samsung99 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 I actually managed to buy a house and will register the land in a thai name (GF) which will grant me a usufruct for life. It's still a couple of months to go until the title deed will be handed over and some open questions remain. If any of you made some real life experience with registering a usefruct in Pattaya, then I would be very thankful if you could share me some information on this. 1) Which year did you managed to get a usufruct in Pattaya? 2) Since it is in the discretion of the land officer (or the head off) it is said that an envelope has to be handed over to motivate him to do the work. Did this work for you, how big was this enveloppe? A couple of thousands, or...? 3) A lawyer told me that a virtual "rent" has to be put in place that I have to pay to the one who grants the usefruct to me (in this case my gf). IS this true? is this "rent" or payment taxed? 4) Any other advice, experience, or lessons learned that your willing to share? Thanks a lot to all of you in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 An usufruct is an international standard of property transfer used in many countries: Not Pattaya, Chiang Mai, but rules should be at least similar: Year, this year. No envelope, it cost 78 baht to record the usufruct. The usufruct states, "at no rent". Other points often not understood by casual visitors to Thailand: The holder of an usufruct has the right to live in the property for life AND to determine who else may or may not live there also, a point many people miss. The chanotte holder cannot sell the property until the usufruct has expired. Usufruct holders may lease their property, for their benefit. http://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/Usufructs.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverSure Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Just brilliant I tell ya. I know a guy who did all of this right and had it sewn up for life. That is until his now ex girlfriend's "brothers" showed up and convinced him that a new "health" issue demanded that he clear out and not come back - ever. The GF sold the house and what is he to do when he doesn't dare even go around there? We don't have the same rule of law or other protections in LOS as we do in our home countries. If there was a sure-fire way to own a house in Thailand for life it would be done every day but it isn't. Some guys just think they do - for now. "Don't invest anything in Thailand you aren't prepared to walk away from." Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Just brilliant I tell ya. I know a guy who did all of this right and had it sewn up for life. That is until his now ex girlfriend's "brothers" showed up and convinced him that a new "health" issue demanded that he clear out and not come back - ever. The GF sold the house and what is he to do when he doesn't dare even go around there? We don't have the same rule of law or other protections in LOS as we do in our home countries. If there was a sure-fire way to own a house in Thailand for life it would be done every day but it isn't. Some guys just think they do - for now. "Don't invest anything in Thailand you aren't prepared to walk away from." Cheers. Another bar stool story from somebody who not only doesn't have first hand experience of the issue but also doesn't live in Thailand, never has and one who takes every opportunity to bash any aspect of Thailand that he can get. "If there was a sure-fire way to own a house in Thailand for life it would be done every day but it isn't". How do you know it isn't, if you talk to people at any Land Office they'll tell you it's a very common occurrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fang37 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 In theory, usufruct - obvious choice. In practice, its practical use is when emotions are running high. Having same also puts a question on the relationship for the female. I do not have one - a reasonable cost home - > USD200k. I will walk. BUT, I have been in the relationship 11 years before we built, Before, we had a condo in my name. Do I feel nervous? No. I know one farang who went to court. Would he have usufruct again? No. It is definitely an "up to you" scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robblok Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Just brilliant I tell ya. I know a guy who did all of this right and had it sewn up for life. That is until his now ex girlfriend's "brothers" showed up and convinced him that a new "health" issue demanded that he clear out and not come back - ever. The GF sold the house and what is he to do when he doesn't dare even go around there? We don't have the same rule of law or other protections in LOS as we do in our home countries. If there was a sure-fire way to own a house in Thailand for life it would be done every day but it isn't. Some guys just think they do - for now. "Don't invest anything in Thailand you aren't prepared to walk away from." Cheers. Another bar stool story from somebody who not only doesn't have first hand experience of the issue but also doesn't live in Thailand, never has and one who takes every opportunity to bash any aspect of Thailand that he can get. "If there was a sure-fire way to own a house in Thailand for life it would be done every day but it isn't". How do you know it isn't, if you talk to people at any Land Office they'll tell you it's a very common occurrence. N.S. Could not cut it here and now he needs to justify that.. nothing new here seen it often. I know of a guy in the US who had his family killed in one of the many mass shootings. Now does that mean the US is a bad place ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i claudius Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Lets face it anywhere in the world you could get threatened by the family of your wife or ,girlfriend, not just here in Thailand it all depends on your relationship, i could not imagine my wife's family threatening me,as we have been a family so long,I have known her brothers since they were teenagers. But if you have only been with someone a year or two and hardly know her family it can be a different story,but as I said that can apply anywhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topt Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 OP I did this some years ago - 1) Which year did you managed to get a usufruct in Pattaya? 2) Since it is in the discretion of the land officer (or the head off) it is said that an envelope has to be handed over to motivate him to do the work. Did this work for you, how big was this enveloppe? A couple of thousands, or...? 3) A lawyer told me that a virtual "rent" has to be put in place that I have to pay to the one who grants the usefruct to me (in this case my gf). IS this true? is this "rent" or payment taxed? 4) Any other advice, experience, or lessons learned that your willing to share? 1 - 2010 2 - Head of land office did not want to do on same day as title changed hands - until some discussions were had and an envelope for 10k was passed over - could it have only needed 5k, no idea?. The guy was suggesting it could be done a week or 2 later but I wanted it sorted there and then. Pattaya was renowned for being difficult in this regard but do not know if it has got better. 3 - No 4 - Used Isaan law (Sebastien) and they sent a Thai junior lawyer to help but note still had issue above. I also put in place various other agreements with the gf (using the lawyer) such that theoretically if house gets sold she pays me back the money etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugh2121 Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Interesting. Land office in Pattaya told me they did not issue usufruct under any circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louse1953 Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Just brilliant I tell ya. I know a guy who did all of this right and had it sewn up for life. That is until his now ex girlfriend's "brothers" showed up and convinced him that a new "health" issue demanded that he clear out and not come back - ever. The GF sold the house and what is he to do when he doesn't dare even go around there? We don't have the same rule of law or other protections in LOS as we do in our home countries. If there was a sure-fire way to own a house in Thailand for life it would be done every day but it isn't. Some guys just think they do - for now. "Don't invest anything in Thailand you aren't prepared to walk away from." Cheers. It always pays to have "protection" a phone call away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LennyW Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Lots of discussions about Usufructs in the real estate forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddinChonburi Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Yes many mysterious deaths here in Thailand, who is next ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieH Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 moved to Real Estate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Yes many mysterious deaths here in Thailand, who is next ? Probably not the holder of an ufustruct since that would point to cause straight away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samsung99 Posted August 9, 2015 Author Share Posted August 9, 2015 Thanks for the answers so far regarding usefruct. Im ignoring the usual suspects pointing out that my life is at danger.... I did my homeworks and can manage the risks quite well... Back to the topic: I also heard that usefructs get more difficult to register in Pattaya, therefore an envelope might be the key... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Hill Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Only a fool buys house/land and registers it in a GF's name. The the OP's still considering it when he has to grease someone's palm makes it all the more ridiculous Just buy a condo for God's sake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Only a fool buys house/land and registers it in a GF's name. The the OP's still considering it when he has to grease someone's palm makes it all the more ridiculous Just buy a condo for God's sake "Only a fool buys house/land and registers it in a GF's name". Why? Within the boundaries of a discussion of usufruct that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samsung99 Posted August 9, 2015 Author Share Posted August 9, 2015 Only a fool buys house/land and registers it in a GF's name. The the OP's still considering it when he has to grease someone's palm makes it all the more ridiculous Just buy a condo for God's sake You know what a usefruct is You don't know what a usefruct is So continue to enjoy living in your shoebox and let others enjoy their live as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEVUP Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 An usufruct is an international standard of property transfer used in many countries: Not Pattaya, Chiang Mai, but rules should be at least similar: Year, this year. No envelope, it cost 78 baht to record the usufruct. The usufruct states, "at no rent". Other points often not understood by casual visitors to Thailand: The holder of an usufruct has the right to live in the property for life AND to determine who else may or may not live there also, a point many people miss. The chanotte holder cannot sell the property until the usufruct has expired. Usufruct holders may lease their property, for their benefit. http://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/Usufructs.php Looked at siam & also looked at actual thai land laws - Siam says cant sell , but im sure Thai laws says can since usufrut gives you use no say in chaanute Brings me to the point that the place i resided in had a chanute on the title ( in my name) but was being sold as i was standing right in front of propective buyers asking where the bounderies were . So could any one please explain that one as to why the house could be sold Maybe some how removed Usufrut - Chanute changed hands to loan shark (maybe had contacts to be able to sell) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaeJoMTB Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Only a fool buys house/land and registers it in a GF's name. The the OP's still considering it when he has to grease someone's palm makes it all the more ridiculous Just buy a condo for God's sake "Only a fool buys house/land and registers it in a GF's name". Why? Within the boundaries of a discussion of usufruct that is. SCB bought a house in my wife's name. I pay the home loan repayments. If I live with her until I'm 86, she will have a free house and be able to throw me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 An usufruct is an international standard of property transfer used in many countries: Not Pattaya, Chiang Mai, but rules should be at least similar: Year, this year. No envelope, it cost 78 baht to record the usufruct. The usufruct states, "at no rent". Other points often not understood by casual visitors to Thailand: The holder of an usufruct has the right to live in the property for life AND to determine who else may or may not live there also, a point many people miss. The chanotte holder cannot sell the property until the usufruct has expired. Usufruct holders may lease their property, for their benefit. http://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/Usufructs.php Looked at siam & also looked at actual thai land laws - Siam says cant sell , but im sure Thai laws says can since usufrut gives you use no say in chaanute Brings me to the point that the place i resided in had a chanute on the title ( in my name) but was being sold as i was standing right in front of propective buyers asking where the bounderies were . So could any one please explain that one as to why the house could be sold Maybe some how removed Usufrut - Chanute changed hands to loan shark (maybe had contacts to be able to sell) Your post is too confused on all points to know where to begin, sorry, perhaps others can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Only a fool buys house/land and registers it in a GF's name. The the OP's still considering it when he has to grease someone's palm makes it all the more ridiculous Just buy a condo for God's sake "Only a fool buys house/land and registers it in a GF's name". Why? Within the boundaries of a discussion of usufruct that is. SCB bought a house in my wife's name. I pay the home loan repayments. If I live with her until I'm 86, she will have a free house and be able to throw me out. The discussion is about Usufruct and these expire on death of the holder, I'm confused as to what your age 86 has to do with anything. EDIT: unless you actually bought a 30 year lease, which is not an usufurct, in which case, oh well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaeJoMTB Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 The discussion is about Usufruct and these expire on death of the holder, I'm confused as to what your age 86 has to do with anything. EDIT: unless you actually bought a 30 year lease, which is not an usufurct, in which case, oh well! The point is, I'm 60 and I don't know any foreigner older than 74 in Thailand. Dead men need no home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 The discussion is about Usufruct and these expire on death of the holder, I'm confused as to what your age 86 has to do with anything. EDIT: unless you actually bought a 30 year lease, which is not an usufurct, in which case, oh well! The point is, I'm 60 and I don't know any foreigner older than 74 in Thailand. Dead men need no home. Case in point: I'm older than you by a few years and I've been with my girlfriend/wife for over ten years, I bought our house and I hold an usufruct on it. As things stand today my girlfriend is the beneficiary of a large part o\f my will, the house forms a part of that willed value, I simply exchanged cash for real estate and left the willed amounts the same. If things work out well we'll both enjoy a pleasant home for many years, if I die tomorrow my will objects have been met. If my girlfriend should turn rogue, my right to abode is protected by law. In the event of the above, methinks that an offer of 10% of the sale value might tempt my current ms. right to comply, if I really wanted to get out. Let's face it, I might live for another 30 years and that's got to be a daunting prospect to a younger Thai female. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEVUP Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Usufruct agreements in Thailand.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Usufruct agreements in Thailand.pdf I believe the above PDF may be marketing material and not a true legal view, regardless, there are some good points contained in it although many appear subjective. It should be noted that the document is dated 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Only a fool buys house/land and registers it in a GF's name. The the OP's still considering it when he has to grease someone's palm makes it all the more ridiculous Just buy a condo for God's sake "Only a fool buys house/land and registers it in a GF's name". Why? Within the boundaries of a discussion of usufruct that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgemandm Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Just brilliant I tell ya. I know a guy who did all of this right and had it sewn up for life. That is until his now ex girlfriend's "brothers" showed up and convinced him that a new "health" issue demanded that he clear out and not come back - ever. The GF sold the house and what is he to do when he doesn't dare even go around there? We don't have the same rule of law or other protections in LOS as we do in our home countries. If there was a sure-fire way to own a house in Thailand for life it would be done every day but it isn't. Some guys just think they do - for now. "Don't invest anything in Thailand you aren't prepared to walk away from." Cheers. True Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topt Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 An usufruct is an international standard of property transfer used in many countries: Not Pattaya, Chiang Mai, but rules should be at least similar: Year, this year. No envelope, it cost 78 baht to record the usufruct. The usufruct states, "at no rent". Other points often not understood by casual visitors to Thailand: The holder of an usufruct has the right to live in the property for life AND to determine who else may or may not live there also, a point many people miss. The chanotte holder cannot sell the property until the usufruct has expired. Usufruct holders may lease their property, for their benefit. http://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/Usufructs.php Looked at siam & also looked at actual thai land laws - Siam says cant sell , but im sure Thai laws says can since usufrut gives you use no say in chaanute Brings me to the point that the place i resided in had a chanute on the title ( in my name) but was being sold as i was standing right in front of propective buyers asking where the bounderies were . So could any one please explain that one as to why the house could be sold Maybe some how removed Usufrut - Chanute changed hands to loan shark (maybe had contacts to be able to sell) Your post is too confused on all points to know where to begin, sorry, perhaps others can help. First point is incorrect. The registered owner can sell the house but the usufruct stays in place (with your name on the chanote) so in most cases nobody is going to want to buy it as you still have the right to live there and, most importantly, say who else can live there. Only the land office can remove that and theoretically you would have to agree (or die) for that to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samsung99 Posted August 9, 2015 Author Share Posted August 9, 2015 Life is risky, so everyone has to decide if he or she wants to marry, drive a car, drink, take drugs or whatever.At then end its always a compromise on how much risk you want to take. When it comes to house"ownership" then in my opinion a usefruct is the safest legal way to "own" a house for the rest of your life. Anyone successfull in registering a usefruct in Pattaya after 2010? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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