English teaching needs a bottom-up approach: Thai editorial

[AnnieT]

I haven't read all the posts yet but I have seen a lot of blame put on the quality of the Thai teachers.

I would like to put just as much blame on the students themselves.

Some simply don't have the right attitude for learning . They turn up without books, play around with their mobiles, iPads or whatever.

They know they can't fail at university level.

The students that want to speak English well make an effort to learn. They are active in listening outside class. They read, they speak and can learn to speak English well even if the teachers aren't up to scratch.

The whole education system needs a shake up. You can employ the world's best English teachers but if the students' attitudes aren't changed it won't make any difference.

That matches my experience too. They don't have the discipline to study subjects that they have no real interest in.

Attendance is not the same as learning.

Completion is not the same as passing.

But they haven't understood that yet.

People get the governments they deserve, students get the teachers they deserve, and that's exactly what's happened.

Hard to have any sympathy for them really.

Edited September 16, 2015 by AnnieT

[lostoday]

Your English is difficult for me to understand. It reads like you are using an on line translator from another language. Knowing what is a pronoun, verb, nouns, simple sentences may be admirable skills but if you can't communicate a thought, hardly valuable.

Take #7 for example. "7. To do something in the immediate future, need to have a very good system of videos and interaction internet system that takes care of the needs of the students in a meaningful way. Not videos on learning

English, but on interactive classes on using pronouns, verbs, nouns simple sentences, etc., with adequate followup."

I have no idea what you are trying to communicate. Have someone who speaks English translate it for you.

Off-topic

I don't know. Maybe the poster was trying to communicate something about teaching from the bottom up but I could not understand his use of the English language.

For example, "Not videos on learning

English, but on interactive classes on using pronouns, verbs, nouns simple sentences, etc., with adequate followup."

What does the above mean?

Maybe it's code for "Did I ask you? Sit down raise your hand and wait till you are called on."

Maybe under the facade he's just a jerk with a courtesy deficit. Oh, sorry, it wasn't him who said that.

So you don't know what he mean either. I figured as much.

[lostoday]

I haven't read all the posts yet but I have seen a lot of blame put on the quality of the Thai teachers.

I would like to put just as much blame on the students themselves.

Some simply don't have the right attitude for learning . They turn up without books, play around with their mobiles, iPads or whatever.

They know they can't fail at university level.

The students that want to speak English well make an effort to learn. They are active in listening outside class. They read, they speak and can learn to speak English well even if the teachers aren't up to scratch.

The whole education system needs a shake up. You can employ the world's best English teachers but if the students' attitudes aren't changed it won't make any difference.

That matches my experience too. They don't have the discipline to study subjects that they have no real interest in.

Attendance is not the same as learning.

Completion is not the same as passing.

But they haven't understood that yet.

People get the governments they deserve, students get the teachers they deserve, and that's exactly what's happened.

Hard to have any sympathy for them really.

If the teacher teaches 1+1 =3 the students are not going to be very good at arithmetic. If a teacher can't pronounce English words her students will not be able to pronounce English words. This is not "dis." Italian is not, "I tal ian" Espresso is not "Expresso."

[AnnieT]

Listening first. Learning second. This may sound cynical, but Thais have poor listening skills.

Thais as a group have nothing in common except perhaps black hair. Some Thais have poor listening skills would be the correct way of phrasing your statement.

Thais have national traits, same as Germans or French or British or Australians. Or Americans. Traits come from the over-arching national culture..

Thais don't listen well seems like a reasonable statement, though there will always be some who think it shouldn't be right, or perhaps they think it's racist. Such is the burden of political correctness, it just gets in the way of understanding.

Thais are relatively unintelligent, that's the verdict of many national tests over the years but it's politically incorrect so people say it's not true instead of saying they don't like it. In general the only statistics which are not true and reliable are statistics done sloppily - can't argue with real numbers.

Edited September 16, 2015 by AnnieT

[AnnieT]

I haven't read all the posts yet but I have seen a lot of blame put on the quality of the Thai teachers.

I would like to put just as much blame on the students themselves.

Some simply don't have the right attitude for learning . They turn up without books, play around with their mobiles, iPads or whatever.

They know they can't fail at university level.

The students that want to speak English well make an effort to learn. They are active in listening outside class. They read, they speak and can learn to speak English well even if the teachers aren't up to scratch.

The whole education system needs a shake up. You can employ the world's best English teachers but if the students' attitudes aren't changed it won't make any difference.

That matches my experience too. They don't have the discipline to study subjects that they have no real interest in.

Attendance is not the same as learning.

Completion is not the same as passing.

But they haven't understood that yet.

People get the governments they deserve, students get the teachers they deserve, and that's exactly what's happened.

Hard to have any sympathy for them really.

If the teacher teaches 1+1 =3 the students are not going to be very good at arithmetic. If a teacher can't pronounce English words her students will not be able to pronounce English words. This is not "dis." Italian is not, "I tal ian" Espresso is not "Expresso."

In general and in the long run, students get the teachers they deserve.

[carlyai]

Although successive governments may have got English language learning policies wrong, it is a very difficult subject.

If it was easy, it would have been fixed already.

So you're looking at a very difficult subject, and many of the comments on this topic are correct, but taking an overall intergrated approach would not just be hard for Thailand to implement, but the majority of countries in the world would struggle to implement successful English language teaching programs, or successful (any language) language teaching programs.

International schools that I have worked for in Thailand do a good job of teaching English, and students acquiring English language and skills.

When I worked in Indonesia, and China (admittedly in universitys and international schools), they also did a good job of teaching English language and skills.

Working in remote Indigenous schools in Australia for many years, did not produce great English laguage speaking students, although we had excellent resources and teaching material.

The thing that I have found, or what is the difference between students acquiring the English language or not, is 'immersion'.

You have to have a learning program that has students listening, speaking, reading and writing English for hours a day, every day, if they want to be able to communicate in English.

It also seems to me that cultures of 'hunters and gatherers', and 'farming' seems to be less likely to be able to acquire the language, probably because they can not be immersed in the language, as they have other obligations regarding their hunting and farming.

As i said at the start, it is a very difficult problem; how do you immerse students in English language so that they can acquire the language?

In the rural areas of Thailand, how do you keep students in class to immerse them in the English language when they have other chores to do?

If you do get student's 'bumbs on seats', how do you keep them motivated to be immersed in learning a very difficult language?

All very difficult.

[lostoday]

Listening first. Learning second. This may sound cynical, but Thais have poor listening skills.

Thais as a group have nothing in common except perhaps black hair. Some Thais have poor listening skills would be the correct way of phrasing your statement.

Thais have national traits, same as Germans or French or British or Australians. Or Americans. Traits come from the over-arching national culture..

Thais don't listen well seems like a reasonable statement, though there will always be some who think it shouldn't be right, or perhaps they think it's racist. Such is the burden of political correctness, it just gets in the way of understanding.

Thais are relatively unintelligent, that's the verdict of many national tests over the years but it's politically incorrect so people say it's not true instead of saying they don't like it. In general the only statistics which are not true and reliable are statistics done sloppily - can't argue with real numbers.

There are no national traits. The entire approach is now considered defunct. As much as you may want to revisit a world populated by people who believed national traits existed for most educated people it died after Germany lost the war.

[lostoday]

I haven't read all the posts yet but I have seen a lot of blame put on the quality of the Thai teachers.

I would like to put just as much blame on the students themselves.

Some simply don't have the right attitude for learning . They turn up without books, play around with their mobiles, iPads or whatever.

They know they can't fail at university level.

The students that want to speak English well make an effort to learn. They are active in listening outside class. They read, they speak and can learn to speak English well even if the teachers aren't up to scratch.

The whole education system needs a shake up. You can employ the world's best English teachers but if the students' attitudes aren't changed it won't make any difference.

That matches my experience too. They don't have the discipline to study subjects that they have no real interest in.

Attendance is not the same as learning.

Completion is not the same as passing.

But they haven't understood that yet.

People get the governments they deserve, students get the teachers they deserve, and that's exactly what's happened.

Hard to have any sympathy for them really.

If the teacher teaches 1+1 =3 the students are not going to be very good at arithmetic. If a teacher can't pronounce English words her students will not be able to pronounce English words. This is not "dis." Italian is not, "I tal ian" Espresso is not "Expresso."

In general and in the long run, students get the teachers they deserve.

Does every victim of every crime get the criminal she or he deserves? Your statement is so wrong on so many levels. A 3 year old child in Anuban does not deserve a bad teacher. I think you are pretty messed up in your thoughts but I would be the first one to say your children deserve a better education than you so they may have a chance at a better life.

[Soutpeel]

Listening first. Learning second. This may sound cynical, but Thais have poor listening skills.

Thais as a group have nothing in common except perhaps black hair. Some Thais have poor listening skills would be the correct way of phrasing your statement.

Thais have national traits, same as Germans or French or British or Australians. Or Americans. Traits come from the over-arching national culture..

Thais don't listen well seems like a reasonable statement, though there will always be some who think it shouldn't be right, or perhaps they think it's racist. Such is the burden of political correctness, it just gets in the way of understanding.

Thais are relatively unintelligent, that's the verdict of many national tests over the years but it's politically incorrect so people say it's not true instead of saying they don't like it. In general the only statistics which are not true and reliable are statistics done sloppily - can't argue with real numbers.

There are no national traits. The entire approach is now considered defunct. As much as you may want to revisit a world populated by people who believed national traits existed for most educated people it died after Germany lost the war.

Wonder if "AnnieT" "teaches" English in Thailand ?

[lostoday]

Although successive governments may have got English language learning policies wrong, it is a very difficult subject.

If it was easy, it would have been fixed already.

So you're looking at a very difficult subject, and many of the comments on this topic are correct, but taking an overall intergrated approach would not just be hard for Thailand to implement, but the majority of countries in the world would struggle to implement successful English language teaching programs, or successful (any language) language teaching programs.

International schools that I have worked for in Thailand do a good job of teaching English, and students acquiring English language and skills.

When I worked in Indonesia, and China (admittedly in universitys and international schools), they also did a good job of teaching English language and skills.

Working in remote Indigenous schools in Australia for many years, did not produce great English laguage speaking students, although we had excellent resources and teaching material.

The thing that I have found, or what is the difference between students acquiring the English language or not, is 'immersion'.

You have to have a learning program that has students listening, speaking, reading and writing English for hours a day, every day, if they want to be able to communicate in English.

It also seems to me that cultures of 'hunters and gatherers', and 'farming' seems to be less likely to be able to acquire the language, probably because they can not be immersed in the language, as they have other obligations regarding their hunting and farming.

As i said at the start, it is a very difficult problem; how do you immerse students in English language so that they can acquire the language?

In the rural areas of Thailand, how do you keep students in class to immerse them in the English language when they have other chores to do?

If you do get student's 'bumbs on seats', how do you keep them motivated to be immersed in learning a very difficult language?

All very difficult.

1. Movies, entertainment, songs, and sports. Convert student activities in movies, entertainment, songs, and sports to English. 2. Start small and begin instruction of certain courses in English. A few more each year till the majority of technical subjects are taught in English.

If they have a question now they will have to go to an English text to get the answer anyway.

Edited September 16, 2015 by lostoday

[lostoday]

Thais have national traits, same as Germans or French or British or Australians. Or Americans. Traits come from the over-arching national culture..

Thais don't listen well seems like a reasonable statement, though there will always be some who think it shouldn't be right, or perhaps they think it's racist. Such is the burden of political correctness, it just gets in the way of understanding.

Thais are relatively unintelligent, that's the verdict of many national tests over the years but it's politically incorrect so people say it's not true instead of saying they don't like it. In general the only statistics which are not true and reliable are statistics done sloppily - can't argue with real numbers.

There are no national traits. The entire approach is now considered defunct. As much as you may want to revisit a world populated by people who believed national traits existed for most educated people it died after Germany lost the war.

Wonder if "AnnieT" "teaches" English in Thailand ?

Interesting question. I don't see how. By her writing I would imagine she lives in Germany.

Edited September 16, 2015 by lostoday

[Thai at Heart]

Huh? The kids are going to tell them how to teach English? Bottom up approach?

Hardly, it needs a competent top down plan. Where to find a competent education minister?

[Thai at Heart]

I haven't read all the posts yet but I have seen a lot of blame put on the quality of the Thai teachers.

I would like to put just as much blame on the students themselves.

Some simply don't have the right attitude for learning . They turn up without books, play around with their mobiles, iPads or whatever.

They know they can't fail at university level.

The students that want to speak English well make an effort to learn. They are active in listening outside class. They read, they speak and can learn to speak English well even if the teachers aren't up to scratch.

The whole education system needs a shake up. You can employ the world's best English teachers but if the students' attitudes aren't changed it won't make any difference.

I think u might find that teachers set the atmosphere for the class. If they let students do that, then that is the teachers fault.

[lostoday]

Huh? The kids are going to tell them how to teach English? Bottom up approach?

Hardly, it needs a competent top down plan. Where to find a competent education minister?

OP, "True to form, the current incumbent, Dapong Ratanasuwan, has sought help from the University of Cambridge in England to design a programme to improve our students' English communication skills. The ministry also wants to develop a standard test in English proficiency for the students."

Instead the OP proposes, " boosting the level of English proficiency in rural areas, where students have less access to the language through the Internet, music, movies and videos. English learning must extend beyond the classroom into the daily lives of all children. .....there is plenty of teaching material on offer from international organisations such as the British Council. .....in this digital and more democratic era, the impetus for improving English education begins with students and teachers. The authorities can aid this effort by funnelling more of the education budget into improving Internet access for students and teachers.

[lostoday]

I haven't read all the posts yet but I have seen a lot of blame put on the quality of the Thai teachers.

I would like to put just as much blame on the students themselves.

Some simply don't have the right attitude for learning . They turn up without books, play around with their mobiles, iPads or whatever.

They know they can't fail at university level.

The students that want to speak English well make an effort to learn. They are active in listening outside class. They read, they speak and can learn to speak English well even if the teachers aren't up to scratch.

The whole education system needs a shake up. You can employ the world's best English teachers but if the students' attitudes aren't changed it won't make any difference.

I think u might find that teachers set the atmosphere for the class. If they let students do that, then that is the teachers fault.

I agree. In my experience the students who want to learn pay private teachers after class to teach them English. The private expensive school students more than the poor public school students because mom and pop have more cash.

[gandalf12]

Whilst the system of passing irrespective of knowledge continues why would the students have an interest in learning? The system of passing or failing is required, only then will they work so they dont fail and lose face. But it must be implemented strictly on the basis of not sufficient knowledge then you fail.

[Thai at Heart]

I haven't read all the posts yet but I have seen a lot of blame put on the quality of the Thai teachers.

I would like to put just as much blame on the students themselves.

Some simply don't have the right attitude for learning . They turn up without books, play around with their mobiles, iPads or whatever.

They know they can't fail at university level.

The students that want to speak English well make an effort to learn. They are active in listening outside class. They read, they speak and can learn to speak English well even if the teachers aren't up to scratch.

The whole education system needs a shake up. You can employ the world's best English teachers but if the students' attitudes aren't changed it won't make any difference.

I think u might find that teachers set the atmosphere for the class. If they let students do that, then that is the teachers fault.

I agree. In my experience the students who want to learn pay private teachers after class to teach them English. The private expensive school students more than the poor public school students because mom and pop have more cash.

I managed to learn one A level language to a good grade and 3 at gcse.

No extra lessons.

My kids are completely bilingual, admittedly bilingual school in Thailand but, no one the UK can see their English is in and way different from native.

Firstly, everyone has to get past this idea that you need to be remarkably intelligent to learn a language. Swiss kids manage 4.

One hour a day, English corners in school, speaking at a young age I. E. 4 or 5 years of age and a couple of basic books to read and it would improve immeasurably. Speak it well first then add the grammar for writing.

This how all kids learn languages. Not with tons of grammar upfront and no speaking.

Thais have some phobia about languages and learning Thai is complicated enough, but really, Thailand efforts at English are truly pitiful.

Also, ban Thai language dubbing for Western cartoon and movies. Subtitles and English language is a massive benefit for kids.

[Soutpeel]

Thais have national traits, same as Germans or French or British or Australians. Or Americans. Traits come from the over-arching national culture..

Thais don't listen well seems like a reasonable statement, though there will always be some who think it shouldn't be right, or perhaps they think it's racist. Such is the burden of political correctness, it just gets in the way of understanding.

Thais are relatively unintelligent, that's the verdict of many national tests over the years but it's politically incorrect so people say it's not true instead of saying they don't like it. In general the only statistics which are not true and reliable are statistics done sloppily - can't argue with real numbers.

There are no national traits. The entire approach is now considered defunct. As much as you may want to revisit a world populated by people who believed national traits existed for most educated people it died after Germany lost the war.

Wonder if "AnnieT" "teaches" English in Thailand ?

Interesting question. I don't see how. By her writing I would imagine she lives in Germany.

It hasnt stopped others "teaching "Anglo in Thailand has it ?

[AnnieT]

Thais as a group have nothing in common except perhaps black hair. Some Thais have poor listening skills would be the correct way of phrasing your statement.

Thais have national traits, same as Germans or French or British or Australians. Or Americans. Traits come from the over-arching national culture..

Thais don't listen well seems like a reasonable statement, though there will always be some who think it shouldn't be right, or perhaps they think it's racist. Such is the burden of political correctness, it just gets in the way of understanding.

Thais are relatively unintelligent, that's the verdict of many national tests over the years but it's politically incorrect so people say it's not true instead of saying they don't like it. In general the only statistics which are not true and reliable are statistics done sloppily - can't argue with real numbers.

There are no national traits. The entire approach is now considered defunct. As much as you may want to revisit a world populated by people who believed national traits existed for most educated people it died after Germany lost the war.

Wonder if "AnnieT" "teaches" English in Thailand ?

Already answered, but it did call for critical thinking so perhaps you missed it.

[AnnieT]

His point is to start measuring.

Did I ask you? Sit down raise your hand and wait till you are called on.

Ah. Another graduate of the Thai education system. It always shows. Presumably you would quite like to do some measuring as well?

You answer a question that I did not ask you with an answer that makes no sense and now a comment about my education which makes no sense and another statement about measuring that makes no sense. Make a statement or answer a question sensibly and I'll be more than happy to comment.

So. You didn't understand very much at all then... As I said, it always shows.

[Soutpeel]

Thais as a group have nothing in common except perhaps black hair. Some Thais have poor listening skills would be the correct way of phrasing your statement.

Thais have national traits, same as Germans or French or British or Australians. Or Americans. Traits come from the over-arching national culture..

Thais don't listen well seems like a reasonable statement, though there will always be some who think it shouldn't be right, or perhaps they think it's racist. Such is the burden of political correctness, it just gets in the way of understanding.

Thais are relatively unintelligent, that's the verdict of many national tests over the years but it's politically incorrect so people say it's not true instead of saying they don't like it. In general the only statistics which are not true and reliable are statistics done sloppily - can't argue with real numbers.

There are no national traits. The entire approach is now considered defunct. As much as you may want to revisit a world populated by people who believed national traits existed for most educated people it died after Germany lost the war.

Wonder if "AnnieT" "teaches" English in Thailand ?

Already answered, but it did call for critical thinking so perhaps you missed it.

Maybe i did so refresh my memory ?

[AnnieT]

I've been living and working in Thailand for over 20 years now and I've got to know a lot of teachers here in that time and 99.5 are absolute nut cases I mean I wouldn't let them near my kids let alone teach them !!!! The other .5 are solid people can see in their eyes and hear in their voice plus the way they conduct them selves they know how to teach and love doing so.

Just my opinion I've been known to be wrong sometimes just ask my wife.

I've been living in Thailand for 20 years and 99.5% of the expats I've known here dropped out of high school.

I suppose that ought to be surprising. Sadly, not so very.

[AnnieT]

Listening first. Learning second. This may sound cynical, but Thais have poor listening skills.

Thais as a group have nothing in common except perhaps black hair. Some Thais have poor listening skills would be the correct way of phrasing your statement.

Thais have national traits, same as Germans or French or British or Australians. Or Americans. Traits come from the over-arching national culture..

Thais don't listen well seems like a reasonable statement, though there will always be some who think it shouldn't be right, or perhaps they think it's racist. Such is the burden of political correctness, it just gets in the way of understanding.

Thais are relatively unintelligent, that's the verdict of many national tests over the years but it's politically incorrect so people say it's not true instead of saying they don't like it. In general the only statistics which are not true and reliable are statistics done sloppily - can't argue with real numbers.

There are no national traits. The entire approach is now considered defunct. As much as you may want to revisit a world populated by people who believed national traits existed for most educated people it died after Germany lost the war.

Ah. As I said, not politically correct so it ain't so, whereas the normal intelligence would ask "really? what are they?"

[Soutpeel]

I've been living and working in Thailand for over 20 years now and I've got to know a lot of teachers here in that time and 99.5 are absolute nut cases I mean I wouldn't let them near my kids let alone teach them !!!! The other .5 are solid people can see in their eyes and hear in their voice plus the way they conduct them selves they know how to teach and love doing so.

Just my opinion I've been known to be wrong sometimes just ask my wife.

I've been living in Thailand for 20 years and 99.5% of the expats I've known here dropped out of high school.

I suppose that ought to be surprising. Sadly, not so very.

He just needs to get out more thats all widen his horizons a bit,

i have been here here 15 years and 99% of the expats i know have a degree....

[Tomtomtom69]

The lack of English skills came home to me when I was in Bang Krathum hospital, Phitsanulok province, after a car accident. Even the doctor had trouble communicating in English! The records clerk spoke better English.

So then you thought, I know, I'll speak to him in Thai, afterall we are in Thailand.

Despite the fact that many doctors in Thailand can speak English (maybe because much of what they learn in medical school is only in English - i.e. virtually every medical term has no Thai equivalent) in the event of an emergency, I too would rather make sure that the doctor can understand me by speaking his/her native language than assuming or expecting him/her to speak mine.

[Thai at Heart]

National traits and an overarching culture? Utter nonsense.

[petedk]

I haven't read all the posts yet but I have seen a lot of blame put on the quality of the Thai teachers.

I would like to put just as much blame on the students themselves.

Some simply don't have the right attitude for learning . They turn up without books, play around with their mobiles, iPads or whatever.

They know they can't fail at university level.

The students that want to speak English well make an effort to learn. They are active in listening outside class. They read, they speak and can learn to speak English well even if the teachers aren't up to scratch.

The whole education system needs a shake up. You can employ the world's best English teachers but if the students' attitudes aren't changed it won't make any difference.

That matches my experience too. They don't have the discipline to study subjects that they have no real interest in.

Attendance is not the same as learning.

Completion is not the same as passing.

But they haven't understood that yet.

People get the governments they deserve, students get the teachers they deserve, and that's exactly what's happened.

Hard to have any sympathy for them really.

If the teacher teaches 1+1 =3 the students are not going to be very good at arithmetic. If a teacher can't pronounce English words her students will not be able to pronounce English words. This is not "dis." Italian is not, "I tal ian" Espresso is not "Expresso."

I disagree with you.

Most students are taught listening and a lot of the listening is taken from English text books. The scripts are read by native speakers (depending on the level) so they should have opportunity to learn the correct pronunciation.

I met a factory girl sometime last year and her English was excellent. Good grammar and very good pronunciation. I asked her if she had an English boyfriend, to which she replied "no.".

Studied in England? ... No

English father? No.

So I asked how she learnt English. She replied by listening to songs, watching clips on youtube and reading books. She showed me her notes and there were so many words that she had looked up the dictionary.

My English majors hardly ever use dictionaries. Most of what they write is copied and pasted from the Internet. Some of them are very reluctant to even speak English.

The ones that want to learn can and do use Internet and other methods.

Someone wrote that it isn't the attitude of the students that needs to be changed but the attitude of the "no fail" system. That is true.

[AnnieT]

National traits and an overarching culture? Utter nonsense.

And doubtless you speak from the position of being an appropriate authority. Not. See my comment about political correctness and intelligence.

[Thai at Heart]

National traits and an overarching culture? Utter nonsense.

And doubtless you speak from the position of being an appropriate authority. Not. See my comment about political correctness and intelligence.

This has zero bearing on anyone's ability to learn a language.

If they were told 1 year in prison or get a B at English, 95% would fly through.

Attitude is not culture. Motivation is not culture.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Thai at Heart

[Soutpeel]

I blame the native English teachers for Thailands lack of progress, too much emphasis on grammar and rules, too little on actually using the language in real life

i was bored s**tless with English grammar when i was in school, so can well understand Thai students not being interested