Bambinos, Dual Citizenship

[Pee Jin]

My baby daughter is due in december, my girlfriend is thai and i'm from the uk. Will my daughter b able 2 get british and thai citizenship? Has anyone out there in a similar situation or hav any useful advise 2 offer?

[ColPyat]

My baby daughter is due in december, my girlfriend is thai and i'm from the uk. Will my daughter b able 2 get british and thai citizenship? Has anyone out there in a similar situation or hav any useful advise 2 offer?

Yes.

Only when your daughter is 18 she is supposed to choose her citizenship according to Thai law. In reality though it is almost impossible to lose British citicenship, so most definately she will be able to retain British citicenship if she keeps it quiet with the Thai authorities.

If she is born in the UK it can happen that the Thai embassy might creat a problem (i am aware of such cases), but she has a right to Thai citicenship.

If she is born in Thailand - it is simple. Just make sure that you are named as the father in the birth certificate (almost impossible to change afterwards), and then notify the embassy.

[Maizefarmer]

There is a lot of misconception about this subject.

The facts are as follows:

She is entitled to UK citizenship by default if you , the father are a UK natioanl, so long as it is sorted out by her 16th birthday (note - I am talking here about K citizenship immaterial of where she is born.

In respect of Thai citizenship - she is AUTOMATICALLY a Thai citizen if her mother is Thai and she is born in Thailand.

Thridly, she is entitled to hold dual UK / Thai nationality: the Brits have no objection to her holding a Thai pasport, and the Thai have no objection to her holding a Brit passport, and she will not be declined British citizenship on the basis that she has Thai citizenship. Things are a little diffferent if the application is made after the age of 16, but not much - and in your case, I do not beleive there would be any differance i.e. the entitlement to UK citizenship would stand.

How do I know this - because I am a dual UK/USA citizen - and 2 years ago (in prep for my oldest to go to Uni in America next year) the desicion had to be made wether or not he would decide to take up UK or USA citizenship as his 2nd nationality.

Oh - and yes, my wife is a Thai nbational.

Now things become a little complicated or different if the child's father is a Thai citizen, but the mother is not, and the child is born outside of Thailand. I stand to be corrected, but as I understand the matter, that child is NOT automatically entitled to Thai citizenship (the noteable differance here been its the father that is Thai - not the mother). - but this is all another story all by its self.

Yourc ase is clear cut - no ambiguity about it - she is entitled to UK citizenship - period - and will not/cannot be denied.

Tim

[Ulysses]

They why during a news broadcast, did they say that Thailand only acknowledges one citizenship, and then go on to blast thai women who travel abroad while pregnant to try and gain dual citizenship for their children?

They further went on to say that the new id card would help fix this problem.

[moonoi]

They why during a news broadcast, did they say that Thailand only acknowledges one citizenship, and then go on to blast thai women who travel abroad while pregnant to try and gain dual citizenship for their children?

They further went on to say that the new id card would help fix this problem.

Don't know but my understanding is the same as Maizefarmer. No need to keep quiet about it to the Thai authorities as they now accept Dual Nationality and have done for sometime.

I know several Thai people that hold Dual Nationality btw, mostly OZ/Thai but a couple of UK/Thai and US/Thai as well and they don't have any problems.

[samran]

There is a lot of misconception about this subject.

You can say that again, but your email has slightly perpetuated it from the Thai perspective.

In respect of Thai citizenship - she is AUTOMATICALLY a Thai citizen if her mother is Thai and she is born in Thailand.

No quite, Thai nationality law is far more liberal than that. In fact, any child born to at least one Thai parent is entitled to Thai nationality. This is irrespective of the place of birth.

Now things become a little complicated or different if the child's father is a Thai citizen, but the mother is not, and the child is born outside of Thailand. I stand to be corrected, but as I understand the matter, that child is NOT automatically entitled to Thai citizenship (the noteable differance here been its the father that is Thai - not the mother). - but this is all another story all by its self.

Tim

No - see previous comment. The only situation where the nationality of the father has a bearing on anything is for a dual national child where the father is a foreign national and the mother is Thai. Thai law stipulates that for a child with this type of parentage, the child, between the ages of 20 and 21, has the option of choosing their citizenships. It is an option only and if the option is not invoked, there is no problem.

Believe me, I know. Also, reading the legislation also helps too.

[singa-traz]

They why during a news broadcast, did they say that Thailand only acknowledges one citizenship, and then go on to blast thai women who travel abroad while pregnant to try and gain dual citizenship for their children?

They further went on to say that the new id card would help fix this problem.

Mainly a Thai-Malaysian issue.

Malaysia do not recognise and prohibit dual nationality.

[Jockstar]

I've mentioned this before. But i have Brit PP and the wife Thai. we are moving to OZ and intend to have family in 2 years. So my kid can have 3 PPs.

Edited September 28, 2006 by Jockstar

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I've mentioned this before. But i have Brit PP and the wife Thai. we are moving to OZ and intend to have family in 2 years. So my kid can have 3 PPs.

Will you be a permanent resident of Australia in 2 years Jock ?

[Little_Buddy]

I am a dual UK/USA citizen - and 2 years ago (in prep for my oldest to go to Uni in America next year) the desicion had to be made wether or not he would decide to take up UK or USA citizenship as his 2nd nationality.

Tim

Why did you have to decide between US and UK? Is there some rule that only 2 citizenships are allowed?

I think your kid is eligible for all 3...

[barryofthailand]

So many people get confused on dual citizenship. Register the birth at your home embassy. If born in Thailand you will have to get the birth certificate translated to English and certified by the foreign ministers office.

Here's where people get confused, you can have dual citizenship but not dual alegence. In other words weather your from the USA, UK, oe Thailand your alegence can only be to one country.

Barry

[madmitch]

I note that you use the word 'girlfriend' and not wife.

I have a one year old daughter born in Thailand to a Thai girlfriend and I want to get her a British passport. From research on the embassy website plus other threads on this forum, things are much more complicated if you are not married at the time of the birth and you need to seek Home Office approval, which can be a long and no doubt expensive process.

There were rumours that this was going to change but as yet I have heard nothing.

If anyone knows of any changes please let me and the OP know.

[dave111223]

Is is possible to have Tri-Citizenship?

I have both US and British citizenship, and my wife is Thai, so would that mean our kids would be Thai, US, and British?

Edited October 1, 2006 by dave111223

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I note that you use the word 'girlfriend' and not wife.

I have a one year old daughter born in Thailand to a Thai girlfriend and I want to get her a British passport. From research on the embassy website plus other threads on this forum, things are much more complicated if you are not married at the time of the birth and you need to seek Home Office approval, which can be a long and no doubt expensive process.

There were rumours that this was going to change but as yet I have heard nothing.

If anyone knows of any changes please let me and the OP know.

The Brits are still very Victorian about their views on marraige being a requirement. You'll ultimately win but it will take determination.

[Maizefarmer]

I am a dual UK/USA citizen - and 2 years ago (in prep for my oldest to go to Uni in America next year) the desicion had to be made wether or not he would decide to take up UK or USA citizenship as his 2nd nationality.

Tim

Why did you have to decide between US and UK? Is there some rule that only 2 citizenships are allowed?

I think your kid is eligible for all 3...

I didnt have to decide - UK from my father - American from my mother, but as far as the kids go tri- citizenship? - is it possible, I didnt know that - can someone clarify that beyound any doubt (i.e. it is possible to be a citizen of all 3 countries?? ) - what about 4 or 5 countries?? - where is th eline drawn?

In response to SAMRAN's response - yes, he has quoted the law correctly and in detail - I was trying to keep it simple: i.e. if mom is Thai then junior will be as well by default.

In the case of the child born overseas and only dad is Thai - NO it is not default the child will be Thai i.e. at some stage an applicantion will have to be made for "consideration" (for lack of a better word) and if its not done by the age of 18 (according to the Thai literature I am reading - dated Nov 2002 - in which it may since have changed as samaram yes he has read 20 to 21 years of age- so yes samran - I have read the "book") it is not automatic , inpractise however I cant see any reason why they would not be issued with a Thai passport/citizenship - whereas in the case of the mother been Thai, in practise the applicant could be 25 or even 30 or even older, and they will be issued with a Thai passport (which is what this conversation is all about I think).

In summary if your mom is a Thai citizen, immaterial of how old you are and where you were born or have lived - apply for a Thai passport and the chances are you are going to get it, whereas if you are born overseas and mom is not a Thai citizen but Dad is, you can exercise the option up to the age of 18 - 20 -21 (depending on what you read and when it was written - most recently literature indicating application option between the age of 20 - 21).

Fair comment - and I did say I stand to be corrected on the fine detail regards that

Tim

Edited October 1, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[Pink Mist]

Do the septics allow dual citizenship?

I seem to recall a certain newspaper magnate that had to renounce his citizenship.

[Maizefarmer]

Do the septics allow dual citizenship?

I seem to recall a certain newspaper magnate that had to renounce his citizenship.

Sorry - lost you there BRONCO- "septics" (?), and which country are we referring to Thailand and one other or 2 different countries?

[samran]

I am a dual UK/USA citizen - and 2 years ago (in prep for my oldest to go to Uni in America next year) the desicion had to be made wether or not he would decide to take up UK or USA citizenship as his 2nd nationality.

Tim

Why did you have to decide between US and UK? Is there some rule that only 2 citizenships are allowed?

I think your kid is eligible for all 3...

I didnt have to decide - UK from my father - American from my mother, but as far as the kids go tri- citizenship? - is it possible, I didnt know that - can someone clarify that beyound any doubt (i.e. it is possible to be a citizen of all 3 countries?? ) - what about 4 or 5 countries?? - where is th eline drawn?

In response to SAMRAN's response - yes, he has quoted the law correctly and in detail - I was trying to keep it simple: i.e. if mom is Thai then junior will be as well by default.

In the case of the child born overseas and only dad is Thai - NO it is not default the child will be Thai i.e. at some stage an applicantion will have to be made for "consideration" (for lack of a better word) and if its not done by the age of 18 (according to the Thai literature I am reading - dated Nov 2002 - in which it may since have changed as samaram yes he has read 20 to 21 years of age- so yes samran - I have read the "book") it is not automatic , inpractise however I cant see any reason why they would not be issued with a Thai passport/citizenship - whereas in the case of the mother been Thai, in practise the applicant could be 25 or even 30 or even older, and they will be issued with a Thai passport (which is what this conversation is all about I think).

In summary if your mom is a Thai citizen, immaterial of how old you are and where you were born or have lived - apply for a Thai passport and the chances are you are going to get it, whereas if you are born overseas and mom is not a Thai citizen but Dad is, you can exercise the option up to the age of 18 - 20 -21 (depending on what you read and when it was written - most recently literature indicating application option between the age of 20 - 21).

Fair comment - and I did say I stand to be corrected on the fine detail regards that

Tim

Thanks Tim,

I'd be keen on seeing what you are reading which is from 2002. Is it from the actual 2535 Act with is available on the Council of State's website? If it is, I'd like to see what I've missed, as it may become material to me if we go back to OZ have have another one there.

As for having three nationalities. I have cousins with Brit, Thai and Australian nationality. No worries, as none of the countries care about multiple nationalities. Our little one also has three, Thai, Aust and Kiwi nationailty. No probems on that front either.

[Maizefarmer]

SAMRAN - yes it is from the 2535 Act - but its not on the net - its printed matter and its Thai, which my other half was sent in late 2005 (when she was discussing with our oldest what he wanted to do regards citizenship for the rest of his life - as he is off to study overseas - so she was sent a copy of the whole Act - Thai.

If you wish, and can hang on a few days I can get it scanned in and sent to you by email - at least the relivant pages, on this topic, and in all fairness (i.e. to make it clear to all who have an interest in this subject - there quite a few suttle differances between what is on the website, what is written in English and what is written in Thai) I do see where your comments are coming from, and in that sense - mine ar eno better than yours.

Which means as often is the case in Thailand - it can be very difficult to know what is correct and how the matter would be handled - untill you actually go about the process and have to answer to the officials dealing with it at the time.

AS for 3 nationalities - nope, I had no idea - thank you for that - though in my case (and the kids) I think we'll all settle on 2. Hate to say it, but in this modern world you are more a marked card with a USA passport than you are with a THai or UK passport (though with a UK passport you are not far behind).

Tim

[Pink Mist]

Sorry have to stop doing that, I meant Americans, it's a colloquialism we Aussies use to refer to them. Setic tanks=yanks=Americans

[samran]

Tim,

PM me when you have a copy - that would be fantastic. To date, I've basically gone off what is in the council of states website - essentially the Thai language legislation, so anything that I haven't seen would be good.

In reality you are right however, the process is down to the officials at hand. In my case however, I'm usually the one educating the official however!!!

I'm keen to know however, all the ins-and-outs. For me, especially, knowing the rights that my little one will have at her disposal based on her nationality is important.

[Maizefarmer]

Sorry have to stop doing that, I meant Americans, it's a colloquialism we Aussies use to refer to them. Setic tanks=yanks=Americans

Yes - they do, I am a dual USA/UK citizen so is my wife (who is dual THAI /USA) and one of my kids - dual THAI/USA).

They have no objection

Tim

[Maestro]

I'd be keen on seeing what you are reading which is from 2002. Is it from the actual 2535 Act with is available on the Council of State's website? If it is, I'd like to see what I've missed, as it may become material to me if we go back to OZ have have another one there.

As for having three nationalities. I have cousins with Brit, Thai and Australian nationality. No worries, as none of the countries care about multiple nationalities. Our little one also has three, Thai, Aust and Kiwi nationailty. No probems on that front either.

As the discussion between Samran and Maizefarmer is getting scholarly I thought I would post the links to Thailand’s Nationality Act B.E. 2535 (1992) in Thai and in English, as a reference for others taking an interest in this.

– See section 7(1) for the acquisition of Thai nationality by birth.

– See section 14 regarding the option of a dual national born of an alien father to declare his intention to renounce his Thai nationality.

Maizefarmer: it is under section 14, not section 7(1) – and also section 17 – where it makes a difference whether the Thai parent is the mother or the father. Alien father = Thai mother = possibility to offer to renounce Thai nationality. Alien mother = Thai father = no possibility to offer to renounce Thai nationality.

Reading section 14 we must remember that Thai law applies to Thai territory. In other words, where it says “if he desires to retain his other nationality”, I interpret it to mean “if he wants to be recognised by the Thai government as an alien and benefit from the rights such alien has under Thai law”. This is the basic reason why it is generally recommended that a dual Thai citizen should, as a rule, use his Thai passport to enter and leave Thailand.

Note also – and Samran pointed this out in another thread some months ago – that the requirement for a Thai national to declare his intention to renounce his other nationality, if he desires to do so, states that he would have to make this declaration “within one year after his attaining the age of twenty years”. If he misses this narrow time window, he is condemned to live with his dual nationality for the rest of his life or, in other words, whatever may happen nobody can question his dual nationality. The only way he could still lose his Thai nationality would be a revocation under Section 17, but not if he was born outside Thailand.

This interpretation is based on the English translation of the law and I do not know how accurate this translation is.

---------------

Maestro

[Maizefarmer]

MAESTRO

Hang on Hang on - wher did I quote anything about any particular section saying abc or xyz, but fo rthe record from what I can see (and yes - we have to be carfule here with hows words are used and in what context - I knew this would happen and I was desperate to keep it simple and stright forward...), what you are saying is pretty consistant with what I said in my very first psoting on the subject - before I had to come back and use different words:

As well, I said nothing about entering or leaving Thailand on one or the other passport - anothe rissue you raise - yes this is getting scholarly now isnt it!! But for the record, you bet - I agree, that if you are a Thai coming into Thaland or leaving it should be done on a Thai passport - and thats what the family does. However - upon arrival at the other side, out comes the foreign passport,which is then used to depart that country, and the Thai one is represented back on arrival in Thailand. In my personal case its a little different, al my PR detail is associated with my USA passport, and therefore I have to use that passport when coming and going from Thailand - because all my PR books, work permit info/details ect ect (become a PR with a work permitt - and you get a load of different coloured books to carry around with you !!) are all associated with my USA passport. My UK passport is nothing but a blank document with a visa to Mauritania stuck in it (because I had to go there last year and I did not fancy marking myself in that part of the world as a USA citizen).

But waffle aside - yes your observation is correct (or rather the Nations observation) - it is a jolly sensible thing to enter and leave the country of which you are a citizen using the id documentation that applies to that country. Point taken.

With respect to the next issue you raise, you say that a dual Thai citizen would have to renounce their Thai citizenship and has to do so between the age of 20-21 else they are stick with it for the rest of their life!!

Sorry to sound defensive, but it formed no part of what I said earlier, and to add to that - that is something I did not know or can recall - so thankyou for sharing that with me. It has never been an issue with respect to my kids - as I said , and I make no bones about it - and it is why we have choosen to stay here and settle here - my two have been brought up to be fiercly proud to be Thai and the ONLY reason why they have daul citizenship is because firstly they are legally entitled to it an secondly it saves a ton of hassle when it comes to traveling.

.............. and your next question will be, well how do they leave Thailand on a Thai passport, without having a visa stamped in it?

Both are presented, but they are "stamped" out in the Thai passport and are "stamped" back in on the Thai passport so to speak - and the clearance officer just looks at the other one and says, fine on your way - and that is the law, meaning if you are a Thai dual citizen you have to enter and leave Thailand on your Thai passport. And that is the law with respect to the USA as well, meaning if you are USA dual citizen you have to enter and leave the USA on your USA passport (there are a few USA dual national exceptions to that rule - but Thailand is not one of the exceptions).

.........hel_l this is becoming a subject and a half. I am going toleave something out ion a moment and someone is going to take great delight in jumping all over me.

Tim

[geoffphuket]

I note that you use the word 'girlfriend' and not wife.

I have a one year old daughter born in Thailand to a Thai girlfriend and I want to get her a British passport. From research on the embassy website plus other threads on this forum, things are much more complicated if you are not married at the time of the birth and you need to seek Home Office approval, which can be a long and no doubt expensive process.

There were rumours that this was going to change but as yet I have heard nothing.

If anyone knows of any changes please let me and the OP know.

The law changed this year regarding British Citizenship for children born out of wedlock.

It is now possible for you to obtain British Citizenship for your child from the British Embassy in Bangkok, even if you are still not married..... You do not need to seek home office approval.

The web site has still not been updated, but if you contact them by phone or personal visit, the simple procedure will be explained to you.

geoffphuket

[samran]

actually, I think it is pretty good to have this discussion, with informed people such as yourself Tim.

The problem with this topic, on this board, has been in 99.9% of cases, it is "my bar buddy" or "my wife's mate at the hairdresser said..." that dual nationality is not legal. So to have a good chat about it is refreshing! Bring it on!

One thing that I have decided on though, is that much of the legislation was written to be ambiguous and unenforcable. This reflects the situation that too many powerful people in Thailand have dual nationality, or that their familiy members have it too. But, like many things in Thailand, the law had to be written in such a way to appease at least some opponents of the whole dual nationality concept.

Hence the many revisions to the law to make it not OK but OK to have dual nationality, as well as the option of giving it back via application, if god forbid, you actually do lose it. Also, the Thai law lacks, as far as I can tell, any solid administrative proceedure to take it away if indeed you do actual fall foul of some of the latter clauses in the law.

For me, the proof in the pudding in the whole issue is that I breeze in and out of Thailand and do the passport swap with no hassel.

[Maestro]

Hang on Hang on - wher did I quote anything about any particular section saying abc or xyz...

I regognise that my post was too expansive and thus apt to create confusion. I should have limited it to the point you made:

Now things become a little complicated or different if the child's father is a Thai citizen, but the mother is not, and the child is born outside of Thailand. I stand to be corrected, but as I understand the matter, that child is NOT automatically entitled to Thai citizenship (the noteable differance here been its the father that is Thai - not the mother). - but this is all another story all by its self.

In the above context, i.e. the acquisition of Thai nationality by birth, it makes no difference whether the father or the mother is Thai, whether the child is born in Thailand or outside Thailand.

However, you remembered correctly that it can make a difference, but this is in another context, i.e. the option to renounce Thai nationality, and the governments option to revoke a Thai dual national’s Thai nationality.

---------------

Maestro

[Maizefarmer]

Yes - I am speaking from the experiance of having done and been through this subject my self both in respect of the missus and the 2 kids, but that said - all you have to do is read GEOFFPHUKET's contribution above - in which he notes another change to the law, as recent as this year, which although is not strictly speaking what we were speaking about is none-the-less an example of how a small point in the law can change which adds a facit to the discussion which if you didnt know about, you could be swearing blind the other person was wrong on.

In some senses this subject can be like the visa subject - it doesnt matter how much it is discussed in public forum, and the questions are answered, you can be sure that somone will be able to add a twist to it that throws conventional undertsanding out the window.

And SAMRANS contribution above adds even more complication to the subject - in that the law (like getting a visa) can be open to different application depending on who you are dealing with on the government side in Thailand.

I could write verbatim word for word the whole law from the most recent printing and it would not suprize me int he least if someone came along and said, "<deleted> - now let me tell you about my experiance ..." and then went on to tell us all whathappened to him, which throws the law out the window!!

Heres another intersting differance. With respect to my youngest who is not on a USA passport but a UK passport, ALL travel into and out of Thailand to/from Thailand and the UK is done a Thai passport - even going into the UK which will allow dual citizens to enter on their foreign citizenship passports (which the USA does not allow - you have to go in on the USA Passport), is stamped by the UK Embassy in Bangkok with a "RIGHT OF ABODE IN UK" stamp - hence the UK passport is never used.

.......never ends, we could on all night.

The option to volunterily renounce your citizenship between the age of 20 -21 - could only happen here couldn't it!!

Tim

[Boo]

this is really interesting & it good to see, as samran pointed out, people with actualy knowledge of the law, giving their knowledge.

So now I have buttered you guys up I've got a question

A friend has an 11 y/o half thai son born in the UK but with the fathers name on the birth certificate. Now the thai father is a prize ###### & as well as making his ex wifes life a misery for many years refuses to sign any documentation for his son to get a thai passport. Does any one know a way for the mother to obtain this passport for her son as she doesn't want him to lose his thai heritage just cause his dads a prat?

[Maizefarmer]

Yes - get the birth certifcate that shows dad is a Thai - now pass begin, do not collect 200 - proceed staright to a lawyers office who will phone a dozen different immigration officials, who will tell him a dozen different stories and after 18 months you'll find out that it was real simple and could have been done in a jiffy at the Embassy in London!!!!

No jokes aside, my understanding has always been that it was only an automatic right if mom was the Thai citizen in the relationship but no the other way round - and from what you are asking, meaning the fact that you are asking suggests that the UK citizen mom already knows this.

But this is not to say that because the childs mother is not a Thai (but dad is) that the child cannot get Thai citizenship. My understanding is that the child can bu that the process is a little different.

That all said - their are members who disagree with my understanding.

In any event, what the case the fact remains that the kid is only 11 and I am certain that the Thai option is open, and just because dad is wanting to be difficult should not be able to stop it.

MY advise is the first thing mom wants to do is get hold of the original birth certificate and never let dad get his hands on it again - as you'll never get an orignal replaced except with a copy. An orignal birth certifcate is an important document when it comes to sorting otu nationality issues.

Then, that done she should have a discreet chat with the Thai Embassy in the Uk, sking them what docs are need to apply for child to get Thai citizenship wher the mother is UK and the dad is Thai - and see what they say. They will tellher one of 2 things: it will be as striaghfroward as geting all the docs together and applying and not requiring both parents to be present ecte ect, or some hurdle will have to be overcome which will require the co-operation of both parents - in whcih case, without saying anything to the Embassy she should then go away and work out how that problem can be overcome. Maybe it will needs alwyers invovlement, but quite honestly, I cant see dad ben able to sopt it just because he wants to be difficult. The kid at that age is almost certainly entitled to it one way or the other.

Tim

Edited October 1, 2006 by Maizefarmer