Oil Change

[Thailaw]

I have a Honda CTX 700n that is just over 1 year old and has 4,000 km on the clock. The 1,000 km oil change was done by Honda Big Wing just about 1 year ago and the next manufacturer suggested oil change is at 12,000 km. This seems too long, especially given that it has been 1 year since the last oil change. An oil change at Big Wing is B3,300, which includes (I think) the two filters. I stopped in at Big Wing last week and asked about an oil change at 1 year and only 4,000 km, and the lady just pointed to the chart that showed the next oil change at 12,000 km, and when I told her that it had been 1 year since the last oil change, she replied "no problem". My 2013 Honda Forza has 5,000 km on it and has had 3 oil changes already and will have another 1 next month.

The oil in the CTX now is (best I can tell) Honda synthetic oil. I am thinking about changing the oil now with non-synthetic Castrol, leaving in the filter, and doing a full oil and filter change at Big Wing at around 10,000 km, probably 1 year from now. The English version of the Owner's manual recommends API Service classification SG or higher, not "Energy saving" or "Resource Saving", SAE 10W-30, JASO T 903 standard MA. The labels on the Castrol oil bottles are written in Thai and I do not see any of the designations mentioned, except that the SAE is 20W-40, which for Thailand is probably better. The front label on the Castrol oil bottles do have a small image of a motorcycle, so I expect that they are not "Energy Saving" or "Resource Saving", and do not contain molybdenum, which I understand is a problem with a "wet clutch". Can anyone tell me (1) how long (in time) synthetic oil remains good (it seems to me that at a minimum changing the oil every one year or sooner is necessary regardless of it being synthetic, although I cannot find any discussion of time vs. distance oil change requirements on the net); (2) any reason to stick with synthetic oil, given the number of km's that the bike travels in a year (I expect that I am paying about B700/lt for synthetic oil at Honda); and (3) are any of the good 4-cycle motorcycle oils ok to use, and is there anything to look for on the label to be sure that it meets the manufacturer's recommendations (i.e., is the image of a motorcycle enough to go on)?

Thanks for any help.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Thailaw

[ClutchClark]

My experience is:

1) changing the oil annually is a good practice even if the miles are not achieved.

2) Synthetic is better than Dino ( dinosaur) oil at this point in your engine life (although my 2nd oil change would not have been synthetic).

3) stick with the big names and you are golden (Castrol, MobilOne, etc).

4) You are correct in making sure the oil is rated compatible for a bike.

Do the oil changes yourself ! ;-)

I would not trust anyone to turn a wrench on anything I own in Thsiland...except Transam ;-)

[Thailaw]

My experience is:

1) changing the oil annually is a good practice even if the miles are not achieved.

2) Synthetic is better than Dino ( dinosaur) oil at this point in your engine life (although my 2nd oil change would not have been synthetic).

3) stick with the big names and you are golden (Castrol, MobilOne, etc).

4) You are correct in making sure the oil is rated compatible for a bike.

Do the oil changes yourself ! ;-)

I would not trust anyone to turn a wrench on anything I own in Thsiland...except Transam ;-)

Thanks for the reply -- ok, we agree on (1) and (3); this is my 2nd oil change, and the reason against synthetic is that the bike doesn't get hard use and the oil will be changed again in about 4,000km (assuming that the present use continues), hard to justify paying B700/lt under those conditions.

But with the label all in Thai, how does one ensure that the oil complies with mfgr. recommendations, especially the non "Energy Saving" or "Resource Saving", how do I tell???

Does anyone know if K&N oil filters for bikes are available in Thailand?

[ClutchClark]

My experience is:

1) changing the oil annually is a good practice even if the miles are not achieved.

2) Synthetic is better than Dino ( dinosaur) oil at this point in your engine life (although my 2nd oil change would not have been synthetic).

3) stick with the big names and you are golden (Castrol, MobilOne, etc).

4) You are correct in making sure the oil is rated compatible for a bike.

Do the oil changes yourself ! ;-)

I would not trust anyone to turn a wrench on anything I own in Thsiland...except Transam ;-)

Thanks for the reply -- ok, we agree on (1) and (3); this is my 2nd oil change, and the reason against synthetic is that the bike doesn't get hard use and the oil will be changed again in about 4,000km (assuming that the present use continues), hard to justify paying B700/lt under those conditions.

But with the label all in Thai, how does one ensure that the oil complies with mfgr. recommendations, especially the non "Energy Saving" or "Resource Saving", how do I tell???

Does anyone know if K&N oil filters for bikes are available in Thailand?

Most of the real advancements in oil today including additives are with synthetics.

Synthetics are simply better oils regsrdless of how many miles/kms are traveled between oil changes.

I am a pretty active member and follower of "BobIsTheOilGuy" in the US as well as a few moto specific forums and I have much experience sending oil samples into Blackstone for analysis and this is a general concensus. Is it worth 700 Baht more? That is a personal decision most certainly.

In the US, energy saving oils are those with very light viscosity ratings such as 0/20 or 5/20. I don't recall ever seeing a starburst on an oil with 20-weight viscosity.

Surprisingly, many of the manufacturer's oil filters are actually of good quality IF you cannot find K&N.

Just please stay far away from a K&N air filter ;-)

Good luck.

Edited October 28, 2015 by ClutchClark

[papa al]

If oil is syn, keep it and just change filters.

I am not kidding.

In USA, over-the-road big rig trucks never change syn oil, only filters.

Edited October 28, 2015 by papa al

[kannot]

My experience is:

1) changing the oil annually is a good practice even if the miles are not achieved.

2) Synthetic is better than Dino ( dinosaur) oil at this point in your engine life (although my 2nd oil change would not have been synthetic).

3) stick with the big names and you are golden (Castrol, MobilOne, etc).

4) You are correct in making sure the oil is rated compatible for a bike.

Do the oil changes yourself ! ;-)

I would not trust anyone to turn a wrench on anything I own in Thsiland...except Transam ;-)

Thanks for the reply -- ok, we agree on (1) and (3); this is my 2nd oil change, and the reason against synthetic is that the bike doesn't get hard use and the oil will be changed again in about 4,000km (assuming that the present use continues), hard to justify paying B700/lt under those conditions.

But with the label all in Thai, how does one ensure that the oil complies with mfgr. recommendations, especially the non "Energy Saving" or "Resource Saving", how do I tell???

Does anyone know if K&N oil filters for bikes are available in Thailand?

Go to the Honda dealer and just buy the oil off them direct it doesnt have to be BIGWING you buy the oil from, I got mine at the local Honda "small" bike place HONDAS OWN oil synthetic or normal you choose... I used the synthetic it was'nt 700 baht a litre more like 3-400 but I might be wrong memory aint so good, mind wanders, so just add two eggs then whisk for an hour at gas mark 6.serves four

Edited October 28, 2015 by kannot

[ClutchClark]

Does your bike have the Dual Clutch Transmission? Essentially an automatic transmission?

The DCT version has the second oil filter.

Edited October 28, 2015 by ClutchClark

[Thailaw]

If oil is syn, keep it and just change filters.

I am not kidding.

In USA, over-the-road big rig trucks never change syn oil, only filters.

I think that your post is completely wrong. And, at the very least it has little application to motorcycles. If a truck is burning oil at a very rapid rate, then changing oil (even synthetic oil) at specified intervals may be less important. And, If the hauler is using a detailed oil analysis program, which can make sense given the maintenance costs involved for a fleet of trucks, it can extend its oil change intervals significantly. But for us, none of this is worth the time and effort, and adhering to the manufacturer's schedule (if nothing more than to maintain the warranty) is the best course. Until I got the CTX, I changed the oil and filter on my bikes every 1000 km, because of the very small cost and added protection. At B3,300 a pop, they will be done less frequently, but certainly before the manufacturer requires (or once a year, which ever comes first).

I hope that you are kidding, and if you are not, you should be.

[Thailaw]

Does your bike have the Dual Clutch Transmission? Essentially an automatic transmission?

No, no DCT, but the oil lubricates both the crankcase and the transmission, with a "wet clutch".

[Thailaw]

My experience is:

1) changing the oil annually is a good practice even if the miles are not achieved.

2) Synthetic is better than Dino ( dinosaur) oil at this point in your engine life (although my 2nd oil change would not have been synthetic).

3) stick with the big names and you are golden (Castrol, MobilOne, etc).

4) You are correct in making sure the oil is rated compatible for a bike.

Do the oil changes yourself ! ;-)

I would not trust anyone to turn a wrench on anything I own in Thsiland...except Transam ;-)

Thanks for the reply -- ok, we agree on (1) and (3); this is my 2nd oil change, and the reason against synthetic is that the bike doesn't get hard use and the oil will be changed again in about 4,000km (assuming that the present use continues), hard to justify paying B700/lt under those conditions.

But with the label all in Thai, how does one ensure that the oil complies with mfgr. recommendations, especially the non "Energy Saving" or "Resource Saving", how do I tell???

Does anyone know if K&N oil filters for bikes are available in Thailand?

Go to the Honda dealer and just buy the oil off them direct it doesnt have to be BIGWING you buy the oil from, I got mine at the local Honda "small" bike place HONDAS OWN oil synthetic or normal you choose... I used the synthetic it was'nt 700 baht a litre more like 3-400 but I might be wrong memory aint so good, mind wanders, so just add two eggs then whisk for an hour at gas mark 6.serves four

Good idea. Thanks. I'll check with the Honda dealer where I used to have my PCXs' oil changed and see what they have.

[ClutchClark]

Does your bike have the Dual Clutch Transmission? Essentially an automatic transmission?

No, no DCT, but the oil lubricates both the crankcase and the transmission, with a "wet clutch".

Wet clutches are kind of funny and will behave differently with different oils ( even if from the same manufacturer). I found Motul 5100 to work best in my Hondas. Most guys will agree that shifting is smoother with a full synthetic.

The Honda oil will be a good oil but its usually more expensive than a better quality Motul or Castrol from my experience.

I forgot to mention that the "energy conserving" label you mentioned is bad for the reason it contains extra additives for lubrication that do not interact well with a wet clutch but I am guessing you knew that since you also knew to avoid Moly additive.

I have not ridden in a few years but back then the Honda Synthetics were rumored to be made by MobilOne. I don't know if that is still true.

Do you belong to a Honda forum? Its a good idea even if you just lurk. I belonged to a GoldWing forum and they were mostly older guys who really researched everything quite in depth and even helped guys with other bikes.

BTW, sure glad to hear you don't have the DCT.

Cheers

Edited October 28, 2015 by ClutchClark

[Thailaw]

Does your bike have the Dual Clutch Transmission? Essentially an automatic transmission?

No, no DCT, but the oil lubricates both the crankcase and the transmission, with a "wet clutch".

Wet clutches are kind of funny and will behave differently with different oils ( even if from the same manufacturer). I found Motul 5100 to work best in my Hondas. Most guys will agree that shifting is smoother with a full synthetic.

The Honda oil will be a good oil but its usually more expensive than a better quality Motul or Castrol from my experience.

I forgot to mention that the "energy conserving" label you mentioned is bad for the reason it contains extra additives for lubrication that do not interact well with a wet clutch but I am guessing you knew that since you also knew to avoid Moly additive.

I have not ridden in a few years but back then the Honda Synthetics were rumored to be made by MobilOne. I don't know if that is still true.

Do you belong to a Honda forum? Its a good idea even if you just lurk. I belonged to a GoldWing forum and they were mostly older guys who really researched everything quite in depth and even helped guys with other bikes.

BTW, sure glad to hear you don't have the DCT.

Cheers

Thanks. A lot of helpful information in your post. I like the CTX, but shifting is one area in which I am less than pleased. So, I will follow your advice and stick with synthetic and try to find the Motul 5100. The Owner's manual specifically recommends against Energy Saving and Resource Saving oils, but I also knew that Molybdenum was to be avoided in oils (I thought that "Energy Saving" and including Molybdenum were the same thing, but it may be more complicated than that) as it makes the oil thinner and more slippery and can cause a problem with the clutch. I had also read sometime back that Honda synthetic oils were made by Mobil, but that may have changed, and they may be sourced differently outside the US.

K&M will ship any order of $50 or more free to Thailand using FedEx 3 business day service, which is 4 $15.00 oil filters for the CTX. They are also available from Taiwan on ebay at almost the same price, but they use economy international airmail, which I am told will avoid customs duties. So, if they aren't available locally, there are some good internet options.

[macknife]

I'm pretty sure your bike will be fine. Synthetic oil will not start breaking down after one year. It's synthetic ie long lasting, it simply does not need changing as often as normal oil.

If you're really worried then google Honda CTX forums and ask there.

Here i did it for you:

Home page http://www.ctx700forum.com/

Here they discuss exactly what you're talking about

http://www.ctx700forum.com/forum/ctx700-general-discussion-forum/18721-synthetic-oil-2-000-miles.html

[ktm jeff]

Although the fully synthetic oil will still be OK after 3,000 Km , it is a year old , and will be contaminated , mainly with water from condensation. Fully S is only a couple of hundred Baht dearer than Semi S. I think its nicer if you plan to keep the bike to change once per year , with Fully S. Motul is a favourite , or Shell.

[Thailaw]

I'm pretty sure your bike will be fine. Synthetic oil will not start breaking down after one year. It's synthetic ie long lasting, it simply does not need changing as often as normal oil.

If you're really worried then google Honda CTX forums and ask there.

Here i did it for you:

Home page http://www.ctx700forum.com/

Here they discuss exactly what you're talking about

http://www.ctx700forum.com/forum/ctx700-general-discussion-forum/18721-synthetic-oil-2-000-miles.html

Thanks for the post. I belong to that forum and read the thread that you copied before I posted here. But, I really don't see in that thread the issues that I raised or the questions that I asked, especially about how to tell if the required specifications are being met when the label is all in Thai. Nor can I see anything in that thread or could I find elsewhere on the internet on how long (in time rather than distance) synthetic oil remains useful/protective/functional, but it does seem that, given the lack of attention to the time issue, time of use may not be as serious an issue for synthetic oil as it is for conventional oil. And perhaps the lady at Big Wing was more knowledgeable than she appeared. But most bike owners using synthetic oil still say that they will change the oil at 1 year and a few even say that they will change the oil at 6 months. My plan now, thanks to ClutchClark's posts is to change the oil (and maybe the filter also) using synthetic oil now (Motul if I can find it) and do a full oil/filter change at Big Wing at 10,000 km or 1 year from now, which ever comes first. The change requires 3.2 liters of oil, so if I can do the oil change using synthetic oil and a new filter for about B1,000 - B1,500, I will be well satisfied. Thanks, again.

[Thailaw]

Although the fully synthetic oil will still be OK after 3,000 Km , it is a year old , and will be contaminated , mainly with water from condensation. Fully S is only a couple of hundred Baht dearer than Semi S. I think its nicer if you plan to keep the bike to change once per year , with Fully S. Motul is a favourite , or Shell.

Very helpful post, thanks.

[ktm jeff]

Oils that have a bike picture and / or the JASO ( MA ) logo on the rear are made for wet clutches. Motul 5100 is technosynthese oil ( molecular cracked ) which sits between S S and F S. Motul7100 is F S. Go for the 10W 40.

[Thailaw]

Oils that have a bike picture and / or the JASO ( MA ) logo on the rear are made for wet clutches. Motul 5100 is technosynthese oil ( molecular cracked ) which sits between S S and F S. Motul7100 is F S. Go for the 10W 40.

Got it! Thanks a lot!

[ClutchClark]

Oils that have a bike picture and / or the JASO ( MA ) logo on the rear are made for wet clutches. Motul 5100 is technosynthese oil ( molecular cracked ) which sits between S S and F S. Motul7100 is F S. Go for the 10W 40.

Dang. Thanks Jeff. I bet when I get home its 7100 that I have collecting dust in my shop ;-)

[ktm jeff]

No problem. The Motul 5100 is a very good S S oil that will be more than suitable for most bikes when changed once per year. The 7100 is F S ( 100% ) , whilst the 300 V "Factory" oil ( 100% F S ) has double the amount of Ester long chain molecules Ive seen the 5W 30 version of this oil for over 2,500 Baht PER LITRE !.

[RidgeRunner]

Does your bike have the Dual Clutch Transmission? Essentially an automatic transmission?

No, no DCT, but the oil lubricates both the crankcase and the transmission, with a "wet clutch".

Wet clutches are kind of funny and will behave differently with different oils ( even if from the same manufacturer). I found Motul 5100 to work best in my Hondas. Most guys will agree that shifting is smoother with a full synthetic.

The Honda oil will be a good oil but its usually more expensive than a better quality Motul or Castrol from my experience.

I forgot to mention that the "energy conserving" label you mentioned is bad for the reason it contains extra additives for lubrication that do not interact well with a wet clutch but I am guessing you knew that since you also knew to avoid Moly additive.

I have not ridden in a few years but back then the Honda Synthetics were rumored to be made by MobilOne. I don't know if that is still true.

Do you belong to a Honda forum? Its a good idea even if you just lurk. I belonged to a GoldWing forum and they were mostly older guys who really researched everything quite in depth and even helped guys with other bikes.

BTW, sure glad to hear you don't have the DCT.

Cheers

Thanks. A lot of helpful information in your post. I like the CTX, but shifting is one area in which I am less than pleased. So, I will follow your advice and stick with synthetic and try to find the Motul 5100. The Owner's manual specifically recommends against Energy Saving and Resource Saving oils, but I also knew that Molybdenum was to be avoided in oils (I thought that "Energy Saving" and including Molybdenum were the same thing, but it may be more complicated than that) as it makes the oil thinner and more slippery and can cause a problem with the clutch. I had also read sometime back that Honda synthetic oils were made by Mobil, but that may have changed, and they may be sourced differently outside the US.

K&M will ship any order of $50 or more free to Thailand using FedEx 3 business day service, which is 4 $15.00 oil filters for the CTX. They are also available from Taiwan on ebay at almost the same price, but they use economy international airmail, which I am told will avoid customs duties. So, if they aren't available locally, there are some good internet options.

I use the Honda brand Moly-MB oil in my automatic scooter. (Wet clutches will use the Honda MA oil.)

The MB fills in the microscopic pores in the metals so you have MB rubbing against MB on the crank, cam etc.

After 2 years, I'm getting better mileage.

By the way, I recommend dumping the factory oil after just 100 kilometres because I think most engine break-in occurs in the first hour or two of use.

Then I double the intervals by changing the oil in-between recommended services.

Always take it in to Honda for the recommended oil service so they stamp the book.

[papa al]

If changing oil more frequently that Honda recommends gives you a warm and fizzy feeling, go for it.

As far as needing to change because of water contamination,

remember HOH evaporates at 100 degrees C and phfffft, gone.

[RidgeRunner]

If changing oil more frequently that Honda recommends gives you a warm and fizzy feeling, go for it.

As far as needing to change because of water contamination,

remember HOH evaporates at 100 degrees C and phfffft, gone.

The Honda engineers would push for more frequent oil changes but the Honda marketing guys want to push out the intervals as far as possible. No?

[Thailaw]

If changing oil more frequently that Honda recommends gives you a warm and fizzy feeling, go for it.

As far as needing to change because of water contamination,

remember HOH evaporates at 100 degrees C and phfffft, gone.

The Honda engineers would push for more frequent oil changes but the Honda marketing guys want to push out the intervals as far as possible. No?

Is there really a "marketing" aspect to oil changing intervals? Does anyone consider the mileage/time between oil changes when considering what bike to buy? I don't think so. I have never seen any market materials for any bike that highlights (or even mentions) the interval between oil changes. The distance traveled intervals between oil changes has been increasing steadily for the past 10 years, but that is true for all cars and bikes and no one has a competitive advantage to promote/exploit. And it really is, I think, more of a price/cost issue than a frequency issue. On the small scooters, oil changes are too cheap for anyone to get excited about fewer oil changes because the manufacturer recommended intervals have been increased. And most Thais do not, I think, do maintenance at the required intervals in any event -- do they care? But if anyone considered the price of maintenance and spare parts on a CTX, it might affect their buying decision. Technology rules, I think, in the oil change arena, as it should. Where changing the oil is cheap (less than B200 for a Honda PCX, for example), changing the oil more often than recommended may help keep the bike running better longer, and it certainly can't hurt. But, where the oil change costs B3,300, you certainly aren't going to change the oil as frequently as you would with a PCX, even where you are inclined to do more frequent oil changes. Hence, manufacturer recommended intervals for changing oil become a bigger part of the consideration/decision.

[Thailaw]

My experience is:

1) changing the oil annually is a good practice even if the miles are not achieved.

2) Synthetic is better than Dino ( dinosaur) oil at this point in your engine life (although my 2nd oil change would not have been synthetic).

3) stick with the big names and you are golden (Castrol, MobilOne, etc).

4) You are correct in making sure the oil is rated compatible for a bike.

Do the oil changes yourself ! ;-)

I would not trust anyone to turn a wrench on anything I own in Thsiland...except Transam ;-)

....................

Got some time to turn an oil filter wrench? If ClutchClark trusts you, that's good enough for me.....

[papa al]

Honda MB oil,etc.

After 2 years, I'm getting better mileage.

******************

By the way, I recommend dumping the factory oil after just 100 kilometres because I think most engine break-in occurs in the first hour or two of use.

*******************

Then I double the intervals by changing the oil in-between recommended services..double or halve the intervals, 55.

********

Yes.

papa likes to run a new engine about an hour then change oil.

Also put small niobium magnet on drain plug.

Mechs get a kick out of that, 5 5.

Thanks for the info on Honda moly MB.

Maybe try that in Nouvo next change.

Edited October 29, 2015 by papa al

[kannot]

My experience is:

1) changing the oil annually is a good practice even if the miles are not achieved.

2) Synthetic is better than Dino ( dinosaur) oil at this point in your engine life (although my 2nd oil change would not have been synthetic).

3) stick with the big names and you are golden (Castrol, MobilOne, etc).

4) You are correct in making sure the oil is rated compatible for a bike.

Do the oil changes yourself ! ;-)

I would not trust anyone to turn a wrench on anything I own in Thsiland...except Transam ;-)

....................

When he's sober obviously