EU calls on Russia to end bombing campaign in Syria

[Chicog]

The obsession of the west with Assad is going to lead the whole region and the rest of the world down the toilet.

The 'rebels' are a rag-tag bunch with no clear leadership and varying ideologies, many of which encompass fundamental Islam and rather than using the weapons and funding provided by the US and various Gulf potentates to attack ISIL they are using them against Assads government forces.

The civil war that has been raging for some time now has given ISIL the space to expand operations and, should Assad fall, a huge empty space full of warring tribes to move into.

Lessons need to be learnt from the Iraq debacle and groupings need to come together to deal with the greater threat here which is ISIL as, should they gain control over Syria, the situation will deteriorate to a point where the current shenanigans will look like childs play with a big increase in the threat to Turkey (NATO), Israel, Iran or The Gulf States/Saudi Arabia (China's energy).

Just for info, it hasn't called itself "ISIL" for more than a year.

[retarius]

Is anyone on this forum actually aware that Assad is the UN approved head of state of Syria? Hs foreign minister was last week invited to speak to the UN general assembly. Under UN rules (international law) there are two circumstances under which a country may involve itself in military action in a sovereign state. One is if the is a security council mandate and the second is if the legitimate UN approved government (ie Assad) invites you in . Russia and Iran are in Syria legally. America, France, Jordan, UK are not. No wonder the UK government refused to publish the legal advice they had received from the Office of the Attorney General.

Personally I support the Russian initiative. The US, Nato, UK and EU have failed everywhere their grubby hands have gone...they failed in Iraq, they failed in Libya, they failed in Afghanistan, they failed in Ukraine, they failed the people of Greece...losers everywhere! Why would anyone trust anything they say?

[derator01]

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[Publicus]

Do you think it would be realistic to basically engineer this sort of regime change even if Russia and US could work together which is hardly a given. There are so many different groups fighting there that getting them to come together in some form of national unity would be a nightmare especially with ISIL knocking on the door.

It is also worth remembering where a lot of ISILs organisational abilities come from which is Saddam's old Ba'ath party - is there a danger of them gaining more support if Assad's Ba'ath Party lose control.

In my view, if Russia and Iran can bring some pressure to bear on Assad to stop acting like a monumental ****head for a bit he can be dealt with later after some stability is brought to the region which would need Russia, US and Iran working together.

The point exactly. Putin is out for himself which means supporting the mass murderer of his own people, Bashir Assad who makes his murdering father Hafassz look like an Alawite boy scout master. Putin is also pursuing the interests of the ayatollahs in Iran. Putin is wrong wrong wrong which is what I point out. My post said the US and Russia together, as awkward as that would be, could get the fighting factions from the field to the table in every sense of realpolitik especially if it meant blasting 'em to the table, which I'm confident Putin would relish doing as it would show the muscle he has between his ears. Any and every solution for Syria begins with Assad gone in one way or the other...preferably in the other. Send him to meet Saddam, Gaddafi, bin Laden, Mubarak and the rest of 'em.

Russia was invited by the Syrian government to help. Nato and the US were not invited.

What Syrian government

The Syrian government possesses about one-third of the land and about the same proportion of the population, most of which are dead or fleeing the Syrian government. The Syrian government for most of the year has more resembled the final dayze of the Third Reich. Put it out of business as the mass murderer of its own people and get the Syrian people out of their absolute misery. Kick in the focking door over there one way or the other, with Russia or without it.

I would disagree here as i see the bigger threat and priority being the destruction of ISIL. To tackle Assad first where there is no global consensus opens the door for ISIL which would potential expose Turkey to be under threat from both ISIL and Kurds and invoke a full military response from NATO and massive escalation.

This is about more than Turkey and the Kurds, much more. The long time hate killings between the two can never be minimised but neither can they be overstated especially in the current conflicts. The post grossly overstates the differences. Nato isn't going to engage in a "massive escalation" as the posts says. For one thing the Europeans rather insist differences be settled by throwing eggs followed by a pillow fight to determine the winner.

[NongKhaiKid]

No mention of the two rockets hitting the russian embassy today on TV or is that tomorrows news.

Today, Wed, Channel News Asia is covering it, I saw the headlines but by the time I got the sound sorted out they had moved on so I'll listen again at the top of the hour.

CNN are fixated on the Democrat debate and BBC's main story is the Dutch report on the downing of MH 17. Yahoo UK news has no mention.

This is a big deal surely especially when the finger pointing about responsibility starts.

[Harsh Jones]

Putin needed to begin the Russian military engagement in Syria in coordination and cooperation with the US instead of against it. The two needed instead to cooperate to force Assad to Iran or to some other such deserving rathole place.

Russia and the US need to together install a national government in Damascus to deal with all the groups fighting Assad. Either the rebel fighters sling their arms or Russia and the US pound 'em into the sands. This is power politics involving ruthless primal combatants so the approach has to dispense of most niceties.

Then get Syria regrouped and reorganized under a coalition government supervised by Russia, US, Nato, the Arab coalition that is working with the US. Such as group would have squabbles and disagreements because that is the nature of the beast, but Russia and the US can control them if the two work in tandem. Elections can come later.

Putin however would never think of such a thing nor would he accept it. He has to charge in bombs blasting while set on supporting Assad the mass murderer of his own people. This Putin is a nasty piece of work. Vile.

Do you think it would be realistic to basically engineer this sort of regime change even if Russia and US could work together which is hardly a given. There are so many different groups fighting there that getting them to come together in some form of national unity would be a nightmare especially with ISIL knocking on the door.

It is also worth remembering where a lot of ISILs organisational abilities come from which is Saddam's old Ba'ath party - is there a danger of them gaining more support if Assad's Ba'ath Party lose control.

In my view, if Russia and Iran can bring some pressure to bear on Assad to stop acting like a monumental ****head for a bit he can be dealt with later after some stability is brought to the region which would need Russia, US and Iran working together.

The point exactly. Putin is out for himself which means supporting the mass murderer of his own people, Bashir Assad who makes his murdering father Hafassz look like an Alawite boy scout master. Putin is also pursuing the interests of the ayatollahs in Iran. Putin is wrong wrong wrong which is what I point out. My post said the US and Russia together, as awkward as that would be, could get the fighting factions from the field to the table in every sense of realpolitik especially if it meant blasting 'em to the table, which I'm confident Putin would relish doing as it would show the muscle he has between his ears. Any and every solution for Syria begins with Assad gone in one way or the other...preferably in the other. Send him to meet Saddam, Gaddafi, bin Laden, Mubarak and the rest of 'em.

Russia was invited by the Syrian government to help. Nato and the US were not invited.

What Syrian government

The Syrian government possesses about one-third of the land and about the same proportion of the population, most of which are dead or fleeing the Syrian government. The Syrian government for most of the year has more resembled the final dayze of the Third Reich. Put it out of business as the mass murderer of its own people and get the Syrian people out of their absolute misery. Kick in the focking door over there one way or the other, with Russia or without it.

What Syrian govt ? The one with the seat at the UN general assembly last week.

[oncearugge]

Anyone who believes that removing Assad will result in a nice, cosy, democratic State is deluded.

Have a glance around the ME and Afghanistan for evidence of "democracy" being successfully implemented.

[craigt3365]

Anyone who believes that removing Assad will result in a nice, cosy, democratic State is deluded.

Have a glance around the ME and Afghanistan for evidence of "democracy" being successfully implemented.

I don't think I've ever read removing Assad would result in peace. But that's what the people there want, thus, the civil war. Maybe we should respect their opinions? It's their affairs after all.

It will be impossible to negotiate a peace settlement between Assad and all those who have relatives he's brutalized...or forced out of the country. Impossible.

[farmerjo]

Anyone who believes that removing Assad will result in a nice, cosy, democratic State is deluded.

Have a glance around the ME and Afghanistan for evidence of "democracy" being successfully implemented.

I don't think I've ever read removing Assad would result in peace. But that's what the people there want, thus, the civil war. Maybe we should respect their opinions? It's their affairs after all.

It will be impossible to negotiate a peace settlement between Assad and all those who have relatives he's brutalized...or forced out of the country. Impossible.

Yes,peace is along way off now.

I dont get carried away with the thought a Dictator is in control.

Dictator,Democracy pretty much the same.Just Democracy calls civil wars,riots.

Just my take on it and now i'll let you get back to some good debates from both sides and lots of educational links.Thankyou.

[craigt3365]

You don't get carried away with it because you are not living under the rule of a dictator. I'll take a marginal democratic nation any day over one ruled by a crazy dictator. I'm sure 99.9% of us here would do the same. Otherwise, I'm sure you could easily relocate to, say, North Korea. LOL. Sent with respect!

[farmerjo]

You don't get carried away with it because you are not living under the rule of a dictator. I'll take a marginal democratic nation any day over one ruled by a crazy dictator. I'm sure 99.9% of us here would do the same. Otherwise, I'm sure you could easily relocate to, say, North Korea. LOL. Sent with respect!

I live under one in Thailand.

I'll give North Korea a wide berth thanks.

Edited October 14, 2015 by farmerjo

[GeorgesAbitbol]

Then Why Europe is sponsoring with the USA the Al Nusra Movment, which said openly he is linked to Al Qaeda.

no new neither of the Al Nusra message which say every russian, civil or military should be killed, weherever they are in the world

[Harsh Jones]

Anyone who believes that removing Assad will result in a nice, cosy, democratic State is deluded.

Have a glance around the ME and Afghanistan for evidence of "democracy" being successfully implemented.

I don't think I've ever read removing Assad would result in peace. But that's what the people there want, thus, the civil war. Maybe we should respect their opinions? It's their affairs after all.

It will be impossible to negotiate a peace settlement between Assad and all those who have relatives he's brutalized...or forced out of the country. Impossible.

This is not a civil war per se. There is more forign fighters then Syrians. Either way, the US was in there way before the Russians. So should they not get the hell out of there ?

[Harsh Jones]

Then Why Europe is sponsoring with the USA the Al Nusra Movment, which said openly he is linked to Al Qaeda.

no new neither of the Al Nusra message which say every russian, civil or military should be killed, weherever they are in the world

The US policy is resulting in maximum death and destruction. They are selectively using ISIS against government forces. Then the plan is to fight ISIS after Assad falls. So the rebels vs ISIS war has not even started yet. Imagine that !

Russia on the other hand, just wants to preserve the internationally recognized govt and its institutions. There is only one war in the Russian strategy. Beat the Islamic terrorists, whether they are Nusra or ISIS and reestablish order.

[thaibeachlovers]

The EU has a vested interest in this situation, unless they want even more Syrians in Europe.

Exactly. And this new bombing campaign isn't helping...if Russia really wanted to help, they'd get Assad to stop the attacks on anti-government rebels and bring the various opposition parties to the table for negotiations. Then they could focus on the real enemy - ISIS.

Why on earth would Russia want to help out the EU? The immigrants aren't going to Russia so they don't care about that. As for the EU calling on Russia to do anything . If they cause too much fuss, Russia will just turn off the gas. The EU is powerless against Russia.

Russia is supporting Assad, not wanting to remove him.

[craigt3365]

Then Why Europe is sponsoring with the USA the Al Nusra Movment, which said openly he is linked to Al Qaeda.

no new neither of the Al Nusra message which say every russian, civil or military should be killed, weherever they are in the world

The US policy is resulting in maximum death and destruction. They are selectively using ISIS against government forces. Then the plan is to fight ISIS after Assad falls. So the rebels vs ISIS war has not even started yet. Imagine that !

Russia on the other hand, just wants to preserve the internationally recognized govt and its institutions. There is only one war in the Russian strategy. Beat the Islamic terrorists, whether they are Nusra or ISIS and reestablish order.

Russia could have done a lot of good by NOT bombing innocent civilians. They could have pressured Assad to negotiate. Easy, and many lives would have been saved by now if they did this years ago rather than selling weapons. But they took another path.

[Publicus]

Anyone who believes that removing Assad will result in a nice, cosy, democratic State is deluded.

Have a glance around the ME and Afghanistan for evidence of "democracy" being successfully implemented.

Don't know anyone who might think that about Syria, certainly not any realistic person.

For one thing 250,000 slaughtered Syrians won't vote and a few million who are refugees in other lands would be hard to set up for postal ballots. If there's still a Syrian postal system. A lot of people remaining in country are Assad people. Syria won't be a democracy in Assad's lifetime but then the way things are going that might not be such a long time either.

Btw if one has read my posts even casually one finds I said Assad out, a US-Russia-Arab-Nato compromise entity to run the country with democracy a later concern (much much later). First concern would be to get the rebels to the table. If the rebels might need to be blasted to the table, put Putin on it cause Vlad is always rushing out to show his muscle between his ears.

The only way to deal with the current Syria is by realpolitik. Kid gloves in handling the primal people who own Syria ain't gonna do it.

Putin should have entered the conflict in Syria with the United States, not against it. Putin supports a miserable mass murderer of his own people, as do the ayatollahs. I hope I didn't go off topic cause the thread is about Russia bombing Syria. And no one expects democracy out of Putin or Russia.

[Publicus]

Putin has no leverage over Europe and Putin is powerless against Europe.

The EU is a part of Nato and has severe long term economic sanctions against Russia.

EU has during the past two years signed energy contracts with governments of countries that are not strategic rivals or opponents of Europe the way Putin and Russia are, to include of course the United States. EU has meanwhile built an energy stockpile to ensure a full winter of uninterrupted energy availability independent of Russia.

Putin knows if he had ever shut off energy supplies to Europe he'd lose $1 billion a day. Putin never threatened it. Others outside of Russia who run at the mouth about Russian energy vis-a-vis Europe prattle on because they don't know the realities or the realpolitik of it, not to mention the economics.

[thaibeachlovers]

Putin has no leverage over Europe and Putin is powerless against Europe.

The EU is a part of Nato and has severe long term economic sanctions against Russia.

EU has during the past two years signed energy contracts with governments of countries that are not strategic rivals or opponents of Europe the way Putin and Russia are, to include of course the United States. EU has meanwhile built an energy stockpile to ensure a full winter of uninterrupted energy availability independent of Russia.

Putin knows if he had ever shut off energy supplies to Europe he'd lose $1 billion a day. Putin never threatened it. Others outside of Russia who run at the mouth about Russian energy vis-a-vis Europe prattle on because they don't know the realities or the realpolitik of it, not to mention the economics.

So what about the winter after this one? Importing energy from farther away will obviously increase prices.

Russia can sell all its gas to China if they build a pipeline ( I think they are already doing that ).

[thaibeachlovers]

Anyone who believes that removing Assad will result in a nice, cosy, democratic State is deluded.

Have a glance around the ME and Afghanistan for evidence of "democracy" being successfully implemented.

Don't know anyone who might think that about Syria, certainly not any realistic person.

For one thing 250,000 slaughtered Syrians won't vote and a few million who are refugees in other lands would be hard to set up for postal ballots. If there's still a Syrian postal system. A lot of people remaining in country are Assad people. Syria won't be a democracy in Assad's lifetime but then the way things are going that might not be such a long time either.

Btw if one has read my posts even casually one finds I said Assad out, a US-Russia-Arab-Nato compromise entity to run the country with democracy a later concern (much much later). First concern would be to get the rebels to the table. If the rebels might need to be blasted to the table, put Putin on it cause Vlad is always rushing out to show his muscle between his ears.

The only way to deal with the current Syria is by realpolitik. Kid gloves in handling the primal people who own Syria ain't gonna do it.

Putin should have entered the conflict in Syria with the United States, not against it. Putin supports a miserable mass murderer of his own people, as do the ayatollahs. I hope I didn't go off topic cause the thread is about Russia bombing Syria. And no one expects democracy out of Putin or Russia.

a US-Russia-Arab-Nato compromise entity to run the country

Iran will run Syria after the fighting stops.

NATO won't get involved because hopefully they ( countries other than the US ) have too much sense to get involved in the inevitable FUBAR. They didn't try to run Libya, so why would they try to run Syria?

[Publicus]

Putin has no leverage over Europe and Putin is powerless against Europe.

The EU is a part of Nato and has severe long term economic sanctions against Russia.

EU has during the past two years signed energy contracts with governments of countries that are not strategic rivals or opponents of Europe the way Putin and Russia are, to include of course the United States. EU has meanwhile built an energy stockpile to ensure a full winter of uninterrupted energy availability independent of Russia.

Putin knows if he had ever shut off energy supplies to Europe he'd lose $1 billion a day. Putin never threatened it. Others outside of Russia who run at the mouth about Russian energy vis-a-vis Europe prattle on because they don't know the realities or the realpolitik of it, not to mention the economics.

So what about the winter after this one? Importing energy from farther away will obviously increase prices.

Russia can sell all its gas to China if they build a pipeline ( I think they are already doing that ).

Get used to the fact Putin himself hasn't ever spoken about stopping or reducing the flow of energy from Russia to Europe. That concocted notion is the creation of Putin fanboyz in their own wet dreams of defeating the West in favor of a NWO run by Russia and the CCP China.

Construction of the infrastructure to support the energy deals between Russia and the CCP Dictators in Beijing is stalled, as is the $25 billion advance the Beijing Dictators agreed to provide Russia. The Chinese had anyway scalped Putin on prices because Putin has lost his market in Europe given the new energy contracts the EU has signed with governments of countries that are not strategic competitors of EU or political-military adversaries of the Nato countries.

With the increasing decline in the economy of the CCP China Putin won't see the $25 billion advance from the CCP Dictators nor would he see any benefit to the deals until Beijing turns its economy around, i.e., when Putin himself is an old really old, old guy.

As to Putin in Syria, here is from the Jamestown Foundation whose specialists focus on global strategic issues, speaking of Putin's follies in all the respects noted in the thread and then some:

This distorted worldview, in which geopolitical fantasies are indistinguishable from psychological idiosyncrasies, propels Putin along the path of covering one mistake with another blunder. He appears uninformed about the structural ills of Russia’s declining economy and seeks to eliminate the population’s deepening discontent with a “patriotic” mobilization; this propaganda-driven pseudo-unity is centered on defying US global dominance, but it leaves no clear options for how to move from this aggressive-defensive stance to lifting the sanctions. The diplomatic maneuver from Ukraine to Syria and back might appear cleverly constructed, but in fact, Russia remains stuck with the useless occupation of Donbas—and is now trapped in a looming Syrian disaster. Putin may imagine that he forced the arrogant West to treat him as an indispensable partner, but Obama, Merkel and Hollande have only recognized his readiness to expose Russia to great risks for fictitious gains.

http://www.jamestown.org/regions/russia/single/?tx_ttnews%5Bpointer%5D=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=44454&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=48&cHash=d317a36cf7d8e0ef8e75aa12661b9585#.ViBz2_cdD5M

[Publicus]

Anyone who believes that removing Assad will result in a nice, cosy, democratic State is deluded.

Have a glance around the ME and Afghanistan for evidence of "democracy" being successfully implemented.

Don't know anyone who might think that about Syria, certainly not any realistic person.

For one thing 250,000 slaughtered Syrians won't vote and a few million who are refugees in other lands would be hard to set up for postal ballots. If there's still a Syrian postal system. A lot of people remaining in country are Assad people. Syria won't be a democracy in Assad's lifetime but then the way things are going that might not be such a long time either.

Btw if one has read my posts even casually one finds I said Assad out, a US-Russia-Arab-Nato compromise entity to run the country with democracy a later concern (much much later). First concern would be to get the rebels to the table. If the rebels might need to be blasted to the table, put Putin on it cause Vlad is always rushing out to show his muscle between his ears.

The only way to deal with the current Syria is by realpolitik. Kid gloves in handling the primal people who own Syria ain't gonna do it.

Putin should have entered the conflict in Syria with the United States, not against it. Putin supports a miserable mass murderer of his own people, as do the ayatollahs. I hope I didn't go off topic cause the thread is about Russia bombing Syria. And no one expects democracy out of Putin or Russia.

a US-Russia-Arab-Nato compromise entity to run the country

Iran will run Syria after the fighting stops.

NATO won't get involved because hopefully they ( countries other than the US ) have too much sense to get involved in the inevitable FUBAR. They didn't try to run Libya, so why would they try to run Syria?

You misread or misunderstood my post.

Putin needed to agree to such a provisional government entity rather than to come barging in with his own military force to further create the current FUBAR that will continue going forward.

The post does not talk about after Putin wins doing what he entered Syria to do which is to create his own war for his own country, Russia the Mother. The post talks about what the little guy should have done upon entering the existing war that needed no help to keep going or to become a radically new FUBAR with Putin's name and fingerprints all over it.

The post addressed little Vlad's new war retrospectively, from its planning and first execution. Because despite the frozen war in Ukraine Putin continues in the doctrine that he can kill his way to victory as he defines it, which means to appear on the balcony hand in hand with the mass murderer Bashir Assad.

[Chicog]

Putin has no leverage over Europe and Putin is powerless against Europe.

The EU is a part of Nato and has severe long term economic sanctions against Russia.

EU has during the past two years signed energy contracts with governments of countries that are not strategic rivals or opponents of Europe the way Putin and Russia are, to include of course the United States. EU has meanwhile built an energy stockpile to ensure a full winter of uninterrupted energy availability independent of Russia.

Putin knows if he had ever shut off energy supplies to Europe he'd lose $1 billion a day. Putin never threatened it. Others outside of Russia who run at the mouth about Russian energy vis-a-vis Europe prattle on because they don't know the realities or the realpolitik of it, not to mention the economics.

So what about the winter after this one? Importing energy from farther away will obviously increase prices.

Russia can sell all its gas to China if they build a pipeline ( I think they are already doing that ).

China doesn't need to buy gas from Russia.

It's getting it at knock-down rates from Iran, as one of the few countries allowed to circumvent the sanctions.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Chicog