HSBC and UK HMRC - HSBC Safeguard.

[menzies233]

Anyone here had some strange calls from HSBC UK?

I have banked with them for more than 20 years - I use my parents address in the UK as my residents address - My tax code (as advised by the UK Tax office) has remained as a UK resident but on a zero tax code for the past 12 years. (I worked for a UK company somewhat against China employment laws on a rolling 12 month business visa for over 7 years - I had a 12 month multiple entry China Visa with no limit of stay and was never questioned about this in all the time I was out there)

Now, out of the blue comes a phone call from HSBC Safeguard asking loads of very personal info - NI Number, Gross / Net earnings, places of residence how long in each residence per year and more....

I live in Thailand but work periodically in China on a legitimate China Residence / Work Permit and paying China taxes.

The HSBC initially wanted me to supply them with proof of residence in Thailand and have this verified and certified by some list of cronies that are promoted by the UK Govt. (Smells like Inland Revenue and not Teen Spirit) However after going back to them and quoting their own website, it appears they will accept my local bank managers verification of address using my Thai driving license.

There isn't much in the way of options, it appears that if I do not conform my bank account in the UK will be cancelled, so I lose my credit and debit cards -( I don't use them often but they are handy) On the other hand, this will give the HSBC and HMRC Inland revenue access to my Thai address etc.

Anyone been through this invasion of privacy?

I am a little worried that they might go hand in hand and link my current address with my old address and with one of my previous China addresses where the Hong Kong Government decided I was liable for over 60K HK$ Taxes, despite me never working in HK, it was a complete ass up by my previous employer who has now gone out of business.

Do you think they are capable of linking up this stuff after about 10 or more years? Just seems sort of creepy that HSBC are asking for all of this stuff, and then hiding behind some sort of front that it is because of the UK Government, perish the thought that we will ever be forced to pay double taxation like the daft Americans!

[Soutpeel]

This is not HMRC this is HSBC covering their <deleted> thats all, your using a UK address and claiming "residence" in Thailand, thats why they are querying all this

And why would one be paying double taxes if their are reciprocal tax agreements in place ? Even the Americans dont pay double taxes

Edited September 18, 2015 by Soutpeel

[CharlieH]

MOVED to Banking

[SheungWan]

More than meets the eye here about HK taxes.

[chiang mai]

Yes, I've been through a one and a half hour drains up interview with a very nice chap from HSBC Safeguard, London, following which I had to send him certified copies of this and that, for which HSBC refunded the cost promptly.

I was skeptical at the outset and initially couldn't decide how much I wanted to tell him, I finally reasoned that I have nothing to hide so I told him everything - I got a big gold star and my banking life has returned to normal. The object of the exercise is to de risk their client relationships in light of legal action against them in the US. FWIW I am non-UK resident for tax purposes.

Note: the above is not a UK government or HM Tax initiative, just google safeguard etc.

EDIT for HK tax: yes, there is linkage between UK and HK tax authorities, like the OP I worked in HK for many years, about fifteen years ago and am in awe of the extent of the HK authorities very impressive reach and intelligence system!

Edited September 18, 2015 by chiang mai

[KittenKong]

HMRC know my address in Thailand. Why not? I have nothing to hide.

On the contrary, telling them my address here allows me to have all my UK bank interest paid gross and UK tax free, and all my UK dividends paid without any tax liability also.

All to my advantage, it seems.

[menzies233]

This is not HMRC this is HSBC covering their <deleted> thats all, your using a UK address and claiming "residence" in Thailand, thats why they are querying all this

And why would one be paying double taxes if their are reciprocal tax agreements in place ? Even the Americans dont pay double taxes

I think if you look more closely the Americans pay tax in both countries, I might be wrong, I hope I am as it is disgusting.!

As far as I am concerned, I have nothing to do with the UK, and they have nothing to do with me, I opted out, I disagree with what the entire country is about, it is a failed rotten state these days. Can you really begin to imagine people marching on the streets in support of scrounging foreigners that actually despise everything we once stood for, pulling our values into the dirt and actually being supported by our own people. Sorry but it disgusts me. The UK and Europe is like a home for sick rabid animals that will destroy the hand that feeds.

I have some views on Thailand and its leaders that many will disagree with, but I will tell you one thing, the Thais will never ever be over by foreigners, they will never allow their nation to be destroyed by an influx of vermin! And just as an example, the European Media using that photo of the dead kid lying in the sand was disgusting. His parents killed him, they were so intent on getting a free ride they killed their own kid, despicable filth!

Can you imagine the DOG British Hating BEAST Jeremy Corbyn being the PM? Supports terrorists, the IRA, Jesus, the UK is rotten, Europe is rotten. God help the West!

Edited September 18, 2015 by menzies233

[menzies233]

HMRC know my address in Thailand. Why not? I have nothing to hide.

On the contrary, telling them my address here allows me to have all my UK bank interest paid gross and UK tax free, and all my UK dividends paid without any tax liability also.

All to my advantage, it seems.

I think you are incorrect, I think you will be expected to pay about 40% of interest earned in the UK on any savings, please prove me wrong! Thanks.

[Soutpeel]

This is not HMRC this is HSBC covering their <deleted> thats all, your using a UK address and claiming "residence" in Thailand, thats why they are querying all this

And why would one be paying double taxes if their are reciprocal tax agreements in place ? Even the Americans dont pay double taxes

I think if you look more closely the Americans pay tax in both countries, I might be wrong, I hope I am as it is disgusting.!

No they dont, they have to submit tax returns where ever they are, but if they were paying tax in Thailand they wouldnt be paying tax on the same money in the US as there are reciprocal tax agreements in place to avoid this

The UK doesnt require the sumission a tax return for all its subjects if they have no presence in the UK are non resident ......i am sure the f*kcers have thought about though LOL

[chiang mai]

So this is not about Safeguard then, OK, cool!

[Soutpeel]

This is not HMRC this is HSBC covering their <deleted> thats all, your using a UK address and claiming "residence" in Thailand, thats why they are querying all this

And why would one be paying double taxes if their are reciprocal tax agreements in place ? Even the Americans dont pay double taxes

I think if you look more closely the Americans pay tax in both countries, I might be wrong, I hope I am as it is disgusting.!

As far as I am concerned, I have nothing to do with the UK, and they have nothing to do with me, I opted out, I disagree with what the entire country is about, it is a failed rotten state these days. Can you really begin to imagine people marching on the streets in support of scrounging foreigners that actually despise everything we once stood for, pulling our values into the dirt and actually being supported by our own people. Sorry but it disgusts me. The UK and Europe is like a home for sick rabid animals that will destroy the hand that feeds.

I have some views on Thailand and its leaders that many will disagree with, but I will tell you one thing, the Thais will never ever be over by foreigners, they will never allow their nation to be destroyed by an influx of vermin! And just as an example, the European Media using that photo of the dead kid lying in the sand was disgusting. His parents killed him, they were so intent on getting a free ride they killed their own kid, despicable filth!

Can you imagine the DOG British Hating BEAST Jeremy Corbyn being the PM? Supports terrorists, the IRA, Jesus, the UK is rotten, Europe is rotten. God help the West!

Yes you do have something to do with the UK your using a UK address and a UK based bank, you havent opted out, in their eyes you have a presence in the UK....i am non resident the UK and have absolutely no presence, no bank account, no property, no address...the only thing i get off the British gov is my passport, and if they started something like the US does, the can have the PP back, i am a dual national so i have anothet pp and nationality i can use LOL

[mesquite]

This is not HMRC this is HSBC covering their <deleted> thats all, your using a UK address and claiming "residence" in Thailand, thats why they are querying all this

And why would one be paying double taxes if their are reciprocal tax agreements in place ? Even the Americans dont pay double taxes

I think if you look more closely the Americans pay tax in both countries, I might be wrong, I hope I am as it is disgusting.!

No they dont, they have to submit tax returns where ever they are, but if they were paying tax in Thailand they wouldnt be paying tax on the same money in the US as there are reciprocal tax agreements in place to avoid this

The UK doesnt require the sumission a tax return for all its subjects if they have no presence in the UK are non resident ......i am sure the f*kcers have thought about though LOL

I'm a US citizen living in Thailand and pay US tax on my US income. I also have tax withheld by the Thai government on my Bangkok Bank interest, but then I get a tax credit for that amount on my US tax return. So the amount of tax is no higher than if I lived in the US and had no bank accounts outside the US. I only file a US tax return. No double taxation.

[menzies233]

This is not HMRC this is HSBC covering their <deleted> thats all, your using a UK address and claiming "residence" in Thailand, thats why they are querying all this

And why would one be paying double taxes if their are reciprocal tax agreements in place ? Even the Americans dont pay double taxes

I think if you look more closely the Americans pay tax in both countries, I might be wrong, I hope I am as it is disgusting.!

No they dont, they have to submit tax returns where ever they are, but if they were paying tax in Thailand they wouldnt be paying tax on the same money in the US as there are reciprocal tax agreements in place to avoid this

The UK doesnt require the sumission a tax return for all its subjects if they have no presence in the UK are non resident ......i am sure the f*kcers have thought about though LOL

OK, thanks for the info, I assumed that a lot of Americans were paying tax here to the US and on income they had in the US, seemed very unfair. There was even a documentary about US citizens giving back their passports and relinquishing citizenship.....you ever hear about that? Due to double taxation in Europe?

[aberman1970]

Why don't you just register your Thai address for your UK HSBC account?

Makes life a lot easier, you still have your debit/credit cards but they send them directly to you out here instead of having to rely on someone else to forward them on.

[menzies233]

Why don't you just register your Thai address for your UK HSBC account?

Makes life a lot easier, you still have your debit/credit cards but they send them directly to you out here instead of having to rely on someone else to forward them on.

The reason I did not register the Thai address was that I was under the impression I would be classed as non resident so lose my credit card and debit card and Uk bank account. I know an idiot from the UK that declared everything to the UK HMRC IR and Bank that he was now resident in Thailand and within 3 months he no longer had a UK account, credit / Debit and bank account cancelled!

[menzies233]

At the end of the day, these people are using my money, they work for me, I do not work for them, keep your nose out, my money, stop poking your nose into my business, I only put my money into your den to manage it, the vermin banks mismanage it and then expect the taxpayer and the government (TAXPAYER) to bail them out! Who has criminal suspicion out of this? Who is the fraudster? And they want my info? Do you have your Bank managers home address and his NI Number, DOB, phone number? Nett and Gross Income etc? Has your Bank manager that is "looking after your money" provided you with a certified ID? verified by a lawyer? I doubt it!

Who are the <deleted> that are robbing us?

[aberman1970]

I still have my UK HSBC account & cards all registered to me in Thailand and have been for quite a few years now, HMRC are also aware of my address in Thailand but I am non-resident so makes no difference to myself.

I just assumed you were non-resident given the amount of time you've been out the UK, if your still registered as living in UK maybe not such a good idea as HSBC will inform HMRC of your address (HSBC send you a letter which needs to be copied, signed and returned to them as proof, it states on the letter it is to inform HMRC as to your overseas residence).

If you are non-resident its not an problem.

[Soutpeel]

This is not HMRC this is HSBC covering their <deleted> thats all, your using a UK address and claiming "residence" in Thailand, thats why they are querying all this

And why would one be paying double taxes if their are reciprocal tax agreements in place ? Even the Americans dont pay double taxes

I think if you look more closely the Americans pay tax in both countries, I might be wrong, I hope I am as it is disgusting.!

No they dont, they have to submit tax returns where ever they are, but if they were paying tax in Thailand they wouldnt be paying tax on the same money in the US as there are reciprocal tax agreements in place to avoid this

The UK doesnt require the sumission a tax return for all its subjects if they have no presence in the UK are non resident ......i am sure the f*kcers have thought about though LOL

OK, thanks for the info, I assumed that a lot of Americans were paying tax here to the US and on income they had in the US, seemed very unfair. There was even a documentary about US citizens giving back their passports and relinquishing citizenship.....you ever hear about that? Due to double taxation in Europe?

They can give their PP back but I believe before the US accepts they are no longer US citizens their tax affairs with the US have to be in order.....in other words they will not let them renounce their citizenship to get away from paying any tax that might be owed

[Soutpeel]

At the end of the day, these people are using my money, they work for me, I do not work for them, keep your nose out, my money, stop poking your nose into my business, I only put my money into your den to manage it, the vermin banks mismanage it and then expect the taxpayer and the government (TAXPAYER) to bail them out! Who has criminal suspicion out of this? Who is the fraudster? And they want my info? Do you have your Bank managers home address and his NI Number, DOB, phone number? Nett and Gross Income etc? Has your Bank manager that is "looking after your money" provided you with a certified ID? verified by a lawyer? I doubt it!

Who are the bastards that are robbing us?

If you want to place blame on all this blame the US, the banks are sh@t scared of being fined and sanctioned by the US....

I bank in Singapore with Citi, and have done so for many years, the company I work for pays a portion of my salary out of various accounts they have world wide and on a couple of occasions I was paid by them out of accounts they have in the US ie a bank transfer and Citi in Singapore got very twitchy over these transfers and they phoned me for assurances that

1. I hadn't worked in the US

2. I wasn't a US citizen or PR ( which I am not)

In the end I got a letter from the Thai company stating " Uncle Soutie has been in employed in Thailand on a permanent basis with the company since 2001 and is not a US citizen or PR of the US " and sent it to them, bearing in mind when I opened the account I had signed the declaration that I wasnt a US citizen or a PR of the US

[SantiSuk]

Normally anyone receiving income arising in the UK suffers the potential for some element of UK taxation on such income, even if they are UK non resident for tax purposes; I'm talking here about persons who have previously been resident UK - I know nothing of the non-resident / non-dom tax rules applying say to people who come from abroad and have some income arising in the UK.

Normally anyone receiving dividends in the UK will receive the dividend net of 10% dividend tax credit even if they have "left the UK" and are now non resident. Normally anyone who receives bank interest in the UK receives it after deduction of 20% basic rate tax, unless the taxpayer has registered to claim that she/he is not liable for taxation in the UK.

I don't know how you legitimately avoid dividend tax credit and the 20% tax on interest deduction Menzies?

It's quite normal to avoid paying any further income tax on your dividend income if you are non-resident; it's covered by the disregarded (investment) income rules. If it works better for you one simply does not claim a personal allowance and then there is no liability on investment income (eg equity dividends and bank interest) beyond the taxation that has already been deducted at source (ie 10% dividend tax credit and 20% tax deduction from bank interest). You have to have a fair bit of investment income mind before it is beneficial to go the disregarded income route rather than the personal allowance route.

The whole issue of disregarded income is a bit up in the air (last time I looked) consequent upon the changes in the way dividends and interest are to be taxed in the UK from this tax year onwards.

By the way Americans do not pay double taxation in two countries on the same income if there is a relevant double taxation treaty in place. Where they are disadvantaged is that they must pay taxation at US rates on income arising overseas (but can deduct the tax they have already paid overseas. This prevents them from taking advantage of lower tax rates in tax havens and tax-advantaged countries for their income that arises in these countries.

[Retired Chartered Accountant (but not a tax specialist beyond self-advice!)]

Off topic

Edited September 18, 2015 by SantiSuk

[SantiSuk]

Errata. It was KittenKong not Menzies who said he paid no tax on dividends and interest received in the UK. Can no longer edit my post.

[KittenKong]

Errata. It was KittenKong not Menzies who said he paid no tax on dividends and interest received in the UK. Can no longer edit my post.

As I mentioned, I have no liability to tax on UK dividends beyond that which is deducted at source and which cannot be reclaimed by anyone any more. And I pay no tax on UK bank interest as this is all paid to me gross thanks to form R105 and, as you mention, the liability to tax on bank interest is also limited to that paid at source ie zero. I also pay no CGT as non-residents are exempt from this (excluding property).

This has been covered a few times in this forum and in the home country forum.

As you mention, how this will work from next year is not yet very clear though I see no obvious reason why anything should change significantly as any big change would probably just result in non-residents removing their wealth from the UK. I probably would. We shall see.

[topt]

Normally anyone receiving income arising in the UK suffers the potential for some element of UK taxation on such income, even if they are UK non resident for tax purposes; I'm talking here about persons who have previously been resident UK - I know nothing of the non-resident / non-dom tax rules applying say to people who come from abroad and have some income arising in the UK.

Normally anyone receiving dividends in the UK will receive the dividend net of 10% dividend tax credit even if they have "left the UK" and are now non resident. Normally anyone who receives bank interest in the UK receives it after deduction of 20% basic rate tax, unless the taxpayer has registered to claim that she/he is not liable for taxation in the UK.

I don't know how you legitimately avoid dividend tax credit and the 20% tax on interest deduction Menzies?

It's quite normal to avoid paying any further income tax on your dividend income if you are non-resident; it's covered by the disregarded (investment) income rules. If it works better for you one simply does not claim a personal allowance and then there is no liability on investment income (eg equity dividends and bank interest) beyond the taxation that has already been deducted at source (ie 10% dividend tax credit and 20% tax deduction from bank interest). You have to have a fair bit of investment income mind before it is beneficial to go the disregarded income route rather than the personal allowance route.

The whole issue of disregarded income is a bit up in the air (last time I looked) consequent upon the changes in the way dividends and interest are to be taxed in the UK from this tax year onwards.

By the way Americans do not pay double taxation in two countries on the same income if there is a relevant double taxation treaty in place. Where they are disadvantaged is that they must pay taxation at US rates on income arising overseas (but can deduct the tax they have already paid overseas. This prevents them from taking advantage of lower tax rates in tax havens and tax-advantaged countries for their income that arises in these countries.

[Retired Chartered Accountant (but not a tax specialist beyond self-advice!)]

Off topic:sorry:

The one other main area a UK non resident for tax purposes would pay tax on would be if they had any rental income - irrespective of which route they went above.

[tso310]

I am very surprised that HSBC rang you up and have asked you for personal info over the phone. They and other British banks regularly send out emails stating that they do not do this. If you ring them up yes re checking you are really who you say you are but not the other way.

Edited September 19, 2015 by tso310

[chiang mai]

I am very surprised that HSBC rang you up and have asked you for personal info over the phone. They and other British banks regularly send out emails stating that they do not do this. If you ring them up yes re checking you are really who you say you are but not the other way.

You have to contact them first to agree a time/date for the call and security checks are in place on both occasions. The information asked for is financial holdings history, source of funds, income vs expense, profile of the account, objectives and plans for the future etc, no PIN's are asked for, it's all conversational.

[Ricardo]

I bank with HSBC in Jersey, but am Thai-resident, and have also seen them improve their 'know-your-client' activities in the past few years.

I suspect we're being caught-up in their efforts to avoid any more large fines, for facilitating the laundering of money for drugs-criminals and the like. As usual the effort is made, to close the stable-door, a decade too late and the wrong door !

[DocTom]

I too have been contacted by HSBC re. its Safeguard initiative. In fact they reduced the withdrawal limit on my debit card because I had not responded (by mistake.) This caused serious annoyance! I have banked with them for nearly 30 years

I sent the required documents, certified as true copies by my Thai bank, as indicated as an option on the HSBC Safeguard website.

I have just been contacted to say that cerification by a Thai bank is not acceptable, and that I will have to get more copies notarized.

This nuisance comes after a similar episode concerning FATCA compliance.

I am now seiously interested in changing banks - does anyone know of reliable banks that will accept new customers by online application?

[Bobotie]

I too have been contacted by HSBC re. its Safeguard initiative. In fact they reduced the withdrawal limit on my debit card because I had not responded (by mistake.) This caused serious annoyance! I have banked with them for nearly 30 years

I sent the required documents, certified as true copies by my Thai bank, as indicated as an option on the HSBC Safeguard website.

I have just been contacted to say that cerification by a Thai bank is not acceptable, and that I will have to get more copies notarized.

This nuisance comes after a similar episode concerning FATCA compliance.

I am now seiously interested in changing banks - does anyone know of reliable banks that will accept new customers by online application?

As long as your not a US citizen, Citibank IPB in Singapore might still do it, but they will want USD 200k off you to open the account..

[Guest jonzboy]

I've recently been contacted by HSBC UK Safeguard too. I had the usual inquisition as described by Chiang Mai. As I was answering the questions I realised how difficult my situation was. If I was unable to satisfy their unidentified expectations I would instantaneously lose my HSBC accounts both here in UK (where I currently reside) and overseas. Scary to say the least. They have us over a barrel with it becoming almost impossible to set up an account here in UK if you are not resident. I'm surprised to see the draconian requirements for certified documents. Thankfully I only had to provide a couple of scanned statements from some of my overseas banking activity.

I am also aware that there is now an email scam using this safeguarding activity as a smoke screen. Beware. Always confirm identification before answering any questions. Mine was a cold caller so I apologised and said I would need to call HSBC myself to check on the callers identity and correct telephone number.