Paiboon shrugs off Thaksin's charter jibes

[scorecard]

"On Friday during a trip to Finland, Thaksin criticised the charter draft as the "worst draft in terms of democracy''.

What this man knows about Democracy, could easily fit on the back of a Postage stamp!

The Red Shirts won 4 elections in a row. and, please, let's not re-run that Taksin bought elections. That would put you in the company of those in the US who can "prove" Obama was born in Kenya and, to pick another example that the English Admiralty allowed the Germans to sink the Lusitania. They're nutters and surely you wouldn't wish to be associated with them.

Total rubbish, next.

[Srikcir]

I saw nothing wrong with the last Constitution, it was voted on and passed by "the people" .

Read it, it removed the protection for elected officials and made them responsible for their actions in office.

Those of you criticizing the new constitution need to read the last constitution. It is available online in both Thai and English. What I can not find is a copy of the new proposed constitution.

My copy is without the latest amendments accepted by the NRC.

2015 Draft Constitution.pdf

One of the most serious changes in the 2015 draft from the 2007 Constitution was a change in Part 13, "Right to Protect the Constitution," Article 68:

“No person shall exercise the rights and liberties prescribed in the Constitution to overthrow the democratic regime of government with the King as Head of State under this Constitution or to acquire the power to rule the country by any means which is not in accordance with the modes provided in this Constitution.“

This provision does not exist in the 2015 draft Constitution. However, the Junta has not amended the Organic Law, Article 113 of the Criminal Code that states, "Anybody who commits treason by overthrowing the country's constitution faces the maximum penalty of death."

[Eric Loh]

Paiboon does have a point. Nothing to gain for Thaksin as all the gains are skewed heavily on the side of the establishment and their military handyman. If 1997 was a people charter, this will be the establishment charter gift wrapped by the junta.

Well the 'people's charter' of 1997 (who worked on it by the way?) was improved in the 2007 version and a better approach to reforms would have been a further improvement on the 2007 version.

To call the new charter an 'establishment' version only seems to try to suggest something bad without feeling the need to explain.

BTW how does the 'establishment' version compare to the one you have in Singapore?

Is there any comparison of a constitution that was written in August 9 1965 and stood the test of time and acknowledged by global peers as successful democratic city state compare with the current junta draft which is taking away people ability to decide their leaders. And you need explanation. Time to change your bifocal, Rubi. By the way, every each time the constitution was shredded and re-written, it is always by the military following a coup. Suggest to me that the establishment and their military henchman just will not relinquish power to the people and this current draft is written with that in mind.

[Baerboxer]

"On Friday during a trip to Finland, Thaksin criticised the charter draft as the "worst draft in terms of democracy''.

What this man knows about Democracy, could easily fit on the back of a Postage stamp!

The Red Shirts won 4 elections in a row. and, please, let's not re-run that Taksin bought elections. That would put you in the company of those in the US who can "prove" Obama was born in Kenya and, to pick another example that the English Admiralty allowed the Germans to sink the Lusitania. They're nutters and surely you wouldn't wish to be associated with them.

You can check on the number of elections Thaksin owned political parties have won, the name of the party at the time, and how those parties all seem to have a history of breaking the law. You can also read the comments about vote manipulations and illegal election practices from various parties.

You might want to read up on the latest writings from historians regarding the Lusitania tragedy. Released papers show some admiralty warnings of U-boat activity in the area were not passed onto merchant / passenger shipping - on the orders of Churchill, although why is speculative. There is still debate as to what caused the second explosion survivors reported, which was also logged by the U-boat commander who only fired one torpedo.

No idea, or interest about Obama. Except he's often referred to as African-American or "black" yet his mother was a white Kansas lady.

[yuv06]

Paiboon does have a point. Nothing to gain for Thaksin as all the gains are skewed heavily on the side of the establishment and their military handyman. If 1997 was a people charter, this will be the establishment charter gift wrapped by the junta.

Well the 'people's charter' of 1997 (who worked on it by the way?) was improved in the 2007 version and a better approach to reforms would have been a further improvement on the 2007 version.

To call the new charter an 'establishment' version only seems to try to suggest something bad without feeling the need to explain.

BTW how does the 'establishment' version compare to the one you have in Singapore?

Is there any comparison of a constitution that was written in August 9 1965 and stood the test of time and acknowledged by global peers as successful democratic city state compare with the current junta draft which is taking away people ability to decide their leaders. And you need explanation. Time to change your bifocal, Rubi. By the way, every each time the constitution was shredded and re-written, it is always by the military following a coup. Suggest to me that the establishment and their military henchman just will not relinquish power to the people and this current draft is written with that in mind.

Mr Loh I think you need to check out your own countries freedom even when Thailand had martial law it was freer than Singapore!

BTW the military keeps the dirty hands of politicians off the cookie jar and we are lucky to a an independent military that keeps those crooks in check. Unlike Singapore the military is totally controlled by the government by promoting their own selected people of inner circle to make sure they are and will always run the country by 1 party rule. I heard their pays are outrages it's kind of a legal bribe.

[tbthailand]

Paiboon does have a point. Nothing to gain for Thaksin as all the gains are skewed heavily on the side of the establishment and their military handyman. If 1997 was a people charter, this will be the establishment charter gift wrapped by the junta.

Well the 'people's charter' of 1997 (who worked on it by the way?) was improved in the 2007 version and a better approach to reforms would have been a further improvement on the 2007 version.

To call the new charter an 'establishment' version only seems to try to suggest something bad without feeling the need to explain.

BTW how does the 'establishment' version compare to the one you have in Singapore?

Is there any comparison of a constitution that was written in August 9 1965 and stood the test of time and acknowledged by global peers as successful democratic city state compare with the current junta draft which is taking away people ability to decide their leaders. And you need explanation. Time to change your bifocal, Rubi. By the way, every each time the constitution was shredded and re-written, it is always by the military following a coup. Suggest to me that the establishment and their military henchman just will not relinquish power to the people and this current draft is written with that in mind.

Mr Loh I think you need to check out your own countries freedom even when Thailand had martial law it was freer than Singapore!

BTW the military keeps the dirty hands of politicians off the cookie jar and we are lucky to a an independent military that keeps those crooks in check. Unlike Singapore the military is totally controlled by the government by promoting their own selected people of inner circle to make sure they are and will always run the country by 1 party rule. I heard their pays are outrages it's kind of a legal bribe.

we are lucky to a an independent military that keeps those crooks in check.

that's one way to look at it.

but even if "true" and ignoring the long-standing history of military corruption, it still does nothing for democracy. The generals are the ones who keep tearing up constitutions, right?

In every functioning democracy in the world today - and there are plenty of examples, the military is under civilian control, ie; control of the elected government, and those militaries are forbidden from acting in politics in any way. In my country, the military is not even allowed to be active within the borders of the USA.

Edited August 17, 2015 by tbthailand

[yuv06]

we are lucky to a an independent military that keeps those crooks in check.

that's one way to look at it.

but even if "true" and ignoring the long-standing history of military corruption, it still does nothing for democracy. The generals are the ones who keep tearing up constitutions, right?

In every functioning democracy in the world today - and there are plenty of examples, the military is under civilian control, ie; control of the elected government, and those militaries are forbidden from acting in politics in any way. In my country, the military is not even allowed to be active within the borders of the USA.

Military corruption if any is puny compared with politicians!

BTW if your government starts killing it's own people lets see weather how long the military in your own county will hold out before they take matters into their own hands!

[Eric Loh]

Paiboon does have a point. Nothing to gain for Thaksin as all the gains are skewed heavily on the side of the establishment and their military handyman. If 1997 was a people charter, this will be the establishment charter gift wrapped by the junta.

Well the 'people's charter' of 1997 (who worked on it by the way?) was improved in the 2007 version and a better approach to reforms would have been a further improvement on the 2007 version.

To call the new charter an 'establishment' version only seems to try to suggest something bad without feeling the need to explain.

BTW how does the 'establishment' version compare to the one you have in Singapore?

Is there any comparison of a constitution that was written in August 9 1965 and stood the test of time and acknowledged by global peers as successful democratic city state compare with the current junta draft which is taking away people ability to decide their leaders. And you need explanation. Time to change your bifocal, Rubi. By the way, every each time the constitution was shredded and re-written, it is always by the military following a coup. Suggest to me that the establishment and their military henchman just will not relinquish power to the people and this current draft is written with that in mind.

Mr Loh I think you need to check out your own countries freedom even when Thailand had martial law it was freer than Singapore!

BTW the military keeps the dirty hands of politicians off the cookie jar and we are lucky to a an independent military that keeps those crooks in check. Unlike Singapore the military is totally controlled by the government by promoting their own selected people of inner circle to make sure they are and will always run the country by 1 party rule. I heard their pays are outrages it's kind of a legal bribe.

Do educate yourself on country under martial law and the removal of all powers from the people and country like Singapore under a democratic government. Perhaps you can see the freedom comparison a bit clearer. A glance at the Freedom in the world index would also be useful like index 4 for freedom, civil liberties and political rights for Singapore versus 5-6 respectively for Thailand; 1 being the best out of 7 index.

The cookie jar has been taken away from the politicians to the military. Difference is the former can be charged and convicted while the latter can't be questioned. By the way, corruption is not measured in amount.

[yuv06]

Do educate yourself on country under martial law and the removal of all powers from the people and country like Singapore under a democratic government. Perhaps you can see the freedom comparison a bit clearer. A glance at the Freedom in the world index would also be useful like index 4 for freedom, civil liberties and political rights for Singapore versus 5-6 respectively for Thailand; 1 being the best out of 7 index.

The cookie jar has been taken away from the politicians to the military. Difference is the former can be charged and convicted while the latter can't be questioned. By the way, corruption is not measured in amount.

Try holding a protest in Singapore and lets see what happens? BTW are there still Ang Cheer (Red Bus) driving around full of police? They were when I was there and they like to beat people up

[Alwyn]

The thing is, he's not wrong.

[Muirton]

Paiboon said Thaksin was entitled to his opinion.

And he has expressed it, now he can go back to doing whatever runaway fugitives do in the desert.

"runaway fugitive". As opposed to a non-runaway fugitive? and the word "desert" lacks clarity.

[Muirton]

"On Friday during a trip to Finland, Thaksin criticised the charter draft as the "worst draft in terms of democracy''.

What this man knows about Democracy, could easily fit on the back of a Postage stamp!

The Red Shirts won 4 elections in a row. and, please, let's not re-run that Taksin bought elections. That would put you in the company of those in the US who can "prove" Obama was born in Kenya and, to pick another example that the English Admiralty allowed the Germans to sink the Lusitania. They're nutters and surely you wouldn't wish to be associated with them.

You can check on the number of elections Thaksin owned political parties have won, the name of the party at the time, and how those parties all seem to have a history of breaking the law. You can also read the comments about vote manipulations and illegal election practices from various parties.

You might want to read up on the latest writings from historians regarding the Lusitania tragedy. Released papers show some admiralty warnings of U-boat activity in the area were not passed onto merchant / passenger shipping - on the orders of Churchill, although why is speculative. There is still debate as to what caused the second explosion survivors reported, which was also logged by the U-boat commander who only fired one torpedo.

No idea, or interest about Obama. Except he's often referred to as African-American or "black" yet his mother was a white Kansas lady.

Poodle in the microwave. Poodle in the microwave. All hands report to the kitchen.

[tbthailand]

we are lucky to a an independent military that keeps those crooks in check.

that's one way to look at it.

but even if "true" and ignoring the long-standing history of military corruption, it still does nothing for democracy. The generals are the ones who keep tearing up constitutions, right?

In every functioning democracy in the world today - and there are plenty of examples, the military is under civilian control, ie; control of the elected government, and those militaries are forbidden from acting in politics in any way. In my country, the military is not even allowed to be active within the borders of the USA.

Military corruption if any is puny compared with politicians!

BTW if your government starts killing it's own people lets see weather how long the military in your own county will hold out before they take matters into their own hands!

Military corruption if any is puny compared with politicians!

I think that you do not understand Thai history...

BTW if your government starts killing it's own people lets see weather how long the military in your own county will hold out before they take matters into their own hands!

You'll have to point out which episodes you mean with that... And no, in the USA, the military still doesn't get involved in politics, much less shredding the constitution no matter what the government does. We have normal, constitutional and legal recourse. So did Thailand.

As for the "government" in Thailand killing people, the military, as an important institution of the state, seems to be leading in terms of body count. But really, that is a rather obvious part of Thai history...

[h90]

"worst draft in terms of democracy''

where is the problem "Democracy is not my goal" is what he told when he was in power.

[yuv06]

"On Friday during a trip to Finland, Thaksin criticised the charter draft as the "worst draft in terms of democracy''.

What this man knows about Democracy, could easily fit on the back of a Postage stamp!

The Red Shirts won 4 elections in a row. and, please, let's not re-run that Taksin bought elections. That would put you in the company of those in the US who can "prove" Obama was born in Kenya and, to pick another example that the English Admiralty allowed the Germans to sink the Lusitania. They're nutters and surely you wouldn't wish to be associated with them.

You can check on the number of elections Thaksin owned political parties have won, the name of the party at the time, and how those parties all seem to have a history of breaking the law. You can also read the comments about vote manipulations and illegal election practices from various parties.

You might want to read up on the latest writings from historians regarding the Lusitania tragedy. Released papers show some admiralty warnings of U-boat activity in the area were not passed onto merchant / passenger shipping - on the orders of Churchill, although why is speculative. There is still debate as to what caused the second explosion survivors reported, which was also logged by the U-boat commander who only fired one torpedo.

No idea, or interest about Obama. Except he's often referred to as African-American or "black" yet his mother was a white Kansas lady.

Poodle in the microwave. Poodle in the microwave. All hands report to the kitchen.

Actually your police force far out number Thai Military in body count

[Eric Loh]

Do educate yourself on country under martial law and the removal of all powers from the people and country like Singapore under a democratic government. Perhaps you can see the freedom comparison a bit clearer. A glance at the Freedom in the world index would also be useful like index 4 for freedom, civil liberties and political rights for Singapore versus 5-6 respectively for Thailand; 1 being the best out of 7 index.

The cookie jar has been taken away from the politicians to the military. Difference is the former can be charged and convicted while the latter can't be questioned. By the way, corruption is not measured in amount.

Try holding a protest in Singapore and lets see what happens? BTW are there still Ang Cheer (Red Bus) driving around full of police? They were when I was there and they like to beat people up

You are talking Ang Chia in the 60s when Singapore was an undeveloped state with communists, trade unionists, criminal gangs troubles. Then it was called Riot Squad; now it is called Police Tactical Unit and the Ang Chia is now called Troop Tactical Vehicle. That's all history. The last demonstration in Singapore was in 2013 by thousands not happy with government policies. Nothing happen. They came out on the streets with banners and slogans and went back home after the demonstration. No one got beaten up. Stay current dude.

[yuv06]

Try holding a protest in Singapore and lets see what happens? BTW are there still Ang Cheer (Red Bus) driving around full of police? They were when I was there and they like to beat people up

You are talking Ang Chia in the 60s when Singapore was an undeveloped state with communists, trade unionists, criminal gangs troubles. Then it was called Riot Squad; now it is called Police Tactical Unit and the Ang Chia is now called Troop Tactical Vehicle. That's all history. The last demonstration in Singapore was in 2013 by thousands not happy with government policies. Nothing happen. They came out on the streets with banners and slogans and went back home after the demonstration. No one got beaten up. Stay current dude.

Nope I was there much later and they were still around and definitely no communist in my time, your intellect were fine before this why have you suddenly lost your intellectual abilities?

[yuv06]

Try holding a protest in Singapore and lets see what happens? BTW are there still Ang Cheer (Red Bus) driving around full of police? They were when I was there and they like to beat people up

You are talking Ang Chia in the 60s when Singapore was an undeveloped state with communists, trade unionists, criminal gangs troubles. Then it was called Riot Squad; now it is called Police Tactical Unit and the Ang Chia is now called Troop Tactical Vehicle. That's all history. The last demonstration in Singapore was in 2013 by thousands not happy with government policies. Nothing happen. They came out on the streets with banners and slogans and went back home after the demonstration. No one got beaten up. Stay current dude.

Nope I was there much later and they were still around and definitely no communist in my time, your intellect were fine before this why have you suddenly lost your intellectual abilities?

BTW your so called protest in 2013 were held at speakers corner not downtown Orchard Road

Edited August 17, 2015 by yuv06

[lujanit]

The truth is you are not entitled to an opinion in most cases. To quote Patrick Stokes, a philosophy lecturer at Deakin University ""I'm sure you've heard the expression 'everyone is entitled to their opinion.' Perhaps you've even said it yourself, maybe to head off an argument or bring one to a close. Well, as soon as you walk into this room, it's no longer true. You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to what you can argue for."

The only thing Thaksin might try to argue for is his 'entitled' power to murder (war on drugs), rape the treasury and turn ordinary hard working Thais into slaves to feed his money machine. He is a megalomaniac and the Thai people should consider him a blight on their community. The sooner Thais get over this <deleted> the better the country will become.

[mikemac]

"...It's not surprising that Thaksin Shinawatra is critical of the charter draft because he doesn't stand to gain from it..."

...and neither do the majority of the people in the north and northeast.

bs

The "majority of the people in the north and northeast" would not have a clue what the draft charter contains and if they did they would not understand a word of it.

You guys talk like the average person in up-state LOS is a university graduate.

The majority of the people in the boondocks who are critical of the draft charter are disgruntled red supporting farangs who probably don't know what the charter contains either.

And their opinion is just the same as mine, it-does-not-matter.

[Jim walker]

This is the Junta charter so the military will always have the god given right to do whatever they want when ever they want and it will be law, a peoples charter is of no importance at the moment as there are no people in Thailand worth the military controlling, a peoples charter will come when the people rule Thailand and when that does happen law number one the military stays in barracks until the next war then they can come out under the civilian rule only, not when they decide they want more subs or aircraft carriers and new Mercs for the ones with the most campaign medals on their chests only problem most of the campaigns have been against the will of the Thai people true war heroes.

[FangFerang]

"Paiboon said Thaksin was entitled to his opinion."

But only because Thaksin's outside the country. Were he in Thailand, he of course would certainly not be entitled to sharing his opinion in this way, just like the rest of those who would question the junta's actions.

Uuuum, you don't seem to have a problem expressing your opinions, and lots of other posters manage to criticize the government in practically every post they make. As far as I know, none of them has been dragged out of their homes and given a lobotomy.

Not true. A large number of TVF posters have been forcefully disappeared and had lobotomies. They are the junta cheerleaders.

Edited August 17, 2015 by FangFerang

[diehard60]

There were no surveys in the northeast.

[ramrod711]

"Paiboon said Thaksin was entitled to his opinion."

But only because Thaksin's outside the country. Were he in Thailand, he of course would certainly not be entitled to sharing his opinion in this way, just like the rest of those who would question the junta's actions.

Uuuum, you don't seem to have a problem expressing your opinions, and lots of other posters manage to criticize the government in practically every post they make. As far as I know, none of them has been dragged out of their homes and given a lobotomy.

Not true. A large number of TVF posters have been forcefully disappeared and had lobotomies. They are the junta cheerleaders.

Apparently not all of them, try reading some of Muirtons posts.

[peteregion]

The National Guard of the United States is part of the reserve components of the United States Armed Forces and when not under Federal control, the governor is the commander-in-chief of the units of his or her respective state or territory. Though it had not happen before, they can be use politically by the governor of the states. We never know tomorrow.

[peteregion]

Paiboon does have a point. Nothing to gain for Thaksin as all the gains are skewed heavily on the side of the establishment and their military handyman. If 1997 was a people charter, this will be the establishment charter gift wrapped by the junta.

Well the 'people's charter' of 1997 (who worked on it by the way?) was improved in the 2007 version and a better approach to reforms would have been a further improvement on the 2007 version.

To call the new charter an 'establishment' version only seems to try to suggest something bad without feeling the need to explain.

BTW how does the 'establishment' version compare to the one you have in Singapore?

Is there any comparison of a constitution that was written in August 9 1965 and stood the test of time and acknowledged by global peers as successful democratic city state compare with the current junta draft which is taking away people ability to decide their leaders. And you need explanation. Time to change your bifocal, Rubi. By the way, every each time the constitution was shredded and re-written, it is always by the military following a coup. Suggest to me that the establishment and their military henchman just will not relinquish power to the people and this current draft is written with that in mind.

[peteregion]

'I am often accused of interfering in the private lives of citizens. Yes, if I did not, had I not done that, we wouldn't be here today. And I say without the slightest remorse, that we wouldn't be here, we would not have made economic progress, if we had not intervened on very personal matters - who your neighbour is, how you live, the noise you make, how you spit, or what language you use. We decide what is right. Never mind what the people think.'

Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, Straits Times, 20 April 1987

I don't think we can compare Singapore with Thailand. Singapore is basically a Chinese society and majority of the citizens just listen to what the Government tells them to do. Though this is changing with the internet.

[rayw]

I saw nothing wrong with the last Constitution, it was voted on and passed by "the people" .

Sorry my friend but I find it hard to believe you said that !!

What the new charter proposes is TRUE DEMOCRACY by using a PR system similar to that used successfully in Germany. A Proportional Representation system (PR) means that NO political party can exclusively govern without a minimum of >50% of the popular vote in their favour. That my friend is what is clearly and unarguably called true democracy, the true will of the people whether any of us as individuals want that or not !! If we just want and insist only on our own individual way then that is of course NOT democracy.

The system of First Past The Post (FPTP) is NEVER truly democratic unless of course there are only two political parties standing for election and that is only one better than a dictatorship of one party only. What I feel is a very honourable temporary and necessary dictatorship Government here in Thailand right now is proposing a better far truer form of democracy that will in future disallow ANY political party from any side EVER again wrongfully gaining exclusive control of Government UNLESS they have a true majority of the electorate who vote for it (yes indeed that unarguably means over 50% !). What the hell is wrong with that if you really believe in proper democracy ??

The FPTP system is very undemocratic. Just look at the more recent UK election results. The Conservative party gained 36.7% of the popular vote and yet end up unbelievably getting a clear 8 seat majority in the new Government and take full uncontested control of the UK parliament !!! The UKIP (a party which I personally do not support with hardly any of their policies) gained some 14% of the popular vote and yet disgustingly gained just ONE, yes JUST ONE, seat in the new parliament!!! Democracy ??? I don't think so !! Same with the Lib Dems who got less votes than the UKIP, I think about 11%, and though they got way more seats than the UKIP still should have had about 8 times more seats than they actually did get in the new house of commons for that percentage of the popular vote. So to sum up in the UK the result is we have now a UK Government who are clearly NOT supported by 63.3% of the voting electorate and yet incredibly, and unarguably wrongly, can do exactly what they want to impose their right wing policies on the whole of the UK public. Unacceptable and TOTALLY WRONG!!

Our current Thai unelected Government at least clearly seem to know that FPTP is wrong and are proposing that Thailand becomes one of the way too few truly democratic nations in the World with what it seems will be a well written PR based constitution democratically put to the Thai people for prior approval too. This will soundly and rightfully ensure that no party will come into full power in Thailand without a true majority of the public vote, yes once again that means over 50%. Democracy is absolutely about what the majority want and thus the will of the people must prevail, and that may not be what we individually may want as that is not how democracy should work. People like Thaksin and his cronies and even Abhist and the Democrats love the old FPTP system as they can take power on a minority vote, same as the old school Labour and Tory parties in the UK. This is clearly a rape of democracy and must not be allowed to continue of course. Full marks to Prayut and his Government for proposing this new constitution, which gives me some hope for the future here especially if they also clamp down on corruption as they seem to be doing, like the loathsome and highly illegal and corrupt vote buying that always and factually happened before.

All that is written above, to me makes perfect sense as I am a true believer in honest democracy and accept the TRUE majority will of the people. It looks like we may well soon now have a system here that supports and allows that to happen. Strangely enough this dictatorship military temporary Government has more affinity it seems to true democracy than many of the writers here in TVF, and certainly more than the flawed electoral systems in places like the UK and even USA where they hardly even play lip service to true democracy, allowing the corporate unelected lobbyists to ride rough shod over the electorate's wishes !!

Please note I will of course ignore the usual immature flamers. You either really should accept and agree with the above in principle, or clearly you cannot be a truly democratic person willing to accept the true majority will of the people no matter whether you happen to personally agree with them or not. Sorry for long post but this is an important topic to me that needed some detailed explanation I felt.

Edited August 17, 2015 by rayw

[h90]

There were no surveys in the northeast.

500 Baht per person and 90% would agree...The logic, it doesn't matter who rules no one care us is now something I agree. Taksin or Junta.....no difference but 500 Baht in the pocket are 500 Baht

[rubl]

Paiboon does have a point. Nothing to gain for Thaksin as all the gains are skewed heavily on the side of the establishment and their military handyman. If 1997 was a people charter, this will be the establishment charter gift wrapped by the junta.

Well the 'people's charter' of 1997 (who worked on it by the way?) was improved in the 2007 version and a better approach to reforms would have been a further improvement on the 2007 version.

To call the new charter an 'establishment' version only seems to try to suggest something bad without feeling the need to explain.

BTW how does the 'establishment' version compare to the one you have in Singapore?

Is there any comparison of a constitution that was written in August 9 1965 and stood the test of time and acknowledged by global peers as successful democratic city state compare with the current junta draft which is taking away people ability to decide their leaders. And you need explanation. Time to change your bifocal, Rubi. By the way, every each time the constitution was shredded and re-written, it is always by the military following a coup. Suggest to me that the establishment and their military henchman just will not relinquish power to the people and this current draft is written with that in mind.

So you tell me.

It would seem the current draft which promoted a more proportional representation is utterly disliked by some. I guess not everyone is used to multi-party coalitions working nicely together for the good of the nation. You need a real democraty to have that.

BTW the 'current' draft (from April?) has seen so many 'change proposals', comments, and whatever that it seem time for a 'final draft' version. That way we can see what it looks like now.