Forensic team to testify in Koh Tao murder trial

[BritTim]

But Mr Hall told the court that the examination by the Norfolk coroner discovered .......... (REMOVED) contradicting the contents of the Thai pathologists report conducted immediately after her death.

The prosecution has alleged that her injuries are consistent ......... (REMOVED)

So whats the deal? Gunshot???

The deal is to imply a lot by saying a little.

My guess is that the very initial pathologist reports did not clearly state rape had been committed but subsequently it did, so it appears Mr. Hall is doing a bit of cherrypicking here.

I have little doubt you are in communication with the prosecution, so what you are saying is probably true. It reminds me of the back and forth statements on semen samples. Originally, the RTP did not want to admit that any semen samples existed. Later, having determined that sexual assault was the only possible motive for the murders, they stated that they did have semen samples. Shortly thereafter, they even claimed they knew who this semen belonged to. There is real doubt as to whether there is any documentation to back the claims up, and (sadly) the semen samples no longer exist (they are used up). If semen samples ever really existed (which is not 100%) then the only logical reason they would no longer be available is that they were disposed of. What possible motive could there be for doing so?

[catsanddogs]

Human Rights Thailand accuse police of breaching legal rights in murder trial of Hannah Witheridge

07:56 24 September 2015

Sarah Yuen in Thailand

Human Rights Thailand has accused Thai police of breaching the legal rights of the two Burmese men on trial for the murder of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge, and deliberately leading the detainees during re-enactments of the crime.

Janjira Janpeau, a representative of the organisation, attacked police procedure while giving evidence in court on the island of Koh Samui.

She said it was abominable that both the 22 year-old suspects had been interrogated and made to participate in public and filmed re-enactments of the killing of 23 year-old Ms Witheridge, and fellow British tourist David Miller from Jersey, without any legal representation.

cont:

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/human_rights_thailand_accuse_police_of_breaching_legal_rights_in_murder_trial_of_hannah_witheridge_1_4245303?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it

from that article -

“We heard the translator ask one suspect: “What did you do with the hoe (the alleged murder weapon) afterwards?” The suspect says: “I don’t know”. The translator then says: “You put it under the tree didn’t you.” The suspect was clearly being led,” said the human rights activist.

thanks Stealth - out of likes.

[thailandchilli]

So on another Thai media website it goes into more details on some of the points in the UK autopsy report that has not been reported in the English press, probably because of the graphic nature and out of respect for the victims families as AH mentioned, but I can summarize without going into details that Hannah displayed no traces of rape. I'll get my Thai wife to translate it a bit better when she gets back tonight.

[thailandchilli]

Human Rights Thailand accuse police of breaching legal rights in murder trial of Hannah Witheridge

07:56 24 September 2015

Sarah Yuen in Thailand

Human Rights Thailand has accused Thai police of breaching the legal rights of the two Burmese men on trial for the murder of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge, and deliberately leading the detainees during re-enactments of the crime.

Janjira Janpeau, a representative of the organisation, attacked police procedure while giving evidence in court on the island of Koh Samui.

She said it was abominable that both the 22 year-old suspects had been interrogated and made to participate in public and filmed re-enactments of the killing of 23 year-old Ms Witheridge, and fellow British tourist David Miller from Jersey, without any legal representation.

cont:

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/human_rights_thailand_accuse_police_of_breaching_legal_rights_in_murder_trial_of_hannah_witheridge_1_4245303?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it

from that article -

“We heard the translator ask one suspect: “What did you do with the hoe (the alleged murder weapon) afterwards?” The suspect says: “I don’t know”. The translator then says: “You put it under the tree didn’t you.” The suspect was clearly being led,” said the human rights activist.

thanks Stealth - out of likes.

we're all outta likes I think

[catsanddogs]

So on another Thai media website it goes into more details on some of the points in the UK autopsy report that has not been reported in the English press, probably because of the graphic nature and out of respect for the victims families as AH mentioned, but I can summarize without going into details that Hannah displayed no traces of rape. I'll get my Thai wife to translate it a bit better when she gets back tonight.

Have never believed she was raped from the beginning. Another storyline manufactured by the RTP and prosecution no doubt to fit in with the colossal cover up.

[thailandchilli]

So on another Thai media website it goes into more details on some of the points in the UK autopsy report that has not been reported in the English press, probably because of the graphic nature and out of respect for the victims families as AH mentioned, but I can summarize without going into details that Hannah displayed no traces of rape. I'll get my Thai wife to translate it a bit better when she gets back tonight.

Have never believed she was raped from the beginning. Another storyline manufactured by the RTP and prosecution no doubt to fit in with the colossal cover up.

Correct I remember your posts on that many months back and you getting slated for even suggesting this

[catsanddogs]

Some paragraphs from https://www.dvb.no/news/thai-report-shoddy-and-unreliable-andy-hall-burma-myanar/57553

While unable to detail the nature of those differences, Hall confirmed they were in relation to injuries sustained during the sexual assault of Witheridge. Hall submitted more than 400 pages of the British autopsy report to the court.

“Crucial evidence in these intimate crimes is the clothes the female was wearing. Her skirt and her t-shirt have disappeared. Her underwear was found on the beach, but never tested. The Thai police still have her underwear.”

“The [expert] also noted how the police conducted the DNA testing on the two suspects. Usually the process is given a timeframe of about 20 days – 10 days if the case is urgent – but the police took their DNA samples on 2 October 2014, and the results were returned on 5 October 2014, claiming the samples matched the suspects. It is not at all believable,” Aung Myo Thant said.

[stephenterry]

So on another Thai media website it goes into more details on some of the points in the UK autopsy report that has not been reported in the English press, probably because of the graphic nature and out of respect for the victims families as AH mentioned, but I can summarize without going into details that Hannah displayed no traces of rape. I'll get my Thai wife to translate it a bit better when she gets back tonight.

Well that is the bombshell. No rape no semen, no suspects DNA. A cold-bloodied murder, instead, most likely carried out by a gang of enraged Thai thugs who attacked Hannah and David - with the victims trying to defend themselves with a hoe.

Explains why the DNA documentation has not been provided by the RTP. It's fictional.

[catsanddogs]

So on another Thai media website it goes into more details on some of the points in the UK autopsy report that has not been reported in the English press, probably because of the graphic nature and out of respect for the victims families as AH mentioned, but I can summarize without going into details that Hannah displayed no traces of rape. I'll get my Thai wife to translate it a bit better when she gets back tonight.

Well that is the bombshell. No rape no semen, no suspects DNA. A cold-bloodied murder, instead, most likely carried out by a gang of enraged Thai thugs who attacked Hannah and David - with the victims trying to defend themselves with a hoe.

Explains why the DNA documentation has not been provided by the RTP. It's fictional.

Maybe an attempted rape but she screamed so loudly that a policeman needed to shot her to shut her up. When are the French girls' statements that RTP took stating that they heard noises around the time of the murder going to be read out in court? The statements that McAnna said on his FB page said they heard the whole thing!

[thailandchilli]

So on another Thai media website it goes into more details on some of the points in the UK autopsy report that has not been reported in the English press, probably because of the graphic nature and out of respect for the victims families as AH mentioned, but I can summarize without going into details that Hannah displayed no traces of rape. I'll get my Thai wife to translate it a bit better when she gets back tonight.

Well that is the bombshell. No rape no semen, no suspects DNA. A cold-bloodied murder, instead, most likely carried out by a gang of enraged Thai thugs who attacked Hannah and David - with the victims trying to defend themselves with a hoe.

Explains why the DNA documentation has not been provided by the RTP. It's fictional.

Reminds me of that Thai motorbike gang of 4 who mugged 2 UK women the night before on the same stretch of beach, reported here

The women were robbed of their bags, cameras and iPhones by the group of four Thai men, according to James Isaacs, a British tourist and friend of the victims. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11111774/Thai-motorbike-gang-mugged-British-women-night-before-backpacker-couple-were-murdered-on-Koh-Tao-island.html

[Madaussie]

Fantastic work... comparing a walk on flip flops with a barefoot run.

Glad your expertise in gait analysis is here to point out the kindergarten errors made by one of the leading international organizations in this field.

He isn't an expert in Gait its Bait (Bate)

[stephenterry]

I'm beginning to understand how the defence are presenting their case. Bit by bit, they're plucking apart the RTP's case, point by point, to the extent yesterday of challenging the RTP to re-think their conclusions. This latest disclosure, re no signs of rape just blows apart the RTP's assertions that they have a semen match to the accused.

Without going into the various spins some posters might present, the UK autopsy report does offer reasonable doubt for the judges to conclude they cannot rely on a rape assertion to convict the B2 of that charge.

That leaves the murder charge. So far, not one scrap of suspects DNA found on the hoe. The running man is unlikely to be one of the B2. That evidence is discounted. What remains is the confession and the re-enactment. If the defence can pull that to pieces, by proving torture the B2 should be found not guilty of murder.

That's my current opinion.

[Madaussie]

So on another Thai media website it goes into more details on some of the points in the UK autopsy report that has not been reported in the English press, probably because of the graphic nature and out of respect for the victims families as AH mentioned, but I can summarize without going into details that Hannah displayed no traces of rape. I'll get my Thai wife to translate it a bit better when she gets back tonight.

Well that is the bombshell. No rape no semen, no suspects DNA. A cold-bloodied murder, instead, most likely carried out by a gang of enraged Thai thugs who attacked Hannah and David - with the victims trying to defend themselves with a hoe.

Explains why the DNA documentation has not been provided by the RTP. It's fictional.

Yep... Made up scene after they killed Hannah and David. Made to look like a rape/murder.. They have nothing. No DNA nothing.

[Trisha61]

I believe we have a certain poster on here that must have everyone on ignore apart from one or 2 buddies coz he sure as hell takes no notice of the facts presented by other posters and is unable to comprehend basic logic. An I don't care attitude that is echoed by the RTP from the beginning of the investigation right through to the end of the prosecution case. Get a conviction and disregard all else. Fair trial......whats that, their just a couple of migrant scum in their eyes. Human rights defenders an inconvenient distraction but ignored never the less. Evidence that contradicts their case, we don't care.

Pure evil in my opinion

the tactic here BTW is to make sure that factual posts get drowned out in the BS so when you see a post that is factual or has sensible input it is not a bad idea to keep it current by agreeing with it .........keep it alive by replying with a short sentence

Good advise, thank you for that smedly.

[fireplay]

Finally!!!! Thats what it is!!! There was no damn semen! Incredible. If this is the case...I just cannot see how the Thai officialdom will even allow that blatent of a lie ever be revealed. How can there be no proof of rape?

[Madaussie]

I'm beginning to understand how the defence are presenting their case. Bit by bit, they're plucking apart the RTP's case, point by point, to the extent yesterday of challenging the RTP to re-think their conclusions. This latest disclosure, re no signs of rape just blows apart the RTP's assertions that they have a semen match to the accused.

Without going into the various spins some posters might present, the UK autopsy report does offer reasonable doubt for the judges to conclude they cannot rely on a rape assertion to convict the B2 of that charge.

That leaves the murder charge. So far, not one scrap of suspects DNA found on the hoe. The running man is unlikely to be one of the B2. That evidence is discounted. What remains is the confession and the re-enactment. If the defence can pull that to pieces, by proving torture the B2 should be found not guilty of murder.

That's my current opinion.

Stephen they pulled the re enactment apart today:

"She said it was abominable that both the 22 year-old suspects had been interrogated and made to participate in public and filmed re-enactments of the killing of 23 year-old Ms Witheridge, and fellow British tourist David Miller from Jersey, without any legal representation"

She also said it was clear from the video of one of the re-enactments, played to her in court, that the defendant was being told what to say.

“We heard the translator ask one suspect: “What did you do with the hoe (the alleged murder weapon) afterwards?” The suspect says: “I don’t know”. The translator then says: “You put it under the tree didn’t you.” The suspect was clearly being led,” said the human rights activist.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/human_rights_thailand_accuse_police_of_breaching_legal_rights_in_murder_trial_of_hannah_witheridge_1_4245303?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it

[stephenterry]

So on another Thai media website it goes into more details on some of the points in the UK autopsy report that has not been reported in the English press, probably because of the graphic nature and out of respect for the victims families as AH mentioned, but I can summarize without going into details that Hannah displayed no traces of rape. I'll get my Thai wife to translate it a bit better when she gets back tonight.

Well that is the bombshell. No rape no semen, no suspects DNA. A cold-bloodied murder, instead, most likely carried out by a gang of enraged Thai thugs who attacked Hannah and David - with the victims trying to defend themselves with a hoe.

Explains why the DNA documentation has not been provided by the RTP. It's fictional.

Reminds me of that Thai motorbike gang of 4 who mugged 2 UK women the night before on the same stretch of beach, reported here

The women were robbed of their bags, cameras and iPhones by the group of four Thai men, according to James Isaacs, a British tourist and friend of the victims. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11111774/Thai-motorbike-gang-mugged-British-women-night-before-backpacker-couple-were-murdered-on-Koh-Tao-island.html

Quite so. And I believe that the murderous assault the following night was not a coincidence.

[Aj Mick]

Stealth, I admire your optimism but it's not realistic. No heads will roll, no face will be lost, and no changes will be made. They couldn't care less about what we think, it's all about Thailand.

what face ? there is no face left, the general populous are so ashamed of this debacle they are not even covering it in national/local news, 60 odd million people in this nation are holding their head in shame hoping it will just go away

I'd say most of those 60 million don't give a rat's. They just want to get on with their lives.

I'd say most of those 60 million don't give a rat's because they don't know. Despite the Thai press showing plenty of interest in the murder and the the investigation, and even the opening of the trial, it has been strangely silent on the proceedings since……

Why so?

Gore and crime are staples in the popular Thai language papers. If it involves foreigners, all the better. I'd have thought they would have been rather keen to cover this story.

[catsanddogs]

I'm beginning to understand how the defence are presenting their case. Bit by bit, they're plucking apart the RTP's case, point by point, to the extent yesterday of challenging the RTP to re-think their conclusions. This latest disclosure, re no signs of rape just blows apart the RTP's assertions that they have a semen match to the accused.

Without going into the various spins some posters might present, the UK autopsy report does offer reasonable doubt for the judges to conclude they cannot rely on a rape assertion to convict the B2 of that charge.

That leaves the murder charge. So far, not one scrap of suspects DNA found on the hoe. The running man is unlikely to be one of the B2. That evidence is discounted. What remains is the confession and the re-enactment. If the defence can pull that to pieces, by proving torture the B2 should be found not guilty of murder.

That's my current opinion.

You could be right ST.

'I want to show up every mistake one at a time' said Chomphuchat.'

[smedly]

So on another Thai media website it goes into more details on some of the points in the UK autopsy report that has not been reported in the English press, probably because of the graphic nature and out of respect for the victims families as AH mentioned, but I can summarize without going into details that Hannah displayed no traces of rape. I'll get my Thai wife to translate it a bit better when she gets back tonight.

Well that is the bombshell. No rape no semen, no suspects DNA. A cold-bloodied murder, instead, most likely carried out by a gang of enraged Thai thugs who attacked Hannah and David - with the victims trying to defend themselves with a hoe.

Explains why the DNA documentation has not been provided by the RTP. It's fictional.

what this effectively does is remove motive, if there was no rape then it makes the case against B2 even more rediculous, what it does however is place focus on the supposed altercation that took place in AC bar as a possible motive, again as I pointed out earlier - the last place the victims where seen is normally the focus of any murder investigation and uncovering a motive is primary.

I have always thought after seeing the pictures of the victims body that it looked staged - now I am certain

It would appear that the reason the dna evidense the police reported as having and was used up never existed - they never actually had it in the fist place, rather damming if you ask me and another nail in the coffin of the prosecutions rediculous case, when is this farce going to end

[catsanddogs]

Stealth, I admire your optimism but it's not realistic. No heads will roll, no face will be lost, and no changes will be made. They couldn't care less about what we think, it's all about Thailand.

what face ? there is no face left, the general populous are so ashamed of this debacle they are not even covering it in national/local news, 60 odd million people in this nation are holding their head in shame hoping it will just go away

I'd say most of those 60 million don't give a rat's. They just want to get on with their lives.

I'd say most of those 60 million don't give a rat's because they don't know. Despite the Thai press showing plenty of interest in the murder and the the investigation, and even the opening of the trial, it has been strangely silent on the proceedings since……

Why so?

Gore and crime are staples in the popular Thai language papers. If it involves foreigners, all the better. I'd have thought they would have been rather keen to cover this story.

From what I've seen the past few days the Thai press are giving it more coverage.

[stephenterry]

I'm beginning to understand how the defence are presenting their case. Bit by bit, they're plucking apart the RTP's case, point by point, to the extent yesterday of challenging the RTP to re-think their conclusions. This latest disclosure, re no signs of rape just blows apart the RTP's assertions that they have a semen match to the accused.

Without going into the various spins some posters might present, the UK autopsy report does offer reasonable doubt for the judges to conclude they cannot rely on a rape assertion to convict the B2 of that charge.

That leaves the murder charge. So far, not one scrap of suspects DNA found on the hoe. The running man is unlikely to be one of the B2. That evidence is discounted. What remains is the confession and the re-enactment. If the defence can pull that to pieces, by proving torture the B2 should be found not guilty of murder.

That's my current opinion.

Stephen they pulled the re enactment apart today:

"She said it was abominable that both the 22 year-old suspects had been interrogated and made to participate in public and filmed re-enactments of the killing of 23 year-old Ms Witheridge, and fellow British tourist David Miller from Jersey, without any legal representation"

She also said it was clear from the video of one of the re-enactments, played to her in court, that the defendant was being told what to say.

“We heard the translator ask one suspect: “What did you do with the hoe (the alleged murder weapon) afterwards?” The suspect says: “I don’t know”. The translator then says: “You put it under the tree didn’t you.” The suspect was clearly being led,” said the human rights activist.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/human_rights_thailand_accuse_police_of_breaching_legal_rights_in_murder_trial_of_hannah_witheridge_1_4245303?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it

i understand it is illegal under Thai law for the RTP to lead the suspects. This is proof of outside interference. Should have been brought up when the initial video was presented to the court by the nice, pleasant, important, police officer.

[StealthEnergiser]

Surely the defence and human rights can do something about this.

"The defence tentatively had until Friday to wrap up its case, but chief lawyer Nakhon Chomphupat said there were problems convincing witnesses to testify as some feared retribution."

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/09/24/uk-thailand-britain-murders-idUKKCN0RO0HE20150924

[catsanddogs]

A timely reminder from the Guardian just over one month after the murders -

There are several counter theories circulating on Koh Tao about who killed Witheridge and Miller. Most centre around men associated with a dominant Thai family on the island, one of several that run dive schools, resorts and bars. A version recounted repeatedly - without any evidence - is that Witheridge had an argument with one of them at a beachside bar run by the family, shortly before the killings.

The associated media coverage has seen Koh Tao characterised as mafia-run. One English woman, who has lived in the area for many years, says the term is misleading: “The mafia here aren’t the sort who carry guns in violin cases, or knock on doors extorting people. They’re the families that go back for generations, and who ran the islands before the police even got here.”

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/23/briton-thailand-murder-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-mystery-mafia-fear

[fritzzz25]

Is the person who claims to be a "gait expert" going to post their credentials? And what court accepted their testimony to declared an expert? I think that when making such statements, one should be prepared to provide the facts.

[stephenterry]

So on another Thai media website it goes into more details on some of the points in the UK autopsy report that has not been reported in the English press, probably because of the graphic nature and out of respect for the victims families as AH mentioned, but I can summarize without going into details that Hannah displayed no traces of rape. I'll get my Thai wife to translate it a bit better when she gets back tonight.

Well that is the bombshell. No rape no semen, no suspects DNA. A cold-bloodied murder, instead, most likely carried out by a gang of enraged Thai thugs who attacked Hannah and David - with the victims trying to defend themselves with a hoe.

Explains why the DNA documentation has not been provided by the RTP. It's fictional.

what this effectively does is remove motive, if there was no rape then it makes the case against B2 even more rediculous, what it does however is place focus on the supposed altercation that took place in AC bar as a possible motive, again as I pointed out earlier - the last place the victims where seen is normally the focus of any murder investigation and uncovering a motive is primary.

I have always thought after seeing the pictures of the victims body that it looked staged - now I am certain

It would appear that the reason the dna evidense the police reported as having and was used up never existed - they never actually had it in the fist place, rather damming if you ask me and another nail in the coffin of the prosecutions rediculous case, when is this farce going to end

The motivation could have been assault and robbery as occurred the previous night. Too much of a coincidence to ignore. However, if there was an argument in the AC bar, it could have prompted the attackers to pin-point their next victim.

Speculation - but I agree it should remove all lingering doubts that the B2 were involved. I hope that the world's media broadcast these findings world-wide. Nothing I hope for more than seeing the RTP in this investigation get their just desserts - which at best seems to be reassigned to inactive posts. Better than nothing, and one step forward.

[joebrown]

Stealth, I admire your optimism but it's not realistic. No heads will roll, no face will be lost, and no changes will be made. They couldn't care less about what we think, it's all about Thailand.

what face ? there is no face left, the general populous are so ashamed of this debacle they are not even covering it in national/local news, 60 odd million people in this nation are holding their head in shame hoping it will just go away

I'd say most of those 60 million don't give a rat's. They just want to get on with their lives.

I'd say most of those 60 million don't give a rat's because they don't know. Despite the Thai press showing plenty of interest in the murder and the the investigation, and even the opening of the trial, it has been strangely silent on the proceedings since……

Why so?

Gore and crime are staples in the popular Thai language papers. If it involves foreigners, all the better. I'd have thought they would have been rather keen to cover this story.

Agree 100% Aj. I bet the national 'gore & all' newspapers are a bit miffed by the orders from the PM to not report any news that might be damaging to the Thai image (image = tourists & baht).

I watched one of the PM's Friday night sketches recently, when he thanked the newspapers for 'toeing the line'. Sadly for the editors such subservience doesn't sell copy, so they'll just have to be satisfied with their boss's praise, for the time being.

[metisdead]

Troll posts have been removed.

[Madaussie]

Is the person who claims to be a "gait expert" going to post their credentials? And what court accepted their testimony to declared an expert? I think that when making such statements, one should be prepared to provide the facts.

He said Bait (bate)

[catsanddogs]

So on another Thai media website it goes into more details on some of the points in the UK autopsy report that has not been reported in the English press, probably because of the graphic nature and out of respect for the victims families as AH mentioned, but I can summarize without going into details that Hannah displayed no traces of rape. I'll get my Thai wife to translate it a bit better when she gets back tonight.

Well that is the bombshell. No rape no semen, no suspects DNA. A cold-bloodied murder, instead, most likely carried out by a gang of enraged Thai thugs who attacked Hannah and David - with the victims trying to defend themselves with a hoe.

Explains why the DNA documentation has not been provided by the RTP. It's fictional.

what this effectively does is remove motive, if there was no rape then it makes the case against B2 even more rediculous, what it does however is place focus on the supposed altercation that took place in AC bar as a possible motive, again as I pointed out earlier - the last place the victims where seen is normally the focus of any murder investigation and uncovering a motive is primary.

I have always thought after seeing the pictures of the victims body that it looked staged - now I am certain

It would appear that the reason the dna evidense the police reported as having and was used up never existed - they never actually had it in the fist place, rather damming if you ask me and another nail in the coffin of the prosecutions rediculous case, when is this farce going to end

The motivation could have been assault and robbery as occurred the previous night. Too much of a coincidence to ignore. However, if there was an argument in the AC bar, it could have prompted the attackers to pin-point their next victim.

Speculation - but I agree it should remove all lingering doubts that the B2 were involved. I hope that the world's media broadcast these findings world-wide. Nothing I hope for more than seeing the RTP in this investigation get their just desserts - which at best seems to be reassigned to inactive posts. Better than nothing, and one step forward.

Nothing I hope for more than seeing the investigation re-opened by an honest and unrewarded police force or a private investigation to get the men from hell put down that have made so many innocent people suffer (and continue to!).