Thorgal Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I think he won't get released again. That's it? :-o Wasn't this a hate crime (Sorry, HATE CRIME)? I would rather say it's a religious homophobic hate crime ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 A TROLL POST HAS BEEN REMOVED. Continue and suspensions will be given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) A horrible incident indeed, but don't lose sight of the fact of the bigger picture and that bigger picture is that Israel is the most advanced nation in the Middle East in GLBT civil rights BY FAR. Of course it's not the Netherlands and there is still a lot of work to do and there will always be some overly orthodox religious NUTJOBS that can't handle that. Legalizing same sex marriage in Israel will be difficult as long as marriage and family law is ruled by the religious rather than the secular. However same sex marriages done outside Israel can be registered and there is a legal mechanism where same sex couples are treated ALMOST equally to legally married in Israel couples. Like in a lot of countries, GLBT people who feel the need to live a more "out" existence more free of homophobia will flock to more tolerant urban centers if they exist and happily in Israel they DO exist. Jerusalem, not so much. Speaking of religious NUTJOBS, in the case of this stabber, I think this is literal. The guy must be literally be INSANE. Religious fervor and insanity are often closely linked. I don't think rabbis are telling him to murder gay people based on Judaic religious dogma. It's a different situation than among fundamentalist Christians and Muslims (more so) where some religious leaders are explicitly advocating and sometimes carrying out such murders based on sexual orientation status based on supposed "justification" in religious teachings. My personal understanding of extreme ultra-Orthodox intolerant of gays Jews (a minority of Jews) is that what they have traditionally done when a child turns out to be gay is to hold a ceremony as if the child was dead. So the child is expelled for life. Now, that is very, very horrible and arguably almost as bad as killing, but not quite, because it isn't ACTUAL murder. I have heard this tradition has been softened in recent years and there is a greater awareness of GLBT among the ultra-religious Jews ... so I don't know how often that horrible tradition is actually carried out anymore compared to the past. Hopefully, less, much less. Edited July 31, 2015 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggt Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Yishai Schlissel had been released from prison just three weeks ago, after serving a sentence for stabbing several people at the parade in 2005. Is it just me? Or, is something wrong with the timing of this release? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Here's something much more inspiring from that Jerusalem parade. This banner was in front the USA consulate which is near the event. "The US Consulate General proudly supports your right to love and live with dignity." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Yishai Schlissel had been released from prison just three weeks ago, after serving a sentence for stabbing several people at the parade in 2005. Is it just me? Or, is something wrong with the timing of this release? Very wrong but I reckon it was a coincidence. If they were going to release him right after the parade, so then what, he just waits until next year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 A horrible incident indeed, but don't lose sight of the fact of the bigger picture and that bigger picture is that Israel is the most advanced nation in the Middle East in GLBT civil rights BY FAR. Of course it's not the Netherlands and there is still a lot of work to do and there will always be some overly orthodox religious NUTJOBS that can't handle that. Legalizing same sex marriage in Israel will be difficult as long as marriage and family law is ruled by the religious rather than the secular. However same sex marriages done outside Israel can be registered and there is a legal mechanism where same sex couples are treated ALMOST equally to legally married in Israel couples. Like in a lot of countries, GLBT people who feel the need to live a more "out" existence more free of homophobia will flock to more tolerant urban centers if they exist and happily in Israel they DO exist. Jerusalem, not so much. Speaking of religious NUTJOBS, in the case of this stabber, I think this is literal. The guy must be literally be INSANE. Religious fervor and insanity are often closely linked. I don't think rabbis are telling him to murder gay people based on Judaic religious dogma. It's a different situation than among fundamentalist Christians and Muslims (more so) where some religious leaders are explicitly advocating and sometimes carrying out such murders based on sexual orientation status based on supposed "justification" in religious teachings. My personal understanding of extreme ultra-Orthodox intolerant of gays Jews (a minority of Jews) is that what they have traditionally done when a child turns out to be gay is to hold a ceremony as if the child was dead. So the child is expelled for life. Now, that is very, very horrible and arguably almost as bad as killing, but not quite, because it isn't ACTUAL murder. I have heard this tradition has been softened in recent years and there is a greater awareness of GLBT among the ultra-religious Jews ... so I don't know how often that horrible tradition is actually carried out anymore compared to the past. Hopefully, less, much less. You make some good observations. I doubt somehow there will be any need to find the Rabbi who radicalized the lunatic, or the synagogue where said radicalization took place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggold Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Some here have claimed that Israel is a democracy in which homosexuals live safely amongst a moderate society. :-? Not a word of that description of Israel is accurate. It is a LOT more accurate than any of the Muslim countries surrounding it, but any excuse to hate. Sorry, trying to find where this has anything to do with muslims. Perhaps I missed it.But it does say a lot about Israel when you are forced to lower expectations so much that all you have got is to compare it to extremist muslim areas. Not really a high hurdle to overcomebut does indicate how low Israel sets the bar. Reminds me of the but but but Thaksin brigade It must be a disappointment for you that Israel doesn't hang or throw their gay folk off tall building as in Iran or as ISIS do! One lone crazy and you paint the whole of Israel as the same. Obviously you don't know how to set the bar, or maybe your own is bar needs resetting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Set the bar or set the bar mitzvah. Groan. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lissos Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 ..but it doesn't belong in the street or shoved down kids' throats. Ha, this phrasing yet again. "shoving down throats" It always shows up on the discussion about Gay expression, from opponents. It conjures up an image of aggression and violation. "Hey, YOU. Go the Gay way two years from now, or the puppy gets it!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_boo Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 ..but it doesn't belong in the street or shoved down kids' throats.Ha, this phrasing yet again."shoving down throats" It always shows up on the discussion about Gay expression, from opponents. It conjures up an image of aggression and violation. "Hey, YOU. Go the Gay way two years from now, or the puppy gets it!!" It was a play on words... BTW I love gay guys (not THAT way). Less competition for the ladies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgal Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 It is interesting to note that the Israeli reaction to this hideous act is wall to wall condemnation. There is no attempt to blame anyone else for it, no dancing in the streets handing out sweets and no road or square will be named after the attacker, I wonder whether any of our esteemed members have noticed this? The stabber is guilty according to Israeli civil laws. But he's not guilty according to the Torah... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linky Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Here's something much more inspiring from that Jerusalem parade. This banner was in front the USA consulate which is near the event. 11825143_940778992631573_2285495191935185786_n (1).jpg "The US Consulate General proudly supports your right to love and live with dignity." I completely disagree with the US consulate putting up that banner. They should not be involved either for or against. Or do they only use the 'cannot interfere' line when it suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 It is interesting to note that the Israeli reaction to this hideous act is wall to wall condemnation. There is no attempt to blame anyone else for it, no dancing in the streets handing out sweets and no road or square will be named after the attacker, I wonder whether any of our esteemed members have noticed this?The stabber is guilty according to Israeli civil laws. But he's not guilty according to the Torah...Stop trolling, Judaism and Christianity have both undergone a reformation so that certain texts out of kilter with modern civilization have been near universally rejected, which is more than can be said for Islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgal Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Here's something much more inspiring from that Jerusalem parade. This banner was in front the USA consulate which is near the event. 11825143_940778992631573_2285495191935185786_n (1).jpg "The US Consulate General proudly supports your right to love and live with dignity." I completely disagree with the US consulate putting up that banner. They should not be involved either for or against. Or do they only use the 'cannot interfere' line when it suits. Exactly, it's completely contradictory to the Jewish religious laws.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I see a number of posters wish to bait other members into an off-topic discussion. It will result in suspensions. I suggest you stay on the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgal Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) It is interesting to note that the Israeli reaction to this hideous act is wall to wall condemnation. There is no attempt to blame anyone else for it, no dancing in the streets handing out sweets and no road or square will be named after the attacker, I wonder whether any of our esteemed members have noticed this?The stabber is guilty according to Israeli civil laws. But he's not guilty according to the Torah...Stop trolling, Judaism and Christianity have both undergone a reformation so that certain texts out of kilter with modern civilization have been near universally rejected, which is more than can be said for Islam.Perhaps you should consider the own words of the stabber who made some statements:Quote from link : "I do not accept this court's authority. This court does not follow the rules of the holy Torah. This court is part of the mechanism of evil. I have no interest in cooperating at all. I do not recognize any of the regime's institutions." http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2015/07/-haredi-gay-pride-stabber-rejects-authority-of-the-court-as-police-say-it-wasnt-their-job-to-monitor-678.html Again as I posted before : The stabber is guilty according to Israeli civil laws. But he's not guilty according to the Torah... Edited July 31, 2015 by Thorgal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Some here have claimed that Israel is a democracy in which homosexuals live safely amongst a moderate society. :-? Not a word of that description of Israel is accurate. You just had to get a dig in at Israel didn't you? Israel like some Scandanavian countries places a high emphasis on rehabilitation and reintegration into society of offenders and the mentally ill. 10 years in custody is a long time for a stabbing by western standards. If the penalty phases is up, then its up. The prison system couldn't hold this wacko unless certified as insane and obviously no mental health specialist did that. There is no doubt that the man was mentally ill. When crazies stab people at other events around the world do you make the same claims? The fact is that homosexuals in Israel certainly are safe and certainly have a much easier time than in any of their surrounding countries, including some European countries such as Bulgaria, Romania, the former Yugoslavia, the Baltic republics, Poland, Hungary etc. Instead of trying to find a way to to criticize Israel under the guise of polite discourse, why not just say that you hate Israel and you don't like jews? You could just copy and paste on any thread related to Israel. Edited July 31, 2015 by geriatrickid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 It is interesting to note that the Israeli reaction to this hideous act is wall to wall condemnation. There is no attempt to blame anyone else for it, no dancing in the streets handing out sweets and no road or square will be named after the attacker, I wonder whether any of our esteemed members have noticed this?The stabber is guilty according to Israeli civil laws. But he's not guilty according to the Torah...Stop trolling, Judaism and Christianity have both undergone a reformation so that certain texts out of kilter with modern civilization have been near universally rejected, which is more than can be said for Islam.Perhaps you should consider the own words of the stabber who made some statements:Quote from link : "I do not accept this court's authority. This court does not follow the rules of the holy Torah. This court is part of the mechanism of evil. I have no interest in cooperating at all. I do not recognize any of the regime's institutions." http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2015/07/-haredi-gay-pride-stabber-rejects-authority-of-the-court-as-police-say-it-wasnt-their-job-to-monitor-678.html Again as I posted before : The stabber is guilty according to Israeli civil laws. But he's not guilty according to the Torah... Not only are you an expert on all things Israeli now, you are also a self appointed expert in Talmudic law. Amazing!! The references you make are this assailant's interpretation of the bible. There are many people who take a literal interpretation of the bible, the Koran, the chronicles of Satan etc. That doesn't make their interpretation correct. The underlying principle in Judaism is that the taking of a life or the attempt thereat in the manner that this assailant did is wrong. It is not open to discussion. It is wrong. Even the holy rollers acknowledge that. It is obvious that he is mentally unfit. Yet you take his words as the gospel truth. You do that because it fits your requirement to indict Israel and its jews. If you had any sense of justice, any bit of intellectual integrity you would recognize that this assailant is deranged and talking like the wacko that he is. He needs treatment. If he cannot refrain from attacking people, then he will need to be forcefully treated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neurath Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 It is interesting to note that the Israeli reaction to this hideous act is wall to wall condemnation. There is no attempt to blame anyone else for it, no dancing in the streets handing out sweets and no road or square will be named after the attacker, I wonder whether any of our esteemed members have noticed this?The stabber is guilty according to Israeli civil laws. But he's not guilty according to the Torah...Stop trolling, Judaism and Christianity have both undergone a reformation so that certain texts out of kilter with modern civilization have been near universally rejected, which is more than can be said for Islam. True enough. They rejected those "certain texts" and at the same time reject Darwin's evolution by natural selection. Take your point though: in many respect Islam is practiced in an appallingly vicious fashion, actively encouraging violence against gays. The general stance toward gay people is like that of some predominantly Christian African countries. I think there is the death penalty in Zimbabwe and, at the very least, violent intolerance in Uganda and Kenya. In this company and in this respect, Israel stands out as wonderfully tolerant and socially progressive. Good for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
losworld Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Some here have claimed that Israel is a democracy in which homosexuals live safely amongst a moderate society. :-? Not a word of that description of Israel is accurate. It is a LOT more accurate than any of the Muslim countries surrounding it, but any excuse to hate. Don't twist things UG. Let's not drag Muslims into this too. He is merely making a point that Israel is not all it seems. Anyone watching the news can see there is a lot of prejudice against blacks in Israel. Now this incident with gays. They need to clean up their act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lissos Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Don't twist things UG. Let's not drag Muslims into this too. He is merely making a point that Israel is not all it seems. Anyone watching the news can see there is a lot of prejudice against blacks in Israel. Now this incident with gays. They need to clean up their act. There is widespread prejudice against Blacks, Pakistanis, Chinese, Somalians, Caucasians (yes), Homosexuals, and all manner of subjects among people in developed nations. The only 'real' difference IMO? Legislation works to come down like a ton of bricks upon those who dare voice what they actually / really feel, at work, in public, online, in our nations. That is not a victory over prejudice, that is just one heavy carpet covering dust. Israelis tend to say what they think. Famous for it, infact. Dugri. Straight talk / tell me what you 'really' think, no bull doo doo. The honesty is appreciated, even if the answer is bruising / inconvenient. The results are very often grating. Dhimmi nations (in another sense) fume at that. People in our nations may think similar, but they know the axe looms above them so they don't express it. We pretend all is well. It ain't. Facade of 'unity'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) Some here have claimed that Israel is a democracy in which homosexuals live safely amongst a moderate society. :-? Not a word of that description of Israel is accurate. It is a LOT more accurate than any of the Muslim countries surrounding it, but any excuse to hate. Don't twist things UG. Let's not drag Muslims into this too. He is merely making a point that Israel is not all it seems. Anyone watching the news can see there is a lot of prejudice against blacks in Israel. Now this incident with gays. They need to clean up their act. I'm sure Israel will get on just fine without the hypocritical sermonizing from those who can't abide its existence. Here we have the chief orthodox Rabbi of Jerusalem visiting the victims in hospital. Can you imagine the chief Iman of Al-Azhar university in Cairo visiting Muslim gays in hospital who had been attacked and repudiating the notion Islam had any sanction against gay people as the rabbi did for Talmudic law? The answer is no because Islamic jurisprudence hasn't progressed further than debating whether homosexuals should be stoned to death, thrown off a tall building or both.http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/192612/jerusalems-chief-rabbi-visits-victim-of-gay-pride-parade-stabbing Edited August 1, 2015 by Steely Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Yes exactly, and a lot of people are surprised that Netanyahu has been the most pro gay civil rights PM in the history of Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simple1 Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Although a long way to go, no one has pointed out same-sex sexual intercourse is legal in 19 Muslim majority countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) Although a long way to go, no one has pointed out same-sex sexual intercourse is legal in 19 Muslim majority countries. Sure thing, buster, the Muslim world a beacon of gay civil rights. You failed to mention the very high percentage of Muslim countries (about 47 Muslim majority countries in total?) where homosexuality is criminalized even by death. Nice try. No rainbow flag. Also decriminalizing sex acts is a basic first step. That says nothing about discrimination laws and practices. Trying to pass off the Muslim world as a safe and friendly place for GLBT people is a non-starter. That would be great but it isn't so. Edited August 1, 2015 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
up-country_sinclair Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Isn't it curious that the usual suspects make post after post after post about Islam, Muslims and Arabic countries in a thread entitled, "Man stabs several people at Jerusalem gay pride parade"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simple1 Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Although a long way to go, no one has pointed out same-sex sexual intercourse is legal in 19 Muslim majority countries. Sure thing, buster, the Muslim world a beacon of gay civil rights. You failed to mention the very high percentage of Muslim countries where homosexuality is criminalized even by death. Nice try. No rainbow flag. Also decriminalizing sex acts is a basic first step. That says nothing about discrimination laws and practices. Trying to pass off the Muslim world as a safe and friendly place for GLBT people is a non-starter. That would be great but it isn't so. In the same manner you often request, kindly cease false narrative. I did not claim nor attempt to claim "the Muslim world a beacon of gay civil rights" or "pass off the Muslim world as a safe and friendly place for GLBT people". Only that in 19 Muslim majority countries same-sex sexual intercourse is legal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) Although a long way to go, no one has pointed out same-sex sexual intercourse is legal in 19 Muslim majority countries. Sure thing, buster, the Muslim world a beacon of gay civil rights. You failed to mention the very high percentage of Muslim countries where homosexuality is criminalized even by death. Nice try. No rainbow flag. Also decriminalizing sex acts is a basic first step. That says nothing about discrimination laws and practices. Trying to pass off the Muslim world as a safe and friendly place for GLBT people is a non-starter. That would be great but it isn't so. In the same manner you often request, kindly cease false narrative. I did not claim nor attempt to claim "the Muslim world a beacon of gay civil rights" or "pass off the Muslim world as a safe and friendly place for GLBT people". Only that in 19 Muslim majority countries same-sex sexual intercourse is legal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam Dude, GLBT civil rights are about a lot more than sex acts. I also believe your post was done to intentionally MISLEAD by mentioning the number of Muslim countries that further your absurd narrative and failing to mention the higher number that didn't. Readers can decide. I suggest you not reply to this as we've both had our say on this off topic matter that you introduced. Edited August 1, 2015 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simple1 Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Although a long way to go, no one has pointed out same-sex sexual intercourse is legal in 19 Muslim majority countries. Sure thing, buster, the Muslim world a beacon of gay civil rights. You failed to mention the very high percentage of Muslim countries where homosexuality is criminalized even by death. Nice try. No rainbow flag. Also decriminalizing sex acts is a basic first step. That says nothing about discrimination laws and practices. Trying to pass off the Muslim world as a safe and friendly place for GLBT people is a non-starter. That would be great but it isn't so. In the same manner you often request, kindly cease false narrative. I did not claim nor attempt to claim "the Muslim world a beacon of gay civil rights" or "pass off the Muslim world as a safe and friendly place for GLBT people". Only that in 19 Muslim majority countries same-sex sexual intercourse is legal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam Dude, GLBT civil rights are about a lot more than sex acts. Agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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