Security worry: How to stop the 'lone wolf' attacks

[webfact]

Security worry: How to stop the 'lone wolf' attacks
By LORI HINNANT

PARIS (AP) — The gunman had an arsenal that he claims to have stumbled upon in a park near the train station. Like three other men accused of drawing up failed plans for attacks in France recently, the suspect denied any links to terrorism, telling his lawyer he was homeless and only wanted to rob a train "to eat."

Instead, the assault rifle jammed, and he was tackled and bound with a necktie by three Americans and a Briton who were celebrated Monday with France's highest honor. Now, with many lives potentially saved on the high-speed train by quick-thinking and courageous passengers, the limits of a continent's worth of security were thrown into relief by a lone attacker during a less-sophisticated act of violence.

"I don't think we can rely entirely on the police, the law enforcement services. They will do their best. We can put in place the best intelligence networks, but somebody is probably going to get through at some stage. And my vision of this is that as citizens, we need to be prepared to think about how to act," Chris Norman, the British businessman who helped bind the suspect, told The Associated Press.

"We need to have it in our minds, because if I had never thought it before, then I probably would've just been sitting in a corner cowering," Norman said.

With thousands of Europeans believed to be radicalized by propaganda from the Islamic State group, and legions of security forces guarding the most visible targets, governments are increasingly worried about the possibility of carnage by individuals, with little planning, in a setting where there is minimal or no security.

If the attack fails, terrorist groups simply ignore it. If it succeeds, they claim responsibility for the work done by their "brother."

"This creates a really interesting dilemma for law enforcement. You don't have to be a mastermind or a sophisticated individual to kill a lot of people if you have weapons and they do not," said William Braniff, director of the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism. "You don't have to be all that well-trained. There's one threshold: You have to be able to load the weapon."

That, apparently, was something the gunman identified as 26-year-old Moroccan Ayoub El-Khazzani was unable to do, according to Spencer Stone, the U.S. airman who subdued the attacker on a train from Amsterdam to Paris. Stone said he saw the man holding an assault rifle that "looked like it was jammed and it wasn't working."

The Islamic State group has issued no comment on the failed attack. But on Sunday, a pro-Islamic State media group released a nine-minute video again calling on "Lone Lions" to kill Americans and Europeans.

"If it's a foiled attack, the most obvious reaction would be to deny," said Jean-Charles Brisard, a French security consultant and terrorism expert.

Another would-be attacker was arrested in April after he shot himself in the foot and called for medical help, drawing police attention to the blood trail leading to his arms-filled car and plans to gun down a church. He denied any terrorism links, despite what security officials described as extremist material found among his belongings.

In the Alpine region of Isere in June, an attacker accused of beheading his boss and trying to blow up a chemical warehouse has blamed domestic and work problems, despite having sent a photo of himself and the decapitated remains to an Islamic State contact in Syria.

Extremist groups have claimed responsibility for only 65 percent of attacks that can be attributed to them, according to data dating to 1998 from the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism. Islamic State's rate of responsibility claims is in line with that figure.

The train gunman was known to intelligence agents in at least three countries, but according to his lawyer had been traveling internationally by rail for the past six months. Germany Interior Ministry spokesman Johannes Dimroth told the AP that if the suspect is who he has said he is, Germany tracked him in May flying from Berlin to Istanbul — a popular gateway to Syria for militants.

Rolf Tophoven, a terrorism expert and director of the Institute for Crisis Prevention in Essen, Germany, said the thwarted train attack illustrates how difficult it is for authorities to prevent such violence by solo extremists or small groups.

"This is a development coming up more and more — not a huge terrorist network behind these guys, it's enough to be inspired and get a weapon," he said. "In Europe, you saw it against Charlie Hebdo, you saw it in Copenhagen, in the Jewish museum in Brussels, and now on the train."

France was already calling for individuals to redouble their vigilance and willingness to act. Messages to that effect were broadcast in French train stations beginning Monday, similar to the ubiquitous "If you see something, say something" that appeared around New York after Sept. 11.

President Francois Hollande said that while two of the Americans who tackled the gunman were soldiers, "on Friday you were simply passengers. You behaved as soldiers but also as responsible men."

The men showed "that faced with terror, we have the power to resist. You also gave a lesson in courage, in will, and thus in hope," Hollande said.

Sept. 11 — in particular the actions by the passengers on Flight 93 who tried to retake the plane from the hijackers after learning about the World Trade Center attacks — seared into the minds of many Americans the need for dramatic action in the face of terrorism, Braniff said.

"It has entered into our consciousness because of that flight and the lionization of the people who brought that plane down. It is an iconic moment of resistance," he said.

But Brisard cautioned that there were limits.

"This is a cultural problem, and I doubt we can simply rely on heroes to reduce the threat," he said. "I'm not sure it would happen the same way on another day."

Richard Barrett, senior vice president of The Soufan Group and a former British intelligence official, said governments in Europe and the U.S. must balance calls with vigilance against public paranoia.

"That is what terror is about. It's not about killing people but about making them afraid that they might be killed," he said.

European governments have sometimes come under criticism for what some see as a lax attitude toward people flagged as radicals — and the latest suspect was apparently able to board airplanes and trains without difficulty, raising new questions — but Barrett said the sheer number of those under suspicion makes it impossible to track them all.

"The cooperation on this is all pretty good now. The trouble is just so many names," he said. "How do you sort them all out, the risks, the threat?"
___

Associated Press writer David Rising contributed from Berlin.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-08-25

[Seastallion]

You can not stop lone wolves. They will spring up on a train, in a cafe, in a supermarket.

The ONLY way to reduce (perhaps to eradicate) the problem is to attack the source...ISIS propaganda.

The technology exists, and it's not expensive, relatively speaking. If Facebook, with xxx hundred million users, can get a nipple pic suppressed within minutes, global authorities can surely eradicate ISIS propaganda.

The internet is where it's at, not gun-toting patrols at every corner, or revving up civilians to do the dirty work (as this OP is tending to do).

Encouraging ordinary civilians to attempt to do what trained military men did on the train will surely end in tears for the innocent families of wannabe heroes.

Having said that, I agree with citizens taking the initiative as those Americans did....but only if they know that they can. This needs to be stressed; Step up if you can, but don't sacrifice yourself if you do not have the strength and skills to do so.

[Lissos]

Consult Israel on this, instead of making things up as we go along. Europe's mainland politicians will cringe at having to do so, but it is fair tobday after decades that Israel know what works and what doesn't work when it comes to Jihadis. Or are European mainland politicians seriously going to sit there from scratch and claim that they know best about how to deal with Islamists? Unfortunately, I suspect they will try just that, putting us all under threat with half hearted politically correct flawed approaches while doing everything possible not to become like that which they hammer on at constantly. In many ways Israel knows there is little you can do at end point of a bag bomb on a tram or in a cafe, or a car driver who turns into waiting passengers, or a digger operator who decides to go mad at those in the vicinity. Israel works hard to prevent that point being reached, and it does it by employing eyes and ears in all sorts of hidden corners. Its methods are not politically correct, not kid gloves, not 'fair' either.

Adapt or die, I say.

[zaphod reborn]

Here we have AP spewing out IS-fed propaganda that this destitute Moroccan was just a street bum who happened upon a weapons cache and decided to slaughter innocents on a train.

The Muslims immediately lawyered this terrorist up, and the lawyer is actively doing a PR-campaign to portray this IS-funded terrorist as some kind of victim of circumstance. Anyone who believes this crap should have their head examined.

[Lissos]

You can not stop lone wolves. They will spring up on a train, in a cafe, in a supermarket.

The ONLY way to reduce (perhaps to eradicate) the problem is to attack the source...ISIS propaganda.

The technology exists, and it's not expensive, relatively speaking. If Facebook, with xxx hundred million users, can get a nipple pic suppressed within minutes, global authorities can surely eradicate ISIS propaganda.

The internet is where it's at, not gun-toting patrols at every corner, or revving up civilians to do the dirty work (as this OP is tending to do).

Encouraging ordinary civilians to attempt to do what trained military men did on the train will surely end in tears for the innocent families of wannabe heroes.

Having said that, I agree with citizens taking the initiative as those Americans did....but only if they know that they can. This needs to be stressed; Step up if you can, but don't sacrifice yourself if you do not have the strength and skills to do so.

Agreed, on some points. Yesterday I read an edition of the online magazine (free mini sword attached to the front, with sellotape) that ISIS put out in English. Wow, these guys are good. It read like a motorcycle mag or - "Which Jihad?" or something, photos and interviews with smiling Caucasian Germans who later blew themselves up in a shahid operation etc etc. It tapped into the sort of flow you'd find in a surf mag, personal experiences and discussing justifications for this that and the other. Very 'normalised', with crisp photos of mujahid staring out onto landscapes behind the text.

In this way yes I have to concede that we're way behind on this, and need to counter it. It is going to be difficult in a climate of cynicism and disillusionment in western culture on so many things, and that is what the ISIS mag taps into also. We have to rediscover pride and promote what is 'right' with our cultures, rather than this endless self loathing and knee jerk assumption that we're a lost cause or even 'deserve' to be annihilated.

On one point though, I don't agree. The media front is important, but is a long term fight. In the short term immediacy we need to 'physically' act too and create a ring of steel first. Particularly in Britain, this makes people nervous to see armed guards. It sparks this 'police state' nervousness.

We need to get over that (imo)

About - "have a go heroes" I've also been wary in the past of politicians expounding the virtues of that from a safe distance. Depends on the scenario. Attempting to step in amongst a couple of drunk revellers without knowing what it is all about (sometimes leading to the samaritan being done over by the previously warring duo) is what I avoid. In the train scenario, sheer anger is what would make me act even if it lead to fatal consequences for me. It would spark anger because on any other day it may be my mother and father in the carriage that this monkey was intending to wipe out.

I don't think folks on a train need to be military trained to subdue an attacker, it just needs them to be angry enough and work together as a group to rush the attacker and overpower them. Less individual preservation, more group action. In the "me" west, this will take time to rediscover. One thing for sure, psychologically sitting there waiting for somebody suitably trained enough (as we are conditioned to in Europe) is going to end badly.

[Usernames]

The way to stop lone wolf attacks is to get the wolves out of your country and not let anymore come in.

[Steely Dan]

You can generally tell what Jihaddists don't like because they complain about it loudly, as do their apologists.. Guantanamo bay being a case in point. Calling them enemy combatants and denying them the right to be tried by civilian judiciary is a great idea. Internment should be greatly extended, not ended. The overheads to internment are far less than 24/7 surveillance and acknowledges the,fact that this is a war being fought.

As for the o.p , we are dealing with informal networks of terrorists not lone wolves most of the time.

[MaxYakov]

Hmmm. He must have damaged the AK when he "stumbled upon [it] in a park".

It's either that or it was one of those typically unreliable "free in the park, giveaway" AKs that are so common these days.

Edited August 25, 2015 by MaxYakov

[sammygood]

call CHUCK NORRIS

[Hayduke]

The term 'lone wolves' is entirely too romantic and heroic. Suggest the press begin to call them 'wild pigs'.

[empireboy]

The term 'lone wolves' is entirely too romantic and heroic. Suggest the press begin to call them 'wild pigs'.

Even Dengue Mosquitos... is there anyone that doesn't want to rid the world of those?

[Baerboxer]

The way to stop lone wolf attacks is to get the wolves out of your country and not let anymore come in.

Wolves were eradicated in the UK hundreds of years ago.

The new modern so named variant needs to suffer the same fate.

[MaeJoMTB]

The term 'lone wolves' is entirely too romantic and heroic. Suggest the press begin to call them 'wild pigs'.

Any votes for 'Mad Dog'

(not that they actually exist, it's all planned carefully)

[micmichd]

You can not stop lone wolves. They will spring up on a train, in a cafe, in a supermarket.

The ONLY way to reduce (perhaps to eradicate) the problem is to attack the source...ISIS propaganda.

The technology exists, and it's not expensive, relatively speaking. If Facebook, with xxx hundred million users, can get a nipple pic suppressed within minutes, global authorities can surely eradicate ISIS propaganda.

The internet is where it's at, not gun-toting patrols at every corner, or revving up civilians to do the dirty work (as this OP is tending to do).

Encouraging ordinary civilians to attempt to do what trained military men did on the train will surely end in tears for the innocent families of wannabe heroes.

Having said that, I agree with citizens taking the initiative as those Americans did....but only if they know that they can. This needs to be stressed; Step up if you can, but don't sacrifice yourself if you do not have the strength and skills to do so.

Agreed, on some points. Yesterday I read an edition of the online magazine (free mini sword attached to the front, with sellotape) that ISIS put out in English. Wow, these guys are good. It read like a motorcycle mag or - "Which Jihad?" or something, photos and interviews with smiling Caucasian Germans who later blew themselves up in a shahid operation etc etc. It tapped into the sort of flow you'd find in a surf mag, personal experiences and discussing justifications for this that and the other. Very 'normalised', with crisp photos of mujahid staring out onto landscapes behind the text.

In this way yes I have to concede that we're way behind on this, and need to counter it. It is going to be difficult in a climate of cynicism and disillusionment in western culture on so many things, and that is what the ISIS mag taps into also. We have to rediscover pride and promote what is 'right' with our cultures, rather than this endless self loathing and knee jerk assumption that we're a lost cause or even 'deserve' to be annihilated.

On one point though, I don't agree. The media front is important, but is a long term fight. In the short term immediacy we need to 'physically' act too and create a ring of steel first. Particularly in Britain, this makes people nervous to see armed guards. It sparks this 'police state' nervousness.

We need to get over that (imo)

About - "have a go heroes" I've also been wary in the past of politicians expounding the virtues of that from a safe distance. Depends on the scenario. Attempting to step in amongst a couple of drunk revellers without knowing what it is all about (sometimes leading to the samaritan being done over by the previously warring duo) is what I avoid. In the train scenario, sheer anger is what would make me act even if it lead to fatal consequences for me. It would spark anger because on any other day it may be my mother and father in the carriage that this monkey was intending to wipe out.

I don't think folks on a train need to be military trained to subdue an attacker, it just needs them to be angry enough and work together as a group to rush the attacker and overpower them. Less individual preservation, more group action. In the "me" west, this will take time to rediscover. One thing for sure, psychologically sitting there waiting for somebody suitably trained enough (as we are conditioned to in Europe) is going to end badly.

So, Mr Supermoralist, what would you do if you happen to have an Asian girlfriend, and Europeans try to wipe her out? Would you still be so desperately in defense of Western culture? Edited August 25, 2015 by micmichd

[Lissos]

So, Mr Supermoralist, what would you do if you happen to have an Asian girlfriend, and Europeans try to wipe her out? Would you still be so desperately in defense of Western culture?

Of course I'd defend her from criminals, whatever the race of the attacker.

What other kind of answer were you expecting?

[micmichd]

So, Mr Supermoralist, what would you do if you happen to have an Asian girlfriend, and Europeans try to wipe her out? Would you still be so desperately in defense of Western culture?

Of course I'd defend her from criminals, whatever the race of the attacker.

What other kind of answer were you expecting?

Nothing else, that's a good answer.

I'm not talking about a fictional case her, Farang attacks against my Asian girlfriend are reality. But Germans said I need re-education, and they forced me to it, and even forced me to pay for their "services"

They will also get a "service" that they did not asked for if they don't change their mind very quickly.

Edited August 25, 2015 by micmichd

[BuaBS]

I feel another gangbang rape on the little privacy we have left , coming on in the near future.

[micmichd]

Yes, data mining improved. I'd still prefer PRISM to Guantanamo.

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory posts remove. Continue and you will receive a suspension.

[arjunadawn]

Hmmm. He must have damaged the AK when he "stumbled upon [it] in a park".

It's either that or it was one of those typically unreliable "free in the park, giveaway" AKs that are so common these days.

Ha, I will tell you my first thoughts about the weapon: AKs are quite reliable if cleaned and a magazine used that does not have a crappy spring (not too accurate but reliable and deadly). However, one thing I have repeatedly seen when training arabs to use AKs is their inability to properly navigate the selector effectively (requires right hand dexterity). In fact, I have seen them switch it to safe or even auto when trying to charge the handle. The safety is on the right side and its about as simple as imaginable- move up and it blocks the carrier from pulling the bolt back. However, these pressed metal safeties often need to be slightly bent out because it is a SOB to manipulate with the right thumb and maintain trigger presence. Add to this a possible malfunction and the entire weapons must be turned on its left side, right up, and charged with... left hand... (Right hand is control hand and should never leave weapon). But universally, my students could not do this. They needed to use their right hand to charge the weapon- chamber a round. As a firearms instructor, I expect in slow motion is was a comedy of errors.

Someone previously mentioned ISIS propaganda. Ok, try to find a way to address this. But then also address the AQ propaganda, the Hamas, Iranian mullahs, Qawadari, the Hezbollah, JI in Indo, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, AS in PI, the countless offshoots in the NWFP of Paki, the hate preachers in our midst, and of course any concerted effort to address this might provoke one to ask "Where on earth are all of these groups getting the very same hate speech from?" Perhaps when this fundamental problem is even recognized we can begin to manage saving the planet from complete regression to barbarity.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/417888/Proscription-20150327.pdf

[Seastallion]

Hmmm. He must have damaged the AK when he "stumbled upon [it] in a park".

It's either that or it was one of those typically unreliable "free in the park, giveaway" AKs that are so common these days.

Ha, I will tell you my first thoughts about the weapon: AKs are quite reliable if cleaned and a magazine used that does not have a crappy spring (not too accurate but reliable and deadly). However, one thing I have repeatedly seen when training arabs to use AKs is their inability to properly navigate the selector effectively (requires right hand dexterity). In fact, I have seen them switch it to safe or even auto when trying to charge the handle. The safety is on the right side and its about as simple as imaginable- move up and it blocks the carrier from pulling the bolt back. However, these pressed metal safeties often need to be slightly bent out because it is a SOB to manipulate with the right thumb and maintain trigger presence. Add to this a possible malfunction and the entire weapons must be turned on its left side, right up, and charged with... left hand... (Right hand is control hand and should never leave weapon). But universally, my students could not do this. They needed to use their right hand to charge the weapon- chamber a round. As a firearms instructor, I expect in slow motion is was a comedy of errors.

Someone previously mentioned ISIS propaganda. Ok, try to find a way to address this. But then also address the AQ propaganda, the Hamas, Iranian mullahs, Qawadari, the Hezbollah, JI in Indo, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, AS in PI, the countless offshoots in the NWFP of Paki, the hate preachers in our midst, and of course any concerted effort to address this might provoke one to ask "Where on earth are all of these groups getting the very same hate speech from?" Perhaps when this fundamental problem is even recognized we can begin to manage saving the planet from complete regression to barbarity.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/417888/Proscription-20150327.pdf

This is probably why I'd never make a good grunt; Why do you need to maintain trigger presence during the moment of switching to "safe"? It seems like an unthinking and redundant requirement.

[micmichd]

Hmmm. He must have damaged the AK when he "stumbled upon [it] in a park".

It's either that or it was one of those typically unreliable "free in the park, giveaway" AKs that are so common these days.

Ha, I will tell you my first thoughts about the weapon: AKs are quite reliable if cleaned and a magazine used that does not have a crappy spring (not too accurate but reliable and deadly). However, one thing I have repeatedly seen when training arabs to use AKs is their inability to properly navigate the selector effectively (requires right hand dexterity). In fact, I have seen them switch it to safe or even auto when trying to charge the handle. The safety is on the right side and its about as simple as imaginable- move up and it blocks the carrier from pulling the bolt back. However, these pressed metal safeties often need to be slightly bent out because it is a SOB to manipulate with the right thumb and maintain trigger presence. Add to this a possible malfunction and the entire weapons must be turned on its left side, right up, and charged with... left hand... (Right hand is control hand and should never leave weapon). But universally, my students could not do this. They needed to use their right hand to charge the weapon- chamber a round. As a firearms instructor, I expect in slow motion is was a comedy of errors.

Someone previously mentioned ISIS propaganda. Ok, try to find a way to address this. But then also address the AQ propaganda, the Hamas, Iranian mullahs, Qawadari, the Hezbollah, JI in Indo, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, AS in PI, the countless offshoots in the NWFP of Paki, the hate preachers in our midst, and of course any concerted effort to address this might provoke one to ask "Where on earth are all of these groups getting the very same hate speech from?" Perhaps when this fundamental problem is even recognized we can begin to manage saving the planet from complete regression to barbarity.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/417888/Proscription-20150327.pdf

Thank you for instructions. Hope I remember this when I visit a European bank to get my money for my Asian family next time.

AKs are supplied in the park? Good to know

[sunshine51]

In agreement with post #2...you cannot stop or prevent "lone wolf" attacks...period.

As for civilians...if you do not have the training to stop an armed attacker, do not even

try lest you become a statistic.

If you do have the training and the opportunity is at hand...ultimately it is your choice.

Cut the propaganda at it's source...the technology is there and easy to use. Use it.

[Steely Dan]

Hmmm. He must have damaged the AK when he "stumbled upon [it] in a park".

It's either that or it was one of those typically unreliable "free in the park, giveaway" AKs that are so common these days.

Ha, I will tell you my first thoughts about the weapon: AKs are quite reliable if cleaned and a magazine used that does not have a crappy spring (not too accurate but reliable and deadly). However, one thing I have repeatedly seen when training arabs to use AKs is their inability to properly navigate the selector effectively (requires right hand dexterity). In fact, I have seen them switch it to safe or even auto when trying to charge the handle. The safety is on the right side and its about as simple as imaginable- move up and it blocks the carrier from pulling the bolt back. However, these pressed metal safeties often need to be slightly bent out because it is a SOB to manipulate with the right thumb and maintain trigger presence. Add to this a possible malfunction and the entire weapons must be turned on its left side, right up, and charged with... left hand... (Right hand is control hand and should never leave weapon). But universally, my students could not do this. They needed to use their right hand to charge the weapon- chamber a round. As a firearms instructor, I expect in slow motion is was a comedy of errors.

Someone previously mentioned ISIS propaganda. Ok, try to find a way to address this. But then also address the AQ propaganda, the Hamas, Iranian mullahs, Qawadari, the Hezbollah, JI in Indo, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, AS in PI, the countless offshoots in the NWFP of Paki, the hate preachers in our midst, and of course any concerted effort to address this might provoke one to ask "Where on earth are all of these groups getting the very same hate speech from?" Perhaps when this fundamental problem is even recognized we can begin to manage saving the planet from complete regression to barbarity.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/417888/Proscription-20150327.pdf

Thank you for instructions. Hope I remember this when I visit a European bank to get my money for my Asian family next time.

AKs are supplied in the park? Good to know

When I lived in Brussels a friend was robbed at gunpoint by a Moroccan armed with a found in the park pistol. That was in 95, I guess AK's are more prevalent these days.

[arjunadawn]

Hmmm. He must have damaged the AK when he "stumbled upon [it] in a park".

It's either that or it was one of those typically unreliable "free in the park, giveaway" AKs that are so common these days.

Ha, I will tell you my first thoughts about the weapon: AKs are quite reliable if cleaned and a magazine used that does not have a crappy spring (not too accurate but reliable and deadly). However, one thing I have repeatedly seen when training arabs to use AKs is their inability to properly navigate the selector effectively (requires right hand dexterity). In fact, I have seen them switch it to safe or even auto when trying to charge the handle. The safety is on the right side and its about as simple as imaginable- move up and it blocks the carrier from pulling the bolt back. However, these pressed metal safeties often need to be slightly bent out because it is a SOB to manipulate with the right thumb and maintain trigger presence. Add to this a possible malfunction and the entire weapons must be turned on its left side, right up, and charged with... left hand... (Right hand is control hand and should never leave weapon). But universally, my students could not do this. They needed to use their right hand to charge the weapon- chamber a round. As a firearms instructor, I expect in slow motion is was a comedy of errors.

Someone previously mentioned ISIS propaganda. Ok, try to find a way to address this. But then also address the AQ propaganda, the Hamas, Iranian mullahs, Qawadari, the Hezbollah, JI in Indo, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, AS in PI, the countless offshoots in the NWFP of Paki, the hate preachers in our midst, and of course any concerted effort to address this might provoke one to ask "Where on earth are all of these groups getting the very same hate speech from?" Perhaps when this fundamental problem is even recognized we can begin to manage saving the planet from complete regression to barbarity.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/417888/Proscription-20150327.pdf

This is probably why I'd never make a good grunt; Why do you need to maintain trigger presence during the moment of switching to "safe"? It seems like an unthinking and redundant requirement.

Laughter. I never took you for a grunt but your observation is a very good grunt observation. Assuming you really dont know much about these weapons you went right to the meet. Let me explain my silly scenario better.

Right handed shooter- 3 fingers around the grip, one finger outside the trigger well poised to enter and depress when on target, and the right thumb on the left side of the grip providing... the grip. The dexterity of the index finger to return from trigger to safety, from safety to trigger is lacking in many adult males. Using a thumb requires a near total loss of weapon control which basically pivots the ak on top of three fingers- thumb executes safety, return to grip, reacquire target, pull trigger. Incredibly inferior weapons handling. Many well take left hand from fore-grip and grasp the shoulder stock to enable right index finger to manipulate. So, there's a few ways this is done, all wrong.

The truth is, in many AKs the safety is a MF. When safely emptied, even I would place weapon off safe and gently file down the bump that provides the clicking into safety and off. It is just hard to manipulate with right hand alone.

We teach maintaining weapon in right grip at all times, rotating in the shooters box (an imaginary box in front of you like a baseball target at pitcher, and provide work action with left hand. Indeed, one needs to do this in any event if reloading, malfunctions, etc). This or a variance is taught but the Arabs that i have taught in Iraq, Jordan, UAE, and Yemen all had problems with this (so did detachment 88 in Indo). Only the Pakis flawlessly handled their weapons. I can genuinely see this space in the terrorist incident being critical to where the shooter lost control. Lastly, regarding redundancy, it has been a truism for a very long time that the measure of a soldier's professionalism can be inferred remotely simply be noting the finger placement of the shooting hand index. When off the trigger it is usually a sign of some training. The AK was made for idiots. It was made to be stupid proof and near impossibly to malfunction. But the safeties are mostly very stiff.

[Seastallion]

You may have overlooked the word "to".

Why maintain "trigger presence" when switching TO safe, ie, when there is no target.

[Kannikapor88]

Dare I say that France and EU as a Whole has done this to them self by letting this scum come to EU in such numbers ... As Muammar Gaddafi once said, something like this :

Why should we try to conquer Europe with tanks when our women can do it with baby strollers ...

EU has committed suicide by muslim and they cant do anything about it .... Game over !!!

[F430murci]

Keep those with the propensity to be lone wolfs out would be a start.

[NeverSure]

You can not stop lone wolves. They will spring up on a train, in a cafe, in a supermarket.

The ONLY way to reduce (perhaps to eradicate) the problem is to attack the source...ISIS propaganda.

The technology exists, and it's not expensive, relatively speaking. If Facebook, with xxx hundred million users, can get a nipple pic suppressed within minutes, global authorities can surely eradicate ISIS propaganda.

The internet is where it's at, not gun-toting patrols at every corner, or revving up civilians to do the dirty work (as this OP is tending to do).

Encouraging ordinary civilians to attempt to do what trained military men did on the train will surely end in tears for the innocent families of wannabe heroes.

Having said that, I agree with citizens taking the initiative as those Americans did....but only if they know that they can. This needs to be stressed; Step up if you can, but don't sacrifice yourself if you do not have the strength and skills to do so.

You can not stop lone wolves. They will spring up on a train, in a cafe, in a supermarket.

The ONLY way to reduce (perhaps to eradicate) the problem is to attack the source...ISIS propaganda.

The technology exists, and it's not expensive, relatively speaking. If Facebook, with xxx hundred million users, can get a nipple pic suppressed within minutes, global authorities can surely eradicate ISIS propaganda.

The internet is where it's at, not gun-toting patrols at every corner, or revving up civilians to do the dirty work (as this OP is tending to do).

Encouraging ordinary civilians to attempt to do what trained military men did on the train will surely end in tears for the innocent families of wannabe heroes.

Having said that, I agree with citizens taking the initiative as those Americans did....but only if they know that they can. This needs to be stressed; Step up if you can, but don't sacrifice yourself if you do not have the strength and skills to do so.

Agreed, on some points. Yesterday I read an edition of the online magazine (free mini sword attached to the front, with sellotape) that ISIS put out in English. Wow, these guys are good. It read like a motorcycle mag or - "Which Jihad?" or something, photos and interviews with smiling Caucasian Germans who later blew themselves up in a shahid operation etc etc. It tapped into the sort of flow you'd find in a surf mag, personal experiences and discussing justifications for this that and the other. Very 'normalised', with crisp photos of mujahid staring out onto landscapes behind the text.

In this way yes I have to concede that we're way behind on this, and need to counter it. It is going to be difficult in a climate of cynicism and disillusionment in western culture on so many things, and that is what the ISIS mag taps into also. We have to rediscover pride and promote what is 'right' with our cultures, rather than this endless self loathing and knee jerk assumption that we're a lost cause or even 'deserve' to be annihilated.

On one point though, I don't agree. The media front is important, but is a long term fight. In the short term immediacy we need to 'physically' act too and create a ring of steel first. Particularly in Britain, this makes people nervous to see armed guards. It sparks this 'police state' nervousness.

We need to get over that (imo)

About - "have a go heroes" I've also been wary in the past of politicians expounding the virtues of that from a safe distance. Depends on the scenario. Attempting to step in amongst a couple of drunk revellers without knowing what it is all about (sometimes leading to the samaritan being done over by the previously warring duo) is what I avoid. In the train scenario, sheer anger is what would make me act even if it lead to fatal consequences for me. It would spark anger because on any other day it may be my mother and father in the carriage that this monkey was intending to wipe out.

I don't think folks on a train need to be military trained to subdue an attacker, it just needs them to be angry enough and work together as a group to rush the attacker and overpower them. Less individual preservation, more group action. In the "me" west, this will take time to rediscover. One thing for sure, psychologically sitting there waiting for somebody suitably trained enough (as we are conditioned to in Europe) is going to end badly.

"This needs to be stressed; Step up if you can, but don't sacrifice yourself if you do not have the strength and skills to do so."

Why sit there under any circumstances? Your attack may slow the guy long enough for help to arrive - if you have the mindset that the Americans did.

"One thing for sure, psychologically sitting there waiting for somebody suitably trained enough (as we are conditioned to in Europe) is going to end badly."

This is the answer. Some things are worth dying for and our forebears knew it even if we have forgotten. I'd rather go down fighting than to be a hostage during a massacre.

Cheers.

[Seastallion]

You can not stop lone wolves. They will spring up on a train, in a cafe, in a supermarket.

The ONLY way to reduce (perhaps to eradicate) the problem is to attack the source...ISIS propaganda.

The technology exists, and it's not expensive, relatively speaking. If Facebook, with xxx hundred million users, can get a nipple pic suppressed within minutes, global authorities can surely eradicate ISIS propaganda.

The internet is where it's at, not gun-toting patrols at every corner, or revving up civilians to do the dirty work (as this OP is tending to do).

Encouraging ordinary civilians to attempt to do what trained military men did on the train will surely end in tears for the innocent families of wannabe heroes.

Having said that, I agree with citizens taking the initiative as those Americans did....but only if they know that they can. This needs to be stressed; Step up if you can, but don't sacrifice yourself if you do not have the strength and skills to do so.

You can not stop lone wolves. They will spring up on a train, in a cafe, in a supermarket.

The ONLY way to reduce (perhaps to eradicate) the problem is to attack the source...ISIS propaganda.

The technology exists, and it's not expensive, relatively speaking. If Facebook, with xxx hundred million users, can get a nipple pic suppressed within minutes, global authorities can surely eradicate ISIS propaganda.

The internet is where it's at, not gun-toting patrols at every corner, or revving up civilians to do the dirty work (as this OP is tending to do).

Encouraging ordinary civilians to attempt to do what trained military men did on the train will surely end in tears for the innocent families of wannabe heroes.

Having said that, I agree with citizens taking the initiative as those Americans did....but only if they know that they can. This needs to be stressed; Step up if you can, but don't sacrifice yourself if you do not have the strength and skills to do so.

Agreed, on some points. Yesterday I read an edition of the online magazine (free mini sword attached to the front, with sellotape) that ISIS put out in English. Wow, these guys are good. It read like a motorcycle mag or - "Which Jihad?" or something, photos and interviews with smiling Caucasian Germans who later blew themselves up in a shahid operation etc etc. It tapped into the sort of flow you'd find in a surf mag, personal experiences and discussing justifications for this that and the other. Very 'normalised', with crisp photos of mujahid staring out onto landscapes behind the text.

In this way yes I have to concede that we're way behind on this, and need to counter it. It is going to be difficult in a climate of cynicism and disillusionment in western culture on so many things, and that is what the ISIS mag taps into also. We have to rediscover pride and promote what is 'right' with our cultures, rather than this endless self loathing and knee jerk assumption that we're a lost cause or even 'deserve' to be annihilated.

On one point though, I don't agree. The media front is important, but is a long term fight. In the short term immediacy we need to 'physically' act too and create a ring of steel first. Particularly in Britain, this makes people nervous to see armed guards. It sparks this 'police state' nervousness.

We need to get over that (imo)

About - "have a go heroes" I've also been wary in the past of politicians expounding the virtues of that from a safe distance. Depends on the scenario. Attempting to step in amongst a couple of drunk revellers without knowing what it is all about (sometimes leading to the samaritan being done over by the previously warring duo) is what I avoid. In the train scenario, sheer anger is what would make me act even if it lead to fatal consequences for me. It would spark anger because on any other day it may be my mother and father in the carriage that this monkey was intending to wipe out.

I don't think folks on a train need to be military trained to subdue an attacker, it just needs them to be angry enough and work together as a group to rush the attacker and overpower them. Less individual preservation, more group action. In the "me" west, this will take time to rediscover. One thing for sure, psychologically sitting there waiting for somebody suitably trained enough (as we are conditioned to in Europe) is going to end badly.

"This needs to be stressed; Step up if you can, but don't sacrifice yourself if you do not have the strength and skills to do so."

Why sit there under any circumstances? Your attack may slow the guy long enough for help to arrive - if you have the mindset that the Americans did.

"One thing for sure, psychologically sitting there waiting for somebody suitably trained enough (as we are conditioned to in Europe) is going to end badly."

This is the answer. Some things are worth dying for and our forebears knew it even if we have forgotten. I'd rather go down fighting than to be a hostage during a massacre.

Cheers.

Yes, you and I might be prepared to go down fighting, but where you and I differ in opinion is you will urge others to do so too, and perhaps die needlessly, whereas I don't urge others to die.