properperson Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 I perceive the Benelli quality to be fine for this level of bike , and its intended use . It may be over simplifying things to say "up to you" , but more and more people are buying bikes that arent Honda . Price is a reason for some , true . If people , after looking at all the information , specifications , ride reports and , yes , price , still buy a Honda , then that may well be the right bike for their needs and budget . End of the day - enjoy whatever your riding . Sums up biking really . but Jeff, you've skipped one very important issue - resale value.... so you've got 2 guys, one buys a CB300F and the other buys a Benelli TNT 300 - both similar bikes in every way, including price.... 2 years down the line with say 20,000km on the clock.... Which will be easier to sell and which one will have held it's value the best.... Its bound to be the Honda..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMac Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Jeff skipped that the Benelli from 1911 is not the Chinese Benelli/Keeway it is today. They just bought a dormant company name and revived it. Zombie brand one may say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllanB Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Jeff skipped that the Benelli from 1911 is not the Chinese Benelli/Keeway it is today. They just bought a dormant company name and revived it. Zombie brand one may say ....and that the Honda in the same class is a 100% Thai product with a Honda sticker on it. The Benelli company is still very active in Italy, with full design, R & D and SOA manufacturing plant, so hardly a zombie brand. Unlike MG in China which is a Jizwas with an MG badge on it. IMO Benelli are also a good step up in terms of style and sound over the Thai bikes, performance wise, well at 250cc they aren't really, any of them. So how the bike makes you feel is all the more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMac Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Yeah, I'm not generally negative about it. And it is true, competition is good. We have seen that with Kawasaki and the reduced prices for big bikes, which are now on a reasonable level for most brands. But, there needs to be a lot of more water going down all the dried out rivers which cause floods in BKK right now . So far I haven't seen a single one of these bikes on the road, neither in Chiang Mai nor in Bangkok. So experiences and feedback are certainly limited given the low number of buyers. But Keeway (remember, same company) did a lot to build a bad reputation. Looking at the latter I'd rather play safe and spend money for a Honda (or Kawasaki in my case) rather than play guinea pig for the Chinese. Not even looking at resales value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm jeff Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 pp , didnt skip it , the point wasnt raised . Good point . Historically , lesser know bikes have sold slower , and for less . Thats now changing . May i add some figures to your example . Say both bikes are put up for sale in 2 years / 20,000KM . How much do we estimate the Honda will be up for sale at ?. Lets say its 80,000 - 90,000 . does that sound about right ?. Now i agree the Benelli could well be less , perhaps 10K less ?. Does that sound about right ?. So now ( and im assuming none of us here will become destitute overnight at the extra 10K ) we have to put a value on the pleasure the bike gave us for the 20,000KM . For me (and it may not be for you / everyone) the 39BHP twin cylinder Benelli , with the USD suspension , twin petal brakes and Italian design i perceive as so much better , the extra 10K would provide far more pleasure every time i looked at , and rode, the Benelli . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMac Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Well, the Chinese got much better (much!!!) at electronics over the last 5....10 years. I have no doubts that will continue in other sectors. They are not up to international standards when it comes to vehicles (incl. trains) yet, but that will change... If you like the Benelli, nothing wrong with it. But there's more to it than a test ride. General quality, reliability, service, etc. These are all open points that can only be answered over time. So let's hope it becomes a fair competitor. Good for everybody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm jeff Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 MM , to an extent , i see your point . I must correct you over the claim Benelli and Keeway are the same however . They arent . They happen to be owned by the same "parent" company , QJ . And by this i mean no offence to either company or their products . There is a marketing link-up though , and that seems to cause this confusion . As i said , VW / Audi Group ( VAG ) own many companies , but a Golf sure aint no Diablo ! . And yes , we need more feedback , now that the doomsayers have gone quiet . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokerkid Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) I perceive the Benelli quality to be fine for this level of bike , and its intended use . It may be over simplifying things to say "up to you" , but more and more people are buying bikes that arent Honda . Price is a reason for some , true . If people , after looking at all the information , specifications , ride reports and , yes , price , still buy a Honda , then that may well be the right bike for their needs and budget . End of the day - enjoy whatever your riding . Sums up biking really . but Jeff, you've skipped one very important issue - resale value.... so you've got 2 guys, one buys a CB300F and the other buys a Benelli TNT 300 - both similar bikes in every way, including price.... 2 years down the line with say 20,000km on the clock.... Which will be easier to sell and which one will have held it's value the best.... Its bound to be the Honda..... Have You seen the second hand prices of honda bikes these days ? Can pick up a honda cbr 250 for about 50-60k. I doubt that a Benelli will depreciate much faster, and even if it would still not that much more. But if you are so worried about money I think its best you just buy a second hand honda wave. I can remember talking to LL2 a year or 2 ago about the second hand value of the budget Honda's and i wish he was still here on the board to see him eat his words. Edited October 8, 2015 by pokerkid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Grumpy Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I perceive the Benelli quality to be fine for this level of bike , and its intended use . It may be over simplifying things to say "up to you" , but more and more people are buying bikes that arent Honda . Price is a reason for some , true . If people , after looking at all the information , specifications , ride reports and , yes , price , still buy a Honda , then that may well be the right bike for their needs and budget . End of the day - enjoy whatever your riding . Sums up biking really . but Jeff, you've skipped one very important issue - resale value.... so you've got 2 guys, one buys a CB300F and the other buys a Benelli TNT 300 - both similar bikes in every way, including price.... 2 years down the line with say 20,000km on the clock.... Which will be easier to sell and which one will have held it's value the best.... Its bound to be the Honda..... You obviously haven't seen the prices of used Honda CBR 250's, 286's and 471's on Thai websites. Who buys a bike, a small cheap bike at that, based on the possible 'resale value'? Sad., really. Not someone interested in riding, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bramds Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I think it's funny how people always talk about the resale when they have just bought a bike. The last thing I think about when riding a new bike, is selling it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokerkid Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I think it's funny how people always talk about the resale when they have just bought a bike. The last thing I think about when riding a new bike, is selling it. if you buy a bike with your heart yes, they are probably just commuters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Issanman Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Well, what you are saying is like don't buy a Hilux but a Tata. Why would anyone do that? I believe Benelli may, perhaps, become as famous as Keeway. A bike that looks good, is cheap, and everybody who bought one complains about, and which is actually the same sh*t. I bought a Keeway TXM200 over two years ago, so I pay attention to the threads about Keeway bikes. I don't remember seeing any real complaints about them and I have no complaints about mine. You should actually go to look at one up close and you will see they are not made cheaply. Some of us actually own the bikes that you hate. I have seen the Benelli bikes up close and the finish on them is as good, if not better, than any Japanese bike made in Thailand. Based on my Keeway experience, I would not be afraid to buy a Benelli over a Thai-built Honda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllanB Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 This a slight digression, but has a point here, I have been watching a lot of Youtube videos on the Lifan 200gy-5, a bike that interests me and a lot of them are from Russia. Now speaking from a little experience the Ruskies generally don't pussyfoot around when it comes to using machines like these and I saw nothing break on any of these little bikes on any of the vids...Although they did get stuck quite a lot. On the other hand just this morning I watched yet another video featuring BMW's driving mostly on roads to Mongolia and one these expensive bikes gave up the ghost when the rear wheel just fell to bits. I remember too Boreman and the Jock had quite a few problems with their Beamers and the two guys on brand new KTMs both had problems which resulted on one being trucked 2000km for repairs. So this Chinese built reliability problem is perhaps more perceived than real. Sure some of the early stuff may have been crappy, as it was with the Japs, Taiwanese and everyone else, but things change, plus everyone is now using the same technology in manufacture. In the early days "Made in Taiwan" and "Jap Crap" were comedian's bread and butter lines for a laugh, not any more though, at least when it comes to bikes and motorbikes respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard-BKK Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 The problem with people who say Chinese stuff is bad is, that they have no base to provide evidence. Sure everybody can provide a picture of a no-name Chinese motorcycle with something wrong… But try to do it more specific, lets compare the problems with the Chinese 'brands' sold in Thailand, which have models sold all over the world and compare the amount of lets say broken frame with the amount of complains we can find on the Thaivisa forum about people complaining about a broken frame with a Kawasaki, Honda or Suzuki. I cannot remember anybody complaining about a Suzuki, but I'm sure that 2 or more people on Thaivisa complained about a Kawasaki and surely 1 person had a problem with a Honda CRF250L with a broken frame... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokerkid Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Well, what you are saying is like don't buy a Hilux but a Tata. Why would anyone do that? I believe Benelli may, perhaps, become as famous as Keeway. A bike that looks good, is cheap, and everybody who bought one complains about, and which is actually the same sh*t. I bought a Keeway TXM200 over two years ago, so I pay attention to the threads about Keeway bikes. I don't remember seeing any real complaints about them and I have no complaints about mine. You should actually go to look at one up close and you will see they are not made cheaply. Some of us actually own the bikes that you hate. I have seen the Benelli bikes up close and the finish on them is as good, if not better, than any Japanese bike made in Thailand. Based on my Keeway experience, I would not be afraid to buy a Benelli over a Thai-built Honda. haters will be haters no matter what Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMac Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I know a handful of people who have or used to have a Keeway. None of them would touch that brand again. Bad quality, bad or non existing service. Looks good, it's cheap. Buy banana, get monkey. Up to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard-BKK Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I know a handful of people who have or used to have a Keeway. None of them would touch that brand again. Bad quality, bad or non existing service. Looks good, it's cheap. Buy banana, get monkey. Up to you Stop talking, show facts - pictures of broken frames? I can show you a good amount of pictures on Thaivisa of Kawasaki and Honda... You can show pictures of any Keeway, Benelli or Lifan from around the world... is it so difficult or you just tell BS??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMac Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Richard, we all know you are commercially involved. So you have the right to your opinion. You can search the Interwebs for experience and opinion of people with and about the Keeway brand. But I'm sure you know all this already. Or as Andrew Zimmern would say: "If it looks good, drive it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllanB Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Whether Richard is commercially involved or not, he has a point, just slagging something off without specific evidence is not on. The subject is the Benelli, we know about this bike's main competitor and the sad story of this Honda CB300 (which is current) and to me it is absolutely devastating. That's not a few minor ancillaries breaking off, so where are the stories about the bad Benellis, this is a world wide bike too? Or if you are picking on Keyways where are they, a couple of examples would help? The whole point of a forum is to talk about experiences, so that we can make better decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard-BKK Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Richard, we all know you are commercially involved. So you have the right to your opinion. You can search the Interwebs for experience and opinion of people with and about the Keeway brand. But I'm sure you know all this already. Or as Andrew Zimmern would say: "If it looks good, drive it" I'm not commercial involved with any Chinese motorcycle manufacturer at the moment, like everybody else show us the truth… I can show pictures of Kawasaki and Honda owners with broken frames who complained with pictures on Thaivisa. So why can you not show us some Keeway (the models in Thailand are sold in more than 80 countries), or a Benelli with a frame problem (the models sold in Thailand are sold in even more countries), or try Lifan – the Lifan models sold in Thailand are sold in almost every country in the world… clearly somebody would have made a picture and posted it online? How much people use Thaivisa? On this moment Thaivisa has just under 6000 people online, and say that the total user base is about 10 times bigger, what is about 60,000 people who only a fraction own a motorcycle we can find actual a good amount of people who complain about a Honda or Kawasaki motorcycle (with picture evidence), from which 4 actual having a problem with a broken frame. So with Billions of people around the world you should at least find some pictures of some Lifan, Keeway or even Benelli's with a broken frame… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taninthai Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 The problem with people who say Chinese stuff is bad is, that they have no base to provide evidence. Sure everybody can provide a picture of a no-name Chinese motorcycle with something wrong But try to do it more specific, lets compare the problems with the Chinese 'brands' sold in Thailand, which have models sold all over the world and compare the amount of lets say broken frame with the amount of complains we can find on the Thaivisa forum about people complaining about a broken frame with a Kawasaki, Honda or Suzuki. I cannot remember anybody complaining about a Suzuki, but I'm sure that 2 or more people on Thaivisa complained about a Kawasaki and surely 1 person had a problem with a Honda CRF250L with a broken frame... maybe because it's young guys buying the klx/crf and they are actually using them off road jumps and wheelies etc etc where as it seems to be older guys buying these budget bikes uso g them to potter around town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMac Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 LOL, who said Keeway had broken frames? It's getting funny here now. As I said, if you like it, buy it. I wont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllanB Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 The problem with people who say Chinese stuff is bad is, that they have no base to provide evidence. Sure everybody can provide a picture of a no-name Chinese motorcycle with something wrong But try to do it more specific, lets compare the problems with the Chinese 'brands' sold in Thailand, which have models sold all over the world and compare the amount of lets say broken frame with the amount of complains we can find on the Thaivisa forum about people complaining about a broken frame with a Kawasaki, Honda or Suzuki. I cannot remember anybody complaining about a Suzuki, but I'm sure that 2 or more people on Thaivisa complained about a Kawasaki and surely 1 person had a problem with a Honda CRF250L with a broken frame... maybe because it's young guys buying the klx/crf and they are actually using them off road jumps and wheelies etc etc where as it seems to be older guys buying these budget bikes uso g them to potter around town. Absolutely....... .....however, the guy with the Honda CB300 wasn't doing anything like that when his engine went to heaven...and neither was I on my Phantom when that went Caboom!... Coincidence though, 2 Thai built bikes both wearing Honda badges. Now my Jap built NV400 is a different animal altogether and maybe that is the key here. You have to judge each on their own merits. The Brits made the Morris Marina and they also make most of the F1 cars...and most of the US raced Indycars too. I dare say the Chinese are much the same in the variation of their product quality today. But one thing is for sure, progress is on it's way...they have a billion mouths to feed over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard-BKK Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 The problem with people who say Chinese stuff is bad is, that they have no base to provide evidence. Sure everybody can provide a picture of a no-name Chinese motorcycle with something wrong But try to do it more specific, lets compare the problems with the Chinese 'brands' sold in Thailand, which have models sold all over the world and compare the amount of lets say broken frame with the amount of complains we can find on the Thaivisa forum about people complaining about a broken frame with a Kawasaki, Honda or Suzuki. I cannot remember anybody complaining about a Suzuki, but I'm sure that 2 or more people on Thaivisa complained about a Kawasaki and surely 1 person had a problem with a Honda CRF250L with a broken frame... maybe because it's young guys buying the klx/crf and they are actually using them off road jumps and wheelies etc etc where as it seems to be older guys buying these budget bikes uso g them to potter around town. You should look at a few of the Youtube video's about Russians riding a Lifan LF200GY-5 off-road, some stunts I will not even do on a real MX/Motorcross bike. Actually I know that some people hurt the Lifan or Keeway 'enduro' style motorcycles sold in Thailand more, as they cheap and people care less if it's damaged…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taninthai Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 ^ Don't really know where you are going with this out of the millions of Kara,Honda,Suzuki sold of coarse some are gonna have problems same as anything ,are you trying to say out of the few hundred bennilli,Logan or keeway sold none of them have problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm jeff Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 pokerkid , you are correct that people are now asking 50K for their Honda,s , but this may be on the back of the known problems with the 250 / 300 engines . People are getting rid of them , quick and cheap . Some are taking the chance , and keeping the bikes , and their fingers crossed. I dont know if the Benelli will depreciate more or less than the Honda , but IF it costs 10K more over the time of ownership , then that is simply the small cost of riding a bike with 25/30% more power from the 300cc twin cylinder engine , along with its fancy wheels , brakes , susspension and Italian style . A small price to pay . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taninthai Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 ;^ Great news them prices as my Honda 250 was so reliable I'm probably gonna buy another come end of year coupled with the exchange rate at a 5 year high in my favour these 2nd hand bikes are proper bargains in fact if you get the right deal you can even sell them on a year down the line for a similuar price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm jeff Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 At 50K they could make cheap runabouts , or even a base for a special project , however , i believe Honda has yet to identify the problem areas of this engine , so if its one of the ones that lets go , it wont be a cheap run around when a new engine and gearbox is required. Just depends if you want to take that chance or not . Your Honda has been OK hasnt it. If you fancy a gamble , you could start buying up all the "cheapies" and sell on when they become collectable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taninthai Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 What 5 bikes gone wrong out of millions sold world wide ,I really don't think I have anything to worry about it's a Honda after all .I would love to pick one up for 50k but in real life the Honda 250 I am after are still selling g for around 90k .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Grumpy Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) People are on about a Benelli depreciating. I just saw a CBR500 for 123k baht, many are 129k baht. Not far off 50% depreciation in what, was it 3 years ago they came out? Maybe not even. haha. Wow. Mighty Honda keeping their value. People who buy small cheap bikes and choose them on what they predict the % of depreciation will be over 5 years are sad anyway. Edited October 8, 2015 by Happy Grumpy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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