Forensic team to testify in Koh Tao murder trial

[arrowsdawdle]

So you haven't any then and are just making up stories like the prosecution and RTP are doing..thought so..at least we know though !! You've asked many times for posters on here to justify themselves and qualifications and opinion and I have asked you to do the same and you can't...okay that's fine and I understand why for sure !!

My guess if Aleg is the authority on gaits as he claims he would offer more of an in depth analysis than just making an empty claim about implied differences between a running barefoot gait compared to a walking flip flopped gait. I for one have no idea but i reason the legs and feet based on structure will still have the same sort of position in movement (direction toes point)

But i am also convinced that video is fresh milk so whadda I know.

You don't even have to be an expert to find out, do a run barefoot, then do the same with flip flops, I guarantee that you will run differently.

For starters when running or walking barefoot you don't have to worry about the flip flops flying off at the end of the leg extension.

Besides that when running people tend to instinctively straighten their feet so that the run is more efficient the muscles and tendons in the calf work as springs, absorbing energy during the contact phase and releasing it to propel the foot in the direction it is pointing at. That is why you can see people walking casually with their feet pointing outwards but when running they point more straight ahead.

In any case the differences would be quite small, and using a grainy, dark CCTV footage as a basis for analysis is basing things on shaky grounds.

The reason Gait Analysis technology was created is specifically for the reasons you mentioned above, where its difficult to identify the witness with poor cctv. A professional makes allowances for all scenarios including footwear, he would not be an expert if he did not. A fact you seem to overlook despite being a self professed expert on the matter.

Now your discrediting the profession because it does not suit your opinion.

Gait analysis was developed in podiatry, not for identifying witnesses.

[dundee48]

Fireplay

When we stand we tend to have our feet slightly pointed outwards and even when we walk that happens to a degree. However when we run we tend to have our toes pointed straighter as its a more efficient method as the power is transferred up through the body directly . Try it sometime. Stand as normal with your toes pointing slightly out and bend your knees and they will go outwards slightly and you lose propulsion that way. If you stand with your toes and feet parallel to each other and bend your knees you will find the movement will be upwards and therefore more efficient propulsion up through your body. Same kind of applies when running. But AleG will know that of course as he's qualified !

That's what it is! Thank you sir! Looks like our resident gait expert has questionable expertise!

He might possibly be a gate expert but he is certainly not a gait expert.

[StealthEnergiser]

[StealthEnergiser]

Twin murders: Suspects framed, say lawyers

KOH SAMUI (Thailand) • Lawyers defending two Myanmar migrant workers on trial for the murders of two British backpackers sought yesterday to expose holes in a police investigation they maintain was botched and intended to frame the suspects.

The conduct of Thailand's police, and treatment of its huge Myanmar labour force, has been central to the trial of the young men accused of killing Ms Hannah Witheridge and Mr David Miller a year ago, on the southern island of Koh Tao.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/twin-murders-suspects-framed-say-lawyers

[Fat Haggis]

We have used Gait to describe a person, since the 1980's

We used an A-H profile when doing intelligence gathering and collating information about suspected terrorists in Northern Ireland. The G stood for Gait.

So it's not a new method of part of an identification procedure it's been around for over 30 years within the British Military.

A = Age

B= Build

C= complexion

D= distinguishing marks

E= elevation

F= can't recall

G= Gait

I have used this method for many years and still do to this day, it works.

[AleG]

(UK) Forensic Image Comparison and Interpretation Evidence: Guidance for Prosecutors and Investigators

3.4. Subjective Analysis Due to the absence of a suitable database of facial features and no universally accepted methodology as to how two facial images should be compared, the analysis aspect of facial image comparison (and many other image interpretation tasks such as vehicle identification and gait comparison) is considered a subjective process. Therefore the opinion given by the expert will be based upon their competency, training and study of the specialist subject, rather than objective measurements. (more)

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/405528/Image_Comparison_and_Interpretation_Guidance_Issue_1_160115.pdf

Exactly and why its so important their credentials are checked for their opinion to be considered.

Yes -- and who hired the specialist and whether the testimony of the specialist supports those who hired them should also be taken into consideration.

Also to be taken into consideration is that the persons making claims as to the relevance of the expert testimony have a history of making claims not supported by the actual results of the experts work.

For example last week the defense lawyer claimed that the results from the hoe analysis proved the innocence of their clients, when the actual expert testimony said nothing of the sort.

[xylophone]

...........snip

From what I know the Thai autopsy report states David Miller's cause of death as drowning. My guess is that the UK report doesn't or can't establish that, which wouldn't be surprising since that is usually determined by finding significant amounts of water in the lungs, that will certainly not be present after the first autopsy is carried out and the body embalmed.

Drowning as the cause of death perhaps........nothing to do with 7 or 8 stab wounds to his head of course. Silly me, those 2.5cm wounds were caused by a large hoe according to the RTP.

[Fat Haggis]

The prosecution/RTP also stated that the defendants used the hoe to kill their victims when neither their DNA was found on it, but the victims DNA was.

So can you apply the same reasoning about credibility please AleG to the prosecution claims and "experts"

All these claims are on record and were the basis of their prosecution.

If you cannot see what a complete farce this trial has been , then you really are only here to protect a vested interest or person.

[Thaidream]

The prosecution case is filled with holes and to date they have not proved that the B2 are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. It doesn't even matter what the DNA proves or does not. It has to be excluded because there is no chain of custody. Without the chain of custody, no one can believe anything regarding DNA. The confessions are useless, possibly extracted by coercion; incompetent translators; and general unprofessional actions regarding the confession process. There was no logical motive that was presented by the prosecution. In addition there are questions as to the actual investigation itself. I don't know who may actually committed this horrible crime- but I do know that no one has provided a complete picture of the deceased's actions prior to entering the AC bar; what happened in the AC bar and what happened after they left. Did the defense conduct their own investigation; interviewing all witnesses and developing their own theory of what actually happened? The missing information centers on compiling a timeline for the deceased and the B2.and seeing where it leads. Without this information-the picture is incomplete.

[Fat Haggis]

Significant portions of water in the lungs?

Utter dross, I have had several friends "drown" and the water in their lungs was very small, drowning is asphyxiation of the larynx caused by the person trying to hold their breath till they normally can't hold it any longer and they take a large "gulp"

Two of my friends were knocked unconscious and dragged underwater by fishing gear, the cause of death was put down to drowning at their inquest the water contents in their lungs was less than a cup full.

You can also technically "drown" out of water when lungs fill with blood of you have been shot or hit by an IED the coroners rarely put the cause of death as "drowning" in their own blood but down to " injuries sustained due to GSWs or IEDs/explosions.

There does not need to be a "significant" anount of fluid in the lungs for coroners to declare "death by drowning"

http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/83/11/vanbeeck1105abstract/en/

[JLCrab]

The thing with expert witnesses whether for gait or otherwise appearing in support of the defense or prosecution is that you do not know how many such experts were contacted until one was found that gives the results that supports the desired case.

[StealthEnergiser]

Koh Tao police report ‘inconclusive and unreliable': Andy Hall

The trial of Burmese migrant workers Zaw Linn and Win Zaw Htun, accused of murdering two British holidaymakers, continued yesterday in Koh Samui Courthouse.

Migrant rights advocate Andy Hall presented the findings of his investigation on behalf of the accused. Hall, an advisor to the Thai defence team, told DVB there has never been any evidence that linked the Burmese men to the murders of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller.

In a case that has been riddled with confusion from the outset, the mishandling of DNA was a centre point of Hall’s testimony, where he presented a pathology report prepared by a British pathologist and a gait analysis of CCTV footage.

http://www.dvb.no/news/thai-report-shoddy-and-unreliable-andy-hall-burma-myanar/57553

[StealthEnergiser]

From the above article

"Thai authorities have not made their own report and photographs available, stating that they do not have the budget to print the findings, according to Andy Hall.

“They said they have all the photographs, but no budget, no money to print them out. We asked for them on a CD, but they said ‘no’,” he said."

[metisdead]

Some posts in which the quoted posts had been altered have been removed:

16) You will not make changes to quoted material from other members posts, except for purposes of shortening the quoted post. This cannot be done in such a manner that it alters the context of the original post.

Troll posts have been removed as well.

[Fat Haggis]

But the RTP Have a budget and slush fund that they can purchase Sig Sauer pistols though eh? But are unable to buy a 1000 baht 500 gigabyte hard drive from tesco lotus?

Mmmmmmh okay !! We believe you. Well actually only 3 people here probably do, the rest of us think like most thinks pertaining to this farce and sham of a trail that the RTP are like public toilets..simply full of shit!!

[aslimversgwm]

Can somebody on this forum who knows something about DNA kindly explain this?

Mr Waiyawuth said that a quarter of the indicators from one of the suspects matched the partial profile but that did not mean he could be included as a suspect. DNA experts agree that DNA profiling demands a 99.9999% accurate match.

What is meant by "a quarter of the indicators from one of the suspects matched the partial profile"? Does this mean that the partial profile was from someone of the same ethnicity, i.e. Asian, as one of the suspects?

No it does not.

A DNA profile can be thought of in simple terms as a set of 20- 30 different numbers, depending on whether the UK system (10 pairs of markers) or the US system (13 pairs of markers) is being used.

At each marker you read two numbers. In every person these numbers at each marker can vary between say 5 and 20. It's like a combination lock of 30 numbers long with each of the 30 values having at least 10 possibilities. Finding the combination by chance would have a probability less than one in 50 billion.

In exactly the same way, a DNA profile with all 30 numbers identifies a person absolutely: it is just impossible for two people to have the same set of 30 numbers by chance, so this is a perfect identification system.

BUT if you can only read 20 out of the 30 numbers , or 15 out of the 20, how good is the identification? Only being able to read some of the numbers from a DNA profile is very common indeed: when the DNA is in low amounts, when the DNA is a mix of many people, when the sample is very old and cells are degraded, when the sample is from a rape kit where the swab was taken a long period after the crime and the suspect's sample has been degraded by body enzymes, and so on.

So this is what, in general terms, is meant by a "partial profile".

The situation is even more uncertain here because they are talking about Y-chromosome profiling. This is often done when the DNA is in very low amounts, or is contaminated with huge amounts of victim DNA (as is often the case in sexual assaults), and you can't do a 'proper' 30-marker identification profile.

Because only men have the Y-chromosome, testing for a Y-chromosome profile eliminates all female DNA without having to do complicated chemical separations on the sample that can destroy much of it if the quality or amount is low.

BUT Y-chromosome typing is NOT good enough for identification purposes, because the Y-chromosome, unlike the markers used in the 13 marker profling above, does not change enough over time to be useful. All male relatives: fathers, brother, sons, paternal uncles, will have identical Y-chromosome markers, Also in some populations, especially where there is not much migration, it is possible for the same Y-chromosome profile to be present in as many as 1 in a 1000 unrelated people. So even a complete Y-chromosome profile is not good enough to prove identity.

Its main use is to exclude suspects. If a marker is present with, say, value 20 in a suspect, but the crime scene DNA has the value 11 at this place, this proves beyond argument that the DNA is not the suspect's.

A Y-chromosome match of 25%, which is being discussed here, means that only one quarter of the markers were the same. This means nothing at all about identification, as the witness said. No markers were readable that excluded the suspect, and a match of one quarter of the markers with the suspect gives no indication at all about whether it is his DNA, because this same match could have been obtained from any random man off the street.

Not often I'll bookmark a post but this is one I will. Informative and authoritative post, many thanks

Very clear and authoritative. Thank you

[catsanddogs]

From the above article

"Thai authorities have not made their own report and photographs available, stating that they do not have the budget to print the findings, according to Andy Hall.

“They said they have all the photographs, but no budget, no money to print them out. We asked for them on a CD, but they said ‘no’,” he said."

Set them free! Find the murderers for God's sake. How much more unbelievable can this all get? Surely the parents can see though all this?

[AleG]

The prosecution case is filled with holes and to date they have not proved that the B2 are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. It doesn't even matter what the DNA proves or does not. It has to be excluded because there is no chain of custody. Without the chain of custody, no one can believe anything regarding DNA. The confessions are useless, possibly extracted by coercion; incompetent translators; and general unprofessional actions regarding the confession process. There was no logical motive that was presented by the prosecution. In addition there are questions as to the actual investigation itself. I don't know who may actually committed this horrible crime- but I do know that no one has provided a complete picture of the deceased's actions prior to entering the AC bar; what happened in the AC bar and what happened after they left. Did the defense conduct their own investigation; interviewing all witnesses and developing their own theory of what actually happened? The missing information centers on compiling a timeline for the deceased and the B2.and seeing where it leads. Without this information-the picture is incomplete.

The work of the defense is not to find who "really" did it, it's to get their clients free.

To that end the strategy the defense is using is called FUD, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, to create enough of the three elements to discredit the work of the RTP and the prosecution case. The problem is that doubts and uncertainties are not the way one arrives to the truth, quite the contrary in fact.

[thailandchilli]

From the above article

"Thai authorities have not made their own report and photographs available, stating that they do not have the budget to print the findings, according to Andy Hall.

“They said they have all the photographs, but no budget, no money to print them out. We asked for them on a CD, but they said ‘no’,” he said."

Set them free! Find the murderers for God's sake. How much more unbelievable can this all get? Surely the parents can see though all this?

Just about everyone on this forum and beyond agree with you C&D. The Thai authorities should put an end to this madness and give some respect to the victims and their families. Start again, this time let the UK police actually investigate rather than observe.

[catsanddogs]

The authorities have not and will not make the photos available. They did not have the budget to print the pictures! And they will not show the defence the CD which the photos are on! Why on earth would this be? Surely the bodies were not tampered with after death? Would a Thai pathologist makes changes to the body or bodies to protect certain people? Maybe a bullet was removed from Hannah's face.

[thailandchilli]

The prosecution case is filled with holes and to date they have not proved that the B2 are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. It doesn't even matter what the DNA proves or does not. It has to be excluded because there is no chain of custody. Without the chain of custody, no one can believe anything regarding DNA. The confessions are useless, possibly extracted by coercion; incompetent translators; and general unprofessional actions regarding the confession process. There was no logical motive that was presented by the prosecution. In addition there are questions as to the actual investigation itself. I don't know who may actually committed this horrible crime- but I do know that no one has provided a complete picture of the deceased's actions prior to entering the AC bar; what happened in the AC bar and what happened after they left. Did the defense conduct their own investigation; interviewing all witnesses and developing their own theory of what actually happened? The missing information centers on compiling a timeline for the deceased and the B2.and seeing where it leads. Without this information-the picture is incomplete.

The work of the defense is not to find who "really" did it, it's to get their clients free.

To that end the strategy the defense is using is called FUD, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, to create enough of the three elements to discredit the work of the RTP and the prosecution case. The problem is that doubts and uncertainties are not the way one arrives to the truth, quite the contrary in fact.

Tell that dross to the prosecution, that's all they've provided so far, unsubstantiated uncertainties and doubts but plenty of finger pointing.

[boomerangutang]

Perp threatens/strikes Hannah with hoe. Hannah grabs hoe, resists mightily, hoe possibly passed to David. David attacked from behind by right handed Big Ear cop or Stingray Man (both of whom proudly wore shark tooth weaponized rings). David stabbed multiple times in right side of neck, at least once in back and once in chest. note stabs were aiming for jugular vein - the sort of thing a mafia-wannabe would aim for. Those are wounds inflicted by hard-core tough guys who aim to murder. Exactly the type of thugs who Mon is buddies with.

[phuketandsee]

The phrase "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" has been used quite a lot on these threads. Is this concept actually codified into Thai law or are we just applying Western standards? Anybody know for sure?

[AleG]

Fireplay

When we stand we tend to have our feet slightly pointed outwards and even when we walk that happens to a degree. However when we run we tend to have our toes pointed straighter as its a more efficient method as the power is transferred up through the body directly . Try it sometime. Stand as normal with your toes pointing slightly out and bend your knees and they will go outwards slightly and you lose propulsion that way. If you stand with your toes and feet parallel to each other and bend your knees you will find the movement will be upwards and therefore more efficient propulsion up through your body. Same kind of applies when running. But AleG will know that of course as he's qualified !

That's what it is! Thank you sir! Looks like our resident gait expert has questionable expertise!

Well, this is curious, my post on which I showed that what Nigeone says and what I said were exactly the same thing has disappeared.

Here it goes again:

You don't even have to be an expert to find out, do a run barefoot, then do the same with flip flops, I guarantee that you will run differently.

For starters when running or walking barefoot you don't have to worry about the flip flops flying off at the end of the leg extension.

Besides that when running people tend to instinctively straighten their feet so that the run is more efficient the muscles and tendons in the calf work as springs, absorbing energy during the contact phase and releasing it to propel the foot in the direction it is pointing at. That is why you can see people walking casually with their feet pointing outwards but when running they point more straight ahead.

In any case the differences would be quite small, and using a grainy, dark CCTV footage as a basis for analysis is basing things on shaky grounds.

[fireplay]

Fireplay

When we stand we tend to have our feet slightly pointed outwards and even when we walk that happens to a degree. However when we run we tend to have our toes pointed straighter as its a more efficient method as the power is transferred up through the body directly . Try it sometime. Stand as normal with your toes pointing slightly out and bend your knees and they will go outwards slightly and you lose propulsion that way. If you stand with your toes and feet parallel to each other and bend your knees you will find the movement will be upwards and therefore more efficient propulsion up through your body. Same kind of applies when running. But AleG will know that of course as he's qualified !

That's what it is! Thank you sir! Looks like our resident gait expert has questionable expertise!

Well, this is curious, my post on which I showed that what Nigeone says and what I said were exactly the same thing has disappeared.

Here it goes again:

You don't even have to be an expert to find out, do a run barefoot, then do the same with flip flops, I guarantee that you will run differently.

For starters when running or walking barefoot you don't have to worry about the flip flops flying off at the end of the leg extension.

Besides that when running people tend to instinctively straighten their feet so that the run is more efficient the muscles and tendons in the calf work as springs, absorbing energy during the contact phase and releasing it to propel the foot in the direction it is pointing at. That is why you can see people walking casually with their feet pointing outwards but when running they point more straight ahead.

In any case the differences would be quite small, and using a grainy, dark CCTV footage as a basis for analysis is basing things on shaky grounds.

Sorry sir there does seem to be similar ideas expressed in these 2 posts. But you did go on about fresh milk's gimp arm when it has been noted the entire body's movements are taken into consideration under analysis...looking at him sauntering through that apartment lobby and sauntering down the koh tao street look very similar...but i am no gait expert to be sure.

[luk AJ]

Significant portions of water in the lungs?

Utter dross, I have had several friends "drown" and the water in their lungs was very small, drowning is asphyxiation of the larynx caused by the person trying to hold their breath till they normally can't hold it any longer and they take a large "gulp"

Two of my friends were knocked unconscious and dragged underwater by fishing gear, the cause of death was put down to drowning at their inquest the water contents in their lungs was less than a cup full.

You can also technically "drown" out of water when lungs fill with blood of you have been shot or hit by an IED the coroners rarely put the cause of death as "drowning" in their own blood but down to " injuries sustained due to GSWs or IEDs/explosions.

There does not need to be a "significant" anount of fluid in the lungs for coroners to declare "death by drowning"

http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/83/11/vanbeeck1105abstract/en/

Well at least you were right in 10% of the cases...

[StealthEnergiser]

Thai murder trial told of autopsy discrepancies in reports relating to Hannah Witheridge

A British human rights activist working with the defence lawyers representing the two Burmese men accused of killing Hannah Witheridge, 23, and fellow British tourist David Miller, 24, from Jersey, said he had obtained a copy of the Norfolk coroner’s report and there were serious discrepancies.

Andy Hall, a renowned expert in migrant rights in Thailand, was giving evidence to the court in Koh Samui about the murders which took place on the neighbouring island of Koh Tao last September.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/thai_murder_trial_told_of_autopsy_discrepancies_in_reports_relating_to_hannah_witheridge_1_4245105?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it

[StealthEnergiser]

From the above article

"He said discrepancies included the Norfolk coroner’s report finding 
no evidence of bite marks on Ms Witheridge’s body which contradicted the contents of the Thai pathologist’s report conducted 
immediately after her death."

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/thai_murder_trial_told_of_autopsy_discrepancies_in_reports_relating_to_hannah_witheridge_1_4245105?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it

[fireplay]

Thai murder trial told of autopsy discrepancies in reports relating to Hannah Witheridge

A British human rights activist working with the defence lawyers representing the two Burmese men accused of killing Hannah Witheridge, 23, and fellow British tourist David Miller, 24, from Jersey, said he had obtained a copy of the Norfolk coroner’s report and there were serious discrepancies.

Andy Hall, a renowned expert in migrant rights in Thailand, was giving evidence to the court in Koh Samui about the murders which took place on the neighbouring island of Koh Tao last September.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/thai_murder_trial_told_of_autopsy_discrepancies_in_reports_relating_to_hannah_witheridge_1_4245105?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it

Well no bite marks. A notable discrepancy but not the smoking gun I was expecting. I really hope the defense has a surprise revealation in the next 36 hours. The time is running out.

[loonodingle]

But Mr Hall told the court that the examination by the Norfolk coroner discovered .......... (REMOVED) contradicting the contents of the Thai pathologists report conducted immediately after her death.

The prosecution has alleged that her injuries are consistent ......... (REMOVED)

So whats the deal? Gunshot???

The deal is to imply a lot by saying a little.

My guess is that the very initial pathologist reports did not clearly state rape had been committed but subsequently it did, so it appears Mr. Hall is doing a bit of cherrypicking here.

No Wrong. The Thai pathologist said she was subjected to anal rape but no evidence found to substantiate this. No trace of semen and no injury