China cuts interest rates again to spur economic growth

[keemapoot]

Quality of life is fresh air and clean waters ....this liberation thing that Comrade P keeps talking about is comically nonsensical

Pretty much like most of us living in Thailand chose this place for how far the retirement dollar is stretching and the lifestyle ...I don't think we came here for any liberation from politics etc etc

Most Chinese businessman are so practical ...unless the government serves a function to aid their business further , they are not even keen to establish any ties or have any reviews on whatever policies is posted or printed

Yup, when I said quality of life, I did not include this concept 'Comrad P' (I have to chuckle every time you call him that, as it reminds me of how my Russian Soviet partners used to address me as an inside joke) has that the Chinese are pregnant with the idea of free speech and free public expression. That is not true with any of the many overseas Chinese entrepreneurs I know.

My first Chinese partner when I was a young man, who helped me build important things and was like an older brother to me and my mentor on China, and who became a lifelong close friend grew up in the cultural revolution. During this purge of impure elements, and as a targeted doctoral-educated man from Beijing's most prestigious Uni, he lived in constant fear and hunger, wearing rags and cowering in a lean-to shack on the side of a small village road, literally living alongside several sheep. He only told those stories to me and very close friends. Later, he and several of his friends became very successful and wealthy and slowly and methodically brought their entire families to the US. He confided to me the distrust of the CCP, and related many similar stories of friends and associates, and it was never primarily about the freedom and liberty. It was simply about wanting a better life for his family and children. He also had issues when entering China in immigration during the time he had a Chinese passport, green card, and even when he had a US passport.

And, yes, as Pub correctly noted, these returning overseas Chinese are often treated with some amount of distrust, BUT as he does not have experience with this group, I can testify firsthand working side-by-side with him and others in China many years, that these returning Chinese diaspora are mostly envied, respected, and elevated in stature and face. He was always treated like a special person by others in China who wanted to emulate him. BUT, it was never about the politics or freedom of speech.

There is a difference though among the younger ones today, and the newly wealthy. They do have more of a stake in their China-generated success and are even more practical than that. All these lofty democracy concepts that people like Pub want to foist on them are just not important and plainly wrong. And guys like Jack Ma, founder of Alibaba, are very much nationalistic. So, it is a mixed bag of tricks. For sure, there are some that want democracy, but it is by and large a minority.

Edited April 29, 2016 by keemapoot

[LawrenceChee]

Quality of life is fresh air and clean waters ....this liberation thing that Comrade P keeps talking about is comically nonsensical

Pretty much like most of us living in Thailand chose this place for how far the retirement dollar is stretching and the lifestyle ...I don't think we came here for any liberation from politics etc etc

Most Chinese businessman are so practical ...unless the government serves a function to aid their business further , they are not even keen to establish any ties or have any reviews on whatever policies is posted or printed

Yup, when I said quality of life, I did not include this concept 'Comrad P' (I have to chuckle every time you call him that, as it reminds me of how my Russian Soviet partners used to address me as an inside joke) has that the Chinese are pregnant with the idea of free speech and free public expression. That is not true with any of the many overseas Chinese entrepreneurs I know.

My first Chinese partner when I was a young man, who helped me build important things and was like an older brother to me and my mentor on China, and who became a lifelong close friend grew up in the cultural revolution. During this purge of impure elements, and as a targeted doctoral-educated man from Beijing's most prestigious Uni, he lived in constant fear and hunger, wearing rags and cowering in a lean-to shack on the side of a small village road, literally living alongside several sheep. He only told those stories to me and very close friends. Later, he and several of his friends became very successful and wealthy and slowly and methodically brought their entire families to the US. He confided to me the distrust of the CCP, and related many similar stories of friends and associates, and it was never primarily about the freedom and liberty. It was simply about wanting a better life for his family and children. He also had issues when entering China in immigration during the time he had a Chinese passport, green card, and even when he had a US passport.

And, yes, as Pub correctly noted, these returning overseas Chinese are often treated with some amount of distrust, BUT as he does not have experience with this group, I can testify firsthand working side-by-side with him and others in China many years, that these returning Chinese diaspora are mostly envied, respected, and elevated in stature and face. He was always treated like a special person by others in China who wanted to emulate him. BUT, it was never about the politics or freedom of speech.

There is a difference though among the younger ones today, and the newly wealthy. They do have more of a stake in their China-generated success and are even more practical than that. All these lofty democracy concepts that people like Pub want to foist on them are just not important and plainly wrong. And guys like Jack Ma, founder of Alibaba, are very much nationalistic. So, it is a mixed bag of tricks. For sure, there are some that want democracy, but it is by and large a minority.

This is a real representation of China ....these views are balanced and consistent to the ground and critical enough for the CCP to understand the world is not always rosy

Slowly at these party meetings , we have professionals mentioned above who understand how to chide the government gently to push them in the right direction

I would say many of the things discussed are unimaginable during my grandads times .

I know of 3 businessmen who are influential and western educated who are the closest Advisors to the Guangzhou governor.

In public these men looked subdued and bored , but in these closed meetings the points articulated are fierce and logical and most times you find the Govt agreeing with their perspectives but they don't seek public office and hence no publicity of what they are doing.

These guys have green cards , homes in western countries and also carry the politburo cards as CCP cadre members and proud residents in Beijing and other cities ; this is the new generation of China and their children who are in my age bracket continue to push the envelope on further concessions and balance

[ExpatOilWorker]

Quality of life is fresh air and clean waters ....this liberation thing that Comrade P keeps talking about is comically nonsensical

Pretty much like most of us living in Thailand chose this place for how far the retirement dollar is stretching and the lifestyle ...I don't think we came here for any liberation from politics etc etc

Most Chinese businessman are so practical ...unless the government serves a function to aid their business further , they are not even keen to establish any ties or have any reviews on whatever policies is posted or printed

Not so fast. A lot of business have political connections just to make it easier to exist in the corrupt system. It is just so much easier to get a permit to locate your toxic and explosive warehouse in a residential area if you know the right people.

[LawrenceChee]

Quality of life is fresh air and clean waters ....this liberation thing that Comrade P keeps talking about is comically nonsensical

Pretty much like most of us living in Thailand chose this place for how far the retirement dollar is stretching and the lifestyle ...I don't think we came here for any liberation from politics etc etc

Most Chinese businessman are so practical ...unless the government serves a function to aid their business further , they are not even keen to establish any ties or have any reviews on whatever policies is posted or printed

Not so fast. A lot of business have political connections just to make it easier to exist in the corrupt system. It is just so much easier to get a permit to locate your toxic and explosive warehouse in a residential area if you know the right people.

Yeap the last Tianjin explosion was a big wake up call to the CCP as it was this close to Beijing

In my initial years in the CCP , environmental concerns was laughed at ...today it's a permanent agenda item on the meetings

I can tell you they are getting serious about it although some of the earlier errors may not be so easily fixed and even the experts they hired from the Nordic is pessimistic

Hence you can see in recent days Comrade Xi has been going hard at these environmental KPIs ...it's a much needed start in the right direction

[ExpatOilWorker]

I am not defending that practices as I have seen first hand how it unfolded in USA and affected mainly normal families

What I am stating is it's unfortunate the same things happening in USA is now slowly unfolding out in China

The government has a chance to fix it as its not at the same level of secrecy like USA until the bubble burst and it was too late then

The good thing about being a communist government is they are in a position to fix it before the bubble burst ...and they have the powers to tell you how to fix it as they are still communist ...hoping this is right as banking is not my first subject matter of expertise and we can see many "experts" get it wrong all the time

I am hoping they would as there are many distracting issues for a government this big and while the USA is also running around in the SCS

The rich Chinese are smartly moving their money around and out...guys all over the world who has made their money hide it in tax havens ...we know the Chinese didn't invent most of tax fraud , offside accounts , Swiss banking , hiding money in backyards etc etc but the Chinese like everyone else is worried about money losing their value

Anyone in TVF would probably have multiple accounts in Thailand and their home country ...again nothing new we all hedged ourselves

I think we are forgetting one important aspect when comparing the West with China.

When Enron and WorldCom swallowed up 1,000 of employees pensions, a few shred a tear on Oprah, but must just sucked it up.

On the other hand when a Chinaman loses a dollar he goes absolute berserk.

[LawrenceChee]

I am not defending that practices as I have seen first hand how it unfolded in USA and affected mainly normal families

What I am stating is it's unfortunate the same things happening in USA is now slowly unfolding out in China

The government has a chance to fix it as its not at the same level of secrecy like USA until the bubble burst and it was too late then

The good thing about being a communist government is they are in a position to fix it before the bubble burst ...and they have the powers to tell you how to fix it as they are still communist ...hoping this is right as banking is not my first subject matter of expertise and we can see many "experts" get it wrong all the time

I am hoping they would as there are many distracting issues for a government this big and while the USA is also running around in the SCS

The rich Chinese are smartly moving their money around and out...guys all over the world who has made their money hide it in tax havens ...we know the Chinese didn't invent most of tax fraud , offside accounts , Swiss banking , hiding money in backyards etc etc but the Chinese like everyone else is worried about money losing their value

Anyone in TVF would probably have multiple accounts in Thailand and their home country ...again nothing new we all hedged ourselves

I think we are forgetting one important aspect when comparing the West with China.

When Enron and WorldCom swallowed up 1,000 of employees pensions, a few shred a tear on Oprah, but must just sucked it up.

On the other hand when a Chinaman loses a dollar he goes absolute berserk.

Hahahahahhahahha you got that right ...we are sore losers when it comes to losing money $$$$ its in our genes not to lose even a farthing ! Edited April 30, 2016 by LawrenceChee

[Naam]

when comparing the West with China...

people like me who have visited Beijing and Shanghai in 1981 and compare what they saw then with what they see today are absolutely flabbergasted.

hats off for Deng Xiaoping!

[ExpatOilWorker]

I am not defending that practices as I have seen first hand how it unfolded in USA and affected mainly normal families

What I am stating is it's unfortunate the same things happening in USA is now slowly unfolding out in China

The government has a chance to fix it as its not at the same level of secrecy like USA until the bubble burst and it was too late then

The good thing about being a communist government is they are in a position to fix it before the bubble burst ...and they have the powers to tell you how to fix it as they are still communist ...hoping this is right as banking is not my first subject matter of expertise and we can see many "experts" get it wrong all the time

I am hoping they would as there are many distracting issues for a government this big and while the USA is also running around in the SCS

The rich Chinese are smartly moving their money around and out...guys all over the world who has made their money hide it in tax havens ...we know the Chinese didn't invent most of tax fraud , offside accounts , Swiss banking , hiding money in backyards etc etc but the Chinese like everyone else is worried about money losing their value

Anyone in TVF would probably have multiple accounts in Thailand and their home country ...again nothing new we all hedged ourselves

I think we are forgetting one important aspect when comparing the West with China.

When Enron and WorldCom swallowed up 1,000 of employees pensions, a few shred a tear on Oprah, but must just sucked it up.

On the other hand when a Chinaman loses a dollar he goes absolute berserk.

Hahahahahhahahha you got that right ...we are sore losers when it comes to losing money $$$$ its in our genes not to lose even a farthing !

I use to have great fun and using this to my advantage when negotiating prices at the MBK type malls in China. From experience I knew 120 Yuan was absolute bottom price for 3 copy shirts, so I would approach a stall, select 3 shirts. They would always start at something silly like 400 yuan, but one we we in the hundreds I would hand them a 100 Yuan note.

The shirts were in front of us and now they had two options. Either return my 100 Yuan or let me have the shirt.

2 thirds of the time I got the shirts and in the few cases when I got my 100 yuan back, it was absolute priceless to see a Chinaman let go of a dollar.

[keemapoot]

I think we are forgetting one important aspect when comparing the West with China.

When Enron and WorldCom swallowed up 1,000 of employees pensions, a few shred a tear on Oprah, but must just sucked it up.

On the other hand when a Chinaman loses a dollar he goes absolute berserk.

Hahahahahhahahha you got that right ...we are sore losers when it comes to losing money $$$$ its in our genes not to lose even a farthing !

I use to have great fun and using this to my advantage when negotiating prices at the MBK type malls in China. From experience I knew 120 Yuan was absolute bottom price for 3 copy shirts, so I would approach a stall, select 3 shirts. They would always start at something silly like 400 yuan, but one we we in the hundreds I would hand them a 100 Yuan note.

The shirts were in front of us and now they had two options. Either return my 100 Yuan or let me have the shirt.

2 thirds of the time I got the shirts and in the few cases when I got my 100 yuan back, it was absolute priceless to see a Chinaman let go of a dollar.

Haha, reading that reminds me of when I first started going to China in 1985. I'm sure Naam will remember. As a foreigner, you were not allowed to hold or use Yuan local currency to purchase anything. You could only use FECs, (Foreign Exchange Certificates) and negotiating was impossible because everything you could buy was at the 'Friendship Store' only. I always felt like a rock star in those days with crowds of children wanting to touch me as I strolled down the street. It's come a long way since the old commie days.

Back in the late seventies, as Deng Xiao Ping began the long road to reform in China, the protection of the Yuan “People’s Money” was so great that it was actually illegal for foreigners to possess any. To get around this, China developed the concept of the “Foreign Exchange Certificate” (FEC) which had to be purchased rather like one does for travelers cheques at your country of origin before traveling to the PRC. Issued by the Bank of China, they sold at a premium of about 20% more than the actual value of the Yuan. Carrying your FEC carefully with you, and also as a means to prevent and monitor the movements of foreigners and their contact with local Chinese, FEC were also only allowed to be used to certain approved designated outlets – various hotels and the so-called “Friendship Stores” (some of which still exist by that name today) – which stocked luxury ‘foreign goods’ – just the sort of thing foreigners wanted to buy while in China – and a ramshackle collection of expensive local silks and a few other tourist trade artifacts.

http://www.chinaexpat.com/2007/03/23/chinas-foreign-exchange-certificates-ten-years-gone-by.html/

[Publicus]

Quality of life is fresh air and clean waters ....this liberation thing that Comrade P keeps talking about is comically nonsensical

Pretty much like most of us living in Thailand chose this place for how far the retirement dollar is stretching and the lifestyle ...I don't think we came here for any liberation from politics etc etc

Most Chinese businessman are so practical ...unless the government serves a function to aid their business further , they are not even keen to establish any ties or have any reviews on whatever policies is posted or printed

Yup, when I said quality of life, I did not include this concept 'Comrad P' (I have to chuckle every time you call him that, as it reminds me of how my Russian Soviet partners used to address me as an inside joke) has that the Chinese are pregnant with the idea of free speech and free public expression. That is not true with any of the many overseas Chinese entrepreneurs I know.

My first Chinese partner when I was a young man, who helped me build important things and was like an older brother to me and my mentor on China, and who became a lifelong close friend grew up in the cultural revolution. During this purge of impure elements, and as a targeted doctoral-educated man from Beijing's most prestigious Uni, he lived in constant fear and hunger, wearing rags and cowering in a lean-to shack on the side of a small village road, literally living alongside several sheep. He only told those stories to me and very close friends. Later, he and several of his friends became very successful and wealthy and slowly and methodically brought their entire families to the US. He confided to me the distrust of the CCP, and related many similar stories of friends and associates, and it was never primarily about the freedom and liberty. It was simply about wanting a better life for his family and children. He also had issues when entering China in immigration during the time he had a Chinese passport, green card, and even when he had a US passport.

And, yes, as Pub correctly noted, these returning overseas Chinese are often treated with some amount of distrust, BUT as he does not have experience with this group, I can testify firsthand working side-by-side with him and others in China many years, that these returning Chinese diaspora are mostly envied, respected, and elevated in stature and face. He was always treated like a special person by others in China who wanted to emulate him. BUT, it was never about the politics or freedom of speech.

There is a difference though among the younger ones today, and the newly wealthy. They do have more of a stake in their China-generated success and are even more practical than that. All these lofty democracy concepts that people like Pub want to foist on them are just not important and plainly wrong. And guys like Jack Ma, founder of Alibaba, are very much nationalistic. So, it is a mixed bag of tricks. For sure, there are some that want democracy, but it is by and large a minority.

Fenqing do not care about your bucks or my small money. Fenqing care about Chinese supremacy period. Fenqing are the creation of the CCP and they presently consist of several generations of extreme nationalists and ethnic racists who are hellbent on restoring the (delusionary) Middle Kingdom.

The ongoing generational creation and nurturing of fenqing please the PLA with their attitude of racism and nationalism. The PLA and the Xi Jinping factions of CCP dominate and determine policy in the CCP, and they rely on the fenqing throughout the CCP to bring the population with 'em on both domestic and foreign issues, the latter currently manifesting in the SCS and East Sea issues.

While the corporations, business people of the West and in the PRC itself see everything in terms of money and personal enrichment, fenqing and their creators -- the CCP and its PLA -- think and act in only geostrategic terms. Hence each grouping has differing perspectives, views, purposes and goals, means and ends. Neither perspective is dominant so one should view the standpoint of each skeptically.

Fenqing want power and control while the business and corporate types want money and profits. While each overlaps, each is also separate and distinct from the other. This thread has had an unusual and also a strong dose of the money and bucks perspective. An overdose of it.

I interact with fenqing all the time when I'm in the CCP. They're everywhere I go. This is because fenqing are characteristically CCP yuppies. Young urban college educated, the fenqing have from birth received the intended CCP ideology of racial supremacy that dominates the fenqing world view. They are aggressive as holy hell against first, Japan and second, the United States. Aggressive in terms that are ethnic, racial, militarily. To them the bucks matter but bucks are not paramount because the bucks will follow once the Middle Kingdom reestablishes itself as the new global order.

People who live by and talk bucks are missing the most important part of the CCP ideology. The bottom line is the same one that is increasingly observed, i.e., the only thing we have to fear more than a rising China is a falling China. The rising CCP empire would, if successful, dominate the world by means of economics and finance -- bucks. A falling CCP which is what the world has before it at the present time going forward, will have to do it by military force. Ask a fenqing and he will tell you history has made the Chinese a hardy people able to sustain themselves through a Mad Max scenario.

In relation to the Court and the aftermath of its ruling that is coming soon....

China, however, is but one party to the South China Sea disputes. Hence, what the region demands of China post-verdict will be critical in evaluating how (and to what extent) the law will matter in the future. No state supports the nine dashed line as law. If China insists on the validity of the nine-dash line on the basis of historical justice, even in light of a ruling that rejects that argument, the world will enter, yet again, a new phase of conflict between the closed and open seas—this time within the militarized neighborhood of the Indo-Asia-Pacific.

http://images.smh.com.au/file/2014/04/11/5343124/China_%2520The%2520three%2520warfares.pdf?rand=1397212645609

Mr. Chee but many others also need to be aware that the Chinese can no longer be called by some in the West as inscruitible. Well known for instance are the CCP's "Three Warfares" of the 21st century that are designed to avoid firing a shot to win a modern war....

1) Psychological Warfare

2) Media Warfare

3) Legal Warfare

http://images.smh.com.au/file/2014/04/11/5343124/China_%2520The%2520three%2520warfares.pdf?rand=1397212645609

If the US objective were to gain port access for the USN in a particular country, for example, China would use the Three Warfares to adversely influence public opinion, to exert psychological pressure (i.e. threaten boycotts) and to mount legal challenges—all designed to render the environment inhospitable to US objectives.

CCP recognises nuclear war must be avoided always and forever. It also recognses that US "kinetic" military responses such as in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia et al are unsuccessful. CCP will not initiate nuclear conflict, but neither will CCP emulate US kinetic warfare. Hence the longer term, low intensity approach of the Three Warfares, as we see in the SCS and in the East Sea as well as elsewhere.

However, the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague is about to deliver the Three Warfares with a legal nuke that will also take with it the psychological component of the CCP's Three Warfares as well as the media one.

Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague hasn't yet issued its ruling and CCP are already back on their heels.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Publicus

[Publicus]

when comparing the West with China...

people like me who have visited Beijing and Shanghai in 1981 and compare what they saw then with what they see today are absolutely flabbergasted.

hats off for Deng Xiaoping!

Deng Xiaoping is the pig who gave China the Tiananmen Massacre in 1989.

As to this SCS and East Sea bellicosity against Japan, Deng would continue to oppose it. If Deng were still running the horror show of the CCP China, he would not be taking these actions. Of that many are more than reasonably confident.

The East Sea belligerence against Japan and the SCS aggression against Asean and the rest of us were put on the CCP agenda by Deng. However, not in this timeframe. Much later. Only after CCP had gained a sustainable CCP development, which is does not have as its economy slides away. And only after CCP obtained a decisive military supremacy over the US. Neither has occurred.

The current CCP leadership has, since 2009 when growth was still very high and in the wake of the 2008 Summer Olympics, got carried away with themselves. They began aggressions in the East Sea against Japan. It was as much as anything else to test the US in its alliance with Japan. Other US allies were supposed to see the US wither on the vine by failing to stand by Japan. However, the opposite occurred. US and Japan stood together to stand down CCP. CCP failed to separate US allies and strategic partners of the region from one another.

Things in the East Sea quickly became very quiet.

Hence the current more subtle CCP's Three Warfares approach in the SCS. Trouble is it is not subtle. Moreover, it is not being successful, as CCP has lined up the entire region against it as well as the G-7 with more to come if CCP persists.

The people who speak most glowingly or favorably of the CCP, and who speak most consistently, strongly and most often in support of it and them, are the people who are involved in the big bucks. My two English language schools, one in Thailand and one in CCP China, are small bucks. I have virtually nothing to loose. The big bucks guys who've been involved in CCP for decades and have been most enriched by it are the most vocal and the most patronising of the CCP new dynasty of emperors in business suits and their corruption. The endemic and massive corruption.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Publicus

[LawrenceChee]

Comrade P

So you publish here you interact with Fenqing all the time when you are in the CCP and then later classify them as CCP yuppies ?

I believe we can now close that book the the views you publish ....there is no logical person in China that believes what the Fenqing group says ...we understand they are angry youths with too much energy and not focused on getting a real job. But they are there and let them be

I believe 99% of the Americans don't give a hoot what the Ku Klux Clan says or publish ... Because it is filled with ridiculous claims and vile hate

You need help mate if you go to China , profess to interact with Fenqing all the time and then return here to flame the Chinese on this forum.

Comrade P has just shot himself in the foot with a nuclear strike ....now we understand the hate, the name calling and all the skewed one way views

Sunday Brunch time ....@ Hyatt Singapore

Edited April 30, 2016 by LawrenceChee

[keemapoot]

The people who speak most glowingly or favorably of the CCP, and who speak most consistently, strongly and most often in support of it and them, are the people who are involved in the big bucks. My two English language schools, one in Thailand and one in CCP China, are small bucks. I have virtually nothing to loose. The big bucks guys who've been involved in CCP for decades and have been most enriched by it are the most vocal and the most patronising of the CCP new dynasty of emperors in business suits and their corruption. The endemic and massive corruption.

Let me correct this for you: "The people who speak most moderately and reasonably of the CCP are the people who help create value and jobs for Chinese and Americans and world consumers, shareholders, investors and stakeholders and help build China into a responsible global partner."

Those big bucks guys you speak of may have blazed new trails, taken huge risks, been smarter, faster, stronger and more flexible than others and at the same time, may be good citizens and family men and care about their Chinese counterparts the same.

To quote Jerzy Kosinski through Melvin Douglas, "a good businessman is like a laborer in the garden. He works the flinty soil with his bare hands, waters it with the sweat of his brow, and creates a thing of value...for his family...and for the community."

So, let's lose this romantic liberal concept that all foreign businessmen who helped China get to this point are sitting in plush leather armchairs wearing silk suits and smoking Cohibas, sipping Louis XIII cognac in private dens stuffing envelopes of cash into CCP officials' pockets...though this does evoke certain memories. (Just kidding? )

Edited May 1, 2016 by keemapoot

[Publicus]

The people who speak most glowingly or favorably of the CCP, and who speak most consistently, strongly and most often in support of it and them, are the people who are involved in the big bucks. My two English language schools, one in Thailand and one in CCP China, are small bucks. I have virtually nothing to loose. The big bucks guys who've been involved in CCP for decades and have been most enriched by it are the most vocal and the most patronising of the CCP new dynasty of emperors in business suits and their corruption. The endemic and massive corruption.

Let me correct this for you: "The people who speak most moderately and reasonably of the CCP are the people who help create value and jobs for Chinese and Americans and world consumers, shareholders, investors and stakeholders and help build China into a responsible global partner."

Those big bucks guys you speak of may have blazed new trails, taken huge risks, been smarter, faster, stronger and more flexible than others and at the same time, may be good citizens and family men and care about their Chinese counterparts the same.

To quote Jerzy Kosinski through Melvin Douglas, "a good businessman is like a laborer in the garden. He works the flinty soil with his bare hands, waters it with the sweat of his brow, and creates a thing of value...for his family...and for the community."

So, let's lose this romantic liberal concept that all foreign businessmen who helped China get to this point are sitting in plush leather armchairs wearing silk suits and smoking Cohibas, sipping Louis XIII cognac in private dens stuffing envelopes of cash into CCP officials' pockets...though this does evoke certain memories. (Just kidding? )

One does not argue with the principles of what a good businessman does, in the USA.

The definition of a 'good businessman' in CCP or in say, Thailand is more than a bit different. This point applies to 'foreign devils' in the CCP and to fahlang bucks scrubbers in Thailand, to of course include elsewhere in the emerging economies.

When Americans gripe about losing jobs to the CCP China, it is the working Americans and their communities who are the aggrieved. Business and corporation owners and partners are the decision makers in relocating globally. It is they who benefit by the principles of the market and its relentless drive to maximise profit. It is they who sustain the CCP state-corporate beast and who give rise to the anti-trade and xenophobic wall building beast at home.

And let's recognise that when geostrategic factors begin to dominate the global landscape, as they do in the CCP's grandiose design to supplant USD as the global currency for example, investors of all kinds simply look at the color of one's money. Nothing more. This is a severe failure of character.

So let's just recognise and acknowledge the total picture.

This guy does not begrudge the next guy his own cigar and cognac. It's just that the next guy would be wise to attune himself to the real ideological and cultural intents, realities, purposes, goals of the elites who welcome his profits services.

[Publicus]

Comrade P

So you publish here you interact with Fenqing all the time when you are in the CCP and then later classify them as CCP yuppies ?

I believe we can now close that book the the views you publish ....there is no logical person in China that believes what the Fenqing group says ...we understand they are angry youths with too much energy and not focused on getting a real job. But they are there and let them be

I believe 99% of the Americans don't give a hoot what the Ku Klux Clan says or publish ... Because it is filled with ridiculous claims and vile hate

You need help mate if you go to China , profess to interact with Fenqing all the time and then return here to flame the Chinese on this forum.

Comrade P has just shot himself in the foot with a nuclear strike ....now we understand the hate, the name calling and all the skewed one way views

Sunday Brunch time ....@ Hyatt Singapore

Fenqing are worse than the worst right winger one could find in the United States. By far. No comparison.

Fenqing are the core and backbone drivers of the CCP ruling elite throughout the society and the country. Fenqing impact every event and occurrence with the standard government line. Fenqing are the militant arm of the absolutist doctrine that China is right and the world is wrong.

Not every fenqing readily accepts Marxism however because it is not Chinese. Marxism does not originate from any time or period of China's history or from any particular dynasty. Hence the nationalist and racist fenqing reject it as not Chinese enough...or as not Chinese period.

Downplaying or trying to dismiss this obvious and unmistakable driving force in the PRChina goes nowhere. It would be like this poster trying to deny there are lunatic rightwhingenuts on the loose in the USA. The very real rightwhinge and crackpot fringe has given the USA and the world Donald Trump and his promise of CCP trade wars, currency clashes, economic existentialism etc etc.

There are many Donald Trumps in the hierarchy of the CCP and there are many USA rightwingnut fenqing equivalents in the PRC who egg them on. In some instances, the CCP hierarchy and the fenqing are one and the same. It simply isn't reported as CCP always stays below the radar and behind its shroud of secrecy.

[Publicus]

And no it's not Gordon Chang although he's right too in his basic point, stated in his book, The Coming Collapse of China.

It is Prof. Michael Pettis who is professor of finance at Peking University in Beijing and who has for years blogged and spoken freely about the CCP economy.

Prof. Pettit's first and most important learners have of course been the CCP Boyz in Beijing. They learn from him and they believe him, so they try to do as he suggests.

However, the Boyz don't execute very well, as Prof. Pettis has bloged for a number of years and as he elaborates in this interview with Fortune zine.

Here is the bottom line of it.....

Meet the Man Who Predicted the Chinese Economic Collapse

JANUARY 23, 2016

"If you look at the 3rd plenum reforms in 2013, almost all of them aim to [boost consumption] But to actually accomplish these goals, you have to reduce somebody’s wealth, and guess whose wealth it is? The government and the wealthy. So there’s a lot of opposition."

"The [CCP] economists keep giving the [Xi and Li] administration terrible advice, like if you improve the efficiency of, say the peanut business, that’s going to make a difference. They have to recognize that reforms that don’t reduce debt or increase household wealth are simply not going to matter. And that’s the end of the story."

"If GDP growth is 1/10th of a point higher than expected, instead of applauding, we should be groaning. You can get any level of growth you want as long as you increase debt. Obama could get 7% growth if he wanted, if he tore Chicago to the ground and rebuilt it. It’s just a stupid way of getting growth."

http://fortune.com/2016/01/23/china-collapse/

Prof. Pettis, who'd been on Wall Street before being recruited by CCP, notes that the immediate problem of CCP is that it is pursuing GDP growth to try to catch up with the growth of debt. The opposite needs to occur however, i.e., the rate of debt growth must be exceeded by the rate of GDP growth. CCP's perennial 30 years of failures in this central respect constitute the failure of the CCP and of its PRC itself. The whole of it.

Coming eventually, gradually, inexorably.

The ratio of debt to GDP is approaching 300% and still growing fast and without any relief in sight or anticipated...or expected. Or possible.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Publicus

[Scott]

An oversized post has been removed. Sorry, but this messes up the formatting of the forum.

[boomerangutang]

Simple, China just needs to make ever more plastic things. If Chinese workers require too high wages, then find workers elsewhere who will do it for less. Same for pollution: if pollution levels rise so high in one region, that people pass out on sidewalks, ....then simply go to another region where that problem won't be as evident. Maybe the new region, the people will be hardier, or the winds blow away from town, or pollution rules are looser. The factory bosses and their families won't have to worry about pollution, because they're rich enough to move to a big overseas city like NYC and enroll their darling children in the most prestigious kindergartens. One of my favorite Trump quotes, "I love the Chinese people. They love me. Just the other day, a Chinese person bought a condo at Trump Towers for 55 million dollars. They love me."

[Publicus]

It has been noted by Prof. Christopher Balding, professor of economics at Peking University in Beijing, that CCP economists treat their financial markets as if CCP were running a shoe factory. That they haven't any idea of any difference. Never mind of the radical differences.

To the CCP Boyz, if the economy isn't moving and if the financial sector is moribund, well then order up more money (tons of it) to pay wages and expenses, ramp up yet more money into PR and advertising, then change some colors and throw out the tie strings -- and do it very quickly so you hope nobody notices. Then deny everything.

So, in respect of the needed rebalancing of the economy away from infrastructure to household wealth, “I think you guys already missed that off-ramp,” Prof Baldwin noted the other day.

The Royal Bank of Scotland thinks China has exactly the same problems as before and has abandoned the rebalancing objective to keep the economy from crashing.

“The economy remains beset by: an excessive reliance on investment driven growth; a structurally low share of GDP going to household incomes; overcapacity in key sectors; hidden non-performing loans in the banking sector [and] ad-hoc, reactive policy-making that fails to address the underlying distortions in the economy.”

Or in the words of famous psychologist Abraham Maslow: “I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/acd3f2fc-084a-11e6-876d-b823056b209b.html#axzz47aol6pIA

April 24, 2016

China debt load reaches record high as risk to economy mounts

The Chinese regime admitted it needs to reduce investment spending, cut overcapacity, and rebalance the economy toward more consumer spending. So what about the record increase in debt in the first quarter? Not to worry, says Xinhua, the regime’s mouthpiece in an editorial published May 2.

“China will not resort to large stimulus measures; policymakers are more than aware of the consequences of such a short-sighted program,” it says, adding that “fears are unfounded” and that “this rapid increase in loans is temporary."

The ramp up in debt is reminiscent of the financial crisis (Royal Bank of Scotland)

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/acd3f2fc-084a-11e6-876d-b823056b209b.html#axzz47aol6pIA

So that is 1.5 Trillion yuan "temporary loan" plus 2 Trillion yuan "temporary loan" plus 2.5 Trillion yuan "temporary loan" thrown at banks that have only increasing non-performing loans. Something like 8 Trillion yuan down the hole -- permanently.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Publicus

[boomerangutang]

A major factor for Thailand's economy tanking in 1997 was excess loans. Loans were very easy to get in the 90's in Thailand. A well-dressed handsome man could walk into a bank, show a pretty painting of an apartment building, with fountains and flower beds, and walk out with however much cash he said he needed. If that man was well-connected to Army or police brass, or to a politician or a rich family, then his quick wad of money would be ten times fatter. Thailand and China are similar in many ways. It sounds to little ol' me that, if Publicus' post is on the mark, China is heading down Bubble Lane, soon to arrive at Burst Bubble Avenue. But whereas Thailand's bubble burst was in the billions of $$'s, China's would be in the trillions. Methinks if I wrote a post like this in China, I might get a knock on the door in the wee hours, and it wouldn't be a cute neighbor lady dressed in a negligee, wanting to mess around.

[LawrenceChee]

Simple, China just needs to make ever more plastic things. If Chinese workers require too high wages, then find workers elsewhere who will do it for less. Same for pollution: if pollution levels rise so high in one region, that people pass out on sidewalks, ....then simply go to another region where that problem won't be as evident. Maybe the new region, the people will be hardier, or the winds blow away from town, or pollution rules are looser. The factory bosses and their families won't have to worry about pollution, because they're rich enough to move to a big overseas city like NYC and enroll their darling children in the most prestigious kindergartens. One of my favorite Trump quotes, "I love the Chinese people. They love me. Just the other day, a Chinese person bought a condo at Trump Towers for 55 million dollars. They love me."

Well soon it will be closer to home as Cambodia Laos and parts of Thailand pick up the manufacturing that China does not want for its pollution and low yields

Strange things will happen as the overall pricing won't fall since the Chinese will truck it up and send it from their ports to their usual customers in the west

I won't suggest going to the Chao Phaya river for the nightly fancy river cruise then as that murky brown may soon turn into a nightly fluorescent show of bio essence crap !

[Publicus]

CCP fanboyz ignore the developing trends or they don't care to discuss them.

By the year 2013 as many as 16 mostly rear echelon emerging market countries had begun to succeed the CCP's China in low wage low cost unskilled or low skilled manufacturing. The fact had been pointed out previously at the CCP threads over a couple of years. Yet, CCP fanboyz conduct themselves as if this development already underway did not exist or that it did not matter to 'em.

It probably doesn't matter to the CCP fanboyz cause they'll continue to make bucks off the CCP regardless. While the CCP's economy is moving inexorably for a "major structural adjustment" as in collapse and crash, it remains true CCP will still be there and will still generate bucks for the big bucks fahlang foreign devils there and elsewhere for some time to come.

PC16: Sixteen Countries Quietly Filling Void Left by Declining China

JULY 30, 2013

China's economic problems have opened the door for 16 disparate countries, from Ethiopia and Mexico to Indonesia and Peru, to become global drivers of manufacturing growth, according to a new report issued today by Stratfor, a leading geopolitical intelligence firm. As early as January of 2000, Stratfor has forecast the slowdown and shift of the Chinese economy and the firm asserts that China is now at the limits of its low wage, high growth phase and now asserts that the "The Post-China 16" or "PC16" will succeed it.

The PC16 by region:

• Indian Ocean Basin - Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, and Myanmar
• South China Sea periphery - Cambodia, Laos, the Philippines, and Vietnam
• Latin America - Dominican Republic, Mexico, Nicaragua, and Peru

Some of the countries on the list seem unlikely successors to an economic powerhouse like China, while others have been identified in reports by other firms.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pc16-sixteen-countries-quietly-filling-120000197.html

https://www.stratfor.com/weekly/pc16-identifying-chinas-successors

Anyone who thinks these backward countries with their Old World ways will fleece or hoodwink the USA or the EU must also believe that True North is somewhere down in the global South.

Fact is the CCP and its PRC are already fleeced as those who are standing there with the shearers well know. Except for the True Believers who continue to see CCP in all of its bushy fluff.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Publicus

[keemapoot]

^ The older report you cited correctly identifies Vietnam and Indo, but overstates the importance of Lao and Cambo in terms of global supply chain effectiveness. And, as usual, you grossly, inaccurately and prematurely predict the demise of a China you obviously despise.

Your analysis predicting the downfall of China is similar to those who predicted the downfall of US competitiveness as wages rose. Among others, there are two key reasons why China will continue to occupy a central role in this "expansion of the workroom" to Indo and Vietnam (and to Cambo & Lao to a lesser extent): shipping costs/frequency and air/sea port costs/frequency and availability.

Just as the US producers beat a path to China and invested in Chinese factories, and Chinese factories emerged in their own right, yes, those producers have now been seeking and finding cheaper places for low wage manufacturing. However, China has the most extensive and CHEAPEST international freight structure in global shipping, because of the massive infrastructure, and the FREQUENCY of vessel sailings. To understand this, think of yourself traveling to places like Bangkok, Hong Kong, and Singapore. Flights are cheapest to/from those destination hubs than other places in Asia because market demand drives more entrants and lower prices. It's cheaper to fly to Bangkok from anywhere than to fly to Phnom Penh.

So, the ability of Chinese producers to find feeder & break bulk shipping to the main China ports for onward shipping to the US/Europe/World in these places is superior than these small countries have by themselves. For that reason, Chinese/American/global MNC companies will simply plug and play the most optimized place for continued expansion of cheap labor. Other places cited in the report will develop slowly, but will not be competitors in the short term.

China will develop its backyard (in concert and in competition with other global players) in a rational way. This will result in job predictable displacement in China, but it will be the same issue now facing the Trump supporters in the USA. There will need to be a plan to move them up the value chain, retrain, retool and focus on higher technology, which China is doing. Huawei, ZTE, Datang, Lenovo, Xiaomi, and many other exciting and emerging tech companies are moving China up the value chain, just as America did. For sure, there is a bigger danger of job displacement with the huge number of people, and civil unrest, but it is not the beginning of the end of the CCP China.

[tonbridgebrit]

CCP fanboyz ignore the developing trends or they don't care to discuss them.

By the year 2013 as many as 16 mostly rear echelon emerging market countries had begun to succeed the CCP's China in low wage low cost unskilled or low skilled manufacturing. The fact had been pointed out previously at the CCP threads over a couple of years. Yet, CCP fanboyz conduct themselves as if this development already underway did not exist or that it did not matter to 'em.

It probably doesn't matter to the CCP fanboyz cause they'll continue to make bucks off the CCP regardless. While the CCP's economy is moving inexorably for a "major structural adjustment" as in collapse and crash, it remains true CCP will still be there and will still generate bucks for the big bucks fahlang foreign devils there and elsewhere for some time to come.

PC16: Sixteen Countries Quietly Filling Void Left by Declining China

JULY 30, 2013

China's economic problems have opened the door for 16 disparate countries, from Ethiopia and Mexico to Indonesia and Peru, to become global drivers of manufacturing growth, according to a new report issued today by Stratfor, a leading geopolitical intelligence firm. As early as January of 2000, Stratfor has forecast the slowdown and shift of the Chinese economy and the firm asserts that China is now at the limits of its low wage, high growth phase and now asserts that the "The Post-China 16" or "PC16" will succeed it.

The PC16 by region:

• Indian Ocean Basin - Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, and Myanmar
• South China Sea periphery - Cambodia, Laos, the Philippines, and Vietnam
• Latin America - Dominican Republic, Mexico, Nicaragua, and Peru

Look, Walmart has loads of goods from China, that's the Peoples' Republic of China, NOT Republic of China (Taiwan). It's been like this for over a decade, and it will be the same in five years time.

Anybody who has been to Laos, Burma and Cambodia, will know that THOSE countries are not going to replace China in any way whatsover. Get real, can any American imagine walking into Walmart and seeing stuff that has got 'Made in Burma' written on it ? Off-course not. It's absurd, just as absurd as claiming a military link between Washington and Vietnam.

[ExpatOilWorker]

CCP fanboyz ignore the developing trends or they don't care to discuss them.

By the year 2013 as many as 16 mostly rear echelon emerging market countries had begun to succeed the CCP's China in low wage low cost unskilled or low skilled manufacturing. The fact had been pointed out previously at the CCP threads over a couple of years. Yet, CCP fanboyz conduct themselves as if this development already underway did not exist or that it did not matter to 'em.

It probably doesn't matter to the CCP fanboyz cause they'll continue to make bucks off the CCP regardless. While the CCP's economy is moving inexorably for a "major structural adjustment" as in collapse and crash, it remains true CCP will still be there and will still generate bucks for the big bucks fahlang foreign devils there and elsewhere for some time to come.

PC16: Sixteen Countries Quietly Filling Void Left by Declining China

JULY 30, 2013

China's economic problems have opened the door for 16 disparate countries, from Ethiopia and Mexico to Indonesia and Peru, to become global drivers of manufacturing growth, according to a new report issued today by Stratfor, a leading geopolitical intelligence firm. As early as January of 2000, Stratfor has forecast the slowdown and shift of the Chinese economy and the firm asserts that China is now at the limits of its low wage, high growth phase and now asserts that the "The Post-China 16" or "PC16" will succeed it.

The PC16 by region:

• Indian Ocean Basin - Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, and Myanmar
• South China Sea periphery - Cambodia, Laos, the Philippines, and Vietnam
• Latin America - Dominican Republic, Mexico, Nicaragua, and Peru

Wal-Mart_Supercenter,_Luray,_Virginia.jpg

Look, Walmart has loads of goods from China, that's the Peoples' Republic of China, NOT Republic of China (Taiwan). It's been like this for over a decade, and it will be the same in five years time.

Anybody who has been to Laos, Burma and Cambodia, will know that THOSE countries are not going to replace China in any way whatsover. Get real, can any American imagine walking into Walmart and seeing stuff that has got 'Made in Burma' written on it ? Off-course not. It's absurd, just as absurd as claiming a military link between Washington and Vietnam.

It might correctly say Made in Myanmar and then everybody happily continue their shopping.

[boomerangutang]

CCP fanboyz ignore the developing trends or they don't care to discuss them.

By the year 2013 as many as 16 mostly rear echelon emerging market countries had begun to succeed the CCP's China in low wage low cost unskilled or low skilled manufacturing. The fact had been pointed out previously at the CCP threads over a couple of years. Yet, CCP fanboyz conduct themselves as if this development already underway did not exist or that it did not matter to 'em.

It probably doesn't matter to the CCP fanboyz cause they'll continue to make bucks off the CCP regardless. While the CCP's economy is moving inexorably for a "major structural adjustment" as in collapse and crash, it remains true CCP will still be there and will still generate bucks for the big bucks fahlang foreign devils there and elsewhere for some time to come.

PC16: Sixteen Countries Quietly Filling Void Left by Declining China

JULY 30, 2013

China's economic problems have opened the door for 16 disparate countries, from Ethiopia and Mexico to Indonesia and Peru, to become global drivers of manufacturing growth, according to a new report issued today by Stratfor, a leading geopolitical intelligence firm. As early as January of 2000, Stratfor has forecast the slowdown and shift of the Chinese economy and the firm asserts that China is now at the limits of its low wage, high growth phase and now asserts that the "The Post-China 16" or "PC16" will succeed it.

The PC16 by region:

• Indian Ocean Basin - Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, and Myanmar
• South China Sea periphery - Cambodia, Laos, the Philippines, and Vietnam
• Latin America - Dominican Republic, Mexico, Nicaragua, and Peru

Wal-Mart_Supercenter,_Luray,_Virginia.jpg

Look, Walmart has loads of goods from China, that's the Peoples' Republic of China, NOT Republic of China (Taiwan). It's been like this for over a decade, and it will be the same in five years time.

Anybody who has been to Laos, Burma and Cambodia, will know that THOSE countries are not going to replace China in any way whatsover. Get real, can any American imagine walking into Walmart and seeing stuff that has got 'Made in Burma' written on it ? Off-course not. It's absurd, just as absurd as claiming a military link between Washington and Vietnam.

Economic trends are known to vacillate. Who would have guessed, in 1945, that Japan and Germany (both defeated and heavily bombed) would have emerged as two of the top economic powerhouses within years? Laos, Burma and Cambodia can and do provide low cost labor for Chinese products. It's just a short step away for an entrepreneur to segue from making products for another big company in a different country, to making similar products and exporting them directly, thereby making lots more money for the manufacturing company.

Just 20 yrs ago, who would have predicted China would become a giant economic machine in such a short time? Things change. People adjust. As quickly as a country grows in economic prowess, that same country can decline. Many industries which the US used to dominate, are now not found in the US. Trump can't even get his pretty ties sewn in the US. But even that could change. US entrepreneurs are continually adjusting. Currently, the world's largest passive solar power generating facility is in Tonopah California. They've refined their operation to be able to generate power even if there's 3 days of no sun. Now, those innovators can export their expertise if they so choose. Other innovators in California are developing ways to store solar power by using compressed air. Innovators in Scotland and Portugal are honing their skills/technology at harnessing wave power. The stories are many. What innovations are coming out of China? Maybe someone figured a way to make a talking panda doll, I don't know. For a country with such a large population which prides itself on business acumen, there sure is a paucity of innovations coming from there.

[LawrenceChee]

CCP fanboyz ignore the developing trends or they don't care to discuss them.

By the year 2013 as many as 16 mostly rear echelon emerging market countries had begun to succeed the CCP's China in low wage low cost unskilled or low skilled manufacturing. The fact had been pointed out previously at the CCP threads over a couple of years. Yet, CCP fanboyz conduct themselves as if this development already underway did not exist or that it did not matter to 'em.

It probably doesn't matter to the CCP fanboyz cause they'll continue to make bucks off the CCP regardless. While the CCP's economy is moving inexorably for a "major structural adjustment" as in collapse and crash, it remains true CCP will still be there and will still generate bucks for the big bucks fahlang foreign devils there and elsewhere for some time to come.

PC16: Sixteen Countries Quietly Filling Void Left by Declining China

JULY 30, 2013

China's economic problems have opened the door for 16 disparate countries, from Ethiopia and Mexico to Indonesia and Peru, to become global drivers of manufacturing growth, according to a new report issued today by Stratfor, a leading geopolitical intelligence firm. As early as January of 2000, Stratfor has forecast the slowdown and shift of the Chinese economy and the firm asserts that China is now at the limits of its low wage, high growth phase and now asserts that the "The Post-China 16" or "PC16" will succeed it.

The PC16 by region:

• Indian Ocean Basin - Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, and Myanmar
• South China Sea periphery - Cambodia, Laos, the Philippines, and Vietnam
• Latin America - Dominican Republic, Mexico, Nicaragua, and Peru

Wal-Mart_Supercenter,_Luray,_Virginia.jpg

Look, Walmart has loads of goods from China, that's the Peoples' Republic of China, NOT Republic of China (Taiwan). It's been like this for over a decade, and it will be the same in five years time.

Anybody who has been to Laos, Burma and Cambodia, will know that THOSE countries are not going to replace China in any way whatsover. Get real, can any American imagine walking into Walmart and seeing stuff that has got 'Made in Burma' written on it ? Off-course not. It's absurd, just as absurd as claiming a military link between Washington and Vietnam.

Economic trends are known to vacillate. Who would have guessed, in 1945, that Japan and Germany (both defeated and heavily bombed) would have emerged as two of the top economic powerhouses within years? Laos, Burma and Cambodia can and do provide low cost labor for Chinese products. It's just a short step away for an entrepreneur to segue from making products for another big company in a different country, to making similar products and exporting them directly, thereby making lots more money for the manufacturing company.

Just 20 yrs ago, who would have predicted China would become a giant economic machine in such a short time? Things change. People adjust. As quickly as a country grows in economic prowess, that same country can decline. Many industries which the US used to dominate, are now not found in the US. Trump can't even get his pretty ties sewn in the US. But even that could change. US entrepreneurs are continually adjusting. Currently, the world's largest passive solar power generating facility is in Tonopah California. They've refined their operation to be able to generate power even if there's 3 days of no sun. Now, those innovators can export their expertise if they so choose. Other innovators in California are developing ways to store solar power by using compressed air. Innovators in Scotland and Portugal are honing their skills/technology at harnessing wave power. The stories are many. What innovations are coming out of China? Maybe someone figured a way to make a talking panda doll, I don't know. For a country with such a large population which prides itself on business acumen, there sure is a paucity of innovations coming from there.

The west likes to gauge a successful country by its own standards -

1) free speech (aka speak trash in public tv and not get flogged) ,

2) innovations (things invented that is not likely to benefit 1.3 billion )

3) ability to vote in a democratic fashion ( although you really only have 2 parties that have an ongoing reputation of lack of ideas)

The Chinese rejected this and know this is not right as much as full communism will not help 1.3 billion survive ; they have done their own way a mixture of systems and governance they believe is right and in the spirit of freedom as defined should be allowed to discover their own destiny if it works

As for innovations and those who keep harping for it ....Lenovo did what IBM could not do ....sell a TOP model laptop to millions at a fraction of a price and make profits ;

Xiaomi did what Apple or Samsung could not do ...make a TOP notch phone for the masses at a price the millions of Chinese can afford

That in my books is innovation although it may satisfy some

[keemapoot]

CCP fanboyz ignore the developing trends or they don't care to discuss them.

By the year 2013 as many as 16 mostly rear echelon emerging market countries had begun to succeed the CCP's China in low wage low cost unskilled or low skilled manufacturing. The fact had been pointed out previously at the CCP threads over a couple of years. Yet, CCP fanboyz conduct themselves as if this development already underway did not exist or that it did not matter to 'em.

It probably doesn't matter to the CCP fanboyz cause they'll continue to make bucks off the CCP regardless. While the CCP's economy is moving inexorably for a "major structural adjustment" as in collapse and crash, it remains true CCP will still be there and will still generate bucks for the big bucks fahlang foreign devils there and elsewhere for some time to come.

PC16: Sixteen Countries Quietly Filling Void Left by Declining China

JULY 30, 2013

China's economic problems have opened the door for 16 disparate countries, from Ethiopia and Mexico to Indonesia and Peru, to become global drivers of manufacturing growth, according to a new report issued today by Stratfor, a leading geopolitical intelligence firm. As early as January of 2000, Stratfor has forecast the slowdown and shift of the Chinese economy and the firm asserts that China is now at the limits of its low wage, high growth phase and now asserts that the "The Post-China 16" or "PC16" will succeed it.

The PC16 by region:

• Indian Ocean Basin - Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, and Myanmar
• South China Sea periphery - Cambodia, Laos, the Philippines, and Vietnam
• Latin America - Dominican Republic, Mexico, Nicaragua, and Peru

Wal-Mart_Supercenter,_Luray,_Virginia.jpg

Look, Walmart has loads of goods from China, that's the Peoples' Republic of China, NOT Republic of China (Taiwan). It's been like this for over a decade, and it will be the same in five years time.

Anybody who has been to Laos, Burma and Cambodia, will know that THOSE countries are not going to replace China in any way whatsover. Get real, can any American imagine walking into Walmart and seeing stuff that has got 'Made in Burma' written on it ? Off-course not. It's absurd, just as absurd as claiming a military link between Washington and Vietnam.

Economic trends are known to vacillate. Who would have guessed, in 1945, that Japan and Germany (both defeated and heavily bombed) would have emerged as two of the top economic powerhouses within years? Laos, Burma and Cambodia can and do provide low cost labor for Chinese products. It's just a short step away for an entrepreneur to segue from making products for another big company in a different country, to making similar products and exporting them directly, thereby making lots more money for the manufacturing company.

Just 20 yrs ago, who would have predicted China would become a giant economic machine in such a short time? Things change. People adjust. As quickly as a country grows in economic prowess, that same country can decline. Many industries which the US used to dominate, are now not found in the US. Trump can't even get his pretty ties sewn in the US. But even that could change. US entrepreneurs are continually adjusting. Currently, the world's largest passive solar power generating facility is in Tonopah California. They've refined their operation to be able to generate power even if there's 3 days of no sun. Now, those innovators can export their expertise if they so choose. Other innovators in California are developing ways to store solar power by using compressed air. Innovators in Scotland and Portugal are honing their skills/technology at harnessing wave power. The stories are many. What innovations are coming out of China? Maybe someone figured a way to make a talking panda doll, I don't know. For a country with such a large population which prides itself on business acumen, there sure is a paucity of innovations coming from there.

The west likes to gauge a successful country by its own standards -

1) free speech (aka speak trash in public tv and not get flogged) ,

2) innovations (things invented that is not likely to benefit 1.3 billion )

3) ability to vote in a democratic fashion ( although you really only have 2 parties that have an ongoing reputation of lack of ideas)

The Chinese rejected this and know this is not right as much as full communism will not help 1.3 billion survive ; they have done their own way a mixture of systems and governance they believe is right and in the spirit of freedom as defined should be allowed to discover their own destiny if it works

As for innovations and those who keep harping for it ....Lenovo did what IBM could not do ....sell a TOP model laptop to millions at a fraction of a price and make profits ;

Xiaomi did what Apple or Samsung could not do ...make a TOP notch phone for the masses at a price the millions of Chinese can afford

That in my books is innovation although it may satisfy some

China is just starting to innovate and create. They have had to largely copy to catch up to the west. I just posted about this in the other thread on China in the SCS.

Sent from my GT-N5100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Publicus]

It seems CCP would rather have Trump than HRC despite Trump's wild statements about the CCP.

Trump moreover has no stated (or suspected) awareness of the CCP's crumbling and declining economy that beginning last year entered a long period of increasing seizures from the equity markets to its currency and so on. Long period as in a decade of decline and economic stagnation.

As this poster has noted consistently in the numerous threads on these topics, China will always be there and there it will remain, even after the economic grim reaper finally makes his serious business housecall. There always has been wealth in China and China will continue to have wealth...so the foreign the money grubbers will predictably continue to look only at the color of people's money while ignoring the CCP's fatally flawed ideology and the pre-CCP Chinese history of failure.

In China, a frequent target of Mr. Trump’s criticism, he is widely viewed as a pragmatist who is less hawkish and less focused on human rights than Mrs. Clinton is.

His proposal to impose high taxes on Chinese goods receives little attention there, and his talk of China’s “raping” the United States in unfair trade deals has been met with shrugs, as if to say that charge is nothing new. Instead, the conversation focuses on Mr. Trump’s business success or his pronouncements on preventing foreign Muslims from entering the United States, an attitude that jibes with the antipathy in much of China toward the Muslim population in the western province of Xinjiang.

“Many in China believe a pro-business Republican president will tend to be pragmatic and China-friendly, if not pro-China,” said Wang Dong, associate professor of international studies at Peking University. “Therefore, many in China tend to view Trump’s remarks of imposing more than 30 percent of tariffs on China as rhetorical campaign language.”

Mr. Trump’s assertion that American troops in South Korea and Japan should be sent back to the United States is in alignment with official, though rarely stated, Chinese goals. But his suggestion, later reversed in part, that Japan and South Korea should be able to develop their own nuclear arsenals alarmed Beijing, especially the notion that Japan, the occupier of China in World War II, would become a nuclear power.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/06/world/europe/donald-trump-foreign-policy.html?&moduleDetail=section-news-2&action=click&contentCollection=Politics&region=Footer&module=MoreInSection&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=article

[LawrenceChee]

Trump is an idiot CCP can deal with allowing him to brandish some ridiculous stuff on stage and get his 15 mins of fame

HC is tougher but less effective as her stance as Secretary of State was already well stated and she has not much she has not revealed that she can do to China

Bottom line whoever wins is going to have their time showing their toughness to China but life goes on and the CCP will let them have their 4 years.

The next president and the next still have to deal with President Xi and share the world stage with him