it more or less impossible for anyone to be deported once they have set foot in the UK, even if they commit atrocious crimes or engage in terrorism.

4 A multi-cultural ethos that teaches that all cultures are equal in validity and quality, and encourages immigrants to set up parallel communities that can re-create the living conditions of their homelands, but without the hassles that displaced them from there.

5 A left/liberal cultural guilt for colonialism/imperialism that shades into a xenophilia that always takes the position that "they" are victims and we are "brutes".

6 A legal system that penalises any criticism of minority groups as "hate speech", however unsavoury their behaviour.

7 A weak and vacillating government and a Prime Minister who always shifts with the prevailing wind, known even to his own party as Mr Slippery.

Etc, etc

I could go on; but why bother. Nothing will change until Britain becomes part of the Caliphate.

Oh, and the icing on the sugar: English is the dominant language, for now at least. Who wants to bother learning Norwegian or Finnish or Flemish? And English could in due course open the door to the US, Canada, Australia etc.

1) Illegal immigrants are not entitled to any of the benefits you have listed.

Even immigrants who have entered the UK legally are not entitled to any of these benefits until they have ILR, which takes at least 5 years residence plus other requirements, including passing the language and LitUK tests, to obtain. They can get NHS treatment, provided they have paid the £200 p.a. NHS surcharge in advance for the term of their visa or LTR.

2) All UK employers must, by law, establish that all potential employees are either a British citizen or, if not, have a visa or leave to remain which allows them to work in the UK. If they do employ someone who cannot legally work in the UK they can be fined up to £20,000 per illegal employee.

UKVI do check, and I often see their enforcement teams on my daily round.

3) Completely incorrect; foreign criminals are deported. Even someone who has ILR can be deported if they are sentenced to a prison term. Someone who has been naturalised as British can be stripped of that citizenship and deported if the crime is serious enough; e.g. terrorism.

4, 5 & 6) People of all cultures are, of course, entitled to practice that culture in the UK; provided they remain within the law. Just as you are in Thailand.

Criticism of anyone is obviously legal; hate speech is something different and illegal; regardless of the speaker and their target.

7) You might be right on this one.

These 'migrants' may believe as you do, but if they are successful in getting to the UK they will be sorely disappointed.

Living below the radar, or handing themselves into the state and being given a very minimal living allowance, we're not barbarians and wont let them starve, or, more likely, find themselves in a prison like Immigration Detention Centre until there case is decided upon.

Having said that, I have little sympathy with these so called migrants.

If they are genuine refugees then one must wonder why they have travelled across Europe to try and reach the UK instead of seeking asylum before reaching Calais.

But it must be remembered that people have died. Why are they willing to risk their lives to reach the UK? (Sensible suggestions welcome, but no ignorant rubbish like the quoted post above, please.)

[robertthebruce]

Briton must be paradise for them, they don't care for France or Europe.

What is attracting them so much? The sunny weather? Fish and chips? Beans on toast? Ladys with foul language?

1 A benefits regime that includes free healthcare & education, a requirement for local authorities to house anyone who is homeless and payments up to about 25,000 pounds per year depending on circumstances.

2 No requirement for anyone to carry id thus allowing a flourishing black economy that can employ illegal immigrants with impunity alongside the benefits culture.

3 A human rights culture that makes it more or less impossible for anyone to be deported once they have set foot in the UK, even if they commit atrocious crimes or engage in terrorism.

4 A multi-cultural ethos that teaches that all cultures are equal in validity and quality, and encourages immigrants to set up parallel communities that can re-create the living conditions of their homelands, but without the hassles that displaced them from there.

5 A left/liberal cultural guilt for colonialism/imperialism that shades into a xenophilia that always takes the position that "they" are victims and we are "brutes".

6 A legal system that penalises any criticism of minority groups as "hate speech", however unsavoury their behaviour.

7 A weak and vacillating government and a Prime Minister who always shifts with the prevailing wind, known even to his own party as Mr Slippery.

Etc, etc

I could go on; but why bother. Nothing will change until Britain becomes part of the Caliphate.

Oh, and the icing on the sugar: English is the dominant language, for now at least. Who wants to bother learning Norwegian or Finnish or Flemish? And English could in due course open the door to the US, Canada, Australia etc.

But Europe also gives them all the freebees. They will have to carry their id all the time though (like all of us).

France looks like a 3rd world country with so many camps full of illegal people. And then they even want to have a European government for all Europe.

Also look what the French farmers are doing, they made huge roadblocks now there is much holidaytraffic. They also open up trailers and steal all their goods if it's agricultural produce from other EU members. And their government does nothing to stop that!

France has really lost it in my opinion.

Have a visit to CDG Airport in Paris, it's like Homeless City Two.... They are all walking my about pushing the trolleys with all there possessions... Sad....

[JDGRUEN]

At some point the leaders of the various countries of the EU/U.K. will figure out it is much cheaper in the long run (although still very expensive) to make agreements with various countries of Africa and the Middle East to pay these countries to take the people back.

Resettlement in their homeland after DNA/Fingerprints with a stipend to stay in their homeland ... will as expensive as that might get become a more palatable option and more affordable.

Why? Regardless of the feelings of the bleeding hearts the RU/U.K. cannot possibly absorb all these people which will rise to unbelievable levels in the next 10 years.... The social disruption and the cost to be borne will become burdensome beyond anything that can be dealt with by ordinary means. Countries will risk civil war and revolution if drastic action is not taken for a long term solution... It is a preposterous to believe this is problem can be handled over time with just migrants being integrated into the EU/U.K social stream ... Granting resettlement and asylum to 1000 will only cause 10,000 to get on the boats and cross over land ... Grant resettlement to 10,000 and 100,000 will get on the boats and cross over land... How and Why.... These people have the Internet TOO ... news of successful resettlement and asylum travels back home in minutes ...Everyone in the whole area knows in hours ---

Taking them back to their homeland is retrofitted older cruise ships by the thousands - a dozen ships each week is the only answer in the short term.

David Cameron just announced - reported in this last few minutes -- migrants will not be allowed into Britain via the Chunnel from Calais ... Good for him... But now it is certain that France will have to do something ... and likely it means deportation en mass...

Political blowups can be expected ... soon...

Note: Captain Obvious Cameron was just on TV pointing out that 'We have to recognize the root of this problem ... all the migrants crossing over the Mediterranean' (paraphrase) ...Wow! That was deep ... Good Grief...

[JockPieandBeans]

At some point the leaders of the various countries of the EU/U.K. will figure out it is much cheaper in the long run (although still very expensive) to make agreements with various countries of Africa and the Middle East to pay these countries to take the people back.

Resettlement in their homeland after DNA/Fingerprints with a stipend to stay in their homeland ... will as expensive as that might get become a more palatable option and more affordable.

Why? Regardless of the feelings of the bleeding hearts the RU/U.K. cannot possibly absorb all these people which will rise to unbelievable levels in the next 10 years.... The social disruption and the cost to be borne will become burdensome beyond anything that can be dealt with by ordinary means. Countries will risk civil war and revolution if drastic action is not taken for a long term solution... It is a preposterous to believe this is problem can be handled over time with just migrants being integrated into the EU/U.K social stream ... Granting resettlement and asylum to 1000 will only cause 10,000 to get on the boats and cross over land ... Grant resettlement to 10,000 and 100,000 will get on the boats and cross over land... How and Why.... These people have the Internet TOO ... news of successful resettlement and asylum travels back home in minutes ...Everyone in the whole area knows in hours ---

Taking them back to their homeland is retrofitted older cruise ships by the thousands - a dozen ships each week is the only answer in the short term.

David Cameron just announced - reported in this last few minutes -- migrants will not be allowed into Britain via the Chunnel from Calais ... Good for him... But now it is certain that France will have to do something ... and likely it means deportation en mass...

Political blowups can be expected ... soon...

Note: Captain Obvious Cameron was just on TV pointing out that 'We have to recognize the root of this problem ... all the migrants crossing over the Mediterranean' (paraphrase) ...Wow! That was deep ... Good Grief...

Cameron is a laughing danny.

He has more waffle than a coo has ***

Major disaster and captain chaos reign supreme

[JDGRUEN]

At some point the leaders of the various countries of the EU/U.K. will figure out it is much cheaper in the long run (although still very expensive) to make agreements with various countries of Africa and the Middle East to pay these countries to take the people back.

Resettlement in their homeland after DNA/Fingerprints with a stipend to stay in their homeland ... will as expensive as that might get become a more palatable option and more affordable.

Why? Regardless of the feelings of the bleeding hearts the RU/U.K. cannot possibly absorb all these people which will rise to unbelievable levels in the next 10 years.... The social disruption and the cost to be borne will become burdensome beyond anything that can be dealt with by ordinary means. Countries will risk civil war and revolution if drastic action is not taken for a long term solution... It is a preposterous to believe this is problem can be handled over time with just migrants being integrated into the EU/U.K social stream ... Granting resettlement and asylum to 1000 will only cause 10,000 to get on the boats and cross over land ... Grant resettlement to 10,000 and 100,000 will get on the boats and cross over land... How and Why.... These people have the Internet TOO ... news of successful resettlement and asylum travels back home in minutes ...Everyone in the whole area knows in hours ---

Taking them back to their homeland is retrofitted older cruise ships by the thousands - a dozen ships each week is the only answer in the short term.

David Cameron just announced - reported in this last few minutes -- migrants will not be allowed into Britain via the Chunnel from Calais ... Good for him... But now it is certain that France will have to do something ... and likely it means deportation en mass...

Political blowups can be expected ... soon...

Note: Captain Obvious Cameron was just on TV pointing out that 'We have to recognize the root of this problem ... all the migrants crossing over the Mediterranean' (paraphrase) ...Wow! That was deep ... Good Grief...

Cameron is a laughing danny.

He has more waffle than a coo has ***

Major disaster and captain chaos reign supreme

Watching Cameron on the news reruns during the day has caused me to realized when he was conjuring up ways to describe the problem -- after he was stung earlier for using the term 'swarm' (oh gawd - not PC) he was walking back toughness... and his comment about the 'recognize the problem ' made me winch a bit -- as it was obvious by the tone - body language and words - he is totally out of touch with the problem -- it just does not register with his aloof status in life... he was having to work himself up to sound authoritative or in charge but could not summon up any good words or phrases ... I guess he caught a glimpse of himself as a reflection in the camera lens and forgot his rehearsed words... I think Britain needs a Donald Trump...

[DoctorB]

Briton must be paradise for them, they don't care for France or Europe.

What is attracting them so much? The sunny weather? Fish and chips? Beans on toast? Ladys with foul language?

1 A benefits regime that includes free healthcare & education, a requirement for local authorities to house anyone who is homeless and payments up to about 25,000 pounds per year depending on circumstances.

2 No requirement for anyone to carry id thus allowing a flourishing black economy that can employ illegal immigrants with impunity alongside the benefits culture.

3 A human rights culture that makes it more or less impossible for anyone to be deported once they have set foot in the UK, even if they commit atrocious crimes or engage in terrorism.

4 A multi-cultural ethos that teaches that all cultures are equal in validity and quality, and encourages immigrants to set up parallel communities that can re-create the living conditions of their homelands, but without the hassles that displaced them from there.

5 A left/liberal cultural guilt for colonialism/imperialism that shades into a xenophilia that always takes the position that "they" are victims and we are "brutes".

6 A legal system that penalises any criticism of minority groups as "hate speech", however unsavoury their behaviour.

7 A weak and vacillating government and a Prime Minister who always shifts with the prevailing wind, known even to his own party as Mr Slippery.

Etc, etc

I could go on; but why bother. Nothing will change until Britain becomes part of the Caliphate.

Oh, and the icing on the sugar: English is the dominant language, for now at least. Who wants to bother learning Norwegian or Finnish or Flemish? And English could in due course open the door to the US, Canada, Australia etc.

1) Illegal immigrants are not entitled to any of the benefits you have listed.

Even immigrants who have entered the UK legally are not entitled to any of these benefits until they have ILR, which takes at least 5 years residence plus other requirements, including passing the language and LitUK tests, to obtain. They can get NHS treatment, provided they have paid the £200 p.a. NHS surcharge in advance for the term of their visa or LTR.

2) All UK employers must, by law, establish that all potential employees are either a British citizen or, if not, have a visa or leave to remain which allows them to work in the UK. If they do employ someone who cannot legally work in the UK they can be fined up to £20,000 per illegal employee.

UKVI do check, and I often see their enforcement teams on my daily round.

3) Completely incorrect; foreign criminals are deported. Even someone who has ILR can be deported if they are sentenced to a prison term. Someone who has been naturalised as British can be stripped of that citizenship and deported if the crime is serious enough; e.g. terrorism.

4, 5 & 6) People of all cultures are, of course, entitled to practice that culture in the UK; provided they remain within the law. Just as you are in Thailand.

Criticism of anyone is obviously legal; hate speech is something different and illegal; regardless of the speaker and their target.

7) You might be right on this one.

These 'migrants' may believe as you do, but if they are successful in getting to the UK they will be sorely disappointed.

Living below the radar, or handing themselves into the state and being given a very minimal living allowance, we're not barbarians and wont let them starve, or, more likely, find themselves in a prison like Immigration Detention Centre until there case is decided upon.

Having said that, I have little sympathy with these so called migrants.

If they are genuine refugees then one must wonder why they have travelled across Europe to try and reach the UK instead of seeking asylum before reaching Calais.

But it must be remembered that people have died. Why are they willing to risk their lives to reach the UK? (Sensible suggestions welcome, but no ignorant rubbish like the quoted post above, please.)

I refer you to the UK Govt website https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get. (I am of course assuming that an illegal immigrant will have the intelligence to apply for asylum).

This states quite clearly:-

"You’ll be given somewhere to live if you need it. This could be in a flat, house, hostel or bed and breakfast."

"You’ll be able to collect money from a local post office each week. This will help you pay for things you need like food, clothing and toiletries.

The amount you get will depend on your situation." it then quotes various amounts from £290 per month for a married couple to £212 for someone under 16.

For the pregnant it states "You can apply for a one-off £300 maternity payment if your baby is due in 8 weeks or less, or if your baby is under 6 weeks old."

It also says:-

"You may get free National Health Service (NHS) healthcare, eg to see a doctor or get hospital treatment.

You’ll also get:

• free prescriptions for medicine
• free dental care for your teeth
• free eyesight tests
• help paying for glasses"

Ok it says "MAY get free National Health Service (NHS) healthcare" but unlike Thai hospitals the NHS will never turn anyone away.

Finally:-

"Your children must attend school if they are aged 5 to 17. All state schools are free and your children may be able to get free school meals."

I accept this is not a king's ransom, but for "the wretched of the earth" it constitues a pull factor that could ultimately prove unsustainable, to put it mildly. Bear in mind also that the UK is already over-crowded, there is a serious housing shortage, and both the NHS and education systems are already showing signs of being unable to cope with demand, let alone cost.

[JDGRUEN]

Briton must be paradise for them, they don't care for France or Europe.

What is attracting them so much? The sunny weather? Fish and chips? Beans on toast? Ladys with foul language?

1 A benefits regime that includes free healthcare & education, a requirement for local authorities to house anyone who is homeless and payments up to about 25,000 pounds per year depending on circumstances.

2 No requirement for anyone to carry id thus allowing a flourishing black economy that can employ illegal immigrants with impunity alongside the benefits culture.

3 A human rights culture that makes it more or less impossible for anyone to be deported once they have set foot in the UK, even if they commit atrocious crimes or engage in terrorism.

4 A multi-cultural ethos that teaches that all cultures are equal in validity and quality, and encourages immigrants to set up parallel communities that can re-create the living conditions of their homelands, but without the hassles that displaced them from there.

5 A left/liberal cultural guilt for colonialism/imperialism that shades into a xenophilia that always takes the position that "they" are victims and we are "brutes".

6 A legal system that penalises any criticism of minority groups as "hate speech", however unsavoury their behaviour.

7 A weak and vacillating government and a Prime Minister who always shifts with the prevailing wind, known even to his own party as Mr Slippery.

Etc, etc

I could go on; but why bother. Nothing will change until Britain becomes part of the Caliphate.

Oh, and the icing on the sugar: English is the dominant language, for now at least. Who wants to bother learning Norwegian or Finnish or Flemish? And English could in due course open the door to the US, Canada, Australia etc.

1) Illegal immigrants are not entitled to any of the benefits you have listed.

Even immigrants who have entered the UK legally are not entitled to any of these benefits until they have ILR, which takes at least 5 years residence plus other requirements, including passing the language and LitUK tests, to obtain. They can get NHS treatment, provided they have paid the £200 p.a. NHS surcharge in advance for the term of their visa or LTR.

2) All UK employers must, by law, establish that all potential employees are either a British citizen or, if not, have a visa or leave to remain which allows them to work in the UK. If they do employ someone who cannot legally work in the UK they can be fined up to £20,000 per illegal employee.

UKVI do check, and I often see their enforcement teams on my daily round.

3) Completely incorrect; foreign criminals are deported. Even someone who has ILR can be deported if they are sentenced to a prison term. Someone who has been naturalised as British can be stripped of that citizenship and deported if the crime is serious enough; e.g. terrorism.

4, 5 & 6) People of all cultures are, of course, entitled to practice that culture in the UK; provided they remain within the law. Just as you are in Thailand.

Criticism of anyone is obviously legal; hate speech is something different and illegal; regardless of the speaker and their target.

7) You might be right on this one.

These 'migrants' may believe as you do, but if they are successful in getting to the UK they will be sorely disappointed.

Living below the radar, or handing themselves into the state and being given a very minimal living allowance, we're not barbarians and wont let them starve, or, more likely, find themselves in a prison like Immigration Detention Centre until there case is decided upon.

Having said that, I have little sympathy with these so called migrants.

If they are genuine refugees then one must wonder why they have travelled across Europe to try and reach the UK instead of seeking asylum before reaching Calais.

But it must be remembered that people have died. Why are they willing to risk their lives to reach the UK? (Sensible suggestions welcome, but no ignorant rubbish like the quoted post above, please.)

I refer you to the UK Govt website https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get. (I am of course assuming that an illegal immigrant will have the intelligence to apply for asylum).

This states quite clearly:-

"You’ll be given somewhere to live if you need it. This could be in a flat, house, hostel or bed and breakfast."

"You’ll be able to collect money from a local post office each week. This will help you pay for things you need like food, clothing and toiletries.

The amount you get will depend on your situation." it then quotes various amounts from £290 per month for a married couple to £212 for someone under 16.

For the pregnant it states "You can apply for a one-off £300 maternity payment if your baby is due in 8 weeks or less, or if your baby is under 6 weeks old."

It also says:-

"You may get free National Health Service (NHS) healthcare, eg to see a doctor or get hospital treatment.

You’ll also get:

• free prescriptions for medicine
• free dental care for your teeth
• free eyesight tests
• help paying for glasses"

Ok it says "MAY get free National Health Service (NHS) healthcare" but unlike Thai hospitals the NHS will never turn anyone away.

Finally:-

"Your children must attend school if they are aged 5 to 17. All state schools are free and your children may be able to get free school meals."

I accept this is not a king's ransom, but for "the wretched of the earth" it constitues a pull factor that could ultimately prove unsustainable, to put it mildly. Bear in mind also that the UK is already over-crowded, there is a serious housing shortage, and both the NHS and education systems are already showing signs of being unable to cope with demand, let alone cost.

Stand Firm DoctorB... these days when a critic does not like your answers or suggestions of such subjects, because they have no reasonable alternative as a solution - they resort to calling people racist and bigots ... never mind what you said can be proven and that what you said was a clear example of common sense. Unrealistic critics in these kinds of matters allow misplaced unbridled compassion to override common sense believing they can save the world and that their own culture is not worth saving or have become so brainwashed with liberalism that they believe their culture is the culprit in the world's problems by merely existing. Bottom line some who suffer from misplaced unbridled compassion just simply cannot count -- simple math eludes them. It does not register in their minds that while tens of thousands come now - hundreds of thousands will come later, then millions. After all what would stop the millions from going after a life style improvement 100 times greater than their current existence? Instant world communication ability is also available to the poor masses... I would not be surprised that an image of the document you just quoted from is on every other phone in North Africa and the phones of the masses who have already crossed and are camped in Italy, Greece, and France. Speaking of Greece... some should take note that the EU has decided that generosity to the Greeks who see themselves as needy is only being niggardly granted just recently by the EU powers that be. So in this regard how can anyone forecast that the EU/U.K countries have the money and resources to be the caretakers of the millions of North Africans and Middle Easterners who are ready and waiting to cross over? This problem is not a 20 year out problem -- it is a 3 to 5 year out problem on an enormous scale.

(just in case some PC zealot does not like my use of the word 'niggardly' ... definition = cheap, mean, miserly, parsimonious, close-fisted, penny-pinching,cheeseparing, grasping, ungenerous, illiberal)

[JockPieandBeans]

Watching Cameron on the news reruns during the day has caused me to realized when he was conjuring up ways to describe the problem -- after he was stung earlier for using the term 'swarm' (oh gawd - not PC) he was walking back toughness... and his comment about the 'recognize the problem ' made me winch a bit -- as it was obvious by the tone - body language and words - he is totally out of touch with the problem -- it just does not register with his aloof status in life... he was having to work himself up to sound authoritative or in charge but could not summon up any good words or phrases ... I guess he caught a glimpse of himself as a reflection in the camera lens and forgot his rehearsed words... I think Britain needs a Donald Trump...

Rabbit in headlights.

Sadly Britain needs a lot more than a Donald Trump.

[JockPieandBeans]

1 A benefits regime that includes free healthcare & education, a requirement for local authorities to house anyone who is homeless and payments up to about 25,000 pounds per year depending on circumstances.

2 No requirement for anyone to carry id thus allowing a flourishing black economy that can employ illegal immigrants with impunity alongside the benefits culture.

3 A human rights culture that makes it more or less impossible for anyone to be deported once they have set foot in the UK, even if they commit atrocious crimes or engage in terrorism.

4 A multi-cultural ethos that teaches that all cultures are equal in validity and quality, and encourages immigrants to set up parallel communities that can re-create the living conditions of their homelands, but without the hassles that displaced them from there.

5 A left/liberal cultural guilt for colonialism/imperialism that shades into a xenophilia that always takes the position that "they" are victims and we are "brutes".

6 A legal system that penalises any criticism of minority groups as "hate speech", however unsavoury their behaviour.

7 A weak and vacillating government and a Prime Minister who always shifts with the prevailing wind, known even to his own party as Mr Slippery.

Etc, etc

I could go on; but why bother. Nothing will change until Britain becomes part of the Caliphate.

Oh, and the icing on the sugar: English is the dominant language, for now at least. Who wants to bother learning Norwegian or Finnish or Flemish? And English could in due course open the door to the US, Canada, Australia etc.

1) Illegal immigrants are not entitled to any of the benefits you have listed.

Even immigrants who have entered the UK legally are not entitled to any of these benefits until they have ILR, which takes at least 5 years residence plus other requirements, including passing the language and LitUK tests, to obtain. They can get NHS treatment, provided they have paid the £200 p.a. NHS surcharge in advance for the term of their visa or LTR.

2) All UK employers must, by law, establish that all potential employees are either a British citizen or, if not, have a visa or leave to remain which allows them to work in the UK. If they do employ someone who cannot legally work in the UK they can be fined up to £20,000 per illegal employee.

UKVI do check, and I often see their enforcement teams on my daily round.

3) Completely incorrect; foreign criminals are deported. Even someone who has ILR can be deported if they are sentenced to a prison term. Someone who has been naturalised as British can be stripped of that citizenship and deported if the crime is serious enough; e.g. terrorism.

4, 5 & 6) People of all cultures are, of course, entitled to practice that culture in the UK; provided they remain within the law. Just as you are in Thailand.

Criticism of anyone is obviously legal; hate speech is something different and illegal; regardless of the speaker and their target.

7) You might be right on this one.

These 'migrants' may believe as you do, but if they are successful in getting to the UK they will be sorely disappointed.

Living below the radar, or handing themselves into the state and being given a very minimal living allowance, we're not barbarians and wont let them starve, or, more likely, find themselves in a prison like Immigration Detention Centre until there case is decided upon.

Having said that, I have little sympathy with these so called migrants.

If they are genuine refugees then one must wonder why they have travelled across Europe to try and reach the UK instead of seeking asylum before reaching Calais.

But it must be remembered that people have died. Why are they willing to risk their lives to reach the UK? (Sensible suggestions welcome, but no ignorant rubbish like the quoted post above, please.)

I refer you to the UK Govt website https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get. (I am of course assuming that an illegal immigrant will have the intelligence to apply for asylum).

This states quite clearly:-

"You’ll be given somewhere to live if you need it. This could be in a flat, house, hostel or bed and breakfast."

"You’ll be able to collect money from a local post office each week. This will help you pay for things you need like food, clothing and toiletries.

The amount you get will depend on your situation." it then quotes various amounts from £290 per month for a married couple to £212 for someone under 16.

For the pregnant it states "You can apply for a one-off £300 maternity payment if your baby is due in 8 weeks or less, or if your baby is under 6 weeks old."

It also says:-

"You may get free National Health Service (NHS) healthcare, eg to see a doctor or get hospital treatment.

You’ll also get:

• free prescriptions for medicine
• free dental care for your teeth
• free eyesight tests
• help paying for glasses"

Ok it says "MAY get free National Health Service (NHS) healthcare" but unlike Thai hospitals the NHS will never turn anyone away.

Finally:-

"Your children must attend school if they are aged 5 to 17. All state schools are free and your children may be able to get free school meals."

I accept this is not a king's ransom, but for "the wretched of the earth" it constitues a pull factor that could ultimately prove unsustainable, to put it mildly. Bear in mind also that the UK is already over-crowded, there is a serious housing shortage, and both the NHS and education systems are already showing signs of being unable to cope with demand, let alone cost.

Do not confuse him with facts DoctorB.

He lives in a fantasy world, that bears no resemblance to reality.

As JDGRUEN says. Stand by for the racist and bigot comments.

[baboon]

Who is feeding these people, the Red Cross?

[Thian]

EU country's who accept asylumseekers get 36000 euro a year from Brussel for one person. That's why they won't send them back. It's pure business for the lefty's who would be out of job without them.

Thousands of asylumseekers arrive in Italy every week. All other EU members refuse to help Italy defending their coast or taking over those people. What is the EU worth if they even won't speak about solving those problems together as a union?

I think these people in calai would love to live in the Indian and Paki community's in the UK. I guess they see chances of making career there or get money on any other way. Those camps are there for more then 10 years now and the French never did anything to stop it. They even supply them drinking water.

Today they found a group of 140 afghanese walking on the highway in Germany. They drive 200 on the highsways there.

[simple1]

Briton must be paradise for them, they don't care for France or Europe.

What is attracting them so much? The sunny weather? Fish and chips? Beans on toast? Ladys with foul language?

1 A benefits regime that includes free healthcare & education, a requirement for local authorities to house anyone who is homeless and payments up to about 25,000 pounds per year depending on circumstances.

2 No requirement for anyone to carry id thus allowing a flourishing black economy that can employ illegal immigrants with impunity alongside the benefits culture.

3 A human rights culture that makes it more or less impossible for anyone to be deported once they have set foot in the UK, even if they commit atrocious crimes or engage in terrorism.

4 A multi-cultural ethos that teaches that all cultures are equal in validity and quality, and encourages immigrants to set up parallel communities that can re-create the living conditions of their homelands, but without the hassles that displaced them from there.

5 A left/liberal cultural guilt for colonialism/imperialism that shades into a xenophilia that always takes the position that "they" are victims and we are "brutes".

6 A legal system that penalises any criticism of minority groups as "hate speech", however unsavoury their behaviour.

7 A weak and vacillating government and a Prime Minister who always shifts with the prevailing wind, known even to his own party as Mr Slippery.

Etc, etc

I could go on; but why bother. Nothing will change until Britain becomes part of the Caliphate.

Oh, and the icing on the sugar: English is the dominant language, for now at least. Who wants to bother learning Norwegian or Finnish or Flemish? And English could in due course open the door to the US, Canada, Australia etc.

1) Illegal immigrants are not entitled to any of the benefits you have listed.

Even immigrants who have entered the UK legally are not entitled to any of these benefits until they have ILR, which takes at least 5 years residence plus other requirements, including passing the language and LitUK tests, to obtain. They can get NHS treatment, provided they have paid the £200 p.a. NHS surcharge in advance for the term of their visa or LTR.

2) All UK employers must, by law, establish that all potential employees are either a British citizen or, if not, have a visa or leave to remain which allows them to work in the UK. If they do employ someone who cannot legally work in the UK they can be fined up to £20,000 per illegal employee.

UKVI do check, and I often see their enforcement teams on my daily round.

3) Completely incorrect; foreign criminals are deported. Even someone who has ILR can be deported if they are sentenced to a prison term. Someone who has been naturalised as British can be stripped of that citizenship and deported if the crime is serious enough; e.g. terrorism.

4, 5 & 6) People of all cultures are, of course, entitled to practice that culture in the UK; provided they remain within the law. Just as you are in Thailand.

Criticism of anyone is obviously legal; hate speech is something different and illegal; regardless of the speaker and their target.

7) You might be right on this one.

These 'migrants' may believe as you do, but if they are successful in getting to the UK they will be sorely disappointed.

Living below the radar, or handing themselves into the state and being given a very minimal living allowance, we're not barbarians and wont let them starve, or, more likely, find themselves in a prison like Immigration Detention Centre until there case is decided upon.

Having said that, I have little sympathy with these so called migrants.

If they are genuine refugees then one must wonder why they have travelled across Europe to try and reach the UK instead of seeking asylum before reaching Calais.

But it must be remembered that people have died. Why are they willing to risk their lives to reach the UK? (Sensible suggestions welcome, but no ignorant rubbish like the quoted post above, please.)

I refer you to the UK Govt website https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get. (I am of course assuming that an illegal immigrant will have the intelligence to apply for asylum).

This states quite clearly:-

"You’ll be given somewhere to live if you need it. This could be in a flat, house, hostel or bed and breakfast."

"You’ll be able to collect money from a local post office each week. This will help you pay for things you need like food, clothing and toiletries.

The amount you get will depend on your situation." it then quotes various amounts from £290 per month for a married couple to £212 for someone under 16.

For the pregnant it states "You can apply for a one-off £300 maternity payment if your baby is due in 8 weeks or less, or if your baby is under 6 weeks old."

It also says:-

"You may get free National Health Service (NHS) healthcare, eg to see a doctor or get hospital treatment.

You’ll also get:

• free prescriptions for medicine
• free dental care for your teeth
• free eyesight tests
• help paying for glasses"

Ok it says "MAY get free National Health Service (NHS) healthcare" but unlike Thai hospitals the NHS will never turn anyone away.

Finally:-

"Your children must attend school if they are aged 5 to 17. All state schools are free and your children may be able to get free school meals."

I accept this is not a king's ransom, but for "the wretched of the earth" it constitues a pull factor that could ultimately prove unsustainable, to put it mildly. Bear in mind also that the UK is already over-crowded, there is a serious housing shortage, and both the NHS and education systems are already showing signs of being unable to cope with demand, let alone cost.

Illegal migrants are either those who have entered illegally or are visa over-stayers, with current numbers currently estimated anywhere between 450k to 800k+ (approx 300k visa over-stayers). So a hell of a lot who don't or cannot apply for asylum & do not qualify for welfare benefits.

Edited July 31, 2015 by simple1

[7by7]

DoctorB, I am well aware that asylum seekers are entitled to something, and said so.

As you must have missed it, here it is again: " handing themselves into the state and being given a very minimal living allowance, we're not barbarians and wont let them starve, or, more likely, find themselves in a prison like Immigration Detention Centre until there case is decided upon."

Maybe you should read all of a post before commenting upon it?

[7by7]

If the UK is such a soft touch as some believe, maybe someone can explain the following figures for asylum claims in 2014

1. Germany: 202,815
2. Sweden: 81,325
3. Italy: 64,625
4. France: 64,310
5. Hungary: 42,775
6. UK: 31,945

Table taken from Which EU countries had the most asylum seekers?

The UK is sixth in the table,; it seems we're not that attractive after all; certainly not as attractive as Germany with over 6 times as many applications as the UK!

[Credo]

If the UK is such a soft touch as some believe, maybe someone can explain the following figures for asylum claims in 2014

1. Germany: 202,815
2. Sweden: 81,325
3. Italy: 64,625
4. France: 64,310
5. Hungary: 42,775
6. UK: 31,945

Table taken from Which EU countries had the most asylum seekers?

The UK is sixth in the table,; it seems we're not that attractive after all; certainly not as attractive as Germany with over 6 times as many applications as the UK!

Those seeking asylum are one group, how many illegals not seeking asylum are in these countries?

Considering that the UK does have a body of water between it and the mainland of Europe, I would expect the numbers to be lower.

[JDGRUEN]

It is an amazing upside down world we live in today. Millions leave their homeland find a way to another country that is more attractive - jobs, benefits, etc. So they apply for asylum claiming whatever, or get a visa go there and overstay seemingly on purpose, or simply sneak in and stay... Happening in many places around the world. The vast majority exaggerate their circumstance, lie, cheat, break laws to achieve their end goal - being totally irresponsible. All the while the responsible portion of the world's societies get proper passports and visas and do not overstay in other countries. Plus they work, pay taxes and behave as responsible citizens.

YET as evidenced here on TVF and in news from around the world there is a substantial proportion of the population who not only want to excuse this massive display of irresponsibility but go further and feel sorry for them, campaign for better treatment for them, urge that more be let in, etc. And in the process whether conscious of it or not aid and abet the destruction of borders and sovereignty of the 'prize' nations that are sought out by the irresponsible. Plus creating even more burdens for the common citizen tax payer in the process.

What is really going on is the governments of countries being left by this swarm of people are quite happy about it because this mass emigration is a Steam Pop Off Valve. The pressure to reform and give proper treatment to the people of a particular country diminishes - no reforms necessary. The governments of these countries are no longer put into a position of behaving properly or risk civil war, or lose a civil war or revolution already in process. These countries just ship their discontented off to Western Europe, America, or places like Thailand.

These migrants, illegal aliens and 'asylum seekers' work -- take jobs and benefits from the residents of their new host countries and in general benefit greatly from the tax payers who shoulder the burden of their presence. Meanwhile, these migrants, illegal aliens and 'asylum seekers' send billions of Euros, Dollars, Baht, etc. back home to help their families and even further create another Steam Pop Off Valve to prevent reform back in the home countries. In the U.S. the illegal aliens - some 20 million of them send some 50 BILLION USD home to Mexico - with some it to Central American countries. This handy little nest egg allows the Mexican Government controlled by less than 40 wealthy families and some of the drug lords to remain in power indefinitely cheating the resident Mexican population of gaining any real say so about the destiny of their country.

BUT - somehow liberals-leftist-progressives around the world see all of this as OKAY... just let the swarms into the EU/U.K. And by the way ... 'can we allow more migrants into the country and give them more so we can make everything alright?' Never mind the train wreck these hoards and swarm of migrants are making to our culture and economy... never mind that citizen tax payers are cheated -- they need to give more -- so say we bleeding hearts...

Misguided and Misplaced compassion is making a very big mess of things

[otherstuff1957]

^ You forgot to mention that most governments will respond to their inability to control illegal immigration by making legal immigration even more difficult. I predict that the rules (for those who follow them) for bringing your Thai spouse to the UK or UK will become even more restrictive in the next few years.

[jpinx]

If the UK is such a soft touch as some believe, maybe someone can explain the following figures for asylum claims in 2014

1. Germany: 202,815
2. Sweden: 81,325
3. Italy: 64,625
4. France: 64,310
5. Hungary: 42,775
6. UK: 31,945

Table taken from Which EU countries had the most asylum seekers?

The UK is sixth in the table,; it seems we're not that attractive after all; certainly not as attractive as Germany with over 6 times as many applications as the UK!

Very good information to help keep things in perspective. One does have to be careful about extrapolating the numbers for illegal immigrants from the asylum seekers.

[7by7]

It is, of course, impossible to know how many illegal immigrants are in any one country at any one time; being illegal they are hidden from the authorities and therefore not counted!

Until they are found and arrested, of course.

I think it is safe to assume that many of those seeking asylum in a country either first entered that country illegally or have remained there beyond the validity of any entry clearance they may originally have had.

This certainly seems to be the case in Germany: Illegal immigration to Germany at record high - increase of 75 per cent in one year.

[PHP87]

I posted a link and story or two about this last night and they weren't puff pieces like this AP article.

These "immigrants" want to flood the UK to get free stuff and don't care about the people that live there.

They will basically end up turning the UK into a 3rd world country much like their's.

Immigrants like these drag countries down and not help them in any way.