Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[Aj Mick]

Transcripts written by whom? Oh ok, the head judge allows himself a recording device. But is it always turned on? Is it always working? Does it work as well as the CCTV cameras on KT? ....or perhaps it works as well as the CCTV cameras around the Erawan statue in Bkk. Also, from a recording, can the listener always tell who's speaking - particularly when two or more people are discussing something?

I shouldn't have so many questions, and instead embrace what the self-appointed PM tells me, "this is a perfect case. Thai detectives study from the same books as British detectives." (the PM actually said that, so it must be true). Or what Chief cop Prayut said at the press conference when he announced Nomsod's DNA didn't match: "We don't need to send Nomsod's DNA to British experts because the British know we're doing a perfect job."

Not transcripts, but notes written by the judges who have been replaced.

The recording devices the judges have are not to record the trial. They are just for the judges to record their own impressions, reminders, and so on about proceedings and evidence, from which they write up their notes, which they then use for making and writing up their judgment.

That is one of the reasons Thai legal proceedings can be so drawn out, with several days or weeks between hearings.

[Trisha61]

We would not need Hercule Poirot to sort stuff out here, even Captain Hastings would have solved it....

[thailandchilli]

Whilst a change of judges is common in long trials in Thailand, this is not a good sign.

It is a tactic when an egregious verdict is ordered from on high. No judge wants to be permanently associated with a blatantly biased verdict, so a judge shuffle at the end of the trial allows the newcomer and the replaced to point the finger at each other and say, "I didn't do it, he did."

Alternatively, a switch may have been ordered to ensure the verdict goes as authority wants it to go. This is much more commonly seen when a new police officer or police department gets to take over a case to ensure the investigation goes as somebody wishes.

Agree its not a good sign at all.

In addition by Thai standards this has not been a particularly long trial. I could understand switching of one or so judge if this went on for a year or more but the trial started in July. I'm disgusted by this latest event. There were reports from Andrew Drummond warning about this and they have indeed come true.

I personally would have thought that seeing as this case is so high profile and attracted so much international media attention then the last thing they would want to do is provide ammunition to Human Rights and the media citing the switching of judges not helping continuity and fairness. But no, it seems this is the last thing on their mind. I fear the worst now. Disgraceful.

[Bung]

I fear this change of judges is somebody high up is telling them to get down there and sort this out as it is not going well for the prosecution.

What other reason could there possibly be to change two of the three judges at this stage?

I hope justice prevails.

[scorecard]

Whilst a change of judges is common in long trials in Thailand, this is not a good sign.

It is a tactic when an egregious verdict is ordered from on high. No judge wants to be permanently associated with a blatantly biased verdict, so a judge shuffle at the end of the trial allows the newcomer and the replaced to point the finger at each other and say, "I didn't do it, he did."

Alternatively, a switch may have been ordered to ensure the verdict goes as authority wants it to go. This is much more commonly seen when a new police officer or police department gets to take over a case to ensure the investigation goes as somebody wishes.

Is this a factual comment or an emotional over-reaction comment?

[StealthEnergiser]

Andy Hall added 6 new photos — with Aung Kyaw Mwrn and 8 others.

29 mins ·

Koh Samui court penultimate day of Koh Tao murder trial will continue late into the night tonight.

The defense team just having a quick break and snack before court session recommences at 730pm with testimony of Wai Phyo, defendant number 2.

Wai Phyo is the final witness of the Koh Tao murder case.

https://www.facebook.com/andy.hall.3110

[Trisha61]

The defence has pulled of some pretty clever moves so far.
I wonder if they have a strategy for what the Burmese two must put out, to put real some real doubt into the minds of the judges?
Or does it even matter?

If facing death or life in prison surely you can come up with something better than..
we got extremely drunk, didnt see anything, went home...

Then i guess the first thing an opposition would ask is
"If you were so drunk you couldnt walk and didnt know what was going on around you, then how did you manage to make it home on a bike? "

Some have suggested they know more than what they are letting on.
But if they facing the death penalty already, why would they be scared of speaking out?

"If you were so drunk you couldnt walk and didnt know what was going on around you, then how did you manage to make it home on a bike? "

Might be interesting if they said "we cannot remember how we got home". If the prosecution say "we know you did because we have it on CCTV", then the court might like to see the CCTV in question.

Of course, that CCTV might then turn out not to have been kept for budget reasons.

Thats a point. And in a place like that there's probably only one main route for them to get home.
I wonder if the defense has ever looked into trying to obtain the CCTV for that route?
If they did, and were denied, they could then ask by whos authority was it denied and why?

One investigator cop said (on the stand at the trial) that he/they looked at over 60 hours of CCTV from that night. What was seen? Did they share some or any footage with defense? Was any of it CCTV which Mon declined to hand over (saying it was his 'private property')? Let's not forget, this is the same RTP which said they didn't even look at CCTV of boats leaving the island (and who might have boarded them?) just after the crime, deeming it unimportant. Re; the unseen beach/dock CCTV, the report used the word 'have' instead of 'had' as in; "we have that footage." Does that mean they still have it, as reported? Or was it just sloppy reporting, and they 'had' the potentially crucial CCTV, but trashed it when realizing it either A. was too unimportant to keep, or B. it implicated people they're sworn/paid to shield from scrutiny?

Exactly. So in the whole 60 hours there is zilch film of the B2 leaving the scene. Total B/S. CCTV of victims entering the AC bar, zilch leaving it. Total B/S.
I give up. This whole set-up is all total B/S. What's even more despicable, it's transparently obvious to anyone with a measurable IQ.

Do they care? I doubt it, they're so far up their backsides to register anything but more B/S.

But 'Someone' made a statement regarding CCTV of the victims leaving the bar earlier in the investigation:-

BRITISH COUPLE BATTERED TO DEATH AT THAILAND FULL MOON PARTY

"The murder weapon is reportedly believed to be a gardening hoe, which was found nearby to the crime scene.
"

Police spokesman Major General Kiattipong Khawsamang said in a statement: "They went out to a bar and left together after 1am (Monday), according to closed circuit TV camera footage."


"This should not have happened in Thailand. It will affect our image in the eyes of international countries."


THAILAND THE EYES OF INTERNATIONAL COUNTRIES ARE MOST DEFINITELY WATCHING!

[catsanddogs]

Whilst a change of judges is common in long trials in Thailand, this is not a good sign.

It is a tactic when an egregious verdict is ordered from on high. No judge wants to be permanently associated with a blatantly biased verdict, so a judge shuffle at the end of the trial allows the newcomer and the replaced to point the finger at each other and say, "I didn't do it, he did."

Alternatively, a switch may have been ordered to ensure the verdict goes as authority wants it to go. This is much more commonly seen when a new police officer or police department gets to take over a case to ensure the investigation goes as somebody wishes.

Agree its not a good sign at all.

In addition by Thai standards this has not been a particularly long trial. I could understand switching of one or so judge if this went on for a year or more but the trial started in July. I'm disgusted by this latest event. There were reports from Andrew Drummond warning about this and they have indeed come true.

I personally would have thought that seeing as this case is so high profile and attracted so much international media attention then the last thing they would want to do is provide ammunition to Human Rights and the media citing the switching of judges not helping continuity and fairness. But no, it seems this is the last thing on their mind. I fear the worst now. Disgraceful.

Completely agree with you. It also shows no respect for Hannah, David and their families. Another smack in the face for them. It's as if no one but the defence has any shred of compassion and resolution.

[sweatalot]

I fear this change of judges is somebody high up is telling them to get down there and sort this out as it is not going well for the prosecution.

What other reason could there possibly be to change two of the three judges at this stage?

I hope justice prevails.

Too much speculation

Why couldn't it be a good sign?

[thailandchilli]

Very good summary from Richard Barrow in an article he did after attending a murder trial and what to expect from the process.

What to Expect if you have to go to a Thai Court

During the cross-examination, I could see the defence lawyer pausing before he asked each question so that the judge could have time to record the answer. However, sometimes the judge didn’t bother to record anything which obviously annoyed the defence. He just told them to ask the next question. http://www.thai-blogs.com/2011/08/07/what-to-expect-if-you-have-to-go-to-a-thai-court/

[berybert]

Whilst a change of judges is common in long trials in Thailand, this is not a good sign.

It is a tactic when an egregious verdict is ordered from on high. No judge wants to be permanently associated with a blatantly biased verdict, so a judge shuffle at the end of the trial allows the newcomer and the replaced to point the finger at each other and say, "I didn't do it, he did."

Alternatively, a switch may have been ordered to ensure the verdict goes as authority wants it to go. This is much more commonly seen when a new police officer or police department gets to take over a case to ensure the investigation goes as somebody wishes.

Agree its not a good sign at all.

In addition by Thai standards this has not been a particularly long trial. I could understand switching of one or so judge if this went on for a year or more but the trial started in July. I'm disgusted by this latest event. There were reports from Andrew Drummond warning about this and they have indeed come true.

I personally would have thought that seeing as this case is so high profile and attracted so much international media attention then the last thing they would want to do is provide ammunition to Human Rights and the media citing the switching of judges not helping continuity and fairness. But no, it seems this is the last thing on their mind. I fear the worst now. Disgraceful.

Completely agree with you. It also shows no respect for Hannah, David and their families. Another smack in the face for them. It's as if no one but the defence has any shred of compassion and resolution.

Do you honestly think the prosecution or RTP have any thoughts about the feelings of the families involved in this whole sorry mess.

They must be wondering why they every allowed the foreign office to put out a statement from them saying they were happy with how the case is going.

They now know there is zero chance of any justice for their loved ones, and even worse knowing those who are supposed to be getting it for them are it fact laughing at them.

[Trisha61]

New Judges, eh? Maybe that's a good sign! I know, I know.... Foolish thinking.

Or, God Forbid, maybe a worrying sign?

[stephenterry]

Good grief. The lead judge is there. No wonder the shills would have a field day with the over reaction. The extra two days was agreed to facilitate the trial being completed asap. And over a weekend. There's nothing sinister about it. Nothing. Just relax and listen to the feedback from the court

[boomerangutang]

Whilst a change of judges is common in long trials in Thailand, this is not a good sign.

It is a tactic when an egregious verdict is ordered from on high. No judge wants to be permanently associated with a blatantly biased verdict, so a judge shuffle at the end of the trial allows the newcomer and the replaced to point the finger at each other and say, "I didn't do it, he did."

Alternatively, a switch may have been ordered to ensure the verdict goes as authority wants it to go. This is much more commonly seen when a new police officer or police department gets to take over a case to ensure the investigation goes as somebody wishes.

Agree its not a good sign at all.

In addition by Thai standards this has not been a particularly long trial. I could understand switching of one or so judge if this went on for a year or more but the trial started in July. I'm disgusted by this latest event. There were reports from Andrew Drummond warning about this and they have indeed come true.

I personally would have thought that seeing as this case is so high profile and attracted so much international media attention then the last thing they would want to do is provide ammunition to Human Rights and the media citing the switching of judges not helping continuity and fairness. But no, it seems this is the last thing on their mind. I fear the worst now. Disgraceful.

They know there will be profound reaction from fair-minded people (if the scapegoats are found guilty), but most of that reaction will be from farang (which is not such a big deal, from Thai officialdon's view). More importantly, with 2/3 new judges, they can just slough off the aghast reactions by acting like they were out of the loop, or not up to snuff, or whatever. In sum, it dilutes the responsibility factor. of whatever verdict comes forth. Another way to slough off aghast reactions is for judges to say, "don't fret. It's not over. We don't have the final word. It will go to appeal." That adds more months to the time lag which is also advantageous to RTP/Prosecution - because it increases the chance that more people will forget about the whole thing. It also adds more time to statue of limitations for the real culprits.

[Trisha61]

Good grief. The lead judge is there. No wonder the shills would have a field day with the over reaction. The extra two days was agreed to facilitate the trial being completed asap. And over a weekend. There's nothing sinister about it. Nothing. Just relax and listen to the feedback from the court

Sorry Stephen, emotions are running high.

[BritTim]

Makes one wonder how they achieve continuity in a trial like this. How do the new judges come up to speed on the past testimony?

They read the previous transcripts. It's common practice but clearly imperfect.

So, the judges' transcripts are written down throughout the trial? Pity they are not available to anyone else except the judges.

[stephenterry]

Makes one wonder how they achieve continuity in a trial like this. How do the new judges come up to speed on the past testimony?

They read the previous transcripts. It's common practice but clearly imperfect.

So, the judges' transcripts are written down throughout the trial? Pity they are not available to anyone else except the judges.

Your point being?

This is how it works here. The judges decide the outcome, no one else. Except of course the bigwig who is going to check the verdict. I understand the defence requested an independent review. A sort of insurance against any influence on the judges to reach a verdict.

[BritTim]

Very good summary from Richard Barrow in an article he did after attending a murder trial and what to expect from the process.

What to Expect if you have to go to a Thai Court

During the cross-examination, I could see the defence lawyer pausing before he asked each question so that the judge could have time to record the answer. However, sometimes the judge didn’t bother to record anything which obviously annoyed the defence. He just told them to ask the next question. http://www.thai-blogs.com/2011/08/07/what-to-expect-if-you-have-to-go-to-a-thai-court/

I found this part of the article extremely interesting:

By about 12 p.m., the court clerk had finished typing up the testimonials from the witnesses. These were then read out in court. Each witness was then asked if what had been read was a true account. They said it was. Then each relevant party had to sign these statements.

Is this procedure being followed in the current trial?

[Trisha61]

Makes one wonder how they achieve continuity in a trial like this. How do the new judges come up to speed on the past testimony?

They read the previous transcripts. It's common practice but clearly imperfect.

So, the judges' transcripts are written down throughout the trial? Pity they are not available to anyone else except the judges.

Your point being?

This is how it works here. The judges decide the outcome, no one else. Except of course the bigwig who is going to check the verdict. I understand the defence requested an independent review. A sort of insurance against any influence on the judges to reach a verdict.

Do you think their request for an Independent Review is likely to be considered, or is this an exceptional request?

[thailandchilli]

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 12m12 minutes ago

Wai Phyo's testimony halted 1030pm at half way, everyone in court tired.Court adjourn until tomorrow morning 9am for final day's testimony.

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 11m11 minutes ago

Wai Phyo's testimony tonight talked court through his childhood, working on Koh Tao with 'police' 500 baht protection card/irregular worker

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 11m11 minutes ago

Wai Phyo just pleaded guilty to immigration offenses entering/residing in Thailand irregularly but maintained innocence on all other charges

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 9m9 minutes ago

Tomorrow's testimony of Wai Phyo will likely focus on his arrest after leaving Koh Tao, alleged torture, confession and reversed confession.

[bamukloy]

This new development with the judges seems to complicate things even further.

So do the previous two judges get to hand in verdicts?

Correct me if wrong, but adding another two heads could be a way of trying to legitimize what will be a tough verdict?

If they all get to pass a verdict, and in the case where the lower 4 judges are stalemated at 2-2, then the head judges decision might make the final ruling?

Of course it might not be the way it works, and it would be the same situation in a group of 3 anyway..but i guess spread the responsibilty a bit wider?

[berybert]

This new development with the judges seems to complicate things even further.

So do the previous two judges get to hand in verdicts?

Correct me if wrong, but adding another two heads could be a way of trying to legitimize what will be a tough verdict?

If they all get to pass a verdict, and in the case where the lower 4 judges are stalemated at 2-2, then the head judges decision might make the final ruling?

Of course it might not be the way it works, and it would be the same situation in a group of 3 anyway..but i guess spread the responsibilty a bit wider?

A tough verdict ?

Have you been paying any attention to the trial ?

[stephenterry]

Makes one wonder how they achieve continuity in a trial like this. How do the new judges come up to speed on the past testimony?

They read the previous transcripts. It's common practice but clearly imperfect.

So, the judges' transcripts are written down throughout the trial? Pity they are not available to anyone else except the judges.

Your point being?

This is how it works here. The judges decide the outcome, no one else. Except of course the bigwig who is going to check the verdict. I understand the defence requested an independent review. A sort of insurance against any influence on the judges to reach a verdict.

Do you think their request for an Independent Review is likely to be considered, or is this an exceptional request?

It's been agreed. This bigwig is in charge of the area and will check the verdict. All pr stuff and highly debatable whether it helps the defence. As the trial is a sham it's necessary to put a favourable spin on the outcome so As to protect Thailand's image as a safe tourist destination.

[phuketandsee]

This new development with the judges seems to complicate things even further.

So do the previous two judges get to hand in verdicts?

Correct me if wrong, but adding another two heads could be a way of trying to legitimize what will be a tough verdict?

If they all get to pass a verdict, and in the case where the lower 4 judges are stalemated at 2-2, then the head judges decision might make the final ruling?

Of course it might not be the way it works, and it would be the same situation in a group of 3 anyway..but i guess spread the responsibilty a bit wider?

A tough verdict ?

Have you been paying any attention to the trial ?

I think he means politically tough verdict

[scorecard]

This new development with the judges seems to complicate things even further.

So do the previous two judges get to hand in verdicts?

Correct me if wrong, but adding another two heads could be a way of trying to legitimize what will be a tough verdict?

If they all get to pass a verdict, and in the case where the lower 4 judges are stalemated at 2-2, then the head judges decision might make the final ruling?

Of course it might not be the way it works, and it would be the same situation in a group of 3 anyway..but i guess spread the responsibilty a bit wider?

Speculation is starting to get silly, none of us really knows why judges have come and gone expect that it seems to happen in many cases.

[sambum]

New Judges, eh? Maybe that's a good sign! I know, I know.... Foolish thinking.

Good or bad I am not sure but I thought the same judges would have to be on the trial from start to finish.

If the Police Chief in charge of the investigation can be replaced/promoted less than a few days into the investigation if things aren't going according to somebody's plan, (Sorry -"conspiracy theory"!) then there is no reason why judges can not be replaced (for the same reasons?) I wonder if they'll be allowed to see notes from the the judges they are replacing? Probably depends on which way the previous 2 judges were "leaning"!

[berybert]

This new development with the judges seems to complicate things even further.

So do the previous two judges get to hand in verdicts?

Correct me if wrong, but adding another two heads could be a way of trying to legitimize what will be a tough verdict?

If they all get to pass a verdict, and in the case where the lower 4 judges are stalemated at 2-2, then the head judges decision might make the final ruling?

Of course it might not be the way it works, and it would be the same situation in a group of 3 anyway..but i guess spread the responsibilty a bit wider?

A tough verdict ?

Have you been paying any attention to the trial ?

I think he means politically tough verdict

As in, do we find them not guilty and lose some face in Thailand but gain a lot of credit world wide. Or find them guilty thus saving face in Thailand whilst losing any respect the rest of the world might have had left for us, tough ?

I guess being as the watching world has little if any respect for the RTP then finding the correct judgement is neither here nor there for them.

[robertthebruce]

Big article on ''Sky News'' this evening and also the ''Daily Mirror''..

both men said, they were tortured and forced to confess..

Glad its getting European coverage,

If they are innocent, i hope them well and safe journey back home..

Poor Guys..

[stephenterry]

This new development with the judges seems to complicate things even further.

So do the previous two judges get to hand in verdicts?

Correct me if wrong, but adding another two heads could be a way of trying to legitimize what will be a tough verdict?

If they all get to pass a verdict, and in the case where the lower 4 judges are stalemated at 2-2, then the head judges decision might make the final ruling?

Of course it might not be the way it works, and it would be the same situation in a group of 3 anyway..but i guess spread the responsibilty a bit wider?

A tough verdict ?

Have you been paying any attention to the trial ?

Patience. Some are not up to speed. While it is quite clear to farang that the b2 are scapegoats unfortunately the authorities do not accept it. So while the verdict should be a slam dunk innocent don't depend on it.

[Trisha61]

Makes one wonder how they achieve continuity in a trial like this. How do the new judges come up to speed on the past testimony?

They read the previous transcripts. It's common practice but clearly imperfect.

So, the judges' transcripts are written down throughout the trial? Pity they are not available to anyone else except the judges.

Your point being?

This is how it works here. The judges decide the outcome, no one else. Except of course the bigwig who is going to check the verdict. I understand the defence requested an independent review. A sort of insurance against any influence on the judges to reach a verdict.

Do you think their request for an Independent Review is likely to be considered, or is this an exceptional request?

It's been agreed. This bigwig is in charge of the area and will check the verdict. All pr stuff and highly debatable whether it helps the defence. As the trial is a sham it's necessary to put a favourable spin on the outcome so As to protect Thailand's image as a safe tourist destination.

Thank you for clarifying that Stephen.