Israeli army shoots two Palestinian teenagers dead

[Jingthing]

I'm pretty hawkish on dealing with Palestinian terrorism, enough is enough, including against kids throwing rocks ... rocks can and do kill ... but personally I wish the IDF would use more restraint on using lethal force against rock throwing. Surely there must be non-lethal weapons they can use more often and what ever happened to that tactic of spraying rioters with feces smelling stuff ... not nice but better than dying.

Obviously in the heat of conflict, horrible things will always happen and sometimes the rock throwers also are throwing Molotov cocktails, etc. But less dead kids on either side, the better.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Jingthing

[Steely Dan]

I'm pretty hawkish on dealing with Palestinian terrorism, enough is enough, including against kids throwing rocks ... rocks can and do kill ... but personally I wish the IDF would use more restraint on using lethal force against rock throwing. Surely there must be non-lethal weapons they can use more often and what ever happened to that tactic of spraying rioters with feces smelling stuff ... not nice but better than dying.

Obviously in the heat of conflict, horrible things will always happen and sometimes the rock throwers also are throwing Molotov cocktails, etc. But less dead kids on either side, the better.

Stones do kill so stone throwers know the risk they are taking, especially after Israel upped the ante.

In related news Israel is to expedite the demolition of the homes of terrorists. Great news as far as I'm concerned.

http://m.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Israel-to-fast-track-demolitions-of-Palestinian-homes-Netanyahu-says-420044?utm_source=dlvr.it

[Jingthing]

Yes I agree throw stones especially now and you know what the consequences might be. But when they get killed it plays into Palestinian propaganda about Israel brutality ... and many of them and their families celebrate the ideology of Islamist martyrdom especially in light of the Mosque controversy. So killing them is doing their movement a favor. I don't want to do terrorists ANY favors. Now in cases where terrorists have actually murdered and are fleeing or fighting the authorities ... that's different in terms of restraint.

That said, it's clear to me that Israel IS showing large levels of restraint already or there would be a lot more dead rock throwers, etc. So not expecting perfection in such a conflict and really nobody should expect that.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Jingthing

[dexterm]

No point of trying to find "Reasoning" or solace in an unreasonable situation.

Too many with different opinions and unreachable solutions, especially among those not personally involved, fanatical religious zealots, extremists, and uneducated misdirected rebellious youths.

No country in the "Western" world ( right or wrong ) would put up with what Israel has dealt with for so many years...

Any other entity especially or of the Muslim world, would have taken a rake to the area long ago. Not allowing the opportunity for anyone to utter a squeak.

Other middle east Muslim countries would have bombed, poisoned, beheaded their own populace, let alone another from different house (Shiite/Sunni) as evident with what's happened in Syria, Iraq, Libya, Egypt.

It is of "Political" convenience, resentment, fanatical religious intolerance and pure hate against the Jewish populace that continues.

The problem for Israel is that it pretends to be an enlightened democratic country, and there are many Israelis who are indeed enlightened and humane, even though the whole state is based on the racist supremacist principle of Zionism. You apparently would prefer it to be more like other more repressive regimes in the Middle East.

The trouble is there are more in the current Israeli cabinet who think like you. Iron fist, oppression. let's see some blood spilt. That'll teach em.

You can't have it both ways if you want to be accepted as a modern civilized democracy..

[Jingthing]

That is pretty much what happened in post apartheid South Africa, That part of the world now has a huge crime rate. It is okay to be racist when those with whom you actually have a problem actually deserve it.

Steely, your post rate has increased several fold is that renewed interest or have you taken a job with the tribe?

Coming from a self admitted anti-Jewish racist, that's rich. It's not cool, dude, to accuse people of being paid posters.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Jingthing

[Pakboong]

I'm pretty hawkish on dealing with Palestinian terrorism, enough is enough, including against kids throwing rocks ... rocks can and do kill ... but personally I wish the IDF would use more restraint on using lethal force against rock throwing. Surely there must be non-lethal weapons they can use more often and what ever happened to that tactic of spraying rioters with feces smelling stuff ... not nice but better than dying.

Obviously in the heat of conflict, horrible things will always happen and sometimes the rock throwers also are throwing Molotov cocktails, etc. But less dead kids on either side, the better.

Stones do kill so stone throwers know the risk they are taking, especially after Israel upped the ante.

In related news Israel is to expedite the demolition of the homes of terrorists. Great news as far as I'm concerned.

http://m.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Israel-to-fast-track-demolitions-of-Palestinian-homes-Netanyahu-says-420044?utm_source=dlvr.it

The situation has gotten so desperate that they just don't care.

[ggold]

It isn't murder. Many people have been stoned to death and when a group of people are stoning others...

Start throwing stones at me and see how long you last. I live in a place where it's lawful for me to use deadly force to protect myself from "serious bodily injury or death".

I believe that's right and just and so does the law.

If someone doesn't want me to put one right between his eyes he can simply refrain from throwing stones at me.

Cheers.

Simple. The IDF and Israeli squatters wouldn't get stones thrown at them if they ended their occupation of 4.5 million Palestinians and cleared off back behind the safety of the 1967 borders that the Palestinians are willing to recognize. You sorta feel this is a problem of Israel's own making. They hold all the cards to resolve it....IF they really wanted to.

The result of Israel unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza demonstrates perfectly the so called 'safety' of any borders. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that If in years to come Israel were to withdraw to the '67 borders, or some close approximation to them it would not be long before more rockets, shootings and stone throwing occurred within said borders. By that time a new generation of esteemed members would be defending Palestinian terror and arguing piously that the state of Israel had no right to exist and the original recognition of Israel by the U.N should be reversed.

It would not be necessary. In decades to come Israeli Arabs will have outbred Israeli Jews, and will marry Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. It will inevitably be a one state solution....that's how transmigrations naturally happen. There will be no more huge 20th century type influxes of Jews into Palestine into a war zone...well, not many sane ones anyway.

In fact I thought that might be the bombshell news that Abbas threatened to drop last week at the UN. Oslo Peace Accords are dead..no progress on a Palestinian state after 22 years of stalling and expansion by Israel, so we may as well go for a one state solution, and practise civil disobedience until we get equal citizenship rights.

Go ahead, Israel, manage this mess all by yourselves without asking the PA to do your dirty work policing for you. And a fine start they have made in the OP, the IDF wearing body armor and helmets firing live amunition to murder a 13 year old child.

The pressure will come from Europe. They can hardly cope with a few hundred thousand Syrians, so they certainly dont want a further 4.5 million Palestinian refugees if Netanyahu is planning to use his present stunt as a forerunner for another wave of ethnic cleansing.

So I think the Palestinians are there to stay. Question is what is Israel going to do about their growing numbers?

So carry on shooting yourself and your future in the foot Israel. Isn't anyone in Israel far sighted enough to think these things through?

The only people shooting themselves in the foot is the arabs. Or had you missed that? The pressure from the EU will evaporate as you say they will have their own problems with migrants invading their countries.

And now with Syria taking centre stage, The Palestinians may just become irrelevant. Yet again Abbas has missed calculated, now his own people hate him, he may not be able to stop a third intifada, will his security teams listen to him? I'm waiting to see Palestinian kill Palestinian for who takes control.

[Jingthing]

Not what you said before. So you're doing damage control ... understandable.

[ZeldasCavern]

No point of trying to find "Reasoning" or solace in an unreasonable situation.

Too many with different opinions and unreachable solutions, especially among those not personally involved, fanatical religious zealots, extremists, and uneducated misdirected rebellious youths.

No country in the "Western" world ( right or wrong ) would put up with what Israel has dealt with for so many years...

Any other entity especially or of the Muslim world, would have taken a rake to the area long ago. Not allowing the opportunity for anyone to utter a squeak.

Other middle east Muslim countries would have bombed, poisoned, beheaded their own populace, let alone another from different house (Shiite/Sunni) as evident with what's happened in Syria, Iraq, Libya, Egypt.

It is of "Political" convenience, resentment, fanatical religious intolerance and pure hate against the Jewish populace that continues.

The problem for Israel is that it pretends to be an enlightened democratic country, and there are many Israelis who are indeed enlightened and humane, even though the whole state is based on the racist supremacist principle of Zionism. You apparently would prefer it to be more like other more repressive regimes in the Middle East.

The trouble is there are more in the current Israeli cabinet who think like you. Iron fist, oppression. let's se some blood spilt. That'll teach em.

You can't have it both ways if you want to be accepted as a modern civilized democracy..

"even though the whole state is based on the racist supremacist principle of Zionism. You apparently would prefer it to be more like other more repressive regimes in the Middle East.

The trouble is there are more in the current Israeli cabinet who think like you."

No offence intended, but you are being presumptuous...

Ideology is great with abundant civility - that's not the case in the "Middle East"

Extremism is the mode op - Ideology out the window. "Iron fist, oppression. let's see some blood spilt. That'll teach em." - Historically has proven effective...

Your statement "You apparently would prefer it to be more like other more repressive regimes in the Middle East." are out of context.

As per your quote, If Israel was more like other more repressive regimes in the Middle East all this would be mute!!!

There would not be a problem per say - look no further then Syria.

You'd have 250 thousand dead and an additional 4.5 mil as you stated visiting their fellow Muslim neighbors and of course Europe...

Israel like other more repressive regimes? Are you actually looking at the words you type? Please...

[ZeldasCavern]

No point of trying to find "Reasoning" or solace in an unreasonable situation.

Too many with different opinions and unreachable solutions, especially among those not personally involved, fanatical religious zealots, extremists, and uneducated misdirected rebellious youths.

No country in the "Western" world ( right or wrong ) would put up with what Israel has dealt with for so many years...

Any other entity especially or of the Muslim world, would have taken a rake to the area long ago. Not allowing the opportunity for anyone to utter a squeak.

Other middle east Muslim countries would have bombed, poisoned, beheaded their own populace, let alone another from different house (Shiite/Sunni) as evident with what's happened in Syria, Iraq, Libya, Egypt.

It is of "Political" convenience, resentment, fanatical religious intolerance and pure hate against the Jewish populace that continues.

The problem for Israel is that it pretends to be an enlightened democratic country, and there are many Israelis who are indeed enlightened and humane, even though the whole state is based on the racist supremacist principle of Zionism. You apparently would prefer it to be more like other more repressive regimes in the Middle East.

The trouble is there are more in the current Israeli cabinet who think like you. Iron fist, oppression. let's see some blood spilt. That'll teach em.

You can't have it both ways if you want to be accepted as a modern civilized democracy..

" even though the whole state is based on the racist supremacist principle of Zionism. You apparently would prefer it to be more like other more repressive regimes in the Middle East.

The trouble is there are more in the current Israeli cabinet who think like you. Iron fist, oppression. let's see some blood spilt. That'll teach em."

No disrespect, but you are being presumptuous...

Ideology, civility and "modern civilized democracy" are grand theories of writing, non existent in the radical extremism of the Middle East.

You stated "Iron fist, oppression. let's see some blood spilt. That'll teach em." May actually & Historically been more successful.

You compare Israel to "more like other more repressive regimes in the Middle East"? You must mean like Syria, Libya, Iraq, Iran and Egypt?

If that were the case you'd have 250,000 dead and an additional 4.5 Mil visiting their Muslim neighbors and Europe as well...

Do you even read what you type? You compare Israel to more repressive regimes in the Middle East? Please...!!!

Edited October 6, 2015 by ZeldasCavern

[dexterm]

Sorry thread full,

to Zeldascavern

Please do no edit my sentences to quote words out of context and alter their meaning. I wrote

"You apparently would prefer it to be more like other more repressive regimes in the Middle East."

[Johpa]

It's all very well cheerleading the murder of teenagers, and Israelis sating their blood lust.

Oh my, shades of Mendal Beilis. Better hide before Passover. Or at least hide your overt antisemitism a bit better so that your often correct criticisms of Israeli actions can be taken with some seriousness.

[arunsakda]

It is true and unfair that in 2015 that one simply cannot make ANY public critique of Israeli policy without soon being labeled an antisemite. This goes from the official propaganda from the likes of Mark Regev to casual conversations among jews who always fall back on the intellectually dishonest evasive argument that one is “self-loathing”. Otherwise intelligent compassionate people whose families have been secure in America for generations convinced somehow (almost metaphysically) that in order to continue to be "free" Palestinians must suffer every kind of atrocity indefinitely.

A critique of a State actor can be valid only if it is rational. Antisemitism is irrational. I admit many of who criticize Israel come from a background of hate, and I have sometimes been disturbed when my comments have been” liked" by posters who clearly are bigots. Even if they occasionally state valid opinions antisemites are vile and I do not care to be associated with them.

Today I’ll just avoid pointless debate and simply state again that the ongoing tragedy suffered by the Palestinian Arab peoples is not in my name.

Edited October 8, 2015 by arunsakda

[Johpa]

It is true and unfair that in 2015 that one simply cannot make ANY public critique of Israeli policy without soon being labeled an antisemite.

Balderdash! There are countless public criticisms of Israeli policy made by many, including myself, that are not, or at least should not be labeled antisemitic. But when one moves from criticisms of Israeli policy to hate rhetoric like "sating their blood lust", a completely irrational statement that has nothing to do with Israeli policy, then the label of anti-Semite becomes appropriate.

[JingerBen]

It is true and unfair that in 2015 that one simply cannot make ANY public critique of Israeli policy without soon being labeled an antisemite.

Balderdash! There are countless public criticisms of Israeli policy made by many, including myself, that are not, or at least should not be labeled antisemitic. But when one moves from criticisms of Israeli policy to hate rhetoric like "sating their blood lust", a completely irrational statement that has nothing to do with Israeli policy, then the label of anti-Semite becomes appropriate.

If we can agree that 'balderdash' means nonsense, then your reply comes closer to that definition than arunsakda's self-evident observation.

[dexterm]

It's all very well cheerleading the murder of teenagers, and Israelis sating their blood lust.

Oh my, shades of Mendal Beilis. Better hide before Passover. Or at least hide your overt antisemitism a bit better so that your often correct criticisms of Israeli actions can be taken with some seriousness.

Your accusing me of anti semitism is outright inflammatory, and is against forum rules. There is not a single racist/religionist bone in my body. Please do not conflate criticism of Israel with anti semitism.

I suggest you Google images ...Israelis celebrate gaza bombs picnic..if you are wondering which elements of the electorate Netanyahu and his cabinet are currently pandering to.

He is sating a bloodlust amongst voters by ordering the use of live ammunition against stone throwers when so many non lethal aleternatives are available. What other possible explanation could there be for his decision.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.

[up-country_sinclair]

Hardly surprising that some of our esteemed members have moved to their default strategy of labeling anyone who opposes the occupiers murderous intent as "anti-Semitic".

It's worked as a distraction for decades, but it's not nearly as effective as it used to be.

[Johpa]

Hardly surprising that some of our esteemed members have moved to their default strategy of labeling anyone who opposes the occupiers murderous intent as "anti-Semitic".

It's worked as a distraction for decades, but it's not nearly as effective as it used to be.

No, I am not labeling just "anyone" who criticizes Israeli actions as antisemitic. I agree that Israeli actions are often overly violent in response to Palestinian actions. It is only when I see rhetorical hate speech such as "blood lust" that I feel a need to raise my voice to point out that centuries old distraction of antisemitism, perhaps the single systemic cause that led to the historical processes that led to the creation of the State of Israel. (History can be a bit anomalous at times, e.g., who could have foreseen a country, Australia, created as the result of the banishment of prisoners?) By the way, do you see Americans as having "murderous intent" in their actions in Afghanistan? Or how about neighboring Myanmar where the wars in the hills of Zomia continue against the Karenni and others? Or how about Chinese actions in Tibet or in the non-Han region of Xinjiang? You see, in all these other regions of the world where more powerful actors are reacting with an overuse of force against the weaker actors I do come across plenty of criticisms, but they lack the passion filled hate speech rhetoric that I commonly see in anti-Israel commentaries. And it is this larger landscape of political criticisms where I notice something different in the rhetoric used against Israel that is lacking in the criticisms of parallel situations.

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed. Please stay on topic. One suspension has been issued and others may follow.

[dexterm]

I apologize to anyone I may have offended by my use of the words blood lust. It was just my way of writing in describing the IDF killing of 2 teenagers in the OP. I sincerely did not even think about the negative connotations in Jewish history of the term. I certainly do not subscribe to that anti semitic old baloney.

So please put that one to rest. In future I will use other phrases to describe what I regard as the over zealous, sadistic, and unnecessary use of lethal force by the IDF.

Edited October 9, 2015 by dexterm