US is now averaging more than one mass shooting per day in 2015

[lostoday]

A friend sent me this observation I thought might be relevant here:

Actor Mark Hamill suggested America should take a cue from Australia in banning certain types of guns. That included a buy back.

For the cost of just one war in Iraq, America could buy every gun in the United States for $1000 each. And still have well over a trillion dollars left to buy every gun shop including lifetime pension for its owners. Plus buy every gun factory.

Too bad guns don't kill people the way 9/11 did.

T

Would the drug lords and gang bangers sell their guns back to the government?

[Thakkar]

A friend sent me this observation I thought might be relevant here:

Actor Mark Hamill suggested America should take a cue from Australia in banning certain types of guns. That included a buy back.

For the cost of just one war in Iraq, America could buy every gun in the United States for $1000 each. And still have well over a trillion dollars left to buy every gun shop including lifetime pension for its owners. Plus buy every gun factory.

Too bad guns don't kill people the way 9/11 did.

T

Would the drug lords and gang bangers sell their guns back to the government?

Certainly solving the drug problem will help reduce gun violence. Just as curing cancer will reduce a lot of tragic deaths.

In the meantime, much unnecessary death can be reduced by tightening gun control the way Australia did. The results in Australia speak for themselves.

Away from drug lords and gangsters, some 62% of gun deaths in America are from suicide. Sure, suicidal people might find other ways to kill themselves (or maybe not, see below*), but why not make it harder for them?

*

A 1992 report in the New England Journal of Medicine shows an association between household firearm ownership and gun suicide rates, finding that individuals living in a home where firearms are present are more likely to commit suicide than those individuals who do not own firearms Other research has indicated the association is not statistically significant between countries...

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States#Suicides_involving_firearms)

Of the gun related deaths that are homicides, no doubt most are connected to drugs and gangs. But, a significant number that are not gang/drug related, perhaps in the high hundreds (every year!) arguably could've been prevented but for the easy access to guns.

Another problem with tens of millions of households having guns is that EVERY YEAR (on average) a quarter of a million guns are stolen in household burglaries. Those stolen guns aren't going to be used for good or to protect true patriots from a tyrannical government. (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fshbopc0510.pdf)

Most of the pro gun arguments make no sense. Here's a comedian who expresses that much better than I can ( and, yes, I've posted this before, so sue me):

T

Edited August 31, 2015 by Thakkar

[Thakkar]

The YouTube link I tried to post above doesn't seem to be working. Anyway, search for "Jim Jefferies gun control"

Edited August 31, 2015 by Thakkar

[UKJASE]

here is one link that backs up what i said

https://www.change.org/p/stop-illegal-gun-smuggling-that-fuels-violence-in-mexico

part of it states "A congressional report from last year noted that 70% of the weapons seized in Mexico in 2009 and 2010 and submitted for tracing came from the United States."

Is your point the country that manufacturers the weapons is responsible for the deaths they cause?

• United States: 31%
• Russia: 27%
• China: 5%
• Germany: 5%
• France: 5%
• U.K.: 4%
• Spain: 3%
• Italy: 3%
• Ukraine: 3%
• Israel: 2%
• Read more: http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/the-worlds-10-largest-arms-exporters.html/?a=viewall#ixzz3kP9I55Le

the more guns the US produces, and puts out into circulation, that are then used to murder people, means that the US shares a large part of the responsibility for these deaths, yes

if the US kept a tighter leash on the huge amount of guns it produced, and didn't allow them to fall into the hands of children, gangsters, mentally unstable people etc, then there would be a lot less mass shootings and murders in the world today.

that is undeniable surely?

i have never heard of a mass shooting taking place, without a gun

[chuckd]

<snip>

and for all the deaths in south american cities, where do you presume most the guns come from? The US of course

So the US need for a right to bear arms, leads to many deaths in other countries too

Your presumption might not be spot on, as they say in the UK.

Here are a few of the larger manufacturers.

1. Beretta, an Italian company.

2. Browning Fabrique National, a Belgian company.

3. Glock, an Austrian company.

4. Heckler & Koch, a German company

5. Israel Military Industries, an Israeli company.

6. Izhmash, a Russian company, manufacturers of the AK series.

7. Sig Sauer, a German company.

8. Walther, a German company.

9. Colt, a US company.

10. Remington, a US company that no longer makes handguns.

11. Smith & Wesson, a US company.

12. OTHER MAKES

Less well known manufacturers include China's Norinco, Zastava from Serbia and Taurus, which is based in Brazil. Norinco (China North Industries Limited) mass produces tens of thousands of cheap pistols for export.

Other brands are Spain's Astra, CZ from the Czech Republic, MKE of Turkey and Miroku, based in Japan.

Article here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6294242.stm

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Now permit me to presume you can provide a link that supports your statement that:

"and for all the deaths in south american cities, where do you presume most the guns come from? The US of course"

here is one link that backs up what i said

https://www.change.org/p/stop-illegal-gun-smuggling-that-fuels-violence-in-mexico

part of it states "A congressional report from last year noted that 70% of the weapons seized in Mexico in 2009 and 2010 and submitted for tracing came from the United States."

I hate to bust your bubble but your link proves nothing of the sort.

Let me begin by pointing out your original statement quoted above...

"and for all the deaths in south american cities, where do you presume most the guns come from? The US of course"

​The link you provided to prove your point was titled, "Stop Illegal Gun Smuggling That Fuels Violence in Mexico".

​In the first place Mexico is in the North American continent, NOT the South American continent. There are no South American cities located in Mexico.

In the second place, your link says 70% of those weapons seized and submitted for tracing came from the US. There is no mention of how many weapons that were seized were NOT given to the ATF to trace.

If authorities seized 300,000 weapons but only turned 35,000 of them over for tracing and then 70% of the 35,000 were found to have come through or from the US, it will have a direct impact on the percentages.

In other words, 70% of 35,000 is 24,500, yet 24,500 is only 8.17% of the 300,000 total.

When you can determine exactly how many total weapons were seized, how many were turned over to ATF for tracing and then how many were actually traced to the US, please post it. I would love to see it.

By the way, look up Fast and Furious gun smuggle originating out of Holder's Justice Department in 2009. Obama's minions smuggled over 2,000 guns into Mexico. Nobody ever answered for that either.

And at the end of the day, Mexico will still not be in South America.

[chuckd]

here is one link that backs up what i said

https://www.change.org/p/stop-illegal-gun-smuggling-that-fuels-violence-in-mexico

part of it states "A congressional report from last year noted that 70% of the weapons seized in Mexico in 2009 and 2010 and submitted for tracing came from the United States."

Is your point the country that manufacturers the weapons is responsible for the deaths they cause?

• United States: 31%
• Russia: 27%
• China: 5%
• Germany: 5%
• France: 5%
• U.K.: 4%
• Spain: 3%
• Italy: 3%
• Ukraine: 3%
• Israel: 2%
• Read more: http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/the-worlds-10-largest-arms-exporters.html/?a=viewall#ixzz3kP9I55Le

the more guns the US produces, and puts out into circulation, that are then used to murder people, means that the US shares a large part of the responsibility for these deaths, yes

if the US kept a tighter leash on the huge amount of guns it produced, and didn't allow them to fall into the hands of children, gangsters, mentally unstable people etc, then there would be a lot less mass shootings and murders in the world today.

that is undeniable surely?

i have never heard of a mass shooting taking place, without a gun

Then presumably you would have the same position relating to automobile manufacturers.

Ford, Chevrolet, et al, would then be responsible for every death that occurred in an accident. The auto manufacturer should foresee the possibility of a mentally unbalanced, inexperienced or immature person getting behind the wheel and causing death, therefore it is the auto manufacturer's fault.

Please don't try and claim the analogy isn't germane. If you can blame one inanimate object for the actions of the holder, then you can blame an auto manufacturer for the actions of a driver.

I never heard of an automobile accident taking place without an automobile.

You need to stop digging and put the shovel down.

[UKJASE]

<snip>

and for all the deaths in south american cities, where do you presume most the guns come from? The US of course

So the US need for a right to bear arms, leads to many deaths in other countries too

Your presumption might not be spot on, as they say in the UK.

Here are a few of the larger manufacturers.

1. Beretta, an Italian company.

2. Browning Fabrique National, a Belgian company.

3. Glock, an Austrian company.

4. Heckler & Koch, a German company

5. Israel Military Industries, an Israeli company.

6. Izhmash, a Russian company, manufacturers of the AK series.

7. Sig Sauer, a German company.

8. Walther, a German company.

9. Colt, a US company.

10. Remington, a US company that no longer makes handguns.

11. Smith & Wesson, a US company.

12. OTHER MAKES

Less well known manufacturers include China's Norinco, Zastava from Serbia and Taurus, which is based in Brazil. Norinco (China North Industries Limited) mass produces tens of thousands of cheap pistols for export.

Other brands are Spain's Astra, CZ from the Czech Republic, MKE of Turkey and Miroku, based in Japan.

Article here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6294242.stm

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Now permit me to presume you can provide a link that supports your statement that:

"and for all the deaths in south american cities, where do you presume most the guns come from? The US of course"

here is one link that backs up what i said

https://www.change.org/p/stop-illegal-gun-smuggling-that-fuels-violence-in-mexico

part of it states "A congressional report from last year noted that 70% of the weapons seized in Mexico in 2009 and 2010 and submitted for tracing came from the United States."

I hate to bust your bubble but your link proves nothing of the sort.

Let me begin by pointing out your original statement quoted above...

"and for all the deaths in south american cities, where do you presume most the guns come from? The US of course"

​The link you provided to prove your point was titled, "Stop Illegal Gun Smuggling That Fuels Violence in Mexico".

​In the first place Mexico is in the North American continent, NOT the South American continent. There are no South American cities located in Mexico.

In the second place, your link says 70% of those weapons seized and submitted for tracing came from the US. There is no mention of how many weapons that were seized were NOT given to the ATF to trace.

If authorities seized 300,000 weapons but only turned 35,000 of them over for tracing and then 70% of the 35,000 were found to have come through or from the US, it will have a direct impact on the percentages.

In other words, 70% of 35,000 is 24,500, yet 24,500 is only 8.17% of the 300,000 total.

When you can determine exactly how many total weapons were seized, how many were turned over to ATF for tracing and then how many were actually traced to the US, please post it. I would love to see it.

By the way, look up Fast and Furious gun smuggle originating out of Holder's Justice Department in 2009. Obama's minions smuggled over 2,000 guns into Mexico. Nobody ever answered for that either.

And at the end of the day, Mexico will still not be in South America.

Clutching at straws a bit here aren't you Chuck?!

70% of the guns tested, from the random sample provided, were from the US.

where would you think the guns all came from?

i read mainly florida.

i suppose it's good business for some people.

[UKJASE]

here is one link that backs up what i said

https://www.change.org/p/stop-illegal-gun-smuggling-that-fuels-violence-in-mexico

part of it states "A congressional report from last year noted that 70% of the weapons seized in Mexico in 2009 and 2010 and submitted for tracing came from the United States."

Is your point the country that manufacturers the weapons is responsible for the deaths they cause?

• United States: 31%
• Russia: 27%
• China: 5%
• Germany: 5%
• France: 5%
• U.K.: 4%
• Spain: 3%
• Italy: 3%
• Ukraine: 3%
• Israel: 2%
• Read more: http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/the-worlds-10-largest-arms-exporters.html/?a=viewall#ixzz3kP9I55Le

the more guns the US produces, and puts out into circulation, that are then used to murder people, means that the US shares a large part of the responsibility for these deaths, yes

if the US kept a tighter leash on the huge amount of guns it produced, and didn't allow them to fall into the hands of children, gangsters, mentally unstable people etc, then there would be a lot less mass shootings and murders in the world today.

that is undeniable surely?

i have never heard of a mass shooting taking place, without a gun

Then presumably you would have the same position relating to automobile manufacturers.

Ford, Chevrolet, et al, would then be responsible for every death that occurred in an accident. The auto manufacturer should foresee the possibility of a mentally unbalanced, inexperienced or immature person getting behind the wheel and causing death, therefore it is the auto manufacturer's fault.

Please don't try and claim the analogy isn't germane. If you can blame one inanimate object for the actions of the holder, then you can blame an auto manufacturer for the actions of a driver.

I never heard of an automobile accident taking place without an automobile.

You need to stop digging and put the shovel down.

all countries in the world realise that the benefits of the automobile, outweigh the drawbacks, and hence the car has not been banned in any country

but this is not the case with the gun, and most countries throughout the world have banned the general sale of guns, as the benefits are few and the drawbacks are numerous

may i quote the video mentioned above (great video BTW)

"your first amendment, allows me to say that your second amendment, sucks balls"

[MW72]

The US a failed country.

In the Netherlands we had 3 murders per week (most of them not gun related)

Think something is seriously wrong there, the US and Thailand look quite similar.

When someone from a unimportant country like the Netherlands calls the US a failed country, I have to laugh. The irony here is you chose to leave there and live in a really screwed up country like Thailand, which, in your opinion, ranks right down there with America.

Go back to humping and pumping.

Now now gents. It's all getting a bit tasty slagging off each others countries. Opinions are fair game.

Just to counter the unimportant claim RE Holland; the Dutch East India company was the first company to issue shares which has had a very important effect on all our lives.

The US need not worry. All of its problems will soon be solved. I just hear that Kanye West is running for president.

[chuckd]

Your presumption might not be spot on, as they say in the UK.

Here are a few of the larger manufacturers.

1. Beretta, an Italian company.

2. Browning Fabrique National, a Belgian company.

3. Glock, an Austrian company.

4. Heckler & Koch, a German company

5. Israel Military Industries, an Israeli company.

6. Izhmash, a Russian company, manufacturers of the AK series.

7. Sig Sauer, a German company.

8. Walther, a German company.

9. Colt, a US company.

10. Remington, a US company that no longer makes handguns.

11. Smith & Wesson, a US company.

12. OTHER MAKES

Less well known manufacturers include China's Norinco, Zastava from Serbia and Taurus, which is based in Brazil. Norinco (China North Industries Limited) mass produces tens of thousands of cheap pistols for export.

Other brands are Spain's Astra, CZ from the Czech Republic, MKE of Turkey and Miroku, based in Japan.

Article here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6294242.stm

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Now permit me to presume you can provide a link that supports your statement that:

"and for all the deaths in south american cities, where do you presume most the guns come from? The US of course"

here is one link that backs up what i said

https://www.change.org/p/stop-illegal-gun-smuggling-that-fuels-violence-in-mexico

part of it states "A congressional report from last year noted that 70% of the weapons seized in Mexico in 2009 and 2010 and submitted for tracing came from the United States."

I hate to bust your bubble but your link proves nothing of the sort.

Let me begin by pointing out your original statement quoted above...

"and for all the deaths in south american cities, where do you presume most the guns come from? The US of course"

​The link you provided to prove your point was titled, "Stop Illegal Gun Smuggling That Fuels Violence in Mexico".

​In the first place Mexico is in the North American continent, NOT the South American continent. There are no South American cities located in Mexico.

In the second place, your link says 70% of those weapons seized and submitted for tracing came from the US. There is no mention of how many weapons that were seized were NOT given to the ATF to trace.

If authorities seized 300,000 weapons but only turned 35,000 of them over for tracing and then 70% of the 35,000 were found to have come through or from the US, it will have a direct impact on the percentages.

In other words, 70% of 35,000 is 24,500, yet 24,500 is only 8.17% of the 300,000 total.

When you can determine exactly how many total weapons were seized, how many were turned over to ATF for tracing and then how many were actually traced to the US, please post it. I would love to see it.

By the way, look up Fast and Furious gun smuggle originating out of Holder's Justice Department in 2009. Obama's minions smuggled over 2,000 guns into Mexico. Nobody ever answered for that either.

And at the end of the day, Mexico will still not be in South America.

Clutching at straws a bit here aren't you Chuck?!

70% of the guns tested, from the random sample provided, were from the US.

where would you think the guns all came from?

i read mainly florida.

i suppose it's good business for some people.

No straws left after your first post. I had to rely on facts.

1. In your latest missive trying to dig out of the hole, where in the article on Mexico did it say the guns provided for tracing were a "random sample"?

2. You ask where I think the guns all came from. I must ask are we talking about South America of Mexico? Both are decidedly different markets.

3. If you think the weapons are coming from Florida, you are probably wrong yet again but I won't know until you decide where your argument is based on.

Make up your mind whether you want to discuss South America or Mexico and let me know.

[FritsSikkink]

.

We're now averaging more than one mass shooting per day in 2015

Pure bullshit.

One shooting per day might be believable. One mass shooting per day sounds like "pure bullshit" indeed.

maybe you should read a bit more. 1 shooting per day = less than 400 people a day. there are 30000 killed by guns a year in th US

[chuckd]

Is your point the country that manufacturers the weapons is responsible for the deaths they cause?

https://www.change.org/p/stop-illegal-gun-smuggling-that-fuels-violence-in-mexico

part of it states "A congressional report from last year noted that 70% of the weapons seized in Mexico in 2009 and 2010 and submitted for tracing came from the United States."

• United States: 31%
• Russia: 27%
• China: 5%
• Germany: 5%
• France: 5%
• U.K.: 4%
• Spain: 3%
• Italy: 3%
• Ukraine: 3%
• Israel: 2%
• Read more: http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/the-worlds-10-largest-arms-exporters.html/?a=viewall#ixzz3kP9I55Le

the more guns the US produces, and puts out into circulation, that are then used to murder people, means that the US shares a large part of the responsibility for these deaths, yes

if the US kept a tighter leash on the huge amount of guns it produced, and didn't allow them to fall into the hands of children, gangsters, mentally unstable people etc, then there would be a lot less mass shootings and murders in the world today.

that is undeniable surely?

i have never heard of a mass shooting taking place, without a gun

Then presumably you would have the same position relating to automobile manufacturers.

Ford, Chevrolet, et al, would then be responsible for every death that occurred in an accident. The auto manufacturer should foresee the possibility of a mentally unbalanced, inexperienced or immature person getting behind the wheel and causing death, therefore it is the auto manufacturer's fault.

Please don't try and claim the analogy isn't germane. If you can blame one inanimate object for the actions of the holder, then you can blame an auto manufacturer for the actions of a driver.

I never heard of an automobile accident taking place without an automobile.

You need to stop digging and put the shovel down.

all countries in the world realise that the benefits of the automobile, outweigh the drawbacks, and hence the car has not been banned in any country

but this is not the case with the gun, and most countries throughout the world have banned the general sale of guns, as the benefits are few and the drawbacks are numerous

may i quote the video mentioned above (great video BTW)

"your first amendment, allows me to say that your second amendment, sucks balls"

What does the legality of owning a weapon have to do with the price of tea in China?

Talk about clutching at straws...

[beechguy]

.

We're now averaging more than one mass shooting per day in 2015

Pure bullshit.

One shooting per day might be believable. One mass shooting per day sounds like "pure bullshit" indeed.

maybe you should read a bit more. 1 shooting per day = less than 400 people a day. there are 30000 killed by guns a year in th US

So we're going to consider suicide as part of the mass shootings?

[FritsSikkink]

.

We're now averaging more than one mass shooting per day in 2015

Pure bullshit.

One shooting per day might be believable. One mass shooting per day sounds like "pure bullshit" indeed.

maybe you should read a bit more. 1 shooting per day = less than 400 people a day. there are 30000 killed by guns a year in th US

So we're going to consider suicide as part of the mass shootings?

you can twist an turn whatever you want. your society is out of control with so many lunatics with a gun. don't forget the killings between little children because their parents don't keep their guns at a save place

[beechguy]

Frits Sikkink, I'm not twisting anything, just sticking to the facts. I guess that's too much for those, from the nanny states.

[F430murci]

One shooting per day might be believable. One mass shooting per day sounds like "pure bullshit" indeed.

maybe you should read a bit more. 1 shooting per day = less than 400 people a day. there are 30000 killed by guns a year in th US

So we're going to consider suicide as part of the mass shootings?

you can twist an turn whatever you want. your society is out of control with so many lunatics with a gun. don't forget the killings between little children because their parents don't keep their guns at a save place

And children falling out of trees because parents don't watch them . . . Children dying in hot cars because parents for get about them . . . Children dying because their parents or another driver drove negligently . . . children drowning because of negligent supervision . . .

The number of unintentional killings between children are very low.

I am one of those that is in favor of better gun control laws and have argued that vigorously on here a while back. Beechguy is completely correct. Something like 2/3s of that 30,000 firearm death number are suicides, most of which (13,000) occur in the elderly population. Perhaps many of the 13,000 viewed it better to go out quickly than die from slow, painful diseases and health conditions.

[Scott]

This topic is about mass shootings, further off-topic posts will be removed and posters will receive a warning. It's not about gun manufacturing or guns in other countries.

[lostoday]

USA There have been at least 71 in the last three decades—and most of the killers got their guns legally.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map?page=2

[Thakkar]

There's a lot of deflections and irrelevant digressions in this discussion. If I may, let me attempt to steer back to what I think are the main issues.

Among developed countries, America is probably the easiest place for an ordinary person to buy firearms.

There are more guns per capita in America than any other country, developed or otherwise. War-torn Yemen is a distant second. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/71560664/study-confirms-that-the-us-is-no-1-in-mass-shootings-blames-gun-culture)

There are more gun deaths in America than any other DEVELOPED country: 2.97 per 100k population compared to second placed Switzerland at 0.77. ( Guardian link, but the data is from a UN study : www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list#data)

The discussion, in my view, should centre on whether there is a link between the three above stated FACTS. My contention is that there IS a link, and I strongly suspect that the NRA thinks so as well. That would explain why they long ago successfully lobbied Congress to ban the funding of studies into the matter. (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/12/gun_violence_research_nra_and_congress_blocked_gun_control_studies_at_cdc.html). I think the ban was lifted after the Newton shootings, but a general lack of funds (and, I suspect, behind the scenes machinations) means that the CDC has yet to conduct any large scale studies.

I believe that robust gun control will save thousands of American lives every single year.

T

[Grouse]

Belgium? Permissive? With beer strength may be, but guns?

Also choosing the time window is a notorious statisticians trick to produce the desired result

However the overall result shows the USA as an outlier amongst peers. This the whole point and clearly SOMETHING must be done. In the absense of any other smart ideas, it looks like tough gun laws are the way.

Last night an American pal suggested humour might work to make gun ownership less socially acceptable like smoking. He said there was a cartoon show where noisy bikers were termed "fagots" with amazing results ( it was a comedy show OK)

[lostoday]

There's a lot of deflections and irrelevant digressions in this discussion. If I may, let me attempt to steer back to what I think are the main issues.

Among developed countries, America is probably the easiest place for an ordinary person to buy firearms.

There are more guns per capita in America than any other country, developed or otherwise. War-torn Yemen is a distant second. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/71560664/study-confirms-that-the-us-is-no-1-in-mass-shootings-blames-gun-culture)

There are more gun deaths in America than any other DEVELOPED country: 2.97 per 100k population compared to second placed Switzerland at 0.77. ( Guardian link, but the data is from a UN study : www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list#data)

The discussion, in my view, should centre on whether there is a link between the three above stated FACTS. My contention is that there IS a link, and I strongly suspect that the NRA thinks so as well. That would explain why they long ago successfully lobbied Congress to ban the funding of studies into the matter. (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/12/gun_violence_research_nra_and_congress_blocked_gun_control_studies_at_cdc.html). I think the ban was lifted after the Newton shootings, but a general lack of funds (and, I suspect, behind the scenes machinations) means that the CDC has yet to conduct any large scale studies.

I believe that robust gun control will save thousands of American lives every single year.

T

1. No. American gun laws are by state not the federal government.

2. No. America is not #1 in mass shootings per capita.

3. No. America does not have the most gun deaths per capita.

4. No. Robust gun control will increase gun deaths because only the bad guys will have guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

[Ulysses G.]

If you compare only white populations. The USA has about the same murder rate as Belgium. It is gangs and gang violence that give America such a bad rap and criminals don't care about gun laws.

[Thakkar]

There's a lot of deflections and irrelevant digressions in this discussion. If I may, let me attempt to steer back to what I think are the main issues.

Among developed countries, America is probably the easiest place for an ordinary person to buy firearms.

There are more guns per capita in America than any other country, developed or otherwise. War-torn Yemen is a distant second. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/71560664/study-confirms-that-the-us-is-no-1-in-mass-shootings-blames-gun-culture)

There are more gun deaths in America than any other DEVELOPED country: 2.97 per 100k population compared to second placed Switzerland at 0.77. ( Guardian link, but the data is from a UN study : www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list#data)

The discussion, in my view, should centre on whether there is a link between the three above stated FACTS. My contention is that there IS a link, and I strongly suspect that the NRA thinks so as well. That would explain why they long ago successfully lobbied Congress to ban the funding of studies into the matter. (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/12/gun_violence_research_nra_and_congress_blocked_gun_control_studies_at_cdc.html). I think the ban was lifted after the Newton shootings, but a general lack of funds (and, I suspect, behind the scenes machinations) means that the CDC has yet to conduct any large scale studies.

I believe that robust gun control will save thousands of American lives every single year.

T

1. No. American gun laws are by state not the federal government.

2. No. America is not #1 in mass shootings per capita.

3. No. America does not have the most gun deaths per capita.

4. No. Robust gun control will increase gun deaths because only the bad guys will have guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

We should compare like with like. Whether we're talking gun-related homicides or suicides, every country on your Wikipedia list with a rate higher than the U.S. is not a developed country. Every developed country on that list has a rate lower than the U.S. Substantially lower.

T

[55Jay]

Is population size relative to a comparison?

[lostoday]

There's a lot of deflections and irrelevant digressions in this discussion. If I may, let me attempt to steer back to what I think are the main issues.

Among developed countries, America is probably the easiest place for an ordinary person to buy firearms.

There are more guns per capita in America than any other country, developed or otherwise. War-torn Yemen is a distant second. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/71560664/study-confirms-that-the-us-is-no-1-in-mass-shootings-blames-gun-culture)

There are more gun deaths in America than any other DEVELOPED country: 2.97 per 100k population compared to second placed Switzerland at 0.77. ( Guardian link, but the data is from a UN study : www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list#data)

The discussion, in my view, should centre on whether there is a link between the three above stated FACTS. My contention is that there IS a link, and I strongly suspect that the NRA thinks so as well. That would explain why they long ago successfully lobbied Congress to ban the funding of studies into the matter. (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/12/gun_violence_research_nra_and_congress_blocked_gun_control_studies_at_cdc.html). I think the ban was lifted after the Newton shootings, but a general lack of funds (and, I suspect, behind the scenes machinations) means that the CDC has yet to conduct any large scale studies.

I believe that robust gun control will save thousands of American lives every single year.

T

1. No. American gun laws are by state not the federal government.

2. No. America is not #1 in mass shootings per capita.

3. No. America does not have the most gun deaths per capita.

4. No. Robust gun control will increase gun deaths because only the bad guys will have guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

We should compare like with like. Whether we're talking gun-related homicides or suicides, every country on your Wikipedia list with a rate higher than the U.S. is not a developed country. Every developed country on that list has a rate lower than the U.S. Substantially lower.

T

Name one country that has the same population demographic and history and geographic size as America and then I guess we could compare.

I'm a pretty average USA guy and guns have saved my life and property 6 times that I can think of off hand. How about you? Do many bears of coyotes attack your home or family (dogs included). How many businesses have you owned in a slum neighborhood? How many times has your home been broken into by armed robbers?

345,031 Robberies in USA 2013.

? Robberies in the (your country) 2013

Mass shootings in the (your country)? Mass shootings are not a reason to disarm they are a reason to arm.

Edited September 1, 2015 by lostoday

[Thakkar]

There's a lot of deflections and irrelevant digressions in this discussion. If I may, let me attempt to steer back to what I think are the main issues.

Among developed countries, America is probably the easiest place for an ordinary person to buy firearms.

There are more guns per capita in America than any other country, developed or otherwise. War-torn Yemen is a distant second. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/71560664/study-confirms-that-the-us-is-no-1-in-mass-shootings-blames-gun-culture)

There are more gun deaths in America than any other DEVELOPED country: 2.97 per 100k population compared to second placed Switzerland at 0.77. ( Guardian link, but the data is from a UN study : www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list#data)

The discussion, in my view, should centre on whether there is a link between the three above stated FACTS. My contention is that there IS a link, and I strongly suspect that the NRA thinks so as well. That would explain why they long ago successfully lobbied Congress to ban the funding of studies into the matter. (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/12/gun_violence_research_nra_and_congress_blocked_gun_control_studies_at_cdc.html). I think the ban was lifted after the Newton shootings, but a general lack of funds (and, I suspect, behind the scenes machinations) means that the CDC has yet to conduct any large scale studies.

I believe that robust gun control will save thousands of American lives every single year.

T

1. No. American gun laws are by state not the federal government.

2. No. America is not #1 in mass shootings per capita.

3. No. America does not have the most gun deaths per capita.

4. No. Robust gun control will increase gun deaths because only the bad guys will have guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

We should compare like with like. Whether we're talking gun-related homicides or suicides, every country on your Wikipedia list with a rate higher than the U.S. is not a developed country. Every developed country on that list has a rate lower than the U.S. Substantially lower.

T

Name one country that has the same population demographic and history and geographic size as America and then I guess we could compare.

I'm a pretty average USA guy and guns have saved my life and property 6 times that I can think of off hand. How about you? Do many bears of coyotes attack your home or family (dogs included). How many businesses have you owned in a slum neighborhood? How many times has your home been broken into by armed robbers?

You are now arguing against yourself, because it was you that posted the list for comparison. When I point out that the comparison isn't valid, you say that we can't compare the U.S. with other countries because the U.S. is somehow exceptional.

And if anecdotes were ponies, all our daughters would be actual princesses.

T

[Thakkar]

There's a lot of deflections and irrelevant digressions in this discussion. If I may, let me attempt to steer back to what I think are the main issues.

Among developed countries, America is probably the easiest place for an ordinary person to buy firearms.

There are more guns per capita in America than any other country, developed or otherwise. War-torn Yemen is a distant second. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/71560664/study-confirms-that-the-us-is-no-1-in-mass-shootings-blames-gun-culture)

There are more gun deaths in America than any other DEVELOPED country: 2.97 per 100k population compared to second placed Switzerland at 0.77. ( Guardian link, but the data is from a UN study : www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list#data)

The discussion, in my view, should centre on whether there is a link between the three above stated FACTS. My contention is that there IS a link, and I strongly suspect that the NRA thinks so as well. That would explain why they long ago successfully lobbied Congress to ban the funding of studies into the matter. (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/12/gun_violence_research_nra_and_congress_blocked_gun_control_studies_at_cdc.html). I think the ban was lifted after the Newton shootings, but a general lack of funds (and, I suspect, behind the scenes machinations) means that the CDC has yet to conduct any large scale studies.

I believe that robust gun control will save thousands of American lives every single year.

T

1. No. American gun laws are by state not the federal government.

2. No. America is not #1 in mass shootings per capita.

3. No. America does not have the most gun deaths per capita.

4. No. Robust gun control will increase gun deaths because only the bad guys will have guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Saying that gun laws means only bad guys will have guns is to frame the issue as if law-abiding citizens are in an arms race with the bad guys. That's not a route civilised society ought to be taking. In any case, it's a spurious argument.

Laws affect everyone, even bad guys, otherwise, why have any laws at all? RPGs are illegal. That makes them difficult to buy and expensive even if you can buy one. No law-abiding citizen has one. Very few criminals are likely to have one. Result: few to nil RPG-related incidents. Saying that criminals will break laws is like saying water is wet. The fact that criminals exists is the very reason we have criminal laws.

T

[lostoday]

1. No. American gun laws are by state not the federal government.

2. No. America is not #1 in mass shootings per capita.

3. No. America does not have the most gun deaths per capita.

4. No. Robust gun control will increase gun deaths because only the bad guys will have guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

We should compare like with like. Whether we're talking gun-related homicides or suicides, every country on your Wikipedia list with a rate higher than the U.S. is not a developed country. Every developed country on that list has a rate lower than the U.S. Substantially lower.

T

Name one country that has the same population demographic and history and geographic size as America and then I guess we could compare.

I'm a pretty average USA guy and guns have saved my life and property 6 times that I can think of off hand. How about you? Do many bears of coyotes attack your home or family (dogs included). How many businesses have you owned in a slum neighborhood? How many times has your home been broken into by armed robbers?

You are now arguing against yourself, because it was you that posted the list for comparison. When I point out that the comparison isn't valid, you say that we can't compare the U.S. with other countries because the U.S. is somehow exceptional.

And if anecdotes were ponies, all our daughters would be actual princesses.

T

Taking posts out of order to make a comment is not kosher. (see, you are responding to a post that I did not make in response to a post of yours - trying to trick the Thai Visa readers into thinking you are correct when you are actually wrong) Reversing or changing the order of posts is the same as changing the posts meaning and is not allowed.

You wrote,

"We should compare like with like. Whether we're talking gun-related homicides or suicides, every country on your Wikipedia list with a rate higher than the U.S. is not a developed country. Every developed country on that list has a rate lower than the U.S. Substantially lower.

T"

I wrote,

"Name one country that has the same population demographic and history and geographic size as America and then I guess we could compare.

I'm a pretty average USA guy and guns have saved my life and property 6 times that I can think of off hand. How about you? Do many bears of coyotes attack your home or family (dogs included). How many businesses have you owned in a slum neighborhood? How many times has your home been broken into by armed robbers?"

Now it's your turn.

[Thakkar]

1. No. American gun laws are by state not the federal government.

2. No. America is not #1 in mass shootings per capita.

3. No. America does not have the most gun deaths per capita.

4. No. Robust gun control will increase gun deaths because only the bad guys will have guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

We should compare like with like. Whether we're talking gun-related homicides or suicides, every country on your Wikipedia list with a rate higher than the U.S. is not a developed country. Every developed country on that list has a rate lower than the U.S. Substantially lower.

T

Name one country that has the same population demographic and history and geographic size as America and then I guess we could compare.

I'm a pretty average USA guy and guns have saved my life and property 6 times that I can think of off hand. How about you? Do many bears of coyotes attack your home or family (dogs included). How many businesses have you owned in a slum neighborhood? How many times has your home been broken into by armed robbers?

You are now arguing against yourself, because it was you that posted the list for comparison. When I point out that the comparison isn't valid, you say that we can't compare the U.S. with other countries because the U.S. is somehow exceptional.

And if anecdotes were ponies, all our daughters would be actual princesses.

T

Taking posts out of order to make a comment is not kosher. (see, you are responding to a post that I did not make in response to a post of yours - trying to trick the Thai Visa readers into thinking you are correct when you are actually wrong) Reversing or changing the order of posts is the same as changing the posts meaning and is not allowed.

You wrote,

"We should compare like with like. Whether we're talking gun-related homicides or suicides, every country on your Wikipedia list with a rate higher than the U.S. is not a developed country. Every developed country on that list has a rate lower than the U.S. Substantially lower.

T"

I wrote,

"Name one country that has the same population demographic and history and geographic size as America and then I guess we could compare.

I'm a pretty average USA guy and guns have saved my life and property 6 times that I can think of off hand. How about you? Do many bears of coyotes attack your home or family (dogs included). How many businesses have you owned in a slum neighborhood? How many times has your home been broken into by armed robbers?"

Now it's your turn.

---

Actually, it is you that's taking things out of order.

I said that, among developed countries, per capita incidence of gun violence is the highest.

You responded with a Wikipedia link with a list of countries where, indeed there were countries with a higher rate.

I pointed out that even in your own posted list, America's rate is highest among developed countries, which means you actually prove my point.

Then you came back with accusations and re quoting things you'd already said.

Who's really tiring to muddy the waters here?

T

Edit: changed "requesting" to "re quoting"

Edited September 1, 2015 by Thakkar

[lostoday]

Sorry but you don't know how to use the quote function (or can't). I write and you quote and respond (normal Thai Visa forum procedure). Your style is too confusing for me to follow and I don't want to. Change your posts to be legible and in order listing who wrote what and I'll be happy to respond.

Edited September 1, 2015 by lostoday